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Expensive cables a waste of $$

24K views 594 replies 66 participants last post by  markrubin 
#1 ·
As a electronics and electrical engineer, I can tell you wasting money on expensive brand cables, weather it be for speaker wire, audio component cables or HDMI video cables are a waste of money. One might pump a signal down a cable and look at the wave with a oscilloscope or spectrum and see a minute difference, but to the imperfect human ear, there's no way in hell you're going to tell the difference.
Especially if your over the age of 10. The human ear Deteriorates as we age, loosing effective hearing from 20,000 Hz (the top of the range down to 1000 Hz, every day of your life. So spending extra money on expensive cables won't do a thing. For speakers, get some standard copper 18g - 16g wire, and be done with it. For component RCA plug cables, getting the gold connector types are a joke. You ain't gonna hear it. Same for the digital HDMI cables with gold connectors...they aren't real gold to begin with, and even if they were you aren't going to notice the difference. The extra money you save, spend on decent speakers and a center speaker. With a half way quality theater amp of 70 watts a channel, the speakers make all the difference in the world. And Ohh... power filters for your components..... B.S. The transformer converting the AC to DC for all of the circuitry along with filtering capacitors take care of all of the filtering you need. :D
 
#22 ·
Since you mentioned that thread, there was what I found to be an interesting post there about allected recent technological advances related to magic cables that didn't get a lot of play before the thread was locked:

drblank said:
1. Cable geometry
2. Dielectric
3. Introduction of filters wired in parallel
4. Cable mfg through the use of high precision cable winders that the high speed winders other use simply can't make.
5. High precision measurement equipment allowing them to make more precise measurements during the R&D phase and mfg phases.
6. Active shielding. I think Synergistic and Audioquest do this. I haven't tried either of these two technologies, but some people seem to like them.
7. Some companies are using flat wire vs stranded wire or solid core.
8. Metallurgy, as some are using silver cables, copper, etc. Different grades, etc..
9. don't laugh but cryogenically treated.
So what about these things?

For example - there is a cable geometry that can provide a large measurable decrease in speaker cable inductance. It's called coaxial cable, it has been known about for decades and I know of no high end speaker cables that are made that way.

As far as dielectrics go, I know of nothing new in that area going back a decade or more. Speaker cables being parts of low impedance systems don't care much ab out cable capacitance within reason. There have been some squirrelly amps that objected to some cables with very high capacitance, but that was decades ago.

Filters wired in parallel. Are there any? The ones I know of are wired in series-parallel and they go back a decade or more. MIT cables proudly claims that they have been doing what they do for about three decades. Nothing new there!

High precision cable winders. In fact few if any high end cable manufacturers make their own cable. Some claims about esoteric stranding have been made, but in fact stranding is very robust technically. You can twist clockwise, counterclockwise, and even insulate every strand and it doesn't make a lot of difference.

Active shielding. This refers to biasing the shield, usually with a 9 volt battery. I can't even imagine what this is supposed to do technically, except scare the $#!! out of audiophiles when they find that the battery went dead and they've been listening to unbiased cables for the last year and never noticed. ;-)

Metallurgy. As has been pointed out by others, copper is wonderful stuff. Highly conductive, very linear, and only a little less conductive than silver. The silver situation can be compensated for with trivial amounts of additional copper as if it would matter.

Cryogenic treatment. Please see former comments about plain old well-annealed copper.
 
#3 ·
Your post may start another war here.:eek:
 
#21 ·
AFAIK the gold is real on most audio connectors that look like gold, there just isn't a whole lot of it.

If they are used a lot, the gold being ultra-soft, gets worn off and you are stuck with what is under it which might be good, but that's hard to tell because it is covered with gold.
 
#6 ·
Metallurgist

Are you a metallurgist, too?

No, but when you go to electronics school, you learn that copper is the best conductor money can buy. And that gold plated stuff is used in Space Craft, for NASA and DoD. Usually to mitigate corrosion. But with no air in space, that rational is rather rediculous also. Did you know that is you solder a piece of copper, it can not corrode?

No I'm not a metallurgist, but after working on programs as an engineer, like the F4-A Phantom Jet Fighter, DD963 NAVY electronic Warfare equipment, E2C Hawkeye airplane, NASA Hubble Space Telescope, NASA Space Shuttle, and Missile Defense programs, I can provide you some of the most expert recommendations of where to drink the best cold craft beer, as well as who serves the heaftiest Jack Daniels on the Rocks. :D
 
#7 ·
when you go to electronics school, you learn that copper is the best conductor money can buy
Silver is better, by a whopping 5%. The reason we don't use silver is that paying a hundred times more so you can use a 5% smaller gauge wire isn't logical... unless you're an audiophool. :rolleyes:

And that gold plated stuff is used in Space Craft, for NASA and DoD. Usually to mitigate corrosion. But with no air in space, that rational is rather rediculous also.

The gold keeps corrosion from occurring before the launch. The salt laden moist air at Cape Canaveral isn't exactly metal friendly.

What you've posted is pretty much correct, but not exactly groundbreaking news here.
 
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#26 · (Edited)
#29 ·
Hmm, IT would seem lots of experts here,and lots of guys named IKE- my kids are both IKE's-( I know everything)
What I do know is the RCA's you get with equipment are sufficient to pass a signal, but at like
$0.03 each, how good can they be?
I choose cables that are medium priced, and I bought a can of Deoxit that took all this red crap off the tips.
Seen cables that cost as much as anew avr. To me-insane! But-if you have it to piss away - why not? Must agree though, there must be a point,where the "buck stops".
I quote PT Barnum : " There is a sucker born every minute"
And,I have met folks with lots of money, who really believe you get what you pay for,that is not always true.
 
#30 ·
Hmm, IT would seem lots of experts here,and lots of guys named IKE- my kids are both IKE's-( I know everything)
It is also so much fun being talked down to. ;-)

What I do know is the RCA's you get with equipment are sufficient to pass a signal, but at like
$0.03 each, how good can they be?
How good do they have to be?

IME they are good for a limited number of insertions, and after that you either massage their looseness out with a pair of pliers or tolerate a bad connections. Cable Chiropractic, I guess. Not my idea of fun.

Thing is that these days most moderrn audio systems have zero, count them zero RCA connectors so this is a kind of a discussion of straw men.
 
#39 ·
Question numero uno: How long before cheap cables (and ultra expensive ones too) start fading away (sound quality degradation)?
Simply put, how long they last; that you can clearly hear and measure that they're not up to it no more and that it's time for replacement?

Numero dos: Do cables (wires) vibrate? ...Oscillation, vibration, ...and @ what frequencies and @ how many pulsations per second?

Thank you for your cooperation.

P.S. By the way, there are differences in sound between various cables (wires, strings, cords, chords, choirs, chorals, corals, ...).
I've heard it, several times, between different components, instruments, ...sound, music, tonality, richness, fullness, tones, vibrations, clairvoyance, clarity, detail, highs, lows, mids, meds, betweens, space, atmosphere, background, neutrality, euphony, accuracy, naturalness, musicality, colors, black, white, bright, chirurgical, analytic, symposium, hallucinogen, multicolor, ...each cable (wire) has its own sig.

P.P.S. To the OP; where can I find your cable store?
 
#62 ·
Question numero uno: How long before cheap cables (and ultra expensive ones too) start fading away (sound quality degradation)?
Very likely that this may never happen.

Simply put, how long they last; that you can clearly hear and measure that they're not up to it no more and that it's time for replacement?
Failing cables generally fail by loosing electrical continuity, and that is pretty easy to figure out by means of detecting the total loss of sound for that connection.


Numero dos: Do cables (wires) vibrate? ...Oscillation, vibration, ...and @ what frequencies and @ how many pulsations per second?

Wires may mechanically vibrate, but generally that has no effect on the signals passing through them.

Think about say, a vehicle that is driven over a rough surface at a high speed. What parts of its electrical system are allowed to fail? Answer: none! Are the wires in that vehicle vibrating? QED.
 
#42 ·
Just a general comment to those seeking after audio repentance, from others: This is Trollville, and this tread is just a continuation of HWY 666. Be cognizant of this fact at all times.

We should not permit such conversations to continue at length, especially not for days on end, in the top ten, within this corner of the forum, if you will.

All of the questions within this thread and the recently locked thread; have all been asked and answered, as best that we're all able, over and over and over.

All that remains is that everyone divides and heads for their respective camps, of like minded individuals.

The End :confused:...
 
#55 ·
Post 3 I predicted war.
Post 16 I thought there would be peace.
I predict another Thread being locked.
 
#51 ·
I've been an audio nut since I got my first two Albums ( Abbey Road & Strange Days) and a "record player" for a birthday long ago..., and I think this issue has been discussed ever since then. I agree 100% with The Neff (although I'm not sure on the gold plating...).


IMHO folks should be doing a double blind test on this sort of issue. ie => Can you hear a positive difference or not? Pretty simple. In reality it's all about the Speakers. Most OEMs can make pretty decent electronic gear (the Vacuum Tube world is totally different) and folks typically short change themselves when buying Speakers. The "old" rule of thumb used to be spend half of the budget on the electronic boxes, and the other half on the Speakers.


If folks have more money later then they can try "high end" speaker cables, or power conditioners (which I think are beneficial for terrible situations with bad harmonics and/or voltage swings on the power feed - not normal installs). High end HDMI cables are really all about advertising and more margin ($) to the seller (most don't make their own cables).


One tip is to keep all your cables short as practical. (lessens possible radio interference.) Use one level higher gauge for your speakers than you think, and you'll probably never have to think about them again. Unless of course you read threads like this one...:rolleyes:.:D.
 
#63 ·
TheNeff said:
As a electronics and electrical engineer, ...

And when you go to electronics school, you learn that copper is the best conductor money can buy. And that gold plated stuff is used in Space Craft, for NASA and DoD. Usually to mitigate corrosion. But with no air in space, that rational is rather ridiculous also. Did you know that is you solder a piece of copper, it can not corrode?

No I'm not a metallurgist, but after working on programs as an engineer, like the F4-A Phantom Jet Fighter, DD963 NAVY electronic Warfare equipment, E2C Hawkeye airplane, NASA Hubble Space Telescope, NASA Space Shuttle, and Missile Defense programs, I can provide you some of the most expert recommendations of where to drink the best cold craft beer, as well as who serves the heaftiest Jack Daniels on the Rocks. :D
amirm said:
Where did you say you worked again?
There Amir, just above, in red color.
 
#71 ·
I have little bottles of DeOxit and DeOxit Gold

I like the idea of contact cleaning, preservation, and enhancement.

I wonder if DeOxit Gold doesn't have a little Stabilant-22 (or equivalent) in its top secret formulation.
 
#90 · (Edited)
Expensive cables are important.. You just spent $70,000 on stereo speakers, $20000 for two monoblock amps, $15000 on a pre-amp, $8000 on a dac. Then you're gonna hook all those up with monoprice cables? Heck no.. It's about luxury. The cable quality have to match everything else. Who cares if the "expensive" cables sound no different than monoprice cables..

These


Paired with these


No way..
If your speaker wire does not have a battery pack then it ain't luxury.
 
#101 · (Edited)
What would be a good matching speaker cable for this ::

One that has pure copper conductors of sufficient gauge, which you can determine by using this:
http://www.bcae1.com/images/swfs/speakerwireselectorassistant.swf

Pure copper isn't a necessity, but with other materials you would have to do a lot more research to find the correct minimum gauge requirement, and any slight savings wouldn't be worth the bother.

Neither the looks not the cost of a speaker has any bearing whatsoever on what cable should be used with it.

However what I can't get past is an "electronics and electrical engineer" saying things like "a electronic" and using the word "loosing".
I doubt you're really an engineer, but aside from that I agree with your point
.

Just because he didn't get an 'A' in English Composition doesn't mean he's not really an engineer. Not that it matters. Those on the other side of this particular fence most assuredly are not electrical engineers, let alone professional loudspeaker designers. :rolleyes:

And what are your thoughts on power cords?

I recommend that you use them. You could power your gear with Tesla coils, but it's much easier to plug them into the power grid.
 
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#105 ·
actually they aren't all the same. Here's several reasons as to why they aren't.

First off, different HDMI cables are rated at different lengths. Some cables are only rated for 10.2Gbps for 15 feet, while others are rated at 50 feet or even longer.

Some cables are actually rated at much higher bandwidth which allows for better 4K video.

Here's a chart that rates only a small portion of what's on the market, but these cables are the mass marketed cables under $100 which are rated at shorter distances. The other factor is CL ratings. Some are rated for in wall installation, which is important for those with large projection systems that want to route their cables inside the walls and need longer lengths.

http://hdmi-cables-review.toptenreviews.com

Now, I've seen some of the super expensive HDMI cables rated at even higher bandwidth levels for shorter distances and I think they do that because if someone wants a longer cable, it still has the ability to do 20Gbps at much longer lengths.

If your application is for just short distances and you aren't doing high res 4K, etc. then it probably doesn't matter, but for those with 4K projectors in large installs where they need 50Feet or sometimes longer and they want to put in the walls with UL approval, then they have to go with something that is better, hence the higher price.

The cheaper cables might not be as well shielded, they might be using cheaper grade copper, they might not be using silver plated copper, they might not be using higher quality dielectric, or higher quality connectors, solder, etc.

I'm not suggesting you have to use expensive cables, but if you have a high end 4K projector, using high end BluRay players that costs $900 on up to the $135K players and you want the best video and audio quality at long lengths, you probably have to get more expensive cable.

I have also seen some cable mfg run jitter tests on the audio portion and there is a big difference in what they are measuring. If the audio portion is required and it's important, they can and have measured vast differences in the audio portion which for some is critical. Nothing worse than dropping a ton of money on a great system to have jitter from a cheap cable ruin the sound quality.

I personally would rather spend a little more getting a cable that I know works with all the equipment I have and will get in the future so I don't have to constantly swap cables out for stupid reasons. Also, I like to have a decent warranty where the mfg will fix or replace cables that might get damaged. Some companies offer better warranties and I would rather have that peace of mind.
 
#102 ·
Anyone that claims there new expensive speakers cables made a huge difference needs to go take one of the drivers out of there speakers and take a look at how they are terminated to the drivers and go examine the crossovers in the speaker. Chances are they won't have some crazy expensive gold plated connectors....lol
Yet they are in the signal chain from the amp, so go figure :)
 
#136 ·
I am wondering why when a statement like the above
Gets posted in a cable debate thread it ALWAYS gets
Completely ignored??

Seems to me it would be pointless to spend big money
On speaker cable and then ignore the generic 18 or 20
Gauge wire and solder/connectors INSIDE your speakers!

Or am I missing something??
 
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