Expensive cables a waste of $$ - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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Old 08-16-2014, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by CharlesJ View Post
Of course they will. How is that credible evidence? Seems to be a logical fallacy of authority perhaps.

Can you tell us how they validated their claim? How are they immune from imagining something not there?
Or, they just don't have to demonstrate such things to anyone but themselves?
What are you talking about? I've talked to engineers that have worked for high end recording studios and one of the engineers I talked to was involved in their evaluation process of evaluating cables and they did both measurement tests and listening tests and it was done over a long period of time and this is a studio that will pay money for something that improves their ability to get a better recording. They only tell people they like something after they've done their own testing and decide to buy the product. These high end cable mfg won't just give away 5,000+ feet of cable for free. Some mfg like a Yamaha will give their endorsers free product and actually pay them for showing up at trade shows, etc. But these high end cable mfg don't have that kind of marketing funds to tap into. The only thing they might get is a professional discount due to the magnitude of the order, but most cable mfg do that. They also might sign up to be a beta test site to be a "trained" listener.

I read one interview with Bob Ludwig and he uses two sets of speakers, the Eggleston Ivy speakers which are $100K a pair, which he helped design, and a pair of Yamaha NS-10's that most studios have on hand. He mentioned he hates using the NS-10's because they sound like crap, but he uses them when the record label requests him to master a recording on those speakers and it's typically for over the radio versions or a recording that's tailored to be listened to by teenagers, since most teenagers have cheap stereos and typically don't have $100K speakers floating around so they get requests to make it sound good on cheap speakers, but he did mentioned he hates using them.

Already you dismiss what anyone else tells you because you prefer to live in a world where cables don't make any difference, but the thing is, they can. You just sound like someone that WANTS to be an authority dismissing Bob Ludwig, when in fact, he's probably one of the most requested mastering engineers in the business with more technical awards than just about anyone in the mastering industry and what he thinks matters to a whole lot of other people. But he's not the only engineer I take into consideration. I've talked to other engineers over the years and typically what I've found out is the people that say there is no difference really haven't spent much time actually evaluating a lot of high end cables or even high end audio systems as they pretty much stuck to lower end products. That's what my experience has told me. I just pointed out Bob Ludwig because he is considered amongst the best of the best and he's a very honest person in his interviews. He's not out to prove or disprove cables.

My advice to you is to do more evaluations of cables and do the Pepsi challenge with MIT or Transparent cables and try some of the other high end brands that have unique cable designs. Go to audio stores and audition cables there and take home demos to try in your own home and after you've listened to every brand/model cable and you've exhausted your record collection, THEN come back to me. But I doubt you've spent enough time listening to cables which is my point. Oh well.

I would put Bob Ludwig as an authority on being a trained listener than you any day of the week. OK?
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Old 08-16-2014, 07:29 PM
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Let me first ask you. What do you do, listen to, etc. when you've compared cables. This will give me an idea of how you currently do things.

I can certainly offer my advice, but let me listen to how you currently evaluate cables/products. I'll offer my advice after I get a clear understanding of what you do.

1. recordings you listen to. Just list maybe the top 5 to 10 recordings/tracks you listen to. You can PM the list if you prefer.
2. Volume level. Do you measure listening levels?
3. Length of time.

any other things you can tell me about your current methodology.

You can PM me and we can take this discussion off line as to not bother others with our discussion if you prefer.
Thank you for showing me that you don't understand what objective cable comparison is. That explains why you've been posting what you've been posting.

Sorry to break your bubble, you've been misguided about audio cabling. I know it's hard to break away from it especially when you've been in that bubble for many years. I know because (as I mentioned already) I've been in that bubble too.

Try this. http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm
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Old 08-16-2014, 07:32 PM
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You don't get static noise
Is that what I said or is that the distorted version of what I said?
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Old 08-16-2014, 08:17 PM
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What would be a good matching speaker cable for this ::

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Old 08-16-2014, 08:22 PM
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According to ArnyK, Monoprice 18 AWG
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Old 08-16-2014, 08:24 PM
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Thank you for showing me that you don't understand what objective cable comparison is. That explains why you've been posting what you've been posting.

Sorry to break your bubble, you've been misguided about audio cabling. I know it's hard to break away from it especially when you've been in that bubble for many years. I know because (as I mentioned already) I've been in that bubble too.

Try this. http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm
Really? Just because you say so doesn't mean it's true. I only asked you how you evaluate cables and you just give me some silly response with nothing to back up your statement. I should have known not to waste my time with someone that is biased and will conjure up anything to not be open minded.

If you can't explain how you evaluate cables, then it makes me feel as if you just did some short term tests which are probably meaningless.

What led you to believe that they don't make a difference? Explain how you evaluate cables to give you the illusion that they don't make a difference? Please explain your methodology for deciding that? Have you gotten older where you can't hear like you used to? Have you trashed your ears listening to loud music? Do you listen to highly compressed audio? Do you listen to mostly 5.1 vs 2 channel. Please explain what defining moment you had that made you switch from higher end cables to cheap cables? Maybe I'll try the cheap cables to see if they are as good as the cables I currently have?

Without explaining yourself, you come off like someone that's bitter or something else.
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Old 08-16-2014, 08:26 PM
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Old 08-16-2014, 08:28 PM
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As a electronics and electrical engineer, I can tell you wasting money on expensive brand cables, weather it be for speaker wire, audio component cables or HDMI video cables are a waste of money. One might pump a signal down a cable and look at the wave with a oscilloscope or spectrum and see a minute difference, but to the imperfect human ear, there's no way in hell you're going to tell the difference.
Especially if your over the age of 10. The human ear Deteriorates as we age, loosing effective hearing from 20,000 Hz (the top of the range down to 1000 Hz, every day of your life. So spending extra money on expensive cables won't do a thing. For speakers, get some standard copper 18g - 16g wire, and be done with it. For component RCA plug cables, getting the gold connector types are a joke. You ain't gonna hear it. Same for the digital HDMI cables with gold connectors...they aren't real gold to begin with, and even if they were you aren't going to notice the difference. The extra money you save, spend on decent speakers and a center speaker. With a half way quality theater amp of 70 watts a channel, the speakers make all the difference in the world. And Ohh... power filters for your components..... B.S. The transformer converting the AC to DC for all of the circuitry along with filtering capacitors take care of all of the filtering you need.


I agree with you.


However what I can't get past is an "electronics and electrical engineer" saying things like "a electronic" and using the word "loosing".


I doubt you're really an engineer, but aside from that I agree with your point.
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Old 08-16-2014, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by TheNeff View Post
Silver might trump copper, but where?
Circuit boards are clad in copper.
Unless u live in a mobile home, which you probably do,
house wiring is copper.
So to wiring in appliances.
So too in Air-conditioners.
The list goes on and on.
They use gold in Space Craft, not Silver.
As far as sweeping floors,
you'd best go back and sweep the floor of your mobile trailer.


I was quietly reading this thread when I read that post...boy, you made ma laugh! thank you! you certainly sound more like a poet than an electrical engineer...
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Old 08-16-2014, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by drblank View Post
My advice to you is to do more evaluations of cables and do the Pepsi challenge with MIT or Transparent cables and try some of the other high end brands that have unique cable designs. Go to audio stores and audition cables there and take home demos to try in your own home and after you've listened to every brand/model cable and you've exhausted your record collection, THEN come back to me. But I doubt you've spent enough time listening to cables which is my point. Oh well.
And what are your thoughts on power cords? Which ones do you use?


http://www.head-fi.org/t/219202/its-...cords-reviewed
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Old 08-16-2014, 08:40 PM
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What would be a good matching speaker cable for this ::

One that has pure copper conductors of sufficient gauge, which you can determine by using this:
http://www.bcae1.com/images/swfs/spe...rassistant.swf

Pure copper isn't a necessity, but with other materials you would have to do a lot more research to find the correct minimum gauge requirement, and any slight savings wouldn't be worth the bother.

Neither the looks not the cost of a speaker has any bearing whatsoever on what cable should be used with it.

However what I can't get past is an "electronics and electrical engineer" saying things like "a electronic" and using the word "loosing".
I doubt you're really an engineer, but aside from that I agree with your point
.

Just because he didn't get an 'A' in English Composition doesn't mean he's not really an engineer. Not that it matters. Those on the other side of this particular fence most assuredly are not electrical engineers, let alone professional loudspeaker designers.

And what are your thoughts on power cords?

I recommend that you use them. You could power your gear with Tesla coils, but it's much easier to plug them into the power grid.
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Old 08-16-2014, 08:45 PM
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Anyone that claims there new expensive speakers cables made a huge difference needs to go take one of the drivers out of there speakers and take a look at how they are terminated to the drivers and go examine the crossovers in the speaker. Chances are they won't have some crazy expensive gold plated connectors....lol
Yet they are in the signal chain from the amp, so go figure
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Old 08-16-2014, 08:49 PM
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Thank you for showing me that you don't understand what objective cable comparison is. That explains why you've been posting what you've been posting.

Sorry to break your bubble, you've been misguided about audio cabling. I know it's hard to break away from it especially when you've been in that bubble for many years. I know because (as I mentioned already) I've been in that bubble too.

Try this. http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm
Why don't you mention that site to Bruce Brisson. He can probably explain why this site might be misleading. Now, I will tell you that there are ways to mislead both sides, it's easily done. I can conjure up ways for you to not hear any difference just like I can conjure up a test for you to be able to hear a difference. It's actually easy to conjure up both sides. It's making sure that the listener can't do a long term evaluation or picking out cables that are very similar or very dissimilar, or listening to bad recordings, loud volume levels that cause ear fatigue preventing you from hearing everything. Lots of ways to disprove and prove differences in cables.

Now, if you want to read some half baked site that hasn't tested every cable on the market and done every possible test that cables mfg have done to prove their technology, then all I can say is that it's a misleading website that hasn't tested everything.

My first question is to ask the person that made the site what their credentials are for listening to audio equipment? Someone like a mastering engineer that spends their days listening to 1st and 2nd generation recordings who's job is to make a better recording is reliant on the equipment they use. The guy who created this site doesn't sound like someone that actually knows how to listen to cables.

Some of things I might agree with, but there are many things I don't. Yeah, those cable stands i'm up in the air about since I've never used them to tell if they actually do anything but help in cable management and gives the user that ability to keep cables away from other cables. If you have ever been in an environment with a lot of power cables and audio cables and digital cables, you know that putting power cables too close to other cables may cause some problems, so that's about all they might be actually doing, but again, I think they are just a fancy way of cable management so they don't really improve sound as much as they prevent problems, so I see those as more of a preventative measure to keep cables away from one another in situations where they have lots of cables and power cables in the same proximity.

As far as the tests that they showed like the Monster cable tester. I don't use those type of tests to persuade me one way or another because it's been designed to prove one thing.

They mentioned damping as a myth. I'm not in a position to comment on that. However, with digital cables, I've been told that damping is critical in digital SPDIF cables, but that's different than speaker cables or analog interconnects. I've never read by the people I listen to that mentioned damping as a critical factor with speaker cables or analog interconnects so i can't comment on that.

What's wrong with doing listening tests where you aren't playing at high volumes that can cause short term hearing damage? I do that for all listening tests of equipment. I also will sometimes turn the volume even lower to get a sense of how well the product (regardless of what it is) does low level detail. Some products are only good at one volume level and some are good at a wider listening range, so changing the volume levels can give the listener the ability to hear how the product responds to low medium and high listening levels, but i do keep the volume level down below a harmful level as ear fatigue will prevent one from conducting a proper evaluation of anything in the audio world.

Also, the person that created that website didn't conduct any articulation measurements of any kind. Only did a limited number of tests with a limited number of cables, so it's very incomplete. Also, they didn't really go into all of the different types of copper wire where the levels of purity change drastically and they have measurements to back up the fact that the super high OFC quality copper is much better than the low grade copper used in the low end cheap cables.

Plus, the bottom line is, have you heard a difference in cables in your own listening tests and ultimately let you decide without anyone telling you what sounds better or worse? I've done plenty of evaluation of cables over the years and there are cables that are definitely better sounding and I can't deny that fact. I can't tolerate listening to a system that's harsh sounding. It causes ear fatigue and I'm well aware of that. I bought some relatively low end powered speakers for my computer for causal listening and the interconnects I had originally were good quality, but I noticed I couldn't listen to my system for longer than about 15 minutes as it was just too harsh sounding. I tried another set of interconnects that were relatively inexpensive ($90 a pair) and that's not a ton of money. I heard such a difference it was undeniable. I could then listen to my system all day long without any ear fatigue, and I could actually turn it up to higher levels without distortion and it was actually kind of strange how good sounding these speaker were with high resolution tracks. That solidified that even relatively inexpensive cables on an inexpensive system can greatly improve what you have. So, whenever someone tells me that there is no difference in sound quality, I just shake my head and know that they aren't examining things as well as they should.

I like to be my own judge and definitely not listen to those that I don't think are qualified listeners.

What brands of cables have you personally done any long term evaluations of and how do you evaluate cables? If you don't answer the question, then it makes me feel as though you haven't done enough judging on your own without other people influencing what you hear.
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Old 08-16-2014, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post
You don't get static noise ...
Is that what I said or is that the distorted version of what I said?
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Originally Posted by spkr View Post
So have I. One set of IC cables I had were noisier than the other, like static noise.
Your post didn't need distorting. It came that way.

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Old 08-16-2014, 09:51 PM
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actually they aren't all the same. Here's several reasons as to why they aren't.

First off, different HDMI cables are rated at different lengths. Some cables are only rated for 10.2Gbps for 15 feet, while others are rated at 50 feet or even longer.

Some cables are actually rated at much higher bandwidth which allows for better 4K video.

Here's a chart that rates only a small portion of what's on the market, but these cables are the mass marketed cables under $100 which are rated at shorter distances. The other factor is CL ratings. Some are rated for in wall installation, which is important for those with large projection systems that want to route their cables inside the walls and need longer lengths.

http://hdmi-cables-review.toptenreviews.com

Now, I've seen some of the super expensive HDMI cables rated at even higher bandwidth levels for shorter distances and I think they do that because if someone wants a longer cable, it still has the ability to do 20Gbps at much longer lengths.

If your application is for just short distances and you aren't doing high res 4K, etc. then it probably doesn't matter, but for those with 4K projectors in large installs where they need 50Feet or sometimes longer and they want to put in the walls with UL approval, then they have to go with something that is better, hence the higher price.

The cheaper cables might not be as well shielded, they might be using cheaper grade copper, they might not be using silver plated copper, they might not be using higher quality dielectric, or higher quality connectors, solder, etc.

I'm not suggesting you have to use expensive cables, but if you have a high end 4K projector, using high end BluRay players that costs $900 on up to the $135K players and you want the best video and audio quality at long lengths, you probably have to get more expensive cable.

I have also seen some cable mfg run jitter tests on the audio portion and there is a big difference in what they are measuring. If the audio portion is required and it's important, they can and have measured vast differences in the audio portion which for some is critical. Nothing worse than dropping a ton of money on a great system to have jitter from a cheap cable ruin the sound quality.

I personally would rather spend a little more getting a cable that I know works with all the equipment I have and will get in the future so I don't have to constantly swap cables out for stupid reasons. Also, I like to have a decent warranty where the mfg will fix or replace cables that might get damaged. Some companies offer better warranties and I would rather have that peace of mind.
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Old 08-16-2014, 10:03 PM
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And what are your thoughts on power cords? Which ones do you use?


http://www.head-fi.org/t/219202/its-...cords-reviewed
I haven't done any listening tests of power cables. I am VERY much on the fence on this one and I really understand that some of these companies get way out of hand with them. However, I have read that some mastering studios did play around with high end power cables and they were astounded by the results.

I guess it would depend on what cable, what piece of equipment you are using. I mean, some electronic equipment comes with cheap grade power cables. In terms of power cables, I really can't say 100% for or against super expensive power cables, but I haven't been in certain conditions that might require better cables.

If someone told me that it's very crucial in environments where they have lots of high current power amps in large installations, i might think that's plausible. I've seen home theater installations where the cabling gets rather messy and since I've been in computer data centers where they have literally tons of cables, if the cables can't be moved away from analog and digital cables, power cables can cause problems. So I would have to do a lot more evaluations and be in scenarios where it would make sense.

I wish companies that made expensive power cables would show measurement tests of equipment where they replaced the stock cable with a more expensive cable and showed some sort of meaningful measurement that makes me think it's worthwhile, I will admit that that would help.

I would just suggest that if you want to play around with them, go right ahead, but I would just use demo cables so you aren't spending any money and if you hear a difference and it makes sense to do it, then that's entirely up to that person.

I did do an experiment with a bass player as he had a bass amp with a detachable power cord and I gave him a power cable and he played his bass and he told me he could hear and feel more bottom end, but I wasn't doing anything other than allowed him to tell me what he heard and felt. His bass was a $10K custom made Alembic bass that's one of the more articulate and cleanest basses on the market and he can hear every little nuance of that bass, so if he tells me he heard and felt a difference, then what am I going to say? He didn't? No, I can't do that. I can see how there might be some power amps that might benefit from better cables. I mean power amps driving lots of bass speakers demand that current immediately and any way there is power loss on any level can sometimes make a difference. i've also been told, but haven't tried it out yet, that some cables have filters in them where digital equipment might benefit depending on the equipment. I might try a power cable on my power DAC since the amp and electronics are digital. I've been told that it might make a difference, but again, i haven't tried that yet.

Again, I'm still on the fence, so until I actually see/hear it first hand, I'm not going to say yes or no.
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Old 08-16-2014, 10:18 PM
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According to ArnyK, Monoprice 18 AWG
That's funny.

I would think he would recommend 11 ga of that brand.
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Old 08-16-2014, 11:36 PM
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Really? Just because you say so doesn't mean it's true. I only asked you how you evaluate cables and you just give me some silly response with nothing to back up your statement. I should have known not to waste my time with someone that is biased and will conjure up anything to not be open minded.

If you can't explain how you evaluate cables, then it makes me feel as if you just did some short term tests which are probably meaningless.

What led you to believe that they don't make a difference? Explain how you evaluate cables to give you the illusion that they don't make a difference? Please explain your methodology for deciding that? Have you gotten older where you can't hear like you used to? Have you trashed your ears listening to loud music? Do you listen to highly compressed audio? Do you listen to mostly 5.1 vs 2 channel. Please explain what defining moment you had that made you switch from higher end cables to cheap cables? Maybe I'll try the cheap cables to see if they are as good as the cables I currently have?

Without explaining yourself, you come off like someone that's bitter or something else.
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Why don't you mention that site to Bruce Brisson. He can probably explain why this site might be misleading. Now, I will tell you that there are ways to mislead both sides, it's easily done. I can conjure up ways for you to not hear any difference just like I can conjure up a test for you to be able to hear a difference. It's actually easy to conjure up both sides. It's making sure that the listener can't do a long term evaluation or picking out cables that are very similar or very dissimilar, or listening to bad recordings, loud volume levels that cause ear fatigue preventing you from hearing everything. Lots of ways to disprove and prove differences in cables.

Now, if you want to read some half baked site that hasn't tested every cable on the market and done every possible test that cables mfg have done to prove their technology, then all I can say is that it's a misleading website that hasn't tested everything.

My first question is to ask the person that made the site what their credentials are for listening to audio equipment? Someone like a mastering engineer that spends their days listening to 1st and 2nd generation recordings who's job is to make a better recording is reliant on the equipment they use. The guy who created this site doesn't sound like someone that actually knows how to listen to cables.

Some of things I might agree with, but there are many things I don't. Yeah, those cable stands i'm up in the air about since I've never used them to tell if they actually do anything but help in cable management and gives the user that ability to keep cables away from other cables. If you have ever been in an environment with a lot of power cables and audio cables and digital cables, you know that putting power cables too close to other cables may cause some problems, so that's about all they might be actually doing, but again, I think they are just a fancy way of cable management so they don't really improve sound as much as they prevent problems, so I see those as more of a preventative measure to keep cables away from one another in situations where they have lots of cables and power cables in the same proximity.

As far as the tests that they showed like the Monster cable tester. I don't use those type of tests to persuade me one way or another because it's been designed to prove one thing.

They mentioned damping as a myth. I'm not in a position to comment on that. However, with digital cables, I've been told that damping is critical in digital SPDIF cables, but that's different than speaker cables or analog interconnects. I've never read by the people I listen to that mentioned damping as a critical factor with speaker cables or analog interconnects so i can't comment on that.

What's wrong with doing listening tests where you aren't playing at high volumes that can cause short term hearing damage? I do that for all listening tests of equipment. I also will sometimes turn the volume even lower to get a sense of how well the product (regardless of what it is) does low level detail. Some products are only good at one volume level and some are good at a wider listening range, so changing the volume levels can give the listener the ability to hear how the product responds to low medium and high listening levels, but i do keep the volume level down below a harmful level as ear fatigue will prevent one from conducting a proper evaluation of anything in the audio world.

Also, the person that created that website didn't conduct any articulation measurements of any kind. Only did a limited number of tests with a limited number of cables, so it's very incomplete. Also, they didn't really go into all of the different types of copper wire where the levels of purity change drastically and they have measurements to back up the fact that the super high OFC quality copper is much better than the low grade copper used in the low end cheap cables.

Plus, the bottom line is, have you heard a difference in cables in your own listening tests and ultimately let you decide without anyone telling you what sounds better or worse? I've done plenty of evaluation of cables over the years and there are cables that are definitely better sounding and I can't deny that fact. I can't tolerate listening to a system that's harsh sounding. It causes ear fatigue and I'm well aware of that. I bought some relatively low end powered speakers for my computer for causal listening and the interconnects I had originally were good quality, but I noticed I couldn't listen to my system for longer than about 15 minutes as it was just too harsh sounding. I tried another set of interconnects that were relatively inexpensive ($90 a pair) and that's not a ton of money. I heard such a difference it was undeniable. I could then listen to my system all day long without any ear fatigue, and I could actually turn it up to higher levels without distortion and it was actually kind of strange how good sounding these speaker were with high resolution tracks. That solidified that even relatively inexpensive cables on an inexpensive system can greatly improve what you have. So, whenever someone tells me that there is no difference in sound quality, I just shake my head and know that they aren't examining things as well as they should.

I like to be my own judge and definitely not listen to those that I don't think are qualified listeners.

What brands of cables have you personally done any long term evaluations of and how do you evaluate cables? If you don't answer the question, then it makes me feel as though you haven't done enough judging on your own without other people influencing what you hear.
Gentlemen, we've got another shill here. He memorized what ramblings to use in attempts to diffuse objectivity replies. He obviously has done this on other forums.

drblank, your audio cable business slow these days? I've got a solution for you that will gurantee your sales shoot up. Post positive results favoring expensive cables in double blind tests. You're welcome.
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Old 08-16-2014, 11:42 PM
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...using high end BluRay players that costs $900 on up to the $135K players
I'm sorry, did I read this right? A Blu Ray player that costs $135,000? Please provide more info. Actually please provide a link to a website for the company selling such an item. I really want to see this.

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Old 08-16-2014, 11:53 PM
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Gentlemen, we've got another shill here. He memorized what ramblings to use in attempts to diffuse objectivity replies. He obviously has done this on other forums.

drblank, your audio cable business slow these days? I've got a solution for you that will gurantee your sales shoot up. Post positive results favoring expensive cables in double blind tests. You're welcome.
MIT Cables does do a lot of objective measurements at their factory, plus they have hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of test equipment that most people don't have access to, they are running tests that they know how to run that a lot others don't, and I am not going to spend tens of thousands of dollars to try to prove with objective measurements when my home audio system I only paid $7K for, and most of it I bought used. I think if you are someone with abilities to listen to your equipment that your time would be much better spent either going to a dealer and listening to products yourself or get demo cables to try out at home before you make a purchasing decision. It's a lot cheaper than trying to duplicate objective measurements that some of these cable mfg are doing.

My job as a consumer is to figure out what my budget is, what I can live with and what I can't, and figure out a way to do my own evaluations with whatever equipment I have and at this point it's only my stereo. So, if someone wants to interview all of the high end cable mfg to actually know what tests they do, buy the same high precision/high resolution impedance test equipment and high precision network analyzers and other equipment they use and run the same tests, I think people are wasting their time trying to run tests that aren't the same and using less precision test equipment.


Before most people buy a car, they usually test drive the thing and specs are useful to certain point. Unfortunatley, the audio world doesn't have clear cut standards that all companies have to live by in terms of publishing technical information. I truly wish there was and that the information was a good indicator of quality of sound and other measurements that help us match equipment together, but until then, it's misleading to perform tests that aren't complete or actually show quality of sound when some of the cable mfg are doing those types of tests.

Either way, I've learned how to listen to cables to a certain level of proficiency where I know what I want and don't want and since I have a limited budget, I know where I can get high quality cables that fit my budget and that's what is important to me. If you want to use tests by people that are incomplete or by people that haven't even tested high end cables and still spout that there's no difference, then I question your abilities to use common sense. I have yet to see anyone test every cable on the market using the best test equipment and proving anything that has to do with quality of sound in cables. i'm also not suggesting people buy the most expensive cables in the world either. I would suggest trying the cheapest interconnects and speaker cables from either MIT or Transparent because they will still give what I believe is better sound quality than your garden variety twisted stranded cables. If you don't, then keep your mouth shut about things you haven't experienced first hand. Most of the tests I've seen from non-cable mfg. aren't conclusive enough for me at all. Some are just as misleading as the mfg they try to attack. That one site someone mentioned even said they haven't tested these uber expensive cables, so how the heck can they slam something they haven't even tested? Because he can't afford them? Jeeez, sounds like some bitter person with low end test equipment that simply can't hear or afford high end gear. Oh well. Not my problem.

A shill? NO. I don't get paid to be pro cables, I just learned that certain brands are consistent in that they don't produce harsh sounding audio. That's the first and most important thing for me.

If you can't afford expensive cables, then don't talk about them like you have owned them and have experience with them. It's like a Bugatti Veyron, the only people that are really qualified to talk about it are present and past owners and that that have actually driven the car, otherwise it's kind of futile. People with lots of money aren't going to listen to those that have no money. that's the first thing you have to realize. the second thing is some people just want what they want and there is nothing you can do about it.

Now, if you have had an expensive cable in your house and have used one for several weeks/months, THEN I might listen to you because you have some first hand knowledge of the product. But when you haven't listened to the product, you haven't owned the product, you haven't tested the product, then you fall into the category of someone with NO EXPERIENCE ON ANY LEVEL ON THAT PRODUCT. Why should anyone listen to someone with no experience on a product compared to someone who does? Make sense?

I tell you what. I currently own a pair of MIT CVT Terminator 1 BiWire cables. Now, if someone can show OBJECTIVE measurements PROVING there is no difference in terms of quality of sound between this pair of cables and other pair of cables you have objectively measured, then i will see about getting a pair and trying them out and listening to my catalog of music to see if they SOUND the same. If not, then you really haven't shown one single shred of evidence proving your point. This goes for ANYONE.

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Old 08-17-2014, 12:39 AM
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I'm sorry, did I read this right? A Blu Ray player that costs $135,000? Please provide more info. Actually please provide a link to a website for the company selling such an item. I really want to see this.
GOLDMUND. It's built with more precision than the freaking space shuttle. They are actually sold out and they only make something like 25 a year. Yeah, I know it's ridiculous, but Goldmund is super expensive, cost no object stuff and it's for people that literally have more money than God (if you will). I wouldn't suggest going out a buying it, but if you have hundreds of millions of dollars, which plenty of people actually do have, what's $135K for a BluRay player? To those people, it's like us buying a pack of gum.

And you think that someone dropping $135K on a Goldmund BluRay player is concerned about saving money on a HDMI cable? Yeah right. Do you think the are going to buy Monoprice cables through Amazon for $5? Yeah right. They will simply ask the dealer what is the absolute best HDMI cables and if the dealer says XYZ and it costs $10K, the person will tell them without even THINKING about it, to order him/her whatever length they need and that's the extent of the conversation. No BS. They will drop money on high end gear REGARDLESS of cost because to them it's the amount of interest on their piles of cash in an afternoon. I think they sell a bunch of that stuff in Dubai. you know, the rich oil sheiks. Keep on buying that gasoline, they need a new HDMI cable. :-)

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Old 08-17-2014, 01:29 AM
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What would be a good matching speaker cable for this ::

Those are supposed to be nice speakers, but I haven't heard them in person.
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Old 08-17-2014, 02:08 AM
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Why do I think the cable's frequency response would be audible?
Please let me list some possible reasons why:

(1) The very concept of frequency response and its effect on sound quality on an octave by octave basis may not be familiar.

(2) Never having the opportunity or resources to personally measure the effects of cables on frequency response, so it is all just an abstract concept.

(3) No personal understanding of the effects of different variations in frequency response. IOW, looking at a frequency response curve and not being able to think: "That sort of frequency response curve will color the sound like this".


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Because I've heard it first hand many times.
How does that claim square with the fact that good cables have vanishingly small variations in frequency response if you measure it, and if you perform a reliable subjective test?


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If you can't hear it, then that's not my problem.
It would appear that since the vanishingly small variations in frequency in good cables are way to small to be heard, the above statement describes an imaginary event - an illusion.

Consider the HDMI cables that most modern audio systems are tied together with. They are digital. If there are any significant signal losses in them, those losses are either so large that they obviously impact the operation of the system (IOW no sound or randomly disrupted sound or clicks and pops) or they have no audible impact at all. I'm not talking vanishing, I'm talking none at all.


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It all depends on the cable and what you are comparing it to. If you are comparing two cables with similar response curves than they should sound similar, but if you listen to cables with much different curves, they should sound different. Now, if one person can't hear the difference, that's all dependent on that person's ability to hear/listen, not everyone has trained themselves on how to listen.
I've personally measured the response curves and noise and distortion of cables and if they are analog and of even marginal quality, then the response variations they cause are not audible. If they are digital and they are free of obvious audible flaws then the errors are not vanishing, they simply don't exist and can't exist.


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When you listen to music, you are listening to the entire "system". Room, recording, equipment and all of that works together to produce the end result that you are listening to.
Of course, no way to dispute that.

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If you don't care about the sound quality of your "system", then that's a personal choice/decision.
Irrelevant to most audiophiles whose cables are vast overkill as compared to the actual technical requirements.
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Old 08-17-2014, 02:10 AM
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MIT Cables does do a lot of objective measurements at their factory, plus they have hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of test equipment that most people don't have access to, they are running tests that they know how to run that a lot others don't, and I am not going to spend tens of thousands of dollars to try to prove with objective measurements when my home audio system I only paid $7K for, and most of it I bought used. I think if you are someone with abilities to listen to your equipment that your time would be much better spent either going to a dealer and listening to products yourself or get demo cables to try out at home before you make a purchasing decision. It's a lot cheaper than trying to duplicate objective measurements that some of these cable mfg are doing.
Please provide a technical description of these tests or the international standards that they are testing for conformance to.
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Old 08-17-2014, 02:14 AM
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According to ArnyK, Monoprice 18 AWG
False claim/joke. I would recommend the appropriate cable for its length.

Its too bad that some feel the need to belittle others by stuffing dumb words in their mouths as a joke.

The author of the above post is documented to be an advocate of high end cables, so this alleged humor has an obvious agenda.

Just goes to show that no good deed goes unpunished.
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Old 08-17-2014, 02:15 AM
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Please let me list some possible reasons why:

(1) The very concept of frequency response and its effect on sound quality on an octave by octave basis may not be familiar.

(2) Never having the opportunity or resources to personally measure the effects of cables on frequency response, so it is all just an abstract concept.

(3) No personal understanding of the effects of different variations in frequency response. IOW, looking at a frequency response curve and not being able to think: "That sort of frequency response curve will color the sound like this".




How does that claim square with the fact that good cables have vanishingly small variations in frequency response if you measure it, and if you perform a reliable subjective test?




It would appear that since the vanishingly small variations in frequency in good cables are way to small to be heard, the above statement describes an imaginary event - an illusion.

Consider the HDMI cables that most modern audio systems are tied together with. They are digital. If there are any significant signal losses in them, those losses are either so large that they obviously impact the operation of the system (IOW no sound or randomly disrupted sound or clicks and pops) or they have no audible impact at all. I'm not talking vanishing, I'm talking none at all.




I've personally measured the response curves and noise and distortion of cables and if they are analog and of even marginal quality, then the response variations they cause are not audible. If they are digital and they are free of obvious audible flaws then the errors are not vanishing, they simply don't exist and can't exist.




Of course, no way to dispute that.



Irrelevant to most audiophiles whose cables are vast overkill as compared to the actual technical requirements.
You've personally measured the response curves and noise and distortion of cables? OK, which cables SPECIFICALLY? ALL cables? Have you tested the cables I have? Where are these measurements?

Did you personally listen to the MIT CVT Terminator 1 bi wire cables in a lengthy listening test? If so, what cables did you compare them against in a listening test?
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Old 08-17-2014, 02:37 AM
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You've personally measured the response curves and noise and distortion of cables?
Of course.

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OK, which cables SPECIFICALLY? ALL cables? Have you tested the cables I have?
Of course not. I measured good quality commodity cables, not some overpriced audio jewelry intended for the poorly educated and gullible.

There is a key point here. If good commodity cables have vanishing or even zero noise and distortion, then how can they be improved on at any cost?


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Where are these measurements?

There is nothing special about the measurements and they are easy enough to duplicate. I made the measurements, observed the results, saw nothing special or concerning to me, and moved on.

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Did you personally listen to the MIT CVT Terminator 1 bi wire cables in a lengthy listening test?
Of course not. I did listening tests that involved good quality commodity cables, not some overpriced audio jewelry intended for the poorly educated and gullible.

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If so, what cables did you compare them against in a listening test?
The best cable - no cable at all or an absolutely minimal cable only inches long.

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Old 08-17-2014, 02:39 AM
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Please provide a technical description of these tests or the international standards that they are testing for conformance to.
Go talk to MIT Cables. There are no international standards for measuring quality of sound for speaker or analog interconnect cables. That doesn't exist that I'm aware of. I wish they did, but each cable mfg is responsible to do their own testing under their own methodologies with the equipment they choose. They do what are called "articulation measurements" along with looking at other measurements and harmonic structure. They also look at phase, and other things, but you need to talk to them about how they measure their cables. I just do my own listening tests because that's all I can do because I don't own expensive test equipment. To my knowledge, Bruce at MIT has something like a couple of hundred thousand worth of test equipment at his home test bench and the same equipment at the factory, some of which is custom made software that he and HP co-developed that no one else has, so some of the tests he does he might be the only person conducting certain tests. But again, you would have to talk to Bruce about it.

Have you ever measured MIT cables? Have you ever had lengthy listening tests after you measured them? What's your experience with that brand? Just curious.
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Old 08-17-2014, 02:39 AM
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Really? Just because you say so doesn't mean it's true.
That would seem to apply to every post on this forum, even the writer of the statement above.

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I only asked you how you evaluate cables and you just give me some silly response with nothing to back up your statement. I should have known not to waste my time with someone that is biased and will conjure up anything to not be open minded.
The question would appear to be self-answering if one can read and understand English and excercise some simple logic.


The word Evaluate means:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/evaluate

1. to determine or fix the value of
2. to determine the significance, worth, or condition of usually by careful appraisal and study

So what is the right way to determine the significance, worth, or condition by careful appraisal and study?

It seems like some evidence gathering is required, that is just common sense.


So what kind of evidence to gather?

Common sense suggests that it is important to gather evidence from unbiased sources - that is sources that have no financial interest in the outcome of the evaluation. Therefore the last place to gather evidence would be companies that will profit from the outcome of the evaluation if it is in their interest.

While there are other guidelines that are important such as relevance, at this point we have disqualified or deprioritized about half of the posts on this thread on the grounds that they are obviously based on statements by for profit organizations that have based their financial success on their being a certain outcome to the evaluation.

If we had no other choices then this might be acceptable, but we do have literally dozens of other sources, many of which I previously listed in this post:

Expensive cables a waste of $$
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Old 08-17-2014, 02:42 AM
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Go talk to MIT Cables.
Not my job. I have explained why MIT Cables are generally among the poorest of all sources to reference, but in this case a claim explicitly involveing them was made and I have asked you to document that claim.

You appear to have refused, and it is reasonable to believe that being intimately familiar with their business operation and you know that they cannot make a good showing for themselves.

Therefore I will follow your lead and not go directly to MIT cables and ask for the reasonable documentation that I mentioned.

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