coaxial cabl vs RCA cable - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 90 Old 08-25-2014, 04:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Lightbulb coaxial cabl vs RCA cable

Hi Team,


want to buy VSX-323-K model, but my concern is that can I provide input audio from another room(away from 30feet) by coaxial cable (or only RCA audio cable required). 2nd, for output can I use coaxial cable (30 feet) for bathroom (without amplifier) without any qauality comromize.

Thanks in Advance.
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post #2 of 90 Old 08-25-2014, 05:08 AM
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Technically there's no such thing as 'RCA cable'. The plugs are RCA. Interconnect cables using RCA plugs are often called RCA cables, but that's a misnomer, they're correctly referred to coaxial cables with RCA terminations. Line level signals can be run to 100 feet with no ill effect.

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post #3 of 90 Old 08-25-2014, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post
Technically there's no such thing as 'RCA cable'. The plugs are RCA. Interconnect cables using RCA plugs are often called RCA cables, but that's a misnomer, they're correctly referred to coaxial cables with RCA terminations. Line level signals can be run to 100 feet with no ill effect.
Actually, as in factually; not all cables that are terminated with RCA connections are coaxial, but are more prominently a variant of common multi-conductor cables, such 18/2, 20/2, 22/2 with a common drain, with or without shielding.

However, in the context of video cable, RG 59, & RG 6 are most prevalent in residential applications.

In digital audio transmissions RG 6 is standard.

In analog audio multi conductors are standard.

The voltage drop is based in the signal type, gauge and wire type...

At 100 feet, losses will be experienced in all of the aforementioned variables.

At 30 feet digital audio over RG6 won't be problematic, however, analog audio will suffer, from an audiophile perspective, but not a distributed audio perspective.

Analog video at 30 feet, over RG 6 or 59 won't suffer massive losses.
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post #4 of 90 Old 08-26-2014, 02:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Garidy View Post
Actually, as in factually; not all cables that are terminated with RCA connections are coaxial, but are more prominently a variant of common multi-conductor cables, such 18/2, 20/2, 22/2 with a common drain, with or without shielding.

However, in the context of video cable, RG 59, & RG 6 are most prevalent in residential applications.

In digital audio transmissions RG 6 is standard.

In analog audio multi conductors are standard.
Not for unbalanced audio...it would be coax of some sort, single conductor with shield. Balanced audio would be a twisted pair, typically shielded, but not always.
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The voltage drop is based in the signal type, gauge and wire type...
Actually based on signal frequency, source impedance, cable resistance, cable capacitance, cable inductance,...and termination impedance (load).
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At 100 feet, losses will be experienced in all of the aforementioned variables.
The loss would depend on a lot of factors outside of just the cable, like source Z, termination Z, etc.
At 100ft, typical RG6 driven from a 1000 ohm source (typical consumer audio) is down 3dB at 100KHz. Not exactly what you'd call significant.
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At 30 feet digital audio over RG6 won't be problematic, however, analog audio will suffer, from an audiophile perspective, but not a distributed audio perspective.
, ...begging to differ, 30' of RG6 would have a loss of 3dB at 330KHz. That's RF, not audio. Don't think any audiophile would complain, since his power amps have gone home well below that, and his speakers don't make it past 30KHz on a good day. From the audiophile perspective, he's lost it without any cable involved.
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Analog video at 30 feet, over RG 6 or 59 won't suffer massive losses.
...because it's not driven or terminated like audio. Video is driven from a 75 ohm source, terminated in 75 ohms, thus effectively swamping out cable C.

Short answer for the OP, 30' of "rca cable" will be fine. Make sure it's shielded, the cheapest stuff may not be. 30' video cables with RCA connectors at each end are fine for audio too.
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post #5 of 90 Old 08-26-2014, 10:46 AM
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In digital audio transmissions RG 6 is standard.
Not correct, at least on the professional side. The most popular 75ohm digital audio cable is Belden 1505 which is an RG59 type. And now a lot of 1855 is used which is even smaller. Digital audio (-3db @ 6mhz for 48khz stereo pair) does not require near the bandwidth of even SDTV digital video so cables losse are not that critical.

Aside from cost, the smaller size is the main benefit in dense installations.
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post #6 of 90 Old 08-27-2014, 01:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post
Not correct, at least on the professional side. The most popular 75ohm digital audio cable is Belden 1505 which is an RG59 type. And now a lot of 1855 is used which is even smaller.
...unless you use the "professional" version of AES/EBU/AES3, which is balanced, XLR, and 110 ohm twisted pair...

But none of this matters to the OP, he's going 30ft with analog line level audio. Any coax will be fine.
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post #7 of 90 Old 08-27-2014, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by manas2mail View Post
my concern is that can I provide input audio from another room(away from 30feet) by coaxial cable (or only RCA audio cable required).
We are assuming that you mean digital (probably SPDIF) when you say "input audio by coaxial cable" and that you mean line level analog audio when you say "RCA audio cable required". Either of these are possible - without too much technical discussion, cable capacitance and shielding are going to be your biggest issues and can be overcome with a quality cable (depending on how much high frequency fidelity you expect).

Read this web page for pretty good layman explaination: http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/audio/index.htm

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Originally Posted by manas2mail View Post
2nd, for output can I use coaxial cable (30 feet) for bathroom (without amplifier) without any qauality comromize.
An output "without amplifier" sounds like you are trying to drive a speaker from the amplifier of your AVR - is that correct? In that case, of course you would want to use a thicker gauge of speaker wire like 14awg - that would work fine. If you are outputting a line level analog signal for the bathroom that will use a separate amplifier (or amplified speakers), use the same type of cable as above.

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post #8 of 90 Old 08-27-2014, 08:34 AM
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...unless you use the "professional" version of AES/EBU/AES3, which is balanced, XLR, and 110 ohm twisted pair...
Unbalanced AES over coax is also "professional", and is often used because of the greater distances that can be used. 1000m over coax, vs. 100m over twisted pair.
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post #9 of 90 Old 08-27-2014, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by audio2xs View Post
Not for unbalanced audio...it would be coax of some sort, single conductor with shield. Balanced audio would be a twisted pair, typically shielded, but not always.
Actually based on signal frequency, source impedance, cable resistance, cable capacitance, cable inductance,...and termination impedance (load).

The loss would depend on a lot of factors outside of just the cable, like source Z, termination Z, etc.
At 100ft, typical RG6 driven from a 1000 ohm source (typical consumer audio) is down 3dB at 100KHz. Not exactly what you'd call significant.
, ...begging to differ, 30' of RG6 would have a loss of 3dB at 330KHz. That's RF, not audio. Don't think any audiophile would complain, since his power amps have gone home well below that, and his speakers don't make it past 30KHz on a good day. From the audiophile perspective, he's lost it without any cable involved.

...because it's not driven or terminated like audio. Video is driven from a 75 ohm source, terminated in 75 ohms, thus effectively swamping out cable C.

Short answer for the OP, 30' of "rca cable" will be fine. Make sure it's shielded, the cheapest stuff may not be. 30' video cables with RCA connectors at each end are fine for audio too.
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post #10 of 90 Old 08-27-2014, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post
Not correct, at least on the professional side. The most popular 75ohm digital audio cable is Belden 1505 which is an RG59 type. And now a lot of 1855 is used which is even smaller. Digital audio (-3db @ 6mhz for 48khz stereo pair) does not require near the bandwidth of even SDTV digital video so cables losse are not that critical.

Aside from cost, the smaller size is the main benefit in dense installations.
Not in consumer Coax SPDIF which is the context of this thread

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post #11 of 90 Old 08-27-2014, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Garidy View Post
Not in consumer Coax SPDIF which is the context of this thread
Well using RG6 for consumer SPDIF is just plain silly.

The problem is mechanical, not electrical. Fat RG6 is difficult if not nearly impossible to properly terminate into an RCA connector. Now you could use F or BNC adapters to RCA but that thick cable may end up breaking the jack off a PC board. The low loss RG6 does nothing for SPDIF in a residential situation. And as I noted above, it isn't used in pro applications either which can be hundreds of feet.

Now I know you can buy "audiophile" RG6 digital audio cables, but then why not with all the other snake oil audiophile products sold.

Plain cheap "included with" audio cables will work fine for SPDIF in most cases under six feet.

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post #12 of 90 Old 08-27-2014, 07:15 PM
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...unless you use the "professional" version of AES/EBU/AES3, which is balanced, XLR, and 110 ohm twisted pair...
True, but 110ohm balanced AES is losing in favor to coax more and more every year. Coax has higher installation density, lower cost, and higher distance performance. The only benefit balanced has is better noise immunity which is not much of an issue with routine digital signal transmission.

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post #13 of 90 Old 08-27-2014, 07:24 PM
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Well using RG6 for consumer SPDIF is just plain silly.

The problem is mechanical, not electrical. Fat RG6 is difficult if not nearly impossible to properly terminate into an RCA connector. Now you could use F or BNC adapters to RCA but that thick cable may end up breaking the jack off a PC board. The low loss RG6 does nothing for SPDIF in a residential situation. And as I noted above, it isn't used in pro applications either which can be hundreds of feet.

Now I know you can buy "audiophile" RG6 digital audio cables, but then why not with all the other snake oil audiophile products sold.

Plain cheap "included with" audio cables will work fine for SPDIF in most cases under six feet.
RG 6 coax cable is available in low skew formats. Your are referring standard structured wiring offerings.

I am speaker to impedance, inductance, capacitance, ingression and egression characteristics which characterize the transfer function qualities of the RG 6 requirements.

There are dozens of highly flexible, small diameter RG6 cable offerings from at least a few dozen manufacturers.

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True, but 110ohm balanced AES is losing in favor to coax more and more every year. Coax has higher installation density, lower cost, and higher distance performance. The only benefit balanced has is better noise immunity which is not much of an issue with routine digital signal transmission.
No this standard is losing no ground. As it is superior to consumer SPDIF variants.

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No this standard is losing no ground. As it is superior to consumer SPDIF variants.
Personally, I don't really care anymore. Not much use for just 4 channels at 24/96 anyway.
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Personally, I don't really care anymore. Not much use for just 4 channels at 24/96 anyway.
The AES3 Standards reach beyond the interconnect cable qualities , they define how Thea data is managed. These standards are superior to SPDIF especially at 24/96 and above.

So if you have access to it, you should use it.

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post #17 of 90 Old 08-27-2014, 10:19 PM
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RG 6 coax cable is available in low skew formats. Your are referring standard structured wiring offerings.

I am speaker to impedance, inductance, capacitance, ingression and egression characteristics which characterize the transfer function qualities of the RG 6 requirements.

There are dozens of highly flexible, small diameter RG6 cable offerings from at least a few dozen manufacturers.
What are you talking about?

1) Skew in cabling is a multi conductor problem. CAT cables have skew issues, HDMI cables have skew issues. A single coax cable cannot by it's self have skew.

2) LCR as well as shielding parameters apply to any cable. What's your point here?

3) Part of the RG specifications determine physical size. There is no such thing as a "miniature" RG6 because then it is no longer RG6. Now I would not be surprised if some audiophile cable vendor says "miniature RG6" but then consider the source.
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No this standard is losing no ground. As it is superior to consumer SPDIF variants.
Where do you get your information?

75ohm AES is the dominant standard in broadcast, production, and the recording industries today. Sure there is still plenty of 110ohm around but new installations are almost exclusively 75ohm. 110ohm balanced is NOT overall superior to 75ohm AES. The only advantage 110ohm balanced has is better noise immunity which doesn't matter in most installations, even large systems with runs of several hundreds of feet and in some broadcast facilities over 1000 sources and destinations.

AES and SPDIF are highly compatible when carrying PCM audio. The only data difference is in the channel status bit field. SPDIF has an optional copy protection bit in this field that was intended for consumer DAT recorders. To my knowledge this was never implemented and consumer DAT recorders had a short market life. There are also some voltage differences with SPDIF being lower than AES3-ID but as we are dealing with a saturation type signal, this is usually not a problem and if it is, simple attenuators or basic (non clamping) analog video amplifiers will fix it.

Once and a while a SPDIF device will not interact with a professional AES device but it's rare. Over the past 10 to 15 years I have on many occasions run AES directly into consumer AV receivers SPDIF jacks either via direct 75ohm AES or through a 110ohm to 75ohm transformer and it works fine. PCM is PCM as far as AES/SPDIF go. Where it hiccups is either from the channel status bit differences or some receivers don't like 48K PCM expecting CD 44.1. But again for the most part SPDIF and AES are directly compatible for PCM audio.

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The AES3 Standards reach beyond the interconnect cable qualities , they define how Thea data is managed. These standards are superior to SPDIF especially at 24/96 and above.

So if you have access to it, you should use it.

AES is pretty old these days. With 16 channels of 24 bit, 48KHz audio embedded in an HD-SDI signal....which travels over coax....the're not a lot of new AES installs.
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What are you talking about?

1) Skew in cabling is a multi conductor problem. CAT cables have skew issues, HDMI cables have skew issues. A single coax cable cannot by it's self have skew.

2) LCR as well as shielding parameters apply to any cable. What's your point here?

3) Part of the RG specifications determine physical size. There is no such thing as a "miniature" RG6 because then it is no longer RG6. Now I would not be surprised if some audiophile cable vendor says "miniature RG6" but then consider the source.
Belden
Mohawk
West penn
Delco

Just to name a few off the top of my head offer a mini-RG 6 solution.

As for the rest you need to re read my comments, you seem to be misunderstanding my points.

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post #21 of 90 Old 08-28-2014, 01:12 PM
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mini-RG 6 solution.
There is no mini RG6.

You seem to be misunderstanding the designations for coax cable as well as a multitude of other basic concepts.
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There is no mini RG6.

You seem to be misunderstanding the designations for coax cable as well as a multitude of other basic concepts.

Wouldn't that be something if you were correct!

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Belden
Mohawk
West penn
Delco

Just to name a few off the top of my head offer a mini-RG 6 solution.
Show me the PDF's or at least the part numbers.

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As for the rest you need to re read my comments, you seem to be misunderstanding my points.
We understand, based on your posts, that you don't have much of a clue and clearly have no experience in professional audio engineering.
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Show me the PDF's or at least the part numbers.
Well - A better idea would be for you to simply Google mini RG6 and all of the brands would start to populate your screen...

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We understand, based on your posts, that you don't have much of a clue and clearly have no experience in professional audio engineering.
If you say so!

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post #27 of 90 Old 08-29-2014, 10:05 AM
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Well - A better idea would be for you to simply Google mini RG6 and all of the brands would start to populate your screen...
Well I tried that and all I got was countless Chinese vendors that sell "mini RG6". Not one reputable American, European, or Japanese manufacture offered any product such as this.

Go figure.

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post #28 of 90 Old 08-29-2014, 05:17 PM
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Well I tried that and all I got was countless Chinese vendors that sell "mini RG6". Not one reputable American, European, or Japanese manufacture offered any product such as this.

Go figure.
Go figure indeed!

Belden showed up on the 3rd page for me?

http://www.belden.com/docs/upload/np198.pdf

Also, all of the brands that I listed also have it in there catalogs...

Here's, just one of many spec-sheets, note the Home Theater application note and the AES - digital audio applications, and lastly, note the higher than 18 gauge primary, and the vastly superior bandwidth and impedance stability...

RG6 is a general term, which defines a minimum class of analog and digital performances. Coax and multi-strand variants alike, can all meet the performance requirements, however, the most cost effective approach is to use the el-cheap RG6U-standard Coaxial Cable with an 18 AWG primary, 65% braided shielding and 95% foil shielding.

If one needs or desires a smaller cable packaging, more termination options, greater flexibility, or higher performance, etc., all are available, but a higher cost.

There are literally dozens and dozens of variants available. Planet Waves has some interesting ones for home based AV enthusiast.

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Near as i can tell the only relevant remaining spec for rg6 is 18 gauge conductor. Given that the belden pdf did not on quick review mention rg6 and states the conductor is 24 gauge if somebody calls it mini rg6 it is very loose marketingspeak. All 75 ohm cable is not rg6. Similarities between some non rg6 cable and and something meeting the rg6 spec does not make it rg6. Aiui, over 90percent of my dna is identical to that of a rat. I am not a rat and rats are not human despite significsnt similarities in our dna. See?
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post #30 of 90 Old 08-29-2014, 07:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garidy View Post
Go figure indeed!

Belden showed up on the 3rd page for me?

http://www.belden.com/docs/upload/np198.pdf
Could be a case of "everyone is right". In the PDF above, there is no reference to the RG-6 specification.

However, the RG-6 specs are fairly generic, and no proof of anything except the size of the inner conductor. Simply stating a cable as "Mini RG-6 Type" gets everyone off the hook, and also retains a wonderful state of ambiguity.

It seems Belden doesn't mention "mini RG-6" specifically. But there are lots of 75 Ohm cables that are smaller than a real RG-6, thus making them "mini', and retaining a resemblance to at least one property of RG-6.

So yes, there is no such thing as "mini RG-6", and yes, many brands have a product they call "mini RG-6" for some reason or other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garidy View Post
Also, all of the brands that I listed also have it in there catalogs...
I couldn't verify this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garidy View Post
Here's, just one of many spec-sheets, note the Home Theater application note and the AES - digital audio applications, and lastly, note the higher than 18 gauge primary, and the vastly superior bandwidth and impedance stability...
Well sure, but there is a range from excellent to horrible within available, so-called "RG-6". Just the designation guarantees very little, probably that its sort of close to 75 ohms.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garidy View Post
RG6 is a general term, which defines a minimum class of analog and digital performances. Coax and multi-strand variants alike, can all meet the performance requirements, however, the most cost effective approach is to use the el-cheap RG6U-standard Coaxial Cable with an 18 AWG primary, 65% braided shielding and 95% foil shielding.

If one needs or desires a smaller cable packaging, more termination options, greater flexibility, or higher performance, etc., all are available, but a higher cost.

There are literally dozens and dozens of variants available. Planet Waves has some interesting ones for home based AV enthusiast.
With RG-6 being defined by at least a dozen separate specifications, you'd think "mini" would be in there somewhere. But no. So, RG-6 is now a marketing term. Consider, how are you going to market a mini 75 ohm cable to someone who barely knows which end of the crimp tool to hold? They already know RG-6...
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