Ask Me Anything: Defining High-Res Audio - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 59Likes
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
post #61 of 123 Old 09-02-2016, 08:39 AM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 14
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 2
Smile Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
Well, we've come to the end of this AMA; thanks to everyone who submitted a question!

Now, it's time to reveal the winners of our two prize packages, each of which includes a Sony NWZ-A17/SLV portable high-res audio player and MDR-1A/B high-res-capable headphones.

And the winners are (drum roll please…):

tomtb16 and Frank Derks

Congratulations! We will contact you about shipping details.

And thanks again for participating in this AMA!
Thanks for the contest. I am looking forward to checking out the player and headphones!

Big fan of the forums and your weekly podcasts.
tomtb16 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #62 of 123 Old 09-02-2016, 08:48 AM
 
jaddie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,571
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1295 Post(s)
Liked: 749
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacklightning View Post
I think when he says "better than CD quality", he is referring to the bit quality for digital files ONLY. Also the above chart means nothing if they do not state the data or tests involved in making the chart. Plus they have no labels for the Y axis.

CHART IS USELESS. Think about it you can download a CD file so downloads can be as good as CD's on this list, plus the files used to make the CD "before it is downscaled for CD use" can also be "downloaded". On the Convenience side I know a lot more people that have SACD players and discs, I know if one person with Reel to Reel. Download is a lot more convenient than CD's.

CHART IS USELESS
Wow, it's kinda hard to tell...but I think you may be intimating that the CHART IS USELESS?

I'll take a wild guess that m. zillch posted it just for that reason.
jaddie is offline  
post #63 of 123 Old 09-02-2016, 09:40 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Blacklightning's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Edmonton,AB Canada
Posts: 1,044
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 487 Post(s)
Liked: 325
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaddie View Post
Wow, it's kinda hard to tell...but I think you may be intimating that the CHART IS USELESS?

I'll take a wild guess that m. zillch posted it just for that reason.
guess I did not read the post fully.
Blacklightning is offline  
 
post #64 of 123 Old 09-02-2016, 09:44 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,370
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2003 Post(s)
Liked: 1285
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacklightning View Post
I think when he says "better than CD quality", he is referring to the bit quality for digital files ONLY.
Fair enough, so let's look at a Meridian chart with Bob Stuart explaining just those then:



Quote:
Also the above chart means nothing if they do not state the data or tests involved in making the chart. Plus they have no labels for the Y axis.
But what units for the Y-axis, I wonder, could one possibly use for "three dimensionality", "it was like a veil was lifted", "similarity to butterscotch" [only the old vets here will get that joke], or "micro-details"?


Quote:
CHART IS USELESS
I would tend to agree, and that was what I was getting at, but more importantly it should be pointed out that the Hi-Res proponents don't have any other y-axis labeled charts to show us. What does tell us about their product?

Last edited by m. zillch; 09-02-2016 at 11:39 AM.
m. zillch is offline  
post #65 of 123 Old 09-02-2016, 03:39 PM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 4
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 1
I swear the original post said to ask questions in it, not to look for another thread. Thats stinks a bit, probably wasn't entered into the contest.
enlisted23 likes this.
Timwillhack is offline  
post #66 of 123 Old 09-02-2016, 03:56 PM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 4
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timwillhack View Post
I swear the original post said to ask questions in it, not to look for another thread. Thats stinks a bit, probably wasn't entered into the contest.
Sorry it won't let me edit... It did say the questions asked in that thread would be answered in the Q&A at the end:
Quote:
To help the event get off to a good start, we invite you to submit a question about the definition of high-res audio in this thread, which will be transferred over to the new thread on September 1 and answered first—and of course, you will be entered to win one of the prize packages.
Doesn't look like my question was transferred or answered, what a bummer. I was really curious and obviously was excited about high odds of winning some nice Sony hardware since I figured there would be maybe 100 questions asked, 1 in 50 chance of winning is pretty great. I wasn't available at the time of the event and got a chance to look today and am disappointed to say the least.
Timwillhack is offline  
post #67 of 123 Old 09-02-2016, 03:56 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,370
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2003 Post(s)
Liked: 1285
I think both winning contestants asked questions in that original thread, yet didn't in this one, so if you asked a question there I think you were included. [at least that's how I see it]

Last edited by m. zillch; 09-02-2016 at 04:11 PM.
m. zillch is offline  
post #68 of 123 Old 09-02-2016, 04:04 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,370
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2003 Post(s)
Liked: 1285
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timwillhack
Would it be beneficial for high res headphones to have more than one piece of hardware outputting sound? Such as having a sub speaker and tweeters?.
With home hi-fi speakers, which have to move a lot of air, having a 2-way design, or more, is almost a given, but with headphones a single driver can usually do quite well driving the entire range of human hearing. [I'm going by the traditional ballpark figure of 20-20kHz definition here, which is firmly established, despite what you may hear from others]. This is not to say that I haven't heard multiple way headphones that work quite well too, but obviously they are more complex and costly since you have multiple drivers.

" I have preordered a pair of Nura headphones, they have in ears and around ears built into one headphone and they apparently calibrate the frequency spectrum (EQ) of the headphones to each of your ears."

We have another thread that discusses those you might search for.
m. zillch is offline  
post #69 of 123 Old 09-02-2016, 04:08 PM
AVS Forum Club Gold
 
BobOD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 141
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Liked: 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
We know from this Sony document https://content.abt.com/documents/61...ACS_manual.pdf [page 6, Note number 1] that Sony defines consumer microphones that record up to 40 kHz, albeit at a , *gulp*, hugely reduced output level of -30 dB down, as being "Hi-Res Audio", however to the best of our research studio mics have no such requirements to meet in order to be defined as "Hi-Res". Since the microphones used bear a tremendous influence on the sound we hear in a Hi-Res recording, is there any initiative to set a similar requirement as to what studio mics should be defined as to be deemed "Hi-Res capable"?
Pro audio equipment rarely has the same kind of consumer-focused labelling that stereo/hifi equipment does, so no, I don't believe there is any effort like that. Also, while microphones are important for recordings of acoustic instruments, they obviously have no influence on instruments that are recorded directly (electric guitars, basses, keyboards, software-based instruments, etc.). Plus, there are quite a few pro mics that can handle these types of specs. Bear in mind, however, that virtually no microphones have a flat frequency response--as a result they all have different sonic characters. This is why musicians and engineers use so many different mics and often feel as strongly about their choices as audiophiles do about theirs.
pibroch likes this.
BobOD is offline  
post #70 of 123 Old 09-02-2016, 04:14 PM
AVS Forum Club Gold
 
BobOD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 141
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Liked: 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by oog500 View Post
Would LP recorded with HRA capable recorder be considered HRA?
This is an interesting question and kind of a tough call. There are certainly some people who would argue that high-quality vinyl with a very good turntable could be considered better than CD quality, but they are probably the minority. In theory, if you could get that and then digitize it at higher rates (e.g., 96 kHz, 24-bit), then it would qualify.
BobOD is offline  
post #71 of 123 Old 09-02-2016, 04:15 PM
AVS Forum Club Gold
 
BobOD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 141
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Liked: 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacklightning View Post
Bob any chance you will be on Home Theater Geeks soon???
No plans, sorry.
BobOD is offline  
post #72 of 123 Old 09-02-2016, 04:18 PM
AVS Forum Club Gold
 
BobOD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 141
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Liked: 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by JaytheDreamer View Post
Really good thread and good info. Thanks Bob. Any chance this thread or a similar one can be there in AVS as an on-going thread for Hi-Res audio?
Thanks. You'll have to ask the AVS folks about that, but I know there are many other threads here that discuss the topic.
JaytheDreamer likes this.
BobOD is offline  
post #73 of 123 Old 09-02-2016, 04:29 PM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 4
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
With home hi-fi speakers, which have to move a lot of air, having a 2-way design, or more, is almost a given, but with headphones a single driver can usually do quite well driving the entire range of human hearing. [I'm going by the traditional ballpark figure of 20-20kHz definition, which is firmly established despite what you may hear from others]
I wasn't sure given how headphones have their frequency responses graphed. I was thinking electrostatic or planar magnetic headphones could be more analytical / neutral frequency response compared to dynamic single speaker cans. On another side note I have tried a lot of headphones and I found that a lot of the cheaper units have poor separation vs some of the more premium offerings have much more defined separation and are less muddy sounding although I have not tried electrostatic or planar magnetic yet. I would assume separation could be improved with better hardware or more of it (breaking it apart into specialized pieces like tweeters and woofers). I'm sure how recordings are recorded and compression affects this, but I'm referring to HiRes audio at this point that is recorded in some acceptable HiRes way (if that is even a thing). I've noticed for instance that a recording with less going on such as only drums and one instrument layer are way more crisp sounding than a messy smorgasbord of a whole band going to town at the same time.

Thanks for finding my question to answer though, I do appreciate you spending the time finding it.
Timwillhack is offline  
post #74 of 123 Old 09-02-2016, 06:50 PM
Administrator
Administrator
 
Mike Lang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 14,759
Mentioned: 83 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1087 Post(s)
Liked: 826
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timwillhack View Post
I swear the original post said to ask questions in it, not to look for another thread. Thats stinks a bit, probably wasn't entered into the contest.
A question from either thread counted as a contest entry.

Mike Lang, Administrator
Please use the report post button to alert staff to problematic posts. Never quote or respond to them yourself.
Join the AVS Forum Club and help support the site. Help Support AVS Forum Sponsors.
AVS Forum is not sponsored by or in any way affiliated with AV Science Inc.
Mike Lang is offline  
post #75 of 123 Old 09-03-2016, 10:13 AM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 1
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Where would I buy music in High-Res format?

Sent from my VS990 using Tapatalk
jan.bostrom.56 is offline  
post #76 of 123 Old 09-03-2016, 11:21 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,370
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2003 Post(s)
Liked: 1285
Quote:
Originally Posted by jan.bostrom.56 View Post
Where would I buy music in High-Res format?
There are many places but if you wish to get real-deal Hi-Res which is recorded with actual microphones that can record content well above the 20/22kHz limit of the CD format (and at reasonable levels, not 30 dB down or more) you might try AIX Records and 2L. A link to test samples and an excellent way to compare and analyze them by ear can be found here: Audio Training Tool/Listening Test for Audiophiles

Many big name sites, including Pono Music, are known to merely upsample old recordings, mostly made on what by today's standards would be deemed "primitive" analog recording devices or digital decks that are hardly any different than the CD format itself, and almost always using mics with severely limited >22kHz capability, then trying to pass it off to the public as being "Hi-Res". Interestingly it seems the vast majority of the buying public doesn't seem to complain however. . . . I'll let you come to your own conclusions as to why that might be.

Here is a sort of "master list" if you don't care about the recording's actual provenance and you buy into the notion that anything labeled as "Hi-Res" actually is: http://www.findhdmusic.com/high-definition/directory/
2channel8 likes this.

Last edited by m. zillch; 09-04-2016 at 08:29 AM.
m. zillch is offline  
post #77 of 123 Old 09-03-2016, 12:03 PM
 
jaddie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,571
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1295 Post(s)
Liked: 749
I'll second m. zillch on the sources for true Hi-Res. I own several AIX recordings, they are all excellent, some of the best recordings I own. In my tests they are also excellent in standard CD quality and not distinguishable from the Hi-Res versions. But they are really well recorded and produced, which I firmly believe is the problem to solve anyway, and thus worth their cost.

As to other sites, it seems silly to pay up for a "Hi-Res" version of a low-res recording. Up-sampling doesn't created more audio information, it just creates more data.
jaddie is offline  
post #78 of 123 Old 09-03-2016, 04:39 PM
Mark Henninger
 
imagic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 12,454
Mentioned: 277 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6600 Post(s)
Liked: 11363
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaddie View Post
I'll second m. zillch on the sources for true Hi-Res. I own several AIX recordings, they are all excellent, some of the best recordings I own. In my tests they are also excellent in standard CD quality and not distinguishable from the Hi-Res versions. But they are really well recorded and produced, which I firmly believe is the problem to solve anyway, and thus worth their cost.

As to other sites, it seems silly to pay up for a "Hi-Res" version of a low-res recording. Up-sampling doesn't created more audio information, it just creates more data.
Blu-ray audio FTW!

Mark Henninger, Senior Editor at AVS Forum
imagic is offline  
post #79 of 123 Old 09-03-2016, 05:19 PM
 
NorthSky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Star of the Northern Hemisphere
Posts: 16,653
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7012 Post(s)
Liked: 3557
Thanks Bob for all your answers so far; they were "illuminating"...with very good points you made.

I have a HRA player, and HRA amplifiers, HRA preamp, and digital ready loudspeakers, plus true real genuine HRA (labelled too) music recordings.

My job as an audiophile is to make sure that I only purchase the good stuff...hardware and software, and that I listen to the music I love...Opera, Classical and Tango ... +++
imagic likes this.
NorthSky is offline  
post #80 of 123 Old 09-03-2016, 05:43 PM
Mark Henninger
 
imagic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 12,454
Mentioned: 277 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6600 Post(s)
Liked: 11363
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
Thanks Bob for all your answers so far; they were "illuminating"...with very good points you made.

I have a HRA player, and HRA amplifiers, HRA preamp, and digital ready loudspeakers, plus true real genuine HRA (labelled too) music recordings.

My job as an audiophile is to make sure that I only purchase the good stuff...hardware and software, and that I listen to the music I love...Opera, Classical and Tango ... +++
I'm OK with HRA being shorthand for "engineered to deliver audio transparently, regardless of resolution." If HRA gear performs as it should, then "perfect" CD audio reproduction should be a piece of cake. It's similar to how you want a TV to exceed BT.709 gamut, not just achieve it. Then you know you are getting the most out of a Blu-ray. That headroom is, in a sense, a guarantor of verisimilitude.

Mark Henninger, Senior Editor at AVS Forum

Last edited by imagic; 09-03-2016 at 06:11 PM.
imagic is offline  
post #81 of 123 Old 09-03-2016, 06:05 PM
 
jaddie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,571
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1295 Post(s)
Liked: 749
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
I have a HRA player, and HRA amplifiers, HRA preamp, and digital ready loudspeakers, plus true real genuine HRA (labelled too) music recordings.
Holding...back...trying...not.........too......

Oh, heck with it. "Digital Ready Speakers"......

And it was even going sort of well....or at least, OK.
jaddie is offline  
post #82 of 123 Old 09-03-2016, 06:25 PM
 
NorthSky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Star of the Northern Hemisphere
Posts: 16,653
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7012 Post(s)
Liked: 3557
Yes, you do remember those? When CD came to the rescue (of the cassette) manufacturers started to label their speakers and headphones "Digital Ready". Lol
NorthSky is offline  
post #83 of 123 Old 09-03-2016, 06:43 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,370
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2003 Post(s)
Liked: 1285
Now that much of the wacky audio world has embraced "analog" as a complement shouldn't we start seeing "analog ready" gear? 10 points to the first person that finds such a reference!


I already know that some people actively seek out a SPARS code* of AAA for their vinyl so I assume "analog ready" speakers and such should be here soon.


*For anyone here not old enough to know what this means: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPARS_code
m. zillch is offline  
post #84 of 123 Old 09-03-2016, 06:44 PM
 
lovinthehd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: OROR
Posts: 16,242
Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4588 Post(s)
Liked: 4783
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
Yes, you do remember those? When CD came to the rescue (of the cassette) manufacturers started to label their speakers and headphones "Digital Ready". Lol
LOL indeed my Denon headphones say "DIGITAL" in large caps preceded by, in smaller/lower case letters, with "for"
lovinthehd is offline  
post #85 of 123 Old 09-03-2016, 09:50 PM
 
jaddie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,571
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1295 Post(s)
Liked: 749
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Now that much of the wacky audio world has embraced "analog" as a complement shouldn't we start seeing "analog ready" gear? 10 points to the first person that finds such a reference!


I already know that some people actively seek out a SPARS code* of AAA for their vinyl so I assume "analog ready" speakers and such should be here soon.


*For anyone here not old enough to know what this means: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPARS_code
Funny. I was always looking for DDD.

For what it's worth, I favored the SPARS code, be it ever so simple, over the alternative (nothing).
jaddie is offline  
post #86 of 123 Old 09-03-2016, 10:17 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Worf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 1,524
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 570 Post(s)
Liked: 308
Yeah, I remember when CDs came out and the holy grail was to get a cd with DDD on it. Now we're back to AAA? Sounds like some financial people got involved (AAA means a rock solid safe investment). At least now I know what those letters were called...

Oh, and remember cassette tapes marked as "Digital"? They were almost always the cheapest tapes you can find, too.
Worf is offline  
post #87 of 123 Old 09-03-2016, 11:06 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,370
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2003 Post(s)
Liked: 1285
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
I'm OK with HRA being shorthand for "engineered to deliver audio transparently, regardless of resolution..
Then that came about in the 1980s. For me personally in 1985:http://www.technics.com/global/chronicle/sl-xp7/ hearing Peter Gabriel's DDD album Security.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".
m. zillch is offline  
post #88 of 123 Old 09-04-2016, 08:28 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
CruelInventions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Chicago-ish
Posts: 5,593
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 641 Post(s)
Liked: 788
Quote:
Originally Posted by Worf View Post
Yeah, I remember when CDs came out and the holy grail was to get a cd with DDD on it. Now we're back to AAA?
AAA? Nothing of the sort. Not sure how you came away with this from the discussion.

Quote:
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool. ~ Richard P. Feynman
CruelInventions is offline  
post #89 of 123 Old 09-04-2016, 08:42 AM
 
jaddie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,571
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1295 Post(s)
Liked: 749
Quote:
Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post
AAA? Nothing of the sort. Not sure how you came away with this from the discussion.

AAA is a perfectly valid SPARS code, just never found on a CD.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPARS_code
jaddie is offline  
post #90 of 123 Old 09-04-2016, 09:10 AM
 
jaddie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,571
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1295 Post(s)
Liked: 749
So you think Hi-res is new, huh? Looks like they had it in the 1930s, they just didn't know how to punctuate it yet.

Frankly I like this logo much better.

jaddie is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Closed Thread Audio Theory, Setup, and Chat

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off