Will using an extension cord from an outlet to a sound conditioner degrade quality? - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Baselworld is only a few weeks away. Getting the latest news is easy, Click Here for info on how to join the Watchuseek.com newsletter list. Follow our team for updates featuring event coverage, new product unveilings, watch industry news & more!


Forum Jump: 
 2Likes
  • 1 Post By FMW
  • 1 Post By Bill Fitzmaurice
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 20 Old 08-07-2014, 07:54 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 24
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 1
Will using an extension cord from an outlet to a sound conditioner degrade quality?

I'm upgrading a small home theater set up, and due to a shortage of electrical outlets in the room, I'm most likely going to have to use an extension cord for a couple things.

I plan on picking up a Panamax MR4300 surge protector/power conditioner. To keep the TV and AV stuff centered nicely in the middle of the wall, I'm going to have to run an extension cord to plug the Panamax unit into. Due to the shape and setup of the room, the subwoofer is closer to the back seating area, so I also need to run a long extension cord from it in order to plug it into the Panamax unit.

My question is, will using an extension cord from the wall to the Panamax unit (and from the sub to the Panamax) degrade the quality of the Panamax itself? The surge protection is a must of course, but I've read that using a power conditioner is also supposed to improve television picture quality, surround sound quality, etc. But if having to use an extension cord causes a loss in quality improvements from the Panamax, maybe just going with a plain old surge protector is better?

The main parts of my setup are: Samsung PN60F3500 plasma tv, Onkyo TX-SR607 receiver, PSB surround speakers.

Thanks for the help!

Last edited by rjgrobinson; 08-07-2014 at 09:56 AM.
rjgrobinson is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 20 Old 08-07-2014, 08:26 AM
FMW
AVS Special Member
 
FMW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 6,217
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 931 Post(s)
Liked: 1145
Buying a "line conditioner" is pretty silly but the extension cord won't matter.
FMW is offline  
post #3 of 20 Old 08-07-2014, 08:27 AM
AVS Special Member
 
RayDunzl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 1,984
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 710 Post(s)
Liked: 888
No.

I'll be back later...


links::: 1.5RQ > digits > 1177a > OpenDRC-DI > DEQ2496 > DAC2 > KCT > FPB 350mcx > reQuest > Sweetspot
RayDunzl is offline  
post #4 of 20 Old 08-07-2014, 09:25 AM
 
SAM64's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,592
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Liked: 74
Quote:
but I know that using a sound conditioner is also supposed to improve television picture quality,
Does that actually make sense to you?
A "sound conditioner", that has nothing but power cables plugged into it, is supposed to increase image quality?
Would it make food tastier if you plugged a fridge into it?
SAM64 is offline  
post #5 of 20 Old 08-07-2014, 09:28 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Alan P's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 4,801
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1908 Post(s)
Liked: 957
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjgrobinson View Post
But if having to use an extension cord causes a loss in quality improvements from the Panamax, maybe just going with a plain old surge protector is better
Just what are these "improvements" you are expecting from the Panamax? If you're expecting audible improvements, you're going to be very disappointed. That money would be better spent on equipment that will provide audible improvements to your system...speakers, sub, room treatments, etc.
Alan P is offline  
post #6 of 20 Old 08-07-2014, 09:57 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 24
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Just what are these "improvements" you are expecting from the Panamax? If you're expecting audible improvements, you're going to be very disappointed. That money would be better spent on equipment that will provide audible improvements to your system...speakers, sub, room treatments, etc.
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-0oZ7Zf2...challenge.html
rjgrobinson is offline  
post #7 of 20 Old 08-07-2014, 10:00 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 24
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAM64 View Post
Does that actually make sense to you?
A "sound conditioner", that has nothing but power cables plugged into it, is supposed to increase image quality?
Would it make food tastier if you plugged a fridge into it?
My bad, I meant to write "power conditioner", not sound conditioner.

I have read several reviews online that states because of "dirty power" which comes from an outlet and can suffer interference from other electrical devices, etc., AV equipment might not be performing at its optimum levels. They say that a power conditioner smooths out the power, and allows your equipment to run better.

Check out this review from the site Crutchfield, which seems to be a reputable website/business. They had three professionals evaluate systems without power conditioners, and then with, and they all noted improvements in picture and sound quality when the power conditioner was used.

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-0oZ7Zf2...challenge.html
rjgrobinson is offline  
post #8 of 20 Old 08-07-2014, 10:07 AM
 
SAM64's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,592
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Liked: 74
Quote:
My bad, I meant to write "power conditioner", not sound conditioner.
It still applies....are you passing an audio or video signal through it?

Quote:
I have read several reviews online that states because of "dirty power" which comes from an outlet and can suffer interference from other electrical devices, etc., AV equipment might not be performing at its optimum levels.
What is 'dirty power'?
Do you think a power supply that drops to 0 Volts 120 times every second is 'dirty'?
Do you think a 120V AC supply that peaks at +/- 170V is 'dirty'?
Do you think your audio/video equipment actually operates on 120V AC?
"Power conditioners" are only beneficial to people who don't have a basic understanding of electronic equipment.

Quote:
Check out this review from the site Crutchfield,
A site that sells power conditioners has a solicited, positive review.

Last edited by SAM64; 08-07-2014 at 10:11 AM.
SAM64 is offline  
post #9 of 20 Old 08-07-2014, 11:07 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Glimmie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 8,209
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 300 Post(s)
Liked: 309
Just read the tag on any power tool at your local home center. The same applies here. As long as the extension cord is of sufficient wire gauge to minimize any loses, then it's fine.

Just buy one of those flat gray air conditioner extension cords which are at least 14ga, often 12ga wire. Don't worry, the air conditioner cord won't make your system sound bad to spite what some may tell you.

P.S. I fully agree with the cautions presented here. Do you really need a power conditioner? They can fix some problems but are not magical "makes it sound better" boxes.

Glimmie's HT Page
Being redone - comming soon!

Glimmie is offline  
post #10 of 20 Old 08-07-2014, 11:12 AM
FMW
AVS Special Member
 
FMW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 6,217
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 931 Post(s)
Liked: 1145
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjgrobinson View Post
My bad, I meant to write "power conditioner", not sound conditioner.

I have read several reviews online that states because of "dirty power" which comes from an outlet and can suffer interference from other electrical devices, etc., AV equipment might not be performing at its optimum levels. They say that a power conditioner smooths out the power, and allows your equipment to run better.

Check out this review from the site Crutchfield, which seems to be a reputable website/business. They had three professionals evaluate systems without power conditioners, and then with, and they all noted improvements in picture and sound quality when the power conditioner was used.

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-0oZ7Zf2...challenge.html

Time for you to learn about hearing bias and also about salesmanship. A line conditioner is snake oil. Sorry.
arnyk likes this.
FMW is offline  
post #11 of 20 Old 08-07-2014, 11:24 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Bill Fitzmaurice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 10,981
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 1986
Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW View Post
Time for you to learn about hearing bias and also about salesmanship. A line conditioner is snake oil. Sorry.
+1. The only sources that recommend power conditioners are those who make them, those who sell them, and those who've fallen for their sales pitches. Engineers who've actually measured their effectiveness agree to a man that they're a waste of money. AFAIK not one gear manufacturer recommends their use.
Here's the best way to get 'clean power': transformer isolate the AC line, convert the AC to DC, use high value capacitors to remove any ripple from the DC. This is what the power supplies in every audio device do.
mtn-tech likes this.

Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design

The Laws of Physics aren't swayed by opinion.
Bill Fitzmaurice is offline  
post #12 of 20 Old 08-07-2014, 11:24 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 70
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 37 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjgrobinson View Post
...I plan on picking up a Panamax MR4300 surge protector/power conditioner....
FWIW
I've used devices like the Trip-Lite IS1000 from time to time.
Mostly these things get used in Ship to Shore applications
but an IS1000 would probably would provide all the isolation
and protection you need, and better. Now all you need to do
is call an electrician to drive a separate earth ground.

http://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-IS1...006HPFIhttp://

They also make good boat anchors in a pinch.
wilcal is offline  
post #13 of 20 Old 08-07-2014, 01:17 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
amirm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Washington State
Posts: 18,818
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1328 Post(s)
Liked: 731
The Panamax has an over-voltage shutdown which is nice to have. It also has the standard (MOV based) surge protection. These things are not very effective and become less effective the longer the distance to the meter. So keep the extension cord as short as you can.

Amir
Retired Technology Insider
Founder, Madrona Digital
"Insist on Quality Engineering"
amirm is offline  
post #14 of 20 Old 08-07-2014, 04:34 PM
AVS Special Member
 
DonH50's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Monument CO
Posts: 6,737
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 443 Post(s)
Liked: 387
I do not see how the length affects the MOV. One inch or ten feet it still clamps. If there was a long distance from MOV to component then coupled energy could be a problem, but for something like this that would be something like a lightning strike on the house, and no power conditioner is likely to survive that anyway.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
DonH50 is offline  
post #15 of 20 Old 08-07-2014, 05:22 PM
AVS Special Member
 
BassThatHz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Northern Okan range (NW Cascades region)
Posts: 4,191
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 756 Post(s)
Liked: 651
If it's an old rusty, cheap/thin cord it might burn down your house... and/or might reduce the amount of power you can pull off the line (a couple volts and amperes).
But it won't affect the sound quality.
BassThatHz is offline  
post #16 of 20 Old 08-07-2014, 08:50 PM
AVS Special Member
 
DonH50's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Monument CO
Posts: 6,737
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 443 Post(s)
Liked: 387
I understand IR drop. I do not understand the importance of where the MOV is placed in this application. I would normally place any filter as near the component as possible, and that goes for the MOV as well, but in this case am not quite clear why the length of the cable to/from the MOV makes a big difference. Probably missing something obvious, long week, little sleep...

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
DonH50 is offline  
post #17 of 20 Old 08-08-2014, 02:28 AM
 
arnyk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Grosse Pointe Woods, MI
Posts: 14,530
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 851 Post(s)
Liked: 1211
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
I understand IR drop. I do not understand the importance of where the MOV is placed in this application. I would normally place any filter as near the component as possible, and that goes for the MOV as well, but in this case am not quite clear why the length of the cable to/from the MOV makes a big difference. Probably missing something obvious, long week, little sleep...
A long extension cord feeding the power conditioner gives it more to do along the lines of regulating power voltage as current varies, and also makes it easier for its MOVs to remove surges.
arnyk is offline  
post #18 of 20 Old 08-08-2014, 05:28 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Bill Fitzmaurice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 10,981
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 1986
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
I understand IR drop. I do not understand the importance of where the MOV is placed in this application. I would normally place any filter as near the component as possible, and that goes for the MOV as well, but in this case am not quite clear why the length of the cable to/from the MOV makes a big difference. Probably missing something obvious, long week, little sleep...
Placing a filter as close as possible to the device makes sense, if there is any induced EMI/RFI you don't want an additional length of 'antenna' between the filter and the device. That concern is addressed by the fact that high quality gear already has its own filtering built in. As for the MOVs, they only provide a moderate level of protection anyway. If you want to spend a few bucks and get serious surge protection replace your service breakers with surge protected breakers, like these, or whatever will fit your breaker box:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D-...1?N=5yc1vZbm05

Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design

The Laws of Physics aren't swayed by opinion.
Bill Fitzmaurice is offline  
post #19 of 20 Old 08-10-2014, 05:52 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Speedskater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Posts: 2,042
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Note that we are talking about:

A Type 3 SPD is a point of use Surge Protective Device,
installed at a conductor length of 10 meters (30 feet)
or greater from the electrical panel. These devices are
typically cord connected, direct plug-in, receptacle
type and SPDs installed at the load equipment being
protected. The distance of 10 meters excludes conductors
that are provided with, or used to attach the SPD.

And the NEC Article:

285.25 Type 3 SPDs. Type 3 SPDs (TVSSs) shall be permitted
to be installed anywhere on the load side of branch circuit
overcurrent protection up to the equipment served.
The Type 3 SPD connection shall be a minimum 10 m
(30 ft) of conductor distance from the service or separately
derived system disconnect if the Type 3 SPD includes a
cautionary marking, tag, or instruction statement pertaining
to the 10 m (30 ft) distance.

Kevin
Speedskater is offline  
post #20 of 20 Old 08-10-2014, 05:29 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mtn-tech's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Nevada
Posts: 1,122
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 203 Post(s)
Liked: 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post
Here's the best way to get 'clean power': transformer isolate the AC line, convert the AC to DC, use high value capacitors to remove any ripple from the DC. This is what the power supplies in every audio device do.
+1 - so not only does each audio component already have a power conditioner built in, it has one that removes all AC and noise components from the power - something that an AC power conditioner cannot do! If audio components had DC power inputs (like some preamps and DACs do) an external DC power supply with better filtering might be an advantage.

These power conditioners are not going to make any component look or sound better - only reason to buy them is to give you a central place to plug everything in (power strip), surge protection / connected equipment warrantee (questionable how reliable this is) or a central method of turning on/off equipment or sequencing the startup / shutdown of equipment (which can also be done with modern equipment with remote turn on sequencers). I use mine for all of these reasons but not to make anything sound better.

2-Ch (HT L/R): Oppo BDP-105 BD, Adcom GFP-750 pre, Bryston 10B Sub Xover, Bryston 4BSST2 / Paradigm Signature S4 v.2 (L/R), (2) SVS SB12-NSD (Subs)
Home Theater: Bryston 4BSST2 amp / Paradigm CC-590 (C), Outlaw 7700 amp / (4) Def Tech UIW-RSSII (LS/RS/LB/RB), Samsung 46” 3D LCD
mtn-tech is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Audio Theory, Setup, and Chat

Tags
av setup , Panamax , setup help , sound conditioner , surge protector

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off