AVS/AIX High-Resolution Audio Test: The Results So Far - Page 8 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 08-06-2014, 05:14 PM
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Nope. Haven't been for quite some time.
No pie for you, Sarge. But, Gomer has joined the Marines and needs someone to pump gas while he completes his hitch.
It'a safe to assume that you will be taking his place at the filling station then no ?

Just finished a slice of aunt bees pie it was yummie !

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
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Old 08-06-2014, 05:41 PM
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Just finished a slice of aunt bees pie it was yummie !
Oh Andy!
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Old 08-06-2014, 06:06 PM
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M. Zillch Said:

Hifi, or high fidelity, means "a high truthfulness/honesty/accuracy" to the original source your replication came from. I haven't heard the term in years but the audio industry was once called "sound reproduction". Are you hearing Anna Case sing to you in your parlor or are you hearing a sound reproduction system attempting to replicate what it would sound like if Anna Case sang to you in your parlor? We don't "pick" what the tonal balance of her voice pleases us the most, her real voice dictates what the correct tonal balance should sound like. We want to reproduce it, not editorialize, manipulate, or alter it. [And she shouldn't alter her voice to match our crummy sound reproduction system, in an ideal world at least, but she did for marketing purposes it would seem.]


Garidy Replied:

In addition:

Ultra High Fidelity may be defined as the solid reproduction of music, in a given setting, as the recording artists and producer intend. Settings that are legitimately definable as being UHF, will reproduce a 3-dimensional (solid), transparent sound stage (with sonic height, width and depth - not surround sound), with the lowest percentile possible of additive distortions in the frequency domain (and time domains, due to the requisite, superior presence of a 3-D sound field). The two early indicators that a UHF experience is afoot, is the presences of sonic depth and transparency, because they are the hardest to achieve, and are rooted in absolute phase coherence, which is also at the root to proper frequency propagation, making it highly probable that gross errors in the frequency domain have also been greatly mitigated.
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Old 08-06-2014, 06:43 PM
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G ever seen the Ultra High Fidelity magazine ? just Googled it don't know much about it looks like an $$ audiophool joint though http://www.uhfmag.com/

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

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Old 08-06-2014, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
Oh Andy!
Aunt bees making some itie spaghetti for supper she's been watch-in those new fangled food cooking shows since Jullia Child croaked .... foods been getting lots better around here lately she even has a spice rack now instead of just salt and pepper and cinnamon and nutmeg imagine that ...............even made some respectable tosadas last week !

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

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Old 08-06-2014, 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post
Btw, using headphones helps *a bit* too . (Has anyone claimed victory here with anything like a normal loudspeaker-based listening setup? You know, where the listener is a few feet away from the loudspeakers?)
I will apologize in advance for the fancy terms I list below as part of my observations. Just be grateful I omitted "Timbre"

Yes, I can claim victory (Battle or War? - not sure) to have determined High-Rez vs. CD quality using loudspeakers. All 6 of the systems judged as "High-Rez" capable had a perfect score according to Scott. System components below.

Please note that I DO NOT claim that the differences were as a result of ultrahigh frequency content broadcast into my listening area. At least not directly.

Definitive Technology - Front L/R BP2002TL
Denon - AVR-3801 (predates room correction features. Was part of first wave of 'future proof AVR that could accommodate DVD-A and SACD analog multi-channel that were emerging technologies)
OPPO - BDP-95

Room has almost no room treatments. I have my window shades down on the right side and a large piece of foam on the left side.

A USB stick with the songs was fed right into the BDP-95 from which an analog path goes through the AVR to my speakers.

I can play an stringed instrument and can sometimes learn songs by ear without having to read the music notes.

Some notes about what I observed but I have omitted the song names to avoid any possible influence on tests yet to be performed by others.

0:26 - More real. Percussion sound is more authentic and is more separated from the other sounds.
0:40 - Multiple sounds are more distinct and it is easier for me to hear individual instrument characteristics.
0:50 - High frequency has more presence. I would almost claim more SPL too but even I find that impression hard to describe.

Passage from 0:08 through 0:16 - Easier to hear individual instruments. Way more dynamics.

0:33 - What I would describe as room reverb has more sustain. I.e. does not fade away as quick as with CD.
1:03 - The sound at this time is more real. The CD version just sounds jumbled up.
1:20 - Percussion sounds have more sustain as they fade away.

PS - I am not wearing my flame suit!!!!!
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Old 08-06-2014, 11:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Gaugster View Post
I will apologize in advance for the fancy terms I list below as part of my observations. Just be grateful I omitted "Timbre"

Yes, I can claim victory (Battle or War? - not sure) to have determined High-Rez vs. CD quality using loudspeakers. All 6 of the systems judged as "High-Rez" capable had a perfect score according to Scott. System components below.

Please note that I DO NOT claim that the differences were as a result of ultrahigh frequency content broadcast into my listening area. At least not directly.

Definitive Technology - Front L/R BP2002TL
Denon - AVR-3801 (predates room correction features. Was part of first wave of 'future proof AVR that could accommodate DVD-A and SACD analog multi-channel that were emerging technologies)
OPPO - BDP-95

Room has almost no room treatments. I have my window shades down on the right side and a large piece of foam on the left side.

A USB stick with the songs was fed right into the BDP-95 from which an analog path goes through the AVR to my speakers.

I can play an stringed instrument and can sometimes learn songs by ear without having to read the music notes.

Some notes about what I observed but I have omitted the song names to avoid any possible influence on tests yet to be performed by others.

0:26 - More real. Percussion sound is more authentic and is more separated from the other sounds.
0:40 - Multiple sounds are more distinct and it is easier for me to hear individual instrument characteristics.
0:50 - High frequency has more presence. I would almost claim more SPL too but even I find that impression hard to describe.

Passage from 0:08 through 0:16 - Easier to hear individual instruments. Way more dynamics.

0:33 - What I would describe as room reverb has more sustain. I.e. does not fade away as quick as with CD.
1:03 - The sound at this time is more real. The CD version just sounds jumbled up.
1:20 - Percussion sounds have more sustain as they fade away.

PS - I am not wearing my flame suit!!!!!

G2, Real decent playback chain any abx tests data for our resident experts (not me ) to review ?

My two hires capable systems with one being a working digital recording studio that can both create and play back hires files with ease can not resolve substantial differences between 2 otherwise same recordings of equal hires providence with the only difference being recorded media playback resolution using various mid field and near field professional studio monitors ,amplifiers ,interfaces or studio tracking phones . Same result for other hires PC playback chain
using same studio tracking phones .

I regret to have to inform you at this point and lacking any hard data we should probably conclude this is yet another usual hires cult unqualified sighted evaluation unproven by widely accepted scientific methods that's the proven (or unproven ) science takeaway here !
I could have told you that you may have posted all that for naught

While your posting was lacking any hard data ( note: not a requirement of this thread ) You might want to consider an internship and career change writing for an audiophool magazine there might be readers that actually believe all that ! Thank you for posting here . Additionally your observations have been duly noted here and also at NSA ☺☺☺☺☺☺☺

Many others here some with extensive scientific knowledge and professional experience in same have made no such claims! beware others may not be so kind ¬ ♫ ☺☺☺ ☺☺☺

PS: it a war the objectivists won over the subjectivists long ago yet they persist ☺☺☺☺


Ebola is in Nigeria now too beware ! I got it on CNN !

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

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Old 08-07-2014, 05:38 AM
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I don't have any sort of ABX setup. I just did the exercise as originally described. No more, no less.

Funny that I enjoy poking fun at audio snobs too but find myself in the crosshairs this time. Muhahahaha.....
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Old 08-07-2014, 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Gaugster View Post
I don't have any sort of ABX setup. I just did the exercise as originally described. No more, no less.

Funny that I enjoy poking fun at audio snobs too but find myself in the crosshairs this time. Muhahahaha.....
Sighted Evaluations Canned Response ☺☺☺
We may all hear things differently within an untreated room , without precise level matching of the sources at the gain stage and ultimately with maybe an spl dB meter at the listener it *may* be impossible to achieve a valid positive result in audio sample comparisons in any event a sighted evaluation or two does not establish a statistically representative result . plenty of experts here to debate these things and more for sure .

Since you are not claiming scientific proof but only stating opinions (nothing wrong with that )one can alwayse hope these armchair pundits,experts and non experts like me will be kind

Here is an interesting sticky at HA about Blind listening tests provided by one of the technical experts in residence here named armimn .

ABX is a subject I'm certainly no expert at better to read that HA sticky or listen to others than listen to me . Maybe you will get lucky and nobody will see what you have written or take it seriously ☺☺☺ OR the objectivists amonst us will not attack but only offer friendly and informative rebuttal as that is the intent of this thread not the bar of scientific proof .

cheers
Think I'll get up outta this chair and go pilfer some of aunt bees cookies and a glass of milk !

Medical authorities have announced Man in N.Y. hospital may not test positive for Ebola NY may be safe stay tuned stop.

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

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Old 08-07-2014, 07:26 AM
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I have read the "Sound Reproduction" book by Floyd Toole twice now over the last year or so. So understand the need for blind testing and more that 30 samples to be considered statistically relavent etc... But test was not set up that way originally. Was planning to get savy with REW one of these days but alas my career etc... Keeps getting in the way.

Have read some of the Armimn stuff in the past and will check this out in my unlimited free time.

Cheers.

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Old 08-07-2014, 07:30 AM
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Must be nice to have unlimited free time did you rob a bank or receive a substantial inheritance ?

Note : Member arny aka arnk invented the ABX test

RU a music reader? ♫

Fair and Balanced Let The Folks Decide !

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

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Old 08-07-2014, 07:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaugster View Post
0:26 - More real. Percussion sound is more authentic and is more separated from the other sounds.
0:40 - Multiple sounds are more distinct and it is easier for me to hear individual instrument characteristics.
0:50 - High frequency has more presence. I would almost claim more SPL too but even I find that impression hard to describe.

Passage from 0:08 through 0:16 - Easier to hear individual instruments. Way more dynamics.

0:33 - What I would describe as room reverb has more sustain. I.e. does not fade away as quick as with CD.
1:03 - The sound at this time is more real. The CD version just sounds jumbled up.
1:20 - Percussion sounds have more sustain as they fade away.
Why do you think those differences were there in the first place? Do you think those changes are a property of the high-resolution nature of the tracks (e.g., increased dynamic range and frequencies) or could be it be anomalies in the conversion process?

Have you tried listening to these on a non-high-res system and, if so, could you hear those same differences?
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Old 08-07-2014, 07:33 AM
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Must be nice to have unlimited free time did you rob a bank or receive a substantial inheritance ?
Sort of. I discovered the rare bamboo and patent it's use for audio electronics. So all the audio grade components and line conditioners have to pay me royalties. Sorry way OT.
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Old 08-07-2014, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Gaugster View Post
Sort of. I discovered the rare bamboo and patent it's use for audio electronics. So all the audio grade components and line conditioners have to pay me royalties. Sorry way OT.
Didn't know they had Bamboo trees in Chicago outside of the occasional Tiki lounge ................ interesting .

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -
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Old 08-07-2014, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by granroth View Post
Do you think those changes are a property of the high-resolution nature of the tracks (e.g., increased dynamic range and frequencies) or could be it be anomalies in the conversion process?
[emphasis mine]
It's that one. We already caught one, known alteration that was so minor most (all?) people never even noticed, however under close computer scrutiny this alteration became apparent and then later had to be manually corrected for: a minor level change (hence the need to release a completely new, manually corrected set of tracks for the "Take 2" version of this forum test).


Psst...I think I may have discovered a second one.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..


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Old 08-07-2014, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
[emphasis mine]
It's that one. We already caught one, known alteration that was so minor most (all?) people never even noticed, however under close computer scrutiny this alteration became apparent and then later had to be manually corrected for: a minor level change (hence the need to release a completely new, manually corrected set of tracks in the "Take 2" version of this forum test).


Psst...I think I may have discovered a second one.
Bro U still screwin wit this stuff? U hafta be bored $&%$ wit it by now ............watch a gansta movie on Neflix or something or maybe watch some paint dry ♫

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

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Old 08-07-2014, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garidy View Post
In addition:

Ultra High Fidelity may be defined as the solid reproduction of music, in a given setting, as the recording artists and producer intend. Settings that are legitimately definable as being UHF, will reproduce a 3-dimensional (solid), transparent sound stage (with sonic height, width and depth - not surround sound), with the lowest percentile possible of additive distortions in the frequency domain (and time domains, due to the requisite, superior presence of a 3-D sound field). The two early indicators that a UHF experience is afoot, is the presences of sonic depth and transparency, because they are the hardest to achieve, and are rooted in absolute phase coherence, which is also at the root to proper frequency propagation, making it highly probable that gross errors in the frequency domain have also been greatly mitigated.


Hmm. I wonder how many actual symphonic concert experiences qualify as 'UHF'?
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Old 08-07-2014, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post
Hmm. I wonder how many actual symphonic concert experiences qualify as 'UHF'?
Their not UHF reproductions, but R productions, as in Real; the quality of which, is solely predicated on your position of observation, all other things being equal.
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Old 08-07-2014, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post
Hmm. I wonder how many actual symphonic concert experiences qualify as 'UHF'?





This appendage is required for proper playback of a UHF track.


- Rich
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Old 08-07-2014, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post




This appendage is required for proper playback of a UHF track.


- Rich
That is what I use for "UHF" reception too (although the newer version is screwed up vs the first gen).

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Old 08-07-2014, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Garidy View Post
Their not UHF reproductions, but R productions, as in Real; the quality of which, is solely predicated on your position of observation, all other things being equal.
I'm not the first to note that the 'sound' that many audiophiles strive for -- wide soundstage, '3D' imaging and well-etched separation of instruments-- is not really what a live orchestra sounds like, even from the 'best' seats.
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Old 08-07-2014, 06:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB
This appendage is required for proper playback of a UHF track
Take me to your leader

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -
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Old 08-07-2014, 06:11 PM
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Anybody ever check out this highway robbery UHF HI FI joint ?
http://www.uhfmag.com/

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -
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Old 08-07-2014, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by granroth View Post
Why do you think those differences were there in the first place? Do you think those changes are a property of the high-resolution nature of the tracks (e.g., increased dynamic range and frequencies) or could be it be anomalies in the conversion process?

Have you tried listening to these on a non-high-res system and, if so, could you hear those same differences?
Dynamics were my main judgement factor. This could very well be related to conversion process although I would not go as far to say it was anomalies.

I don't have any other systems at my disposal except for my laptop perhaps. But will also need to use an ABX GUI since I have already identified which files are which. Time will tell.

Gaugster
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Old 08-07-2014, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Gaugster View Post
Dynamics were my main judgement factor. This could very well be related to conversion process although I would not go as far to say it was anomalies.
My (limited) software shows that all six files have a dynamic range of between 13 and 17 dB and for each A-B pair, they are essentially equivalent. In any case, 17 dB is trivially within the redbook specs, so this is likely not what you are talking about.

If the songs don't have a dynamic range that exceeds either standard, then my assumption is that a perfect conversion (no conversion anomalies) would reproduce the dynamics with 100% accuracy.

Clearly they were not reproduced 100% since you could detect differences.

So first, do you disagree with my assumption that you would not be able to detect differences in dynamics between a redbook quality version of a song and a high-res version if the full dynamic range was handled by redbook?

You mention that it could be related to the conversion process. What is your actual opinion (not me putting words in your mouth) on why you could detect differences in dynamics in those samples?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaugster View Post
I don't have any other systems at my disposal except for my laptop perhaps. But will also need to use an ABX GUI since I have already identified which files are which. Time will tell.
I would love it if you did. It would either answer some questions or add fuel to our existing ones, both worthwhile results. If you could still detect those differences in dynamics, then they clearly would have nothing to do with redbook vs high-res. If you no longer could hear those, though, then the mystery of what is going on continues.
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Old 08-07-2014, 08:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garidy View Post
Their not UHF reproductions, but R productions, as in Real; the quality of which, is solely predicated on your position of observation, all other things being equal.
You still picking that nose bro ........ must have a stone in there

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
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- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

Last edited by tubetwister; 08-07-2014 at 08:12 PM.
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Old 08-07-2014, 08:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaugster
Dynamics were my main judgement factor. This could very well be related to conversion process although I would not go as far to say it was anomalies.
real or perceived dynamics?.......... or bias expectation ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by granroth
My (limited) software shows that all six files have a dynamic range of between 13 and 17 dB and for each A-B pair, they are essentially equivalent. In any case, 17 dB is trivially within the redbook specs, so this is likely not
that what you are talking about.
17dB aint $&%$ for something that's supposed to be hires right bro ? ☺


Quote:
Originally Posted by ...... $&%$ I forgot !
If the songs don't have a dynamic range that exceeds either standard, then my assumption is that a perfect conversion (no conversion anomalies) would reproduce the dynamics with 100% accuracy.
I'll leave that one to the resident experts !

Quote:
Originally Posted by granroth
Clearly they were not reproduced 100% since you could detect differences.
TBH that makes sense to me ,again I will defer that to experts .

Quote:
Originally Posted by granroth
So first, do you disagree with my assumption that you would not be able to detect differences in dynamics between a redbook quality version of a song and a high-res version if the full dynamic range was handled by redbook?.

No disagreement here I don't know about the Gaugster like you were asking above though ain't no telling there

Some of my earlier rants below
Quote:
Originally Posted by tubetwister


IMO nothing has changed in over 10 yrs at the end user in that hires likely only
presents a significant advantage when the media has arguably superior recording and mastering not otherwise
available in a conventional loss less format. that about wraps it up .

IOW this hires res business is about played out here for practical purposes
as it applies to the end user anyway some academic discussion may remain but nothing much will come of it in practical use for the end user IMO ...........
(♫ ☺☺☺)

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

Last edited by tubetwister; 08-08-2014 at 12:50 PM.
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Old 08-07-2014, 08:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by granroth
I would love it if you did. It would either answer some questions or add fuel to our existing ones, both worthwhile results. If you could still detect those differences in dynamics, then they clearly would have nothing to do with redbook vs high-res. If you no longer could hear those, though, then the mystery of what is going on continues.

Also good to know if he was using the *first* set of AIX files (which had a 0.2dB level difference) or the second , 'corrected' set.
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Last edited by krabapple; 08-07-2014 at 09:45 PM.
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Old 08-07-2014, 08:48 PM
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^Granroth wrote that krabapple, I believe, not me.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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Old 08-07-2014, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krabapple View Post
Also good to know if he was using the *first* set of AIX files (which had a 0.2dB level difference) or the second , 'corrected' set.
Krab , can someone easily discern 0.2dB ? I was under the impression that the threshold was somewhat higher or no ?

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -
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