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post #1 of 33 Old 08-12-2014, 11:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Need help building a system for a hair salon

Hey guys!

First time poster, long time reader. I have built many small setups, but never anything as big as this. I could use some direction!

I am building a system for a 2 story hair salon. It is about 1000 sq. ft. on each level. About 12' x 80' on each floor. The ceilings are about 12 feet high. I can not ceiling mount the speakers, because there is no flat ceiling. The ceiling is mostly wooden beams.

I am thinking I need either 3 larger speakers or 6 smaller speakers on each floor. I will most likely be playing the same input on both floors, but I would like to be able to adjust the volume separately for each floor.

I will be hooking up the system to a computer to play Spotify. The salon owners like the music to be fairly loud, but not overbearing.

Can anyone give me any recommendations on setup, and products I should be looking at?

Thanks in advance!
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post #2 of 33 Old 08-13-2014, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nriggz View Post
Hey guys!

First time poster, long time reader. I have built many small setups, but never anything as big as this. I could use some direction!

I am building a system for a 2 story hair salon. It is about 1000 sq. ft. on each level. About 12' x 80' on each floor. The ceilings are about 12 feet high. I can not ceiling mount the speakers, because there is no flat ceiling. The ceiling is mostly wooden beams.

I am thinking I need either 3 larger speakers or 6 smaller speakers on each floor. I will most likely be playing the same input on both floors, but I would like to be able to adjust the volume separately for each floor.

I will be hooking up the system to a computer to play Spotify. The salon owners like the music to be fairly loud, but not overbearing.

Can anyone give me any recommendations on setup, and products I should be looking at?

Thanks in advance!
The most important aspect is you want the audio distributed evenly, or at least evenly where it is needed. The more speakers, the better. This is background, so high fidelity and loud volume will not be a priority.

You should look into 70v constant voltage PA systems. The best thing about these systems is you can add speakers without needing additional amplifiers.

The fidelity will not be audiophile standards, but this isn't as important as coverage. You don't want a client and stylist getting blasted by one speaker so that someone further away can hear it.

You may not have a ceiling, per se, but you can use enclosed pendant speakers which can be suspended.

Try here:

https://www.parts-express.com/cat/co...r-systems/3431

Another thing to consider is the lower the speakers, the more you will need, but higher speakers will need more volume.

12 X 80 is an odd shape. I suspect you will need more speakers than what you are thinking, but as I mentioned, 70v systems lend themselves for easy expansion.

Good luck!
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post #3 of 33 Old 08-13-2014, 11:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks so much for your response! That is all very good information!

I think white pendant speakers would look great in this building. I was looking at high end pendant speakers at ~$200 each and found these guys.

http://www.adorama.com/PYPRJS66W.html

I like Pyle Audio, what is your opinion on running 8-10 of these on each level of the salon? I can't find any reviews, but these look good, are a great price, and I can get really good coverage at this price.

Thanks again!
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post #4 of 33 Old 08-13-2014, 01:28 PM
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I really dislike Pyle - their quality is so poor that about half of what you buy will be broken on arrival. You will spend more time shipping items back (or fixing them) than they are worth. I was asked to set up a PA system on a VERY tight budget and everyone decided on Pyle just for cost - I fixed both the speakers and one of the stands that came broken - but they are still working.

The "JBL Control" speakers would be really nice and impress customers (they would impress me), but they are very expensive - $350 / pr.

How about Dayton Audio speakers at Parts Express - I don't see any "pendants" but they do have the indoor / outdoor mountable speakers that I see in just about every business - you could mount them on the underside of beams and point them in the correct direction.

Dayton Audio IO655BT 6-1/2" 2-Way 70V Indoor/Outdoor Speaker Pair Black - $92 / pr in quantity


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post #5 of 33 Old 08-13-2014, 01:41 PM
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I think they make 70V amplifiers with multiple zones so that you can set a different volume in each area, but I think this is not a common feature.

A 70V system also has the advantage of different power taps on each speaker / transformer - you should be able to use these switches on each speaker to balance the volume between different areas, but this would be a one time setup. I'm not sure how much relative volume control it would give you (between the loudest and quietest speakers). I've never tried using the power selections to balance volume - maybe someone else could chime in there.

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post #6 of 33 Old 08-13-2014, 01:53 PM
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One thing to consider after you've made your choice on speakers is acoustic treatments.

I owned a Spa with my ex wife (engineer, so brute force labor here, not a hair dresser) and found that the main room (high angled ceilings, hardwood floors) had some massive amount of echoed sound.

So when the hair dressers were working and talking to customers the room became very loud. You add music to that, it became unbearable.

So I bought some panels like these, put them on the ceiling, some on the walls and it tamed the room considerably, so the music was a pleasant addition instead of just more noise piling on.
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post #7 of 33 Old 08-13-2014, 03:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mtn-tech View Post
I really dislike Pyle - their quality is so poor that about half of what you buy will be broken on arrival. You will spend more time shipping items back (or fixing them) than they are worth. I was asked to set up a PA system on a VERY tight budget and everyone decided on Pyle just for cost - I fixed both the speakers and one of the stands that came broken - but they are still working.

The "JBL Control" speakers would be really nice and impress customers (they would impress me), but they are very expensive - $350 / pr.

How about Dayton Audio speakers at Parts Express - I don't see any "pendants" but they do have the indoor / outdoor mountable speakers that I see in just about every business - you could mount them on the underside of beams and point them in the correct direction.

Dayton Audio IO655BT 6-1/2" 2-Way 70V Indoor/Outdoor Speaker Pair Black - $92 / pr in quantity

I saw those Daytons, I just thought the hanging would look a lot cleaner.

If I can't find some decent quality, good looking pendants, I'll end up using something like these Daytons.
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post #8 of 33 Old 08-13-2014, 04:32 PM - Thread Starter
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What do you guys think of this setup?

4 pairs of these on each floor?

https://www.parts-express.com/dayton...white--310-014

And this amplifier?

https://www.parts-express.com/dayton...ifier--300-815

This gives me 6 zones to control independently as well!
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post #9 of 33 Old 08-13-2014, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nriggz View Post
What do you guys think of this setup?

4 pairs of these on each floor?

https://www.parts-express.com/dayton...white--310-014
I've never listened to them but I have listened to Dayton bookshelf speakers and they sounded quite good - for the price a great value especially since they have power selectable 70V transformers built in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nriggz View Post
And this amplifier?

https://www.parts-express.com/dayton...ifier--300-815

This gives me 6 zones to control independently as well!
It does give you volume control of each pair, but this is a stereo amplifier and you are going to have some Left channel speakers and some Right channel speakers - it can sound strange as you move around the building. I am trying to make my whole house system mono right now. One of the advantages of the 70V amps is they have a stereo input (from your computer, MP3, etc) and a mono speaker output - all the speakers will be playing exactly the same information. Mono may be possible from your computer (depends on what you have) but it is not trivial for standard MP3 / CD player inputs.

What about two smaller 70V amplifiers, one for each floor? Then you could use the switches on the backs of the speakers to set how loud each is compared to the others (speakers close to customers would be turned down, ones mounted high could be turned up) and use the volume on the FRONT of each of these amplifiers for each floor:

Behringer EUROCOM SN2108 80 Watt 70V Mixing Amplifier - $129 ea

2-Ch (HT L/R): Oppo BDP-105 BD, Adcom GFP-750 pre, Bryston 10B Sub Xover, Bryston 4BSST2 / Paradigm Signature S4 v.2 (L/R), (2) SVS SB12-NSD (Subs)
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Thanks for the suggestions!

mtn-tech, if I were to use that behringer, will I be able to hook up 4 pairs of speakers (total of 8 speakers) without any problems?

I do think I should have a mono system, that makes the most sense!
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post #11 of 33 Old 08-14-2014, 07:38 AM
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If I were to use that behringer, will I be able to hook up 4 pairs of speakers (total of 8 speakers) without any problems?
As I understand it, a 70V amplifier can drive as many speakers as you want as long as the selected power taps on all the connected speakers add up to less than the amplifier's rating.

Yes, that Behringer 80 Watt amplifier would be able to drive 8 speakers - up to the 8 watt setting on each of the speakers (8 speakers x 8 watts = 64 watts) - which is going to be quite a lot of sound. You will probably not need to run the speakers at 8 watts, but I don't know the ceiling height and how loud it will be - these will determine your power settings. If you need to get more volume and switch the speakers to 16w you would need a more powerful amplifier.

If it was me, I would probably get two amplifiers, one for each floor and locate them next to each other so the same source (your computer) could be connected to the input of each. You could independently set the volume on each floor and if you ever wanted a different source on one of the floors you could connect another source to that amplifier. You could even connect a microphone for paging. If you really want a single amplifier I would suggest one with more power to give you more power to each speaker in case you need more volume.

Check out this guide for choosing how many speakers and how much power you will need:

Designing and setting up a 70V Sound System

2-Ch (HT L/R): Oppo BDP-105 BD, Adcom GFP-750 pre, Bryston 10B Sub Xover, Bryston 4BSST2 / Paradigm Signature S4 v.2 (L/R), (2) SVS SB12-NSD (Subs)
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4. Licence and assignment

The Spotify Service and the content provided through it are the property of Spotify or Spotify's licensors, and we grant you a limited, non-exclusive, revocable licence to make personal, non-commercial (except as permitted under Section 11) use of the Spotify Service and to receive the media content made available through the Spotify Service in your Local Country, based on the Subscription or Trial, you have selected (the “Licence”).

I'll be back later...


links::: 1.5RQ > digits > 1177a > OpenDRC-DI > DEQ2496 > DAC2 > KCT > FPB 350mcx > reQuest > Sweetspot
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post #13 of 33 Old 08-14-2014, 11:52 AM
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4. Licence and assignment

The Spotify Service and the content provided through it are the property of Spotify or Spotify's licensors, and we grant you a limited, non-exclusive, revocable licence to make personal, non-commercial (except as permitted under Section 11) use of the Spotify Service and to receive the media content made available through the Spotify Service in your Local Country, based on the Subscription or Trial, you have selected (the “Licence”).
Expanding this a little:

"Basic things to agree to in Spotify's terms of use

So, what do you need to know and agree to before signing up to Spotify? Spotify asks you to agree to the following restrictions:
  • Age: You need to be 18 years of age or older, or confirm that you’re 12 years of age or older (13 in the U.S.) and have parental or guardian consent.
  • Residence: You must live in one of the countries in which Spotify operates.
  • Accuracy: You need to enter correct registration information.
  • Noncommercial, personal use only: If you run a shop or cafe, and are playing Spotify for your customers, that’s considered a commercial use and isn’t permitted. And if you play Spotify in a school, that’s also not personal use.
  • Subscription tiers: The differences between the listening options available to your region are listed here.
  • Pricing: Spotify could change the prices at any time. But download bundles you’ve already bought are valid until their expiration date."

And just for you to consider, this is a peer to peer network. It means your computer is used to provide other people with Spotify product. Spotify will use your computer as a server. So this is being done where you may store your shop's information.

"Advertising and use of computational resources in Spotify's terms of use

The “Advertising and Use of Computational Resources” headline in the Terms of Use sounds a little out of place given that all the other headlines are quite clear. Yet this section is one of the most important.
Basically, this section says that Spotify uses file-sharing technology to run its service. It makes use of your computer’s resources and Internet connection to exchange music between other Spotify users. Spotify stores recently listened to tracks in a folder (or cache) on your hard drive and uses your computer to help deliver this content to anyone else looking for it.
This setup is why Spotify is so fast and immediate: Your computer is fetching music from other users’ computers it finds nearby, and because one good turn deserves another, you are also helping deliver content to others.
The main mechanism it uses is a technology called peer-to-peer (P2P) sharing. File-sharers who use tools such as ********** have been doing peer-to-peer sharing for years — this just a commercial, encrypted, and quality-controlled version of it."



(Source for the above)
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post #14 of 33 Old 08-16-2014, 12:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the heads up about Spotify! I'll be sure to let the client know!

So I'm a little confused...I only need one input, but I need about 4 zones of output...

It seems when I am looking at distribution amps, they don't have wattage stated in the name...and mixers are for multiple inputs, not outputs...

So what kind of amplifier do I need exactly? I found out the space is smaller than I originally thought, so I only need about 10 speakers, so anything over 80w should cover it.

I need 80+ watts, 4 zones (outputs) with separate volume control, and only one input.

I'm having trouble finding an amp that meets these specs!

Thanks so much for your guys' patience and help!
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post #15 of 33 Old 08-16-2014, 07:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nriggz View Post
Thanks for the heads up about Spotify! I'll be sure to let the client know!

So I'm a little confused...I only need one input, but I need about 4 zones of output...

It seems when I am looking at distribution amps, they don't have wattage stated in the name...and mixers are for multiple inputs, not outputs...

So what kind of amplifier do I need exactly? I found out the space is smaller than I originally thought, so I only need about 10 speakers, so anything over 80w should cover it.

I need 80+ watts, 4 zones (outputs) with separate volume control, and only one input.

I'm having trouble finding an amp that meets these specs!

Thanks so much for your guys' patience and help!
Have you looked at whole house audio? HTD is one provider, there are others.

The idea is that you buy a good stereo amplifier like this Yamaha to feed the whole house audio system, which has amplifiers for every speaker.

Now you can get the simplest system which broadcasts just the one signal, or multiples, to handle music for the reception area, cutting floor, nails and massage area differently.

It also provides you with volume dials in every room, if someone chooses to turn the volume down or off. Much better for a professional installation.
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post #16 of 33 Old 08-16-2014, 01:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Have you looked at whole house audio? HTD is one provider, there are others.

The idea is that you buy a good stereo amplifier like this Yamaha to feed the whole house audio system, which has amplifiers for every speaker.

Now you can get the simplest system which broadcasts just the one signal, or multiples, to handle music for the reception area, cutting floor, nails and massage area differently.

It also provides you with volume dials in every room, if someone chooses to turn the volume down or off. Much better for a professional installation.
Do these work with 70v speakers?
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post #17 of 33 Old 08-17-2014, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by nriggz View Post
Do these work with 70v speakers?
Ah. I'm sorry, completely missed the 70 volt requirement. I don't think so, these are meant for passive speaker systems. Probably just a stereo AVR and a 70 volt amp like this one then.
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post #18 of 33 Old 08-17-2014, 07:37 PM - Thread Starter
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What do you guys think about this amp for a 70v system, controlling audio in multiple zones?

http://www.allprosound.com/catalog/p...kville-CA1.htm

Thank you!
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post #19 of 33 Old 08-18-2014, 03:45 AM
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Originally Posted by nriggz View Post
What do you guys think about this amp for a 70v system, controlling audio in multiple zones?

http://www.allprosound.com/catalog/p...kville-CA1.htm

Thank you!
You were wanting individual volume control of each zone, no? According to the manual, this mixing amp doesn't seem to do that.

ETA: This amp has a preamp out. You could daisy chain two of them. Plus, the panels have minimal controls.

http://www.allprosound.com/catalog/p...ductdownloadst

Last edited by koturban; 08-18-2014 at 04:00 AM.
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post #20 of 33 Old 08-20-2014, 10:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi guys! I'm having a bit of trouble figuring out the best way to go here...I'm trying to figure out a way to build a 4-6 zone system with mono audio for under $2k, if possible.

I could do a whole house audio system as @hernanu suugested, but I want a mono system for about 6 different zones...is there an easy way to do that? It seems most of these systems are stereo, or bridged mono (which I guess would potentially work?)

Or I could do a 70v system, but again I need four to six zones...it is RIDICULOUSLY expensive for a 4+ zone 70v system...is there a way to get around this? Like wiring a 70v system to a bunch of in-wall volume controls? I could daisy chain the volume controls, and then just run up to speakers...would this give me multiple zone control?

This isn't my area of expertise, but my friends don't know anyone willing to do the install that won't charge them an arm and a leg.

Let me know what your guys opinions are?

Last edited by nriggz; 08-20-2014 at 10:37 PM.
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post #21 of 33 Old 08-21-2014, 06:01 PM
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Sorry that you are still having problems getting a system chosen. You have given a budget now, so that should help others get you set out with a shopping list that will meet your needs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nriggz View Post
I'm trying to figure out a way to build a 4-6 zone system with mono audio for under $2k, if possible.

I could do a whole house audio system as @hernanu suugested, but I want a mono system for about 6 different zones...is there an easy way to do that? It seems most of these systems are stereo, or bridged mono (which I guess would potentially work?)
Bridged mono is something completely different (taking 2 channel amplifier and combining channels to drive one speaker with more power) - don't worry about that.

Yes, a whole house audio system could work as long as you have enough amplifier channels - one for each speaker. That Dayton Audio MA1240a Multi-Zone 12 Channel Amplifier - $495 would be able to drive 12 separate speakers. You could use local volume controls which will adjust the volume of two speakers at the same time.

To make the system mono, you would only need a stereo to mono converter installed between the source (your PC) and the amplifier input - something like this:

Monacor SMC-1 Stereo to Mono Audio Converter - RCA Input and Output - $25

I still think these Dayton indoor / outdoor speakers would do the job for low level background music at a reasonable price - if you don't need the 70V capable ones they are cheaper:

Dayton Audio IO655W 6-1/2" 2-Way Indoor/Outdoor Speaker Pair White 8 Ohm only $80/pr in qty

The other way you could go is to use "impedance matching volume controls" - you could use one pair of amplifier outputs and one pair of speaker wires to connect "up to 8 pairs of speakers each" - the volume controls are more expensive but you wouldn't need as many amplifier channels (maybe only one pair per floor) - that amplifier above would be able to run 6 zones and you would have a volume control for each pair of speakers:

Niles VCS100K Volume Control Kit - Connect up to 8 pairs of 8-ohm speakers to a single stereo amplifier (requires 1 volume control per speaker pair)

Amplifier $495, Speakers 6 x $80/pr = $480, Volume controls 6 x $60 = $360, Wire + mono converter + misc = $200, about $1500

Quote:
Originally Posted by nriggz View Post
Or I could do a 70v system, but again I need four to six zones...it is RIDICULOUSLY expensive for a 4+ zone 70v system...is there a way to get around this? Like wiring a 70v system to a bunch of in-wall volume controls? I could daisy chain the volume controls, and then just run up to speakers...would this give me multiple zone control?
It wouldn't be that expensive if you just used four of these small amplifiers - one for each zone - they are only $130 each. You would probably need to locate them all together so you could feed all of them from your PC source but they have a volume control. I don't know if you can use volume controls for a 70V system.

The big advantage of a 70V system is the wires - for this 4 zone system you would only need 4 speaker wires - one to each amplifier connected to all the speakers for that zone. The other system would have a separate wire for each speaker connected to the amplifier.

Behringer EUROCOM SN2108 80 Watt 70V Mixing Amplifier

2-Ch (HT L/R): Oppo BDP-105 BD, Adcom GFP-750 pre, Bryston 10B Sub Xover, Bryston 4BSST2 / Paradigm Signature S4 v.2 (L/R), (2) SVS SB12-NSD (Subs)
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post #22 of 33 Old 08-28-2014, 04:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks so much for all the valuable information!

What do you think of working some of these into the system?

http://www.mcmelectronics.com/produc...00D-/555-13560

Thanks!
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post #23 of 33 Old 10-20-2014, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nriggz View Post
Hey guys!

First time poster, long time reader. I have built many small setups, but never anything as big as this. I could use some direction!

I am building a system for a 2 story hair salon. It is about 1000 sq. ft. on each level. About 12' x 80' on each floor. The ceilings are about 12 feet high. I can not ceiling mount the speakers, because there is no flat ceiling. The ceiling is mostly wooden beams.

I am thinking I need either 3 larger speakers or 6 smaller speakers on each floor. I will most likely be playing the same input on both floors, but I would like to be able to adjust the volume separately for each floor.

I will be hooking up the system to a computer to play Spotify. The salon owners like the music to be fairly loud, but not overbearing.

Can anyone give me any recommendations on setup, and products I should be looking at?

Thanks in advance!
My hairdresser uses a Sonos system ....works really well

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post #25 of 33 Old 11-28-2014, 04:14 PM - Thread Starter
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I have one final question.... I have 3 of the behringer 80w 70v amps running the sound system, and I used a passive splitter to send one input to all 3 amps.... The splitter is causing a buzz, I think due to attenuation....

I was wondering if anyone knows of a powered or amplified splitter that will work well with this kind of setup, using 1/4 inch cables.....

Thanks peeps!
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post #26 of 33 Old 11-29-2014, 05:42 AM
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I've used this little amp to actively split (and balance the volume) of multiple pairs of amplified speakers and it worked well with no added noise - and it uses all 1/4" stereo TRS inputs and outputs (I needed 3.5mm adapters but you wouldn't):

BEHRINGER MICROAMP HA400 - $25

How does the system sound?

No buzzing if you only have one amp connected?

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post #27 of 33 Old 11-29-2014, 07:10 PM - Thread Starter
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No buzzing with just one amp... And that's exactly the part I just ordered and I was planning to test tomorrow!
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post #28 of 33 Old 12-01-2014, 07:21 PM - Thread Starter
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So there's no buzzing with one amp... But with all 3 on the behringer, there's buzzing all around... Anyone have any other suggestions for a splitter?

Thanks
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post #29 of 33 Old 12-03-2014, 10:22 AM
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This sounds like an input / output impedance mismatch (which the Berhringer should have corrected) or a ground loop issue (which I am not an expert on correcting). If we ask / answer some questions we will probably get some input from others who are really good at these issues.

  • Buzzing with the volume all the way down or only when turned up?
  • There no buzzing when only one amplifier is used - is this true of all three amplifiers? All three are fine when used as a single amplifier but when more than one there is a buzzing from all connected amplifiers?
  • What is your source again? The analog audio output of a laptop?
  • How are the power cords connected for the three amps and for the source?

2-Ch (HT L/R): Oppo BDP-105 BD, Adcom GFP-750 pre, Bryston 10B Sub Xover, Bryston 4BSST2 / Paradigm Signature S4 v.2 (L/R), (2) SVS SB12-NSD (Subs)
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post #30 of 33 Old 12-04-2014, 10:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Buzzing with the volume all the way down or only when turned up?

Buzzing gets higher as sound gets higher.

There no buzzing when only one amplifier is used - is this true of all three amplifiers?

I only tried it on one. I'll report back.

All three are fine when used as a single amplifier but when more than one there is a buzzing from all connected amplifiers?


What is your source again? The analog audio output of a laptop?

Coming out of a computer headphone jack.

How are the power cords connected for the three amps and for the source?

The amps are plugged into a power strip, and so is the computer. Different power strip though.

I also have 70v volume controls in each room.
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