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post #61 of 179 Old 09-02-2014, 03:51 PM
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Yes, it is 100% possible to go back and re-do an older movie in Atmos. Just as what has been done many, many times with older non surround movies. No special microphones are used to make an Atmos mix. This is all done in the mixing studio just like every single movie in existence. The only difference is now there is new hardware and professional mixers who know how to use full channel beds or individual 'objects' within the mix.

In fact, I know Die Hard (the first one) and the movie Chicago have already been remixed to Dolby Atmos.

So sure enough (and I can't wait) there will be Star Wars in Dolby Atmos. In the meantime you can purchase a Dolby Atmos AVR/processor that also has the new iteration of Dolby Surround to upmix your current BD's into >7.1 sound with overheads.

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post #62 of 179 Old 09-02-2014, 03:55 PM
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What Are Your Questions About Dolby Atmos?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
Yeah. Probably better that things never advance then.

You don't really need that iPhone anyway. That old flip phone that only made calls was all you or anyone else ever needed.

You're missing the point. The number of dedicated 5.1/7.1 setups in the home is a rather small percentage. The reality is that most consumers want a single soundbar and not more unique speakers to place. There's no reason to require 4 or more upwards firing channels to use Atmos. The real issue is it could work with 5.1/7.1 systems but it wouldn't be backwards compatible.

Really this first home version should be called Dolby Atmos Metadata Extension. It's just TrueHD/Plus with metadata for the few objects in the mix.


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post #63 of 179 Old 09-02-2014, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
BTW - I see you're attending CEDIA this year. I'll be attending for my first time. I'll be there on the 11th. We should meet up.
Sorry, just saw this now. Yes, we should definitely meet up. Sending you a PM.
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post #64 of 179 Old 09-02-2014, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
Actually your first question is DEFINITELY an issue that the authoring house will have to deal with. Let alone Dolby, themselves.

As for the second question. Dolby Atmos works currently as an "extension" to TrueHD. There is no capability for it to work solely as PCM or (as far as we know) DTS-MA. There are no other lossless multi-channel codecs being used for consumer home video. For any future 4K BD format they will continue to use TrueHD.
Ty, so it just is a standard by default then.

Let me clarify about that first question... if Dolby manufactured the tech for Dolby vision & Atmos, wouldn't they be aware of any deals being made to utilize their product? As an example, I remember Scott asking Walther Roelen about if & which manufacturers would be building Ultra D 3d... and we did get some answers... can't hurt to ask. I think it's a fair question so that those of us who want to buy the Atmos version won't have to turn around and buy it again next year if they remaster everything for dolbyvision... if so I'd like to wait on the Atmos releases because I'll for sure be getting an dolbyvision tv set in 2015. I'd like to prevent myself from owning 3 copies of into darkness or the hobbit trilogy... haha.
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post #65 of 179 Old 09-02-2014, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
Yes, it is 100% possible to go back and re-do an older movie in Atmos. Just as what has been done many, many times with older non surround movies. No special microphones are used to make an Atmos mix. This is all done in the mixing studio just like every single movie in existence. The only difference is now there is new hardware and professional mixers who know how to use full channel beds or individual 'objects' within the mix.

In fact, I know Die Hard (the first one) and the movie Chicago have already been remixed to Dolby Atmos.

So sure enough (and I can't wait) there will be Star Wars in Dolby Atmos. In the meantime you can purchase a Dolby Atmos AVR/processor that also has the new iteration of Dolby Surround to upmix your current BD's into >7.1 sound with overheads.

Oh that's awesome, good to know. I was actually curious about that topic in general... because I just watched the bluray of Terry Gilliam's "the adventures of baron munchausen" and was surprised to hear a stereo mix... it definitely didn't sound like a surround mix. I know they can't redo all the old films, but it certainly is jarring when you hear a non-surround film haha.

How did you find out about Die Hard & Chicago? Was there a list somewhere?
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post #66 of 179 Old 09-02-2014, 04:25 PM
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Hey Scott, please ask Uncle Leo to let you do a 2 hour show.
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post #67 of 179 Old 09-02-2014, 04:39 PM
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slanted ceilings and Dolby Atmos

Is it still possible to get some of the immersive sound with Atmos if one has 15ft slanted ceilings that are conjoined by a small flattened ceiling in the middle?I would use front enabled dolby modules on my front speakers that would have to reflect off the anterior slanted ceiling.I can turn my rear surrounds which are on the rear slanted ceiling as my 2nd pair of dolby Atmos speakers.Is it possible that Audessy could correct this non idea ceiling configuration and allow me to experience some of the dolby Atmos sound benefit.I need some advice before I consider purchasing a Atmos ready new AVR or scrap the Atmos sound and just keep my Denon ave 4311ci. I have a 7.1 system.THX
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post #68 of 179 Old 09-02-2014, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toknowshita View Post
You're missing the point. The number of dedicated 5.1/7.1 setups in the home is a rather small percentage. The reality is that most consumers want a single soundbar and not more unique speakers to place. There's no reason to require 4 or more upwards firing channels to use Atmos. The real issue is it could work with 5.1/7.1 systems but it wouldn't be backwards compatible.

Really this first home version should be called Dolby Atmos Metadata Extension. It's just TrueHD/Plus with metadata for the few objects in the mix.


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Sorry you aren't happy with the initial rollout of capability. I get that, for sure.

As for being a niche market. Meh, who cares? It's still coming and we enthusiasts get to enjoy it pretty damn soon if not right this moment with the Denon.

Atmos in it's current form is 100% backward compatible.

You bring up a good point about the overhead requirement. I'm not sure if you can enable Atmos processing without at least one pair but that's kind of the point of Atmos. If you don't have or want overheads then just continue enjoying surround sound in it's current form using whatever. I do know that Atmos is compatible with 'wides' but if you don't have heights I wonder if it will work at all. At least this is the current situation. This might not be a limitation down the road but you bring up an important issue.

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Sorry, just saw this now. Yes, we should definitely meet up. Sending you a PM.
Thanks! Just replied.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aras_Volodka View Post
Ty, so it just is a standard by default then.

Let me clarify about that first question... if Dolby manufactured the tech for Dolby vision & Atmos, wouldn't they be aware of any deals being made to utilize their product? As an example, I remember Scott asking Walther Roelen about if & which manufacturers would be building Ultra D 3d... and we did get some answers... can't hurt to ask. I think it's a fair question so that those of us who want to buy the Atmos version won't have to turn around and buy it again next year if they remaster everything for dolbyvision... if so I'd like to wait on the Atmos releases because I'll for sure be getting an dolbyvision tv set in 2015. I'd like to prevent myself from owning 3 copies of into darkness or the hobbit trilogy... haha.
You know I don't know a ton about Dolby Vision/HDR video. I can tell you that you will be buying movies all over again forever no matter what. There is always a "good" reason to re-issue this or that. You'll buy that Into Darkness again and again. That next version might be in Atmos and 4K but 2.35 and not IMAX. Then they will do it again in IMAX. F**k!

Also it's worth mentioning that nothing is really authored for HDR video whatsoever. That's a big deal. Will the studios go back and try to process the image for you and then re-release it in "HDR"? Maybe. I'm not sure I'd want this. It will be the newest of titles in native HDR that will be worth watching with an HDR capable display. These don't really exist yet but they are coming and soon, I've heard. The tv's, I mean.

In any case you might be able to process any title into fake HDR like tv's do fake 3D if you want, now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aras_Volodka View Post
Oh that's awesome, good to know. I was actually curious about that topic in general... because I just watched the bluray of Terry Gilliam's "the adventures of baron munchausen" and was surprised to hear a stereo mix... it definitely didn't sound like a surround mix. I know they can't redo all the old films, but it certainly is jarring when you hear a non-surround film haha.

How did you find out about Die Hard & Chicago? Was there a list somewhere?
I forgot where I saw it but it's been mentioned publicly a couple times.

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post #69 of 179 Old 09-02-2014, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
You bring up a good point about the overhead requirement. I'm not sure if you can enable Atmos processing without at least one pair but that's kind of the point of Atmos. If you don't have or want overheads then just continue enjoying surround sound in it's current form using whatever. I do know that Atmos is compatible with 'wides' but if you don't have heights I wonder if it will work at all. At least this is the current situation. This might not be a limitation down the road but you bring up an important issue.
Quick question about that... I was initially thinking about getting the Denon X4100W... but I want the 4 channel overhead (5.1.4?) are all the cheapest receivers that do 4 height speakers 2k?

The Denon X4100W is pushing it for me budget wise... I might either bite the bullet and spend 2k on a receiver or wait until the prices drop so that I can get a 4 height system for somewhere around the 1,000-1,400 dollar range... if that might happen within a year of Atmos for the home release.
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post #70 of 179 Old 09-02-2014, 05:18 PM
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Perhaps can the Pioneer SC-85 handle 4 heights? I've been googling them to death but all the rear pics I see are pre-height channel apparently.
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post #71 of 179 Old 09-02-2014, 05:53 PM
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post #72 of 179 Old 09-02-2014, 06:45 PM
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I have a question:

I currently use "wide" and "height" speakers in my 11.4 setup. Will Dolby Atmos allow me to continue to use these speakers correctly within Dolby Atmos, especially the "wides", in addition to the additional speakers on the ceiling, something like 11.4.6?

Thanks!!!!!
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post #73 of 179 Old 09-02-2014, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psychdoc View Post
I have a question:

I currently use "wide" and "height" speakers in my 11.4 setup. Will Dolby Atmos allow me to continue to use these speakers correctly within Dolby Atmos, especially the "wides", in addition to the additional speakers on the ceiling, something like 11.4.6?

Thanks!!!!!
Not sure about the height speakers but your wides will be used to some extent. From what we gathered at the Burbank Atmos demo is that the wides will be in use but not with channel information. Only objects will pass through the wides.

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post #74 of 179 Old 09-02-2014, 08:17 PM
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post #75 of 179 Old 09-02-2014, 08:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aras_Volodka View Post
Quick question about that... I was initially thinking about getting the Denon X4100W... but I want the 4 channel overhead (5.1.4?) are all the cheapest receivers that do 4 height speakers 2k?

The Denon X4100W is pushing it for me budget wise... I might either bite the bullet and spend 2k on a receiver or wait until the prices drop so that I can get a 4 height system for somewhere around the 1,000-1,400 dollar range... if that might happen within a year of Atmos for the home release.
The X4100 is starting out at $1400. The X5200 is Denon's $2000 model.

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post #76 of 179 Old 09-02-2014, 08:41 PM
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Scott, I do have another question for Dolby besides the criteria for ceiling speakers either on or in-ceiling. I (like many others here) would really like to know what Dolby has planned to ensure that Atmos at home doesn't become another failed format. As you can see, there are many people here that are willing to shell out the hard earned cash for a more immersive home entertainment experience but at the same time we dont want to buy into something that is only going to get 20 or so titles that support it and then it fades away as another bad investment. Many other technologies had a lot of potential (DVD-Audio, SACD, 3D, etc) but one thing all these techs had in common was piss poor support from the content providers. With DVD-A & SACD it is a little easier to understand the failure. The first being a format war that no one wanted and the second was the cost of going back to make the 5.1 mixes (that weren't gimmicky). 3D is a little more strange to grasp. The studios all seem to support 3D at the theaters but the lack of titles available at home is baffling. Not to mention the added cost of a 3D Bluray (hey movie studios, we the consumer didn't really ask for 3D to begin with and we sure as hell dont want to pay a $10-$15 premium for it. And you wonder why it is failing). Ok off my soap box. So in short, I would like to know how Dolby is going to keep home Atmos from going the way of the Dodo. There is no format war at this moment and they have well over 150 movies in Atmos already with many more coming, this is a real potential hit if they do it right. Thanks for listening.

Eric
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post #77 of 179 Old 09-02-2014, 09:13 PM
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I'm looking for clarity on the technical requirements of on/in-ceiling speakers, especially as they contrast with and compare to atmos-enabled units. I read the 90 degree dispersion specification in the white paper released a week or two ago, but what about SPL expectations and low frequency extension? How is bass management handled for on-ceiling units compared to atmos-enabled units?

(Maybe this is available elsewhere - link anyone?)

Also: I've read that height speakers are only supported in pairs. Is that true - why? Are the home processors only able to be configured for a few specified speaker locations?
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post #78 of 179 Old 09-02-2014, 11:42 PM
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Great opportunity!

Two sets of questions:
1) re Dolby Surround upmixer: what will it offer for 2-channel music ambience retrieval over and above DPL2 (which is how I usually listen to 2ch music at home)?

2) re "elevation" upfiring speakers
-Talk about floor-ceiling height requirements and the one I haven't yet heard much about, top-of-module to ceiling height. For example, assuming 10' ceilings and speaking only of the efficacy of the upfiring modules, which would be a preferable height for upfiring models: atop 36" tall mains, or atop 60" tall mains?
-While I don't expect Dolby to give up their minimum specs for directivity, perhaps they'd be more willing to spell out an ideal. For example, would an 8" concentric driver with a 90º pattern through the upper mids and treble offer more "ideal" performance as an upfiring module compared to a 5" concentric driver with a 120º pattern through the upper mids and treble?

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post #79 of 179 Old 09-03-2014, 01:05 AM
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Is the following assumption correct?

For existng CD's and SACD's, Dolby Atmos is ineffective (has no effect) on music mixes. In other words, Dolby Atmos needs specific discs. In other words it (Dolby Atmos) cannot synthsize an audio result like Dolby ProLogic IIz or DTS Neo:6 or DTS Neo:X.
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post #80 of 179 Old 09-03-2014, 07:10 AM
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I understand the progression of technology point with Atmos. My curiosity is the user can have more than one speaker setup currently for Atmos, why not have a mode/abiility without ceiling speakers?

It seems that Atmos is a more sophisticated way of positioning sound in the room and just thought it could be implemented in existing speaker setups. It wouldn't take full advantage, but thought there might be an improvement over current formats.
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post #81 of 179 Old 09-03-2014, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Thanks Scott for this great opportunity.


Here is my question:


If starting with a 7.1.4 set up, which extra speakers should I wire to accommodate possible extensions for the home version of Atmos? I can't add more in the back of my room due to a slanted ceiling, so beyond the 7.1 bed I'll only be able to have 2 top rear just behind the MLP and 2 top front about 3-4 feet forward. Should I wire for 2 front Heights? A centre height? Or are these unlikely to ever be supported by Atmos in the home?
Atmos does not currently support what you would typically call a "height" channel, i.e. a speaker that is located a few feet above the surround speakers such that the angle between a horizontal plane passing thru the MLP at seated ear level and the speaker position is significantly less than 45 degrees. Current Atmos receivers assume that all of your surround speakers are at ear level and that all of your overhead or "top" speakers are as close or closer to you in the x-y direction than they are in the z direction (i.e. the horizontal distance from you to the speaker is equal to or less than the vertical distance from the speaker to your ears.) If you already have front/rear height speakers and don't want to move them or add true "top" speakers (either as in ceiling, on ceiling, or upfiring speakers) then you could always lie to your AVR/pre-pro and assign your front/rear heights as "top" speakers anyways. The effect will not be as convincing as actual overhead or upfiring speakers, but it could still add a somewhat improved sense of three dimensional sound.

If a 7.1.4 setup is your starting point and you want to add more channels, but can't accommodate more "top" channels then you should be looking to add more ear level surround speakers to fill in the gaps, starting with front wides, followed by rear wides.
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post #82 of 179 Old 09-03-2014, 09:17 AM
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wont atmos sound better than truehd even if you never installed overhead ceiling speakers?

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post #83 of 179 Old 09-03-2014, 09:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lionanimal View Post
Is the following assumption correct?

For existng CD's and SACD's, Dolby Atmos is ineffective (has no effect) on music mixes. In other words, Dolby Atmos needs specific discs. In other words it (Dolby Atmos) cannot synthsize an audio result like Dolby ProLogic IIz or DTS Neo:6 or DTS Neo:X.
Yes it can "synthesize". There is a new upmixer that will debut along with native Atmos decoding that works just like Pro Logic 2. They have named it Dolby Surround.

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post #84 of 179 Old 09-03-2014, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JediFonger View Post
wont atmos sound better than truehd even if you never installed overhead ceiling speakers?
That doesn't makes sense. Like asking whether 5.1 sounds better than PCM.

Atmos is a mixing/rendering technology. TrueHD is lossless data packing. Atmos soundtracks are delivered using TrueHD.

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post #85 of 179 Old 09-03-2014, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JediFonger View Post
wont atmos sound better than truehd even if you never installed overhead ceiling speakers?
Define "sound better". The quality of the sound coming from each speaker should be the same. If you are using a 5.1 or 7.1 speaker setup then the surround effect would also be the same regardless of whether or not your receiver can utilize the object audio metadata. The differences would start to appear once you go beyond a 7.1 setup, either by adding overhead/upfiring speakers or more ear level surrounds (e.g. wides). At one time, it was thought that the receivers would be able to measure your speakers' exact positions (rather than just distance) and adjust the mix accordingly, but these 1st gen AVR's and pre/pro's don't appear to have that capability. If that capability becomes a reality in future generations then Atmos soundtracks could produce a more effective surround effect than non-Atmos soundtracks, even if you only use a basic 5.1 or 7.1 setup.
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post #86 of 179 Old 09-03-2014, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyoAJB View Post
Atmos does not currently support what you would typically call a "height" channel, i.e. a speaker that is located a few feet above the surround speakers such that the angle between a horizontal plane passing thru the MLP at seated ear level and the speaker position is significantly less than 45 degrees. Current Atmos receivers assume that all of your surround speakers are at ear level and that all of your overhead or "top" speakers are as close or closer to you in the x-y direction than they are in the z direction (i.e. the horizontal distance from you to the speaker is equal to or less than the vertical distance from the speaker to your ears.) If you already have front/rear height speakers and don't want to move them or add true "top" speakers (either as in ceiling, on ceiling, or upfiring speakers) then you could always lie to your AVR/pre-pro and assign your front/rear heights as "top" speakers anyways. The effect will not be as convincing as actual overhead or upfiring speakers, but it could still add a somewhat improved sense of three dimensional sound.

If a 7.1.4 setup is your starting point and you want to add more channels, but can't accommodate more "top" channels then you should be looking to add more ear level surround speakers to fill in the gaps, starting with front wides, followed by rear wides.

Thanks, unfortunately my room is width limited too, so wides are not really an option, unless by wides you mean angular wides (in between front and surround or in between back and surround) even if they are on the same line as the front-surround. Given the fact that my room length is about 15ft, it's probably overkill as there is no real gap between the speakers.


Looks 7.1.4 should do for Atmos otherwise .


I still wonder if I should wire height front/centre for other formats (DTS-UHD? Auro3D?) whenever they appear, as they might support these.


I'm going to redo my room within the next few months and am unlikely to be able to rewire for a while...
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post #87 of 179 Old 09-03-2014, 10:54 AM
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Thanks, unfortunately my room is width limited too, so wides are not really an option, unless by wides you mean angular wides (in between front and surround or in between back and surround) even if they are on the same line as the front-surround. Given the fact that my room length is about 15ft, it's probably overkill as there is no real gap between the speakers.


Looks 7.1.4 should do for Atmos otherwise .


I still wonder if I should wire height front/centre for other formats (DTS-UHD? Auro3D?) whenever they appear, as they might support these.


I'm going to redo my room within the next few months and am unlikely to be able to rewire for a while...
As you mentioned, front/rear wides don't need to be further apart than the front mains to work. Placing them along the side wall, between the fronts and the side surrounds works just as well.

If you can't use more ear level surrounds or overhead channels but want to make the most of other surround formats then the addition of front heights could be beneficial. Dolby PLIIz, DTS Neo:X, and Audyssey DSX are already able to make use of front height speakers, though they are used to upmix from 7.1 and below as no discrete 9.1 or above mixes currently exist.
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post #88 of 179 Old 09-03-2014, 12:03 PM
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wont atmos sound better than truehd even if you never installed overhead ceiling speakers?
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Define "sound better". The quality of the sound coming from each speaker should be the same. If you are using a 5.1 or 7.1 speaker setup then the surround effect would also be the same regardless of whether or not your receiver can utilize the object audio metadata. The differences would start to appear once you go beyond a 7.1 setup, either by adding overhead/upfiring speakers or more ear level surrounds (e.g. wides). At one time, it was thought that the receivers would be able to measure your speakers' exact positions (rather than just distance) and adjust the mix accordingly, but these 1st gen AVR's and pre/pro's don't appear to have that capability. If that capability becomes a reality in future generations then Atmos soundtracks could produce a more effective surround effect than non-Atmos soundtracks, even if you only use a basic 5.1 or 7.1 setup.
I think what he's asking is what I and others have been wondering about, does Atmos not necessarily "sound better", but is it more immersive in a 5.1 or 7.1 setup vs other surround modes such as DSX or Neo-X.

Can anyone comment on that? Thanks.

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post #89 of 179 Old 09-03-2014, 12:18 PM
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Atmos is the new Dolby soundtrack technology which contains audio objects with xyz coordinates. It uses those coordinates to decide which speakers to use. While that technology logically could be used when all of the speakers are at the same level (as for traditional 5.1 or 7.1 speaker arrangements), that's not how it's being implemented. This year's Atmos-capable equipment requires overhead speakers to be configured befor Atmos decoding can be enabled. However, if you happened to have placed your rear surround speakers high up, you could configure them in the receiver as if they were Rear Height speakers. That would enable Atmos decoding and the sounds placeed in them probably wouldn't sound too far wrong.

The new Dolby Surround upmixing technology is separate from Atmos but is shipped with it. It's an extension of ProLogic. If you enable it and listen to non-Atmos soundtracks, it'll expand stereo and 5.1 audio into however many speakers you have (except for Front Wides). People who've reported hearing it seem to agree that it does a better job than ProLogic or DTS Neo:X. Of course, YMMV.

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post #90 of 179 Old 09-03-2014, 01:18 PM
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