Expensive cables a waste of $$ - Page 17 - AVS Forum
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post #481 of 595 Old 08-19-2014, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by WilliamZX11 View Post
If you claim you can hear the difference, YOU are lying. You have no proof, and haven't posed any, just delusional opinions.
Another evasive person afraid to take the Pepsi challenge. Oh well.

I guess that the mastering and recording studio engineers that use these cables are lying and delusional. And you've compared these cables yourself and heard no difference?
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post #482 of 595 Old 08-19-2014, 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by drblank View Post
Another evasive person afraid to take the Pepsi challenge. Oh well.

I guess that the mastering and recording studio engineers that use these cables are lying and delusional. And you've compared these cables yourself and heard no difference?
You haven't really compared cables. What you've done with your cables is called observation, casual one perhaps. IOW, you haven't done the Pepsi challenge yourself.
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post #483 of 595 Old 08-19-2014, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by drblank View Post
Oh, like I'm the only person on the planet that uses them? Pfff.
Who cares?

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The Anti-high end cable crowd can't even stroll down to a dealer and do a listening test and then spout nonsense about them or high end cables?
There's such a group? Consisting of the vast majority of people involved with audio outside of those marketing of vastly overpriced wire?

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You don't have any proof that they don't work.
You have no proof they do.

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The Anti-high end cable people aren't hurting the high end cable sales.
I believe that common sense has had an impact but hard to overcome poor judgement of those taken in by the marketing.

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If you can't afford them, that's one thing, but to say there is no difference is utter nonsense. It's been proven by audio engineers in high end studios, high end audio equipment mfg for years..
I can afford them but there's no reason to afford them, they're simply rubbish. Please present any valid proof of your claim that anything has been proven about this product's claimed performance by anyone reasonably respected in the field of engineering or audio.

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I haven't heard from a single person that's actually compared them to a garden variety cable that hasn't heard a noticeable difference. That's what makes the Anti-High end cable crowd sound pathetic.
I haven't heard from a single person other than you about this flavor of snake oil and I can't see that you've applied any methodology to your comparison other than your self-appointed golden ears. Those who shill these products are the pathetic ones (while guys like Brisson laugh all the way to the bank as did his previous employer, Mr Lee at Monster).

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You guys act like you have trained ears, yet you can't hear differences in high end cables vs low end cables? I was just choosing one brand that made a huge difference to me 20 years ago that convinced me that cables make a difference. I didn't say you have to buy them, I'm just saying try them before you say high end cables don't make a difference.
You don't seem to have any training in this regard let alone the ability to determine a reasonable method of comparison.

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Is it possible for you to actually have SOME experience in audio products? Otherwise it makes you sound like someone that just listens to low end products bought at Best Buy or Sears thinking it's as good as high end.
And you have some experience? More than mine? Doubt it but then I'm not professing any particular level of experience of such either and it sure as heck doesn't sound like you have any more than myself....you really should re-read the babble you've been spouting.

Interestingly, I know the guy who has the last three patents listed on the page of patents on the MIT site, he's an art/marketing guy by and large (currently product manager for WTB, a mountain bike accessories company). Will have to look him up soon....

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post #484 of 595 Old 08-19-2014, 11:25 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post
I browsed through half a dozen of them. A lot of the graphs are very hard to read as they are low resolution and full of compression artifacts. There are other graphs that are clear but many are simulations, not measurements. Then there are measurements which have been doctored up in ways I have never seen before.

Case in point are a number of measurements that showed how much energy the cable stores. They claimed their cables store as much as 700+ joules! I was going to run out and get that cable and use it instead of a battery . Then I read this little fine print at the end of the paper:

A Note on the Measurements
In the calculation of the energy and power figures used in this
paper, voltage and current must be entered into our simulator.
When normal line levels are used, the energy actually
stored is quite small - on the order of microjoules.
This results in
plots with axis scales in scientific notations that are difficult to
read and understand.

In deference to humans accustomed to dealing with “normal”
number, therefore, we increased the voltage and current
to bring the energy and power up to comprehensible levels.

While the levels were increased greatly, the same line levels
were used for all products, and no matter what the levels,
the magnitude of difference between all products remains the same


Comprehensive level? Turning microjoules into joules makes them more comprehensible??? If you don't mind, I like my measurements to be real, not multiplied by thousands and only noted so at the end of the article.

So I stopped there . Pls let me know which measurement influenced your decision to buy into these cables and I will read and comment on that.
Which White paper did you grab this info from? I glanced at several of them but couldn't find the same verbiage mentioned.

There were no white papers for me to read back in the early '90's when I first heard about MIT Cables, so all I did was used the cables. I think I glanced at some literature for a couple of minutes, but I can't remember what it was as this was about 20 years ago. But I was discussing what they were doing with the articulation measurements which intrigued me as a means to better predict sound quality as no cable companies would even talk about how to measure quality of sound. No one shows those kind of measurements, not Belden, Mogami, etc. So, anyone that measures for quality of sound is doing something in the right direction. I was just handed a pair of cables to take home for an audition with no advanced knowledge of what to expect. I was first apprehensive about them due to the price, but from the sound quality improvement perspective, it was more noticeable than any other equipment upgrade for the money at the time and even if I got better speakers. But the one thing that really struck me was there was no harshness with any of their cables, which I am ultra sensitive about and if there's harshness in the system. I simply can't listen to any system for very long without getting ear fatigue etc. I had to stop going to concerts because of PA's having bad sound quality. Over the years, i'm just that more sensitive to it. So, if I hear any harshness in a system, I can't listen to it for more than maybe a minute before it starts to irritate me. I noticed the same improvement in sound with the Transparent Cables as well, but I'm just a little more partial to MIT as I think their build quality is a better for the terminations. At least from the specific cables I've used. Plus, I was able to get what I wanted used when I got my last set of cables and that also helped.

If you want to spend time looking at measurements and no time listening to the product, that's your choice. I understand companies should provide measurements, but ultimately, if the product does what it's supposed to do and we like the sound quality, that's what audio equipment is all about. I just never heard any of their cables sound harsh, when I can go through other cables that don't have these filter boxes and they do. I just reached a point where I stopped bothering to look at other cables because it's not worth my time and energy to find something that might work as good for cheaper, when the time/money and energy involved would cost me more than the product itself.

I mean, how am I supposed to find a cable that doesn't sound harsh by looking at measurements? Can you show me another cable that doesn't sound harsh, has the same sound quality and you can prove it by a cable measurement provide by another company?
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post #485 of 595 Old 08-19-2014, 11:45 PM
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
Who cares?

There's such a group? Consisting of the vast majority of people involved with audio outside of those marketing of vastly overpriced wire?

You have no proof they do.

I believe that common sense has had an impact but hard to overcome poor judgement of those taken in by the marketing.

I can afford them but there's no reason to afford them, they're simply rubbish. Please present any valid proof of your claim that anything has been proven about this product's claimed performance by anyone reasonably respected in the field of engineering or audio.

I haven't heard from a single person other than you about this flavor of snake oil and I can't see that you've applied any methodology to your comparison other than your self-appointed golden ears. Those who shill these products are the pathetic ones (while guys like Brisson laugh all the way to the bank as did his previous employer, Mr Lee at Monster).

You don't seem to have any training in this regard let alone the ability to determine a reasonable method of comparison.

And you have some experience? More than mine? Doubt it but then I'm not professing any particular level of experience of such either and it sure as heck doesn't sound like you have any more than myself....you really should re-read the babble you've been spouting.

Interestingly, I know the guy who has the last three patents listed on the page of patents on the MIT site, he's an art/marketing guy by and large (currently product manager for WTB, a mountain bike accessories company). Will have to look him up soon....
You mean the last 2 patents for the enclosures. Come on, you are freaking reaching for straws.

They have more technical documentation on cables than any other company about their cables.

And what measurements do you have on the cables you buy that made you buy them? The price? Hahahaha.
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post #486 of 595 Old 08-20-2014, 12:07 AM
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Originally Posted by koturban View Post
Wrong question. The question should be "is there a difference for someone to hear?"
I already know that people hear a noticeable difference and they can be people that aren't well trained. If you breathe, have a pulse and aren't deaf, chances are pretty high that you'll hear a noticeable difference. I haven't met anyone that couldn't.
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post #487 of 595 Old 08-20-2014, 12:34 AM
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Originally Posted by drblank View Post
You mean the last 2 patents for the enclosures. Come on, you are freaking reaching for straws.

They have more technical documentation on cables than any other company about their cables.

And what measurements do you have on the cables you buy that made you buy them? The price? Hahahaha.
Sorry, there were three patents total listed as connected in another website wth CVTL Inc (dba MIT Cables?) that he was involved with (could be two were the same, would have to go double check, not that interesting since we're talking about a design for enclosures/connectors. Why is that a straw, I know the guy and obviously he knows Brisson and worked with him at one point...hopefully I can get some good info from him but haven't seen him in several years.

They have what technical documents that mean anything? Show us one and what is meaningful in it.

I didn't buy my speaker cables based on "measurements". No need to. I buy on a combo of price and quality of constructions which is easily enough found. You didn't buy on measurements from what you said as you don't even understand them IIRC.

Come on, where's the rest of your facts you keep referring to?

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post #488 of 595 Old 08-20-2014, 12:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post
John Curl has some serious issues. Let's just say that he's one man that Will Rogers absolutely never met.
Nice way to say something I've been thinking of since years back when I found out that he was sitting on some web site I never heard of, tarnishing my name and calling me out.
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post #489 of 595 Old 08-20-2014, 12:42 AM
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Originally Posted by drblank View Post
I already know that people hear a noticeable difference and they can be people that aren't well trained. If you breathe, have a pulse and aren't deaf, chances are pretty high that you'll hear a noticeable difference. I haven't met anyone that couldn't.
Two words: Sighted Evaluation.

If you breathe, have a pulse and have an IQ in the triple digits, you should be able understand why sighted evaluations involving controversial audible differences are invalid. They are monumentally prone to false positives. The magic wire business would not exist were it not for the inherent flaws of sighted evaluations.
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post #490 of 595 Old 08-20-2014, 12:53 AM
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Originally Posted by drblank View Post
And is there any proof that it's better? Please show me some proof on that. And what DSP are you referring to?
In the papers listed here:

Expensive cables a waste of $$

some of which are professional papers published by widely respected, authoritative refereed professional journals, there is considerable evidence that magic cables are as a rule ineffective.

I can't list even a tiny fraction of the professional papers published by widely respected, authoritative refereed professional journals that elucidate the positive effects that can obtained for audio systems through the application of DSPs. DSPs are one of the major technical innovations of the last decade or two. They are only slightly less pervasive than microprocessors, of which they are strictly speaking a subset of. Most modern cell phones have them, for example, and so do almost all portable digital music players, BD players and AVRs.

That a person who claims some even casual knowledge of audio, who would be so totally infatuated with magic wires to the point that they do not know what a DSP is, is really quite a fascinating revelation.

It looks like I have encountered such a person!
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post #491 of 595 Old 08-20-2014, 01:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Gates View Post
Well I for one have been convinced by drblank and buying these to wire my whole 7.1 setup in the 20ft lenghts (you can see the price from the drop-down) http://www.mitcables.com/available-o...ker-cable.html
Well, if you have the bucks, go for it. But for your 7.1 system, you could buy the in wall installation and the wall plates, it's a lot cheaper and for AV systems, you probably don't need that much more than that.

The system I have for my home theater is a Meridian, it's all coax cable. I'm using MIT for my 2 channel.
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post #492 of 595 Old 08-20-2014, 01:09 AM
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Originally Posted by drblank View Post
You mean the last 2 patents for the enclosures. Come on, you are freaking reaching for straws.
Everybody with a brain knows that most patents these days aren't worth the paper they are printed on. If you have about $6,000 for fees and an off-the-wall idea you can patent it.

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They have more technical documentation on cables than any other company about their cables.
Documents, many of which appear to be written in double-talk. I love the graphs whose Y axis is marked in arbitrary units of an undisclosed quantity.

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And what measurements do you have on the cables you buy that made you buy them? The price? Hahahaha.
The magic cables I've tested were totally unexceptional except in terms of appearance and packaging.

One of the real laughs were a series of expensive cables, sold in an impressive lined carrying case, that alleged to improve system high frequency response by reducing skin effect through the use of multiple wires twisted together, all individually insulated with enamel and silk.

Didn't you say that Bruce Brisson worked for Monster? They may be from those times.

My measurements said that they were ineffective and had the about same high frequency losses as solid 12 gauge wire. However, since their copper cross section was more like 13 gauge wire, they were slightly less effective at transporting audio signals.

At any rate, anybody who understands skin effect knows that in order to reduce it, you would need to put some kind of a large flexible filler or spacer in the middle of the cable conductor and wind the strands of wire around it. The cost of separate insulation for each strand is a complete and total waste. Eye wash. This is in fact done with major trunk lines in TV cable systems if they are not already fiber.
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post #493 of 595 Old 08-20-2014, 02:36 AM
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Originally Posted by spkr View Post
You haven't really compared cables. What you've done with your cables is called observation, casual one perhaps. IOW, you haven't done the Pepsi challenge yourself.
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post #494 of 595 Old 08-20-2014, 03:35 AM
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I bet you dollars to donuts that the next thing the snake oil salesmen are going to come out with are cables made with graphene.

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2...onder-material

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post #495 of 595 Old 08-20-2014, 03:52 AM
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Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post
I bet you dollars to donuts that the next thing the snake oil salesmen are going to come out with are cables made with graphene.

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2...onder-material
If it costs a lot of money and sounds like it could help they would probably be hawking pig $#!^. That's what a lot of their highly-touted "white papers" are.

It all hangs on the big problem for them that good grade commodity cables are really quite good, technically speaking. If you go into development labs guess what most techs use to hook up audio equipment under test?
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post #496 of 595 Old 08-20-2014, 04:55 AM
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Originally Posted by drblank View Post
Another evasive person afraid to take the Pepsi challenge. Oh well.
You are lying again.

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I guess that the mastering and recording studio engineers that use these cables are lying and delusional.
Very much so.

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And you've compared these cables yourself and heard no difference?
I compared them with a group of people. Not a single one could hear the difference, unless they could see them.
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post #497 of 595 Old 08-20-2014, 05:25 AM
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Hey, I ran across this on the web. Anybody hear of these cables?

Einstein B.O.M.B. Gold Speaker Cables
$250,000.00/pair


Let’s face it - - you’re way past the “Cadillac Man.” You know what you want out of life and you take it. You’ve got the power, prestige and most of all, the bank account to never settle for less. Most audiophiles would compare the audible improvement of the Binaural Omnidirectional Mega Beat (the BOMB) speaker cables to an upgrade of loudspeakers or other components. Even more are surprised to discover that installing Einstein B.O.M.B. Gold Speaker Cables will extend sonic signals that are 100% immeasurable - - but extremely pleasing. Why? Because "just cable" is inefficient. Extending the bandwidth of audio frequencies from the faintest gnat fart to the loudest supersonic jet will keep you riveted to your seat. Einstein’s B.O.M.B. technology attains unprecedented levels in audio clarity, circuit efficiency and sonic delivery. Did we tell you that they sound great! Hand delivered with installation (no charge!) in most major metropolitan U.S. locations.


Sold in pairs.

Home Theater Setup
Samsung UN65ES8000 LCD/LED
BenQ W1080ST Projector
Pioneer SC65 (Pre-Amp)
Wyred4Sound MMC-7 Channel Amplifier, 221wpc
OPPO 103, Directv GENIE
Darbee Darblet
ALL Paradigm - 7.1 - Studio 60's, V.2 (FL/FR)
CC-690, V.5 (C)
ADP 590 V.5 (SS)
MilleniaOne 2.0 (BS) - Velodyne 810 Sub
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post #498 of 595 Old 08-20-2014, 05:27 AM
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The problem here might be the choice of MIT cables over which to debate. Since these cables have filters attached to them I assume they might have a sonic signature. In our blind tests we had one interconnect cable pair have a sonic signature. Upon autopsy we discovered that the conductor was wound into a coil so the cable measured quite high in terms of inductance.

Our position is that a properly made cable will not display an audible difference from another properly made cable. MIT and our coil wound cable are not properly made cables. So both sides could be correct here. It is possible to make a cable into an equalizer and MIT could be one of those. Those who hear one will sense the audible difference. In the meantime, the rest of us who have done bias controlled tests on cables understand that properly made cables don't have a sound. Perhaps it is better so say that the vast majority of high end cables are snake oil. The few remaining are engineering abominations because the purpose of making a cable should not be for it to affect the signal it carries audibly..
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post #499 of 595 Old 08-20-2014, 05:28 AM
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Originally Posted by WilliamZX11 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrBlankBrain
Another evasive person afraid to take the Pepsi challenge. Oh well.
You are lying again.
IME Lying is hard to prove well because it implies a knowledge of the author's state of mind.

Given all of the evidence that has been presented in just this thread, it seems like a ton of it would have to be intentionally ignored in order to reach the conclusion presented above.

I think that a specification of deception (whether of self or others) will stick.

With that the logic of the poster's arguments descends to a simple totally desperate audio salesman's veiled bullying. He's seems to basically be threatening prospects with browbeating and loss of status. This actually can work with people who have a ton of money burning a hole in their pockets or a lack of self-esteem. IME that pretty well summarizes the market for overpriced audio cables, or for that part overpriced anything.
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post #500 of 595 Old 08-20-2014, 05:53 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
In the papers listed here:

Expensive cables a waste of $$

some of which are professional papers published by widely respected, authoritative refereed professional journals, there is considerable evidence that magic cables are as a rule ineffective.

I can't list even a tiny fraction of the professional papers published by widely respected, authoritative refereed professional journals that elucidate the positive effects that can obtained for audio systems through the application of DSPs. DSPs are one of the major technical innovations of the last decade or two. They are only slightly less pervasive than microprocessors, of which they are strictly speaking a subset of. Most modern cell phones have them, for example, and so do almost all portable digital music players, BD players and AVRs.

That a person who claims some even casual knowledge of audio, who would be so totally infatuated with magic wires to the point that they do not know what a DSP is, is really quite a fascinating revelation.

It looks like I have encountered such a person!
I tried to download the pdf, but it wasn't available. The only thing I read was Monster cable, I didn't see other cables listed. Our stereos and the cables on the market over the last 20 years have come a long way since the early '80's. I don't know what bringing up an article from the early '80's has anything to do with later cable designs, this Greenhill test was done about 10 years before the MIT Cables that I first tried existed. So, you really wasted my time.

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post #501 of 595 Old 08-20-2014, 06:08 AM
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Originally Posted by drblank View Post
I tried to download the pdf, but it wasn't available.
There were dozens of PDFs. Try another.


Quote:
The only thing I read was Monster cable, I didn't see other cables listed. Our stereos and the cables on the market over the last 20 years have come a long way since the early '80's.

Obviously then, the magic cable industry has done a good job of keeping people with a technical interest away from further investigations of magic cables, probably by raising their prices to gross-out heights and avoiding handing out review samples to anybody but people who were already in their pockets.

I've definitely seen that behavior in this thread.

The current approach is: "Pay us tons of money if you want to provide an unbiased review"

I get that. If you are selling The Emperor's New Clothes, make it practially impossible for people with unfettered judgment look at them in advance.

One surprise is that at least one poster with objective pretensions actually seems to support this veiling technique by the magic cable industry by criticizing attempts to get one of their representatives to put up or shut up.

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post #502 of 595 Old 08-20-2014, 06:22 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
IME Lying is hard to prove well because it implies a knowledge of the author's state of mind.

Given all of the evidence that has been presented in just this thread, it seems like a ton of it would have to be intentionally ignored in order to reach the conclusion presented above.

I think that a specification of deception (whether of self or others) will stick.

With that the logic of the poster's arguments descends to a simple totally desperate audio salesman's veiled bullying. He's seems to basically be threatening prospects with browbeating and loss of status. This actually can work with people who have a ton of money burning a hole in their pockets or a lack of self-esteem. IME that pretty well summarizes the market for overpriced audio cables, or for that part overpriced anything.
I'm figuring out a test to give to a friend of mine. My friend has only heard my stereo once for about 15 minutes, he's never heard anything that he would consider "HIGH END" only very low end stereo equipment that's found in those schlocky stereo stores that sell the lower end Japanese products with the low end speakers they try to pass of as high end. You know the type of places. Anyway, I'm going to take zip cord and test him to see if he can tell the difference between the zip chord he uses and the MIT cables I use. I'm not going to tell him anything other than slap a blind fold on him and play a song or two for him to listen to and then swap the cables, but he'll be unaware of what changes I'm making. If he can tell, would that satisfy your curiosity that an untrained, unprepared listener can tell the difference between zip cord and MIT cables? If there is anything about the test you want me to do, let me know. I haven't said anything to him and he's clueless that I'm going to test him on different cables. And he's only had a short period of time listening to my stereo. I want to make it as hard as possible and put the test subject in the most unfair advantage about a double blind test of MIT cables vs 12 gauge zip cord. I might have to wait a couple of weeks because he's giving me some of his cable to try, but when I do the test I want to leave some time so he won't know I'm testing his zip cord, but I will post the findings regardless of the outcome of testing an unprepared, non-audiophile. In fact, I have a few other non-audiophiles, untrained people I can use in this double blind fold test. That way I know they are unaware of what they are being tested on, they'll have no preparation. So feed me ideas and I'll let you know what I can do. I want this to be as unfair against the listener as I can, but at least being as honest of how it's administered..

I want to take an biased against someone's ability to tell the difference so i can use YOUR test methods on un-trained, non-audiophiles. If I did it, I would give them preparation time, but in this test I want it as biased as possible to give them as little ability to hear the difference while being honest about how it's conducted. Are you willing to help me devise this test to convince you? I will not lie about the test results.

If the test results prove my theory, then all you guys have to stop your silly nonsense. If it proves your theory, then I'll stop. Fair? Are you guys chicken? I'll man up, but will you?

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post #503 of 595 Old 08-20-2014, 06:34 AM
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I'm figuring out a test to give to a friend of mine. My friend has only heard my stereo once for about 15 minutes, he's never heard anything that he would consider "HIGH END" only very low end stereo equipment that's found in those schlocky stereo stores that sell the lower end Japanese products with the low end speakers they try to pass of as high end. You know the type of places. Anyway, I'm going to take zip cord and test him to see if he can tell the difference between the zip chord he uses and the MIT cables I use. I'm not going to tell him anything other than slap a blind fold on him and play a song or two for him to listen to and then swap the cables, but he'll be unaware of what changes I'm making. If he can tell, would that satisfy your curiosity that an untrained, unprepared listener can tell the difference between zip cord and MIT cables? If there is anything about the test you want me to do, let me know. I haven't said anything to him and he's clueless that I'm going to test him on different cables. And he's only had a short period of time listening to my stereo.
So what? Not at all responsive to my post. Looks to me like just piling on another irrelevant inaccurate highly biased evaluation that isn't even a decent test. We've got more than enough reviews done bacly by someone who is in the manufactuer's pocket.

Obviously someone is running away from the kitchen because it is getting too hot for them. People who have good cards play them, and people who don't, either bluff or if they are really smart they just quit the game.
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post #504 of 595 Old 08-20-2014, 07:08 AM
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Are you willing to help me devise this test to convince you? I will not lie about the test results.
Help you devise a test that some one will fail on purpose? Why would anyone do that? DBT's are designed to remove bias, not add it.

It's obvious you are a very dishonest person. I have no doubt you would lie about the test results.
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post #505 of 595 Old 08-20-2014, 08:05 AM
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So what? Not at all responsive to my post. Looks to me like just piling on another irrelevant inaccurate highly biased evaluation that isn't even a decent test. We've got more than enough reviews done bacly by someone who is in the manufactuer's pocket.

Obviously someone is running away from the kitchen because it is getting too hot for them. People who have good cards play them, and people who don't, either bluff or if they are really smart they just quit the game.
It's not getting too hot for me, you are OBVIOUSLY not going to man up and help me make sure the test subjects know anything about how to evaluate cables to prove my theory.

I'm asking you to help me devise a test that you think would be good enough to see if non-audiophiles that are untrained can hear the difference, if there are things about the test you want me to do, if I think it's reasonable and I can do it, then it will be part of the listening test. I'm asking for you to help me devise the test so that it satisfies both the Anti High End crowd and myself. So, this is YOUR opportunity to assist in devising the test.
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post #506 of 595 Old 08-20-2014, 08:07 AM
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Well, MIT Cables doesn't use Zobel network, they have their own patented design. What if the Zobel network was designed around a specific frequency that wasn't an even frequency, but a frequency that's an actual musical note frequency and the capacitors, resistors and inductors were precision matched with the most strictest custom components?
Whether MIT's filter has effects in the audible range should be readily measurable and if the effects are audible, their existence should be easily demonstrable through measurements. A "filter" is an EQ divice, by definition, so if the cables impose EQ then they ought to sound different from cables that don't impose EQ.


But whatever you think you mean be "a frequency that wasn't even a frequency" is utterly beyond me. A frequency is a frequency. A musical note also is sound at a specific frequency. Musical notes produced by almost every instrument you can name contain the frequency of the main note (the fundamental) and harmonics of that frequency. Radio frequencies and light frequencies are inaudible to human beings, but are also real frequencies, just in a different medium. All of these are frequencies. Real frequencies. Not one is an un-frequency.

And any filter will have effects at specific frequencies within a specific circuit. Regular old analog filters (ie capacitors and coils) have frequency characteristics that are in a sense controlled by the input impedance of the device they are connected to. it's measurable and if the difference between input impedances of two amps is sufficient the difference in the behavior of a particular filter will be quite easily audible.

In sum, it's easier to believe in magic when your understanding of the underlying science is incomplete and or inconsistent with reality . . . . Or alternatively, if a person cannot utilize the language adequately to express what they really mean, real communication is desperately unlikely.
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post #507 of 595 Old 08-20-2014, 08:07 AM
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Help you devise a test that some one will fail on purpose? Why would anyone do that? DBT's are designed to remove bias, not add it.

It's obvious you are a very dishonest person. I have no doubt you would lie about the test results.
I want the test subject to not have any idea what they are being tested on and I want untrained non-audiophiles listening to music they are unfamiliar with.

This is your opportunity to help me devise a test you will be in agreement with. Obviously, I will tell you ahead of time if I can do what you think is possible for me to do with limited resources since I don't have a perfect listening room.
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post #508 of 595 Old 08-20-2014, 08:08 AM
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I'm asking you to help me devise a test that you think would be good enough to see if non-audiophiles that are untrained can hear the difference, if there are things about the test you want me to do, if I think it's reasonable and I can do it, then it will be part of the listening test. I'm asking for you to help me devise the test so that it satisfies both the Anti High End crowd and myself. So, this is YOUR opportunity to assist in devising the test.
That's not what you said above at all:

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I want this to be as unfair against the listener as I can, but at least being as honest of how it's administered..
More dishonesty.
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post #509 of 595 Old 08-20-2014, 08:09 AM
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I want to take an biased against someone's ability to tell the difference so i can use YOUR test methods on un-trained, non-audiophiles.
Did you mean unbiased?
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If the test results prove my theory, then all you guys have to stop your silly nonsense. If it proves your theory, then I'll stop.
This means that you've never done a real comparison yet. Then all those ramblings you've spouted last # of weeks are just baseless claims. An acknowledgement of that from you would be the first order of business in this endeavor. What say you?
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post #510 of 595 Old 08-20-2014, 08:16 AM
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Whether MIT's filter has effects in the audible range should be readily measurable and if the effects are audible, their existence should be easily demonstrable through measurements. A "filter" is an EQ divice, by definition, so if the cables impose EQ then they ought to sound different from cables that don't impose EQ.


But whatever you think you mean be "a frequency that wasn't even a frequency" is utterly beyond me. A frequency is a frequency. A musical note also is sound at a specific frequency. Musical notes produced by almost every instrument you can name contain the frequency of the main note (the fundamental) and harmonics of that frequency. Radio frequencies and light frequencies are inaudible to human beings, but are also real frequencies, just in a different medium. All of these are frequencies. Real frequencies. Not one is an un-frequency.

And any filter will have effects at specific frequencies within a specific circuit. Regular old analog filters (ie capacitors and coils) have frequency characteristics that are in a sense controlled by the input impedance of the device they are connected to. it's measurable and if the difference between input impedances of two amps is sufficient the difference in the behavior of a particular filter will be quite easily audible.

In sum, it's easier to believe in magic when your understanding of the underlying science is incomplete and or inconsistent with reality . . . . Or alternatively, if a person cannot utilize the language adequately to express what they really mean, real communication is desperately unlikely.
Do you know how to read posts? I said they weren't using a frequency that was a "MUSICAL" frequency. The frequency 3000Hz isn't a fundamental, harmonic or inharmonic or even an overtone normally found in acoustic instruments. Serioulsy.

Adding a "EQ" in the normal sense is not the same way MIT or Transparent or others that implement filter boxes in their cables. They implement them in parallel not in series which is how traditional EQs are used. EQ's in series to cables is essentially altering the signal directly. EQ's in parallel is more just changing how the cable stores and releasing the energy of the frequencies to allow whatever the cable is fed to properly transmit the audio so we can hear what we are supposed to hear. Yeah, they are measured and MIT and I'm assuming others measure this as well.

In the Dagogo article, it was mentioned by Brisson that it takes him about a week to put a cable through the various tests he does. Also from the reading he mentions some of the test equipment he uses, but some of it was designed and built by him and his son specifically to do certain measurements. He also uses the proprietary s/w that does tests that they are only capable of performing since the s/w hasn't been released to the public. So, they are doing other tests that aren't on the website. I don't know if they plan on releasing additional and updated information, but I do know the are creating a CD of some sort, but I don't what's going to be on the CD and what it's supposed to be used for. I think they mentioned something along the lines of a test CD, but I have no idea other than that.
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