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Why vinyl records?

13K views 270 replies 76 participants last post by  buzzy_ 
#1 ·
I don't understand why people still use vinyl records, I dumped my turn table like over 20 years ago already. Any reason why people still using this other than nostalgic? I gave my collection away long time ago, my stepson still have some of mine. He just keeping them as he does not even have a turn table either.

I had a chance to hear some years back, it sounded flat, did not have the dynamics of the CD. It seemed a little smoother than CD. But all in all, I take CD and DVD any time of the day.

Another thing is the record wears out also. I remember I had to buy the third Jimmy Hendrix "Band of Gypsy" as I worn two out. I had a good Dual turn table at the time, so it's not as if the needle was so heavy that it destroyed the grooves. They only last so many times.
 
#3 ·
Wow, what a novel question!

There's a nifty feature that some websites have called the "Search" function. Often represented visually by a magnifying glass. This forum just so happens to have this function and it can really come in handy! :p

Seriously though, any of the below threads (and many more here) can give you all of the reasons as to why some have never stopped playing vinyl and why some people only recently have decided to get into vinyl.

Some do it for (often myth-driven) bad reasons, while some do it for good reasons. Or a mix of both.


http://www.avsforum.com/forum/173-2-channel-audio/1807505-does-vinyl-really-sound-better.html

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/173-2-channel-audio/1638169-vinyl-worth-getting-into.html

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-audio-theory-setup-chat/2299370-considering-going-vinyl.html

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/173-2-channel-audio/2331753-vinyl-what-am-i-missing.html
 
#6 · (Edited)
^ Expense, inconvenience, and because they are bombarded by a lie that analog, or at the very least Hi-res renditions of it, is where it's at, sonically:


2:20 "Analog, is what you're saying. . . How can you get an analog tape in this? How can you get a vinyl record in this? Well, what we do is transfer it to the highest possible resolution, digital, because analog has got all of the information in it so we use the highest resolution digital and then you get as close as digital can get to that analog."
 
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#7 ·
Or, people may listen to vinyl records because they already have large record collections (which they didn't give away 20 years ago) and don't want the expense of converting everything to CD's. Or, for a number of other reasons which may be somewhat unique to the individual. Myths notwithstanding, this is simply an entertainment hobby, with as many slightly different preferred ways to enjoy it as there are people to do so. :)
 
#17 · (Edited)
Or, people may listen to vinyl records because they already have large record collections . . . and don't want the expense of converting everything to CD's.
Yes, this is perfectly valid.

One of the things that some of us might not get is the ritual involved with records. I still have a large record collection, although I don't use it anymore, and I remember some of the pleasure in that aspect of the hobby. It is probably something like the pleasure some derive from a Japanese tea ceremony, where the preparation and presentation enhance the actual consumption of the tea.
Yes, this is also perfectly valid.
---
[Now addressing everyone.]

What I think many people fail to understand is that I have nothing against people liking vinyl, in fact it is perfectly valid to say, "I don't know what it is exactly, but I just prefer its sound. It seems more real and musical to me". [But it is important to understand that preference and accuracy are not the same thing.]

This is analogous to saying "I prefer chocolate ice cream to strawberry". Yes, that's valid too, but you cross a line when you say, "Vinyl renders a more faithful, i.e. higher fidelity reproduction of the studio master tape, than CD."

Nope.
Sorry, but accuracy is something we can measure and it isn't up for debate or personal taste. This is one of, if not the most important concepts in audio, a field I've worked in passionately for decades, and I try to explain this concept in my signature.

Just because we usually, as consumers, don't have direct access to the studio master recording doesn't suddenly mean everything goes out the window and suddenly it is a free for all where everyone gets to define what level of bass and treble, and everything else, tickles their fancy as being "accurate". Scientists who invent our music formats do have direct access to the studio masters and both by electrical measurements and listening tests we know that digital beats vinyl in regards to fidelity, even price no object phono rigs, hands down, not just in some categories [like the proper replication of the levels of bass and treble] but in every single known metric there is:

- flatness of frequency response from 2Hz to 20kHz CD wins by a big margin.
- speed accuracy CD wins by a big margin.
- wow CD wins by a big margin.
- weighted wow CD wins by a big margin.
- flutter CD wins by a big margin.
- weighted flutter CD wins by a big margin.
- rumble CD wins by a big margin.
- weighted rumble CD wins by a big margin.
- susceptibility to audible ticks, pops, or clicks due to a less than perfect surface or scratches CD wins by a big margin.
- distortion CD wins by a big margin.
- pre-groove echo CD wins by a big margin.
- hum CD wins by a big margin.
- channel separation CD wins by a big margin.
- hiss CD wins by a big margin.

[I'm probably forgetting some but those are what comes to mind at the moment.]

So in what audible categories is vinyl better than CD? None.

But why do some people say it sounds better to them? Well for one reason they (usually) don't have direct access to the master so they can only guess as to how it sounds. Give them access and suddenly many will realize: "Wow, you're right. Vinyl is different from the master, beyond just the added pops and ticks, whereas CD is a nearly perfect, indistinguishable copy."

We also know that records are often "fudged". Since they have trouble with loud, sustained, deep bass at say 20Hz or lower they try to give the illusion of deep bass by boosting it at a higher frequency of 200Hz, or so, instead, where they don't have so much difficulty. This adds warmth but it is not faithful to the master and of course we could also add that same 200 Hz boost to CDs if we wanted to.

JJ Johnston, co-inventor of MP3 and other important technologies, believes that the added low level distortion of vinyl is perceived as added loudness and we all know the old audio store trick of bumping the sound up by half a dB to fool the customer that the sound is "better". [This is largely why we have the dreaded loudness war, by the way. You can't easily talk people out of perceiving this illusion that louder is better. It's just not happening.]

Consumers also have been indoctrinated by the same people who have indoctrinated Neil Young. "Watch out for those digital stair steps! Only analog holds all the sound. It's all in there! Digital throws away 85% of the music, ya know. . . blah, blah, blah"

Some people are also of the mind that CDs are more convenient than vinyl and that, I suppose, is a matter of opinion. But I'm only here to discuss the science of the format as a sound reproduction medium: I'm an expert in the field should anyone have any technical questions. Please ask.
 
#8 ·
I guess I grew up with vinyls, but don't miss it. Besides, I don't think you have the selection like the digital music today. You mainly get the old music from way back in the days. I gone through those ones, I don't like to repeat them anymore. I was a serious musician in the late 60s and 70s, but I absolutely do not listen to any of those stuffs anymore.

I am only interested in the sound quality, sounds like people hang on to vinyl for nostalgic reason only.
 
#87 ·
It is because analog sounds bettrer, this comes from my fifty years of playing/listining to music from both formats but mostly analog. When one does critical listening comparing cd to vinyl the difference IS NOT SUBTLE, vinyl is way more musical, i.e. sounds like real music like you are present at the live event....cd by comparison sound compressed harsh sterile edgy on the very top end. I will say this digital has gotten much better in tjhe past five years or so. Analog actually holds more information then digital, proof, in digital format the frequency response is 20hz to 20khz 44.1 sampling rate , in analog the response is from 20hz to 40khz or more of pure uninterrupted uncompressed signal where digital is thousands of one's and zero's . This is record industry fact, however SACD does sound better then standard cd. with SACD the sampling rate is raised to 48 khz which widens and deepens the sound stage because the signal IS NOT COMPRESSED as is with 44.1 standard cd and that is why SACD's sound pretty good. For me analog is KING, but this new hi-res audio stuff sounds really good in the demos I've heard at high end audio stores.
 
#10 ·
Why obsess and/or bicker why or why not one chooses to embrace vinyl (new or old users)?

Just enjoy the music and your hobby, no matter the format.
Excellent idea: there is room for all here on AVS

Happy Thanksgiving to all :)
 
#11 ·
Is there a maximum number of these threads that the Internet can hold before it just implodes on itself ? [emoji6]


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#15 ·
One of the things that some of us might not get is the ritual involved with records. I still have a large record collection, although I don't use it anymore, and I remember some of the pleasure in that aspect of the hobby. It is probably something like the pleasure some derive from a Japanese tea ceremony, where the preparation and presentation enhance the actual consumption of the tea. Model builders and serious stamp collectors probably get similar pleasure from the almost ritualistic precision with which they build and paint models, or mount stamps.

There are probably many reasons why people still enjoy playing records, and it really isn't necessary that we understand all of the reasons, as long as we respect the rights of others to have them. :)
 
#16 ·
Why vinyl?

Because leather records tend to grab the needle.

Why vinyl?

Because you can't "scratch" with tape

Why vinyl?

Because calling them "records" sounds so low brow

Why vinyl?

Because you can't screw around with CD players--but you can with record players.

Why vinyl?

Because your old 8-tracks jammed

Why vinyl?

Because it is interesting to play with old tech and learning were all this came from

Why don't I use vinyl?

Because I HAD to use it as a kid--been there, done that.

Enjoy the hobby :)
 
#21 · (Edited)
^Agreed. Good points, R Swerdlow.

Unfortunately many vinyl proponents claim that although vinyl CD has a better inherent dynamic range, as a medium, they claim that when it comes to much rock music, for whatever reason, the record producers have [quite absurdly] decided to put larger dynamic range recordings on the inferior dynamic range medium, vinyl! :eek:

As you probably know they cite [questionable] DR ratings from the TT Meter [which I've determined can be tricked by several factors including the insertion of a rumble filter] supposedly showing the same rock album on vinyl has a greater dynamic range than on CD. While I admit this is possible, theoretically, it seems quite strange.

Might you know of some source which addresses this topic using evidence based science, not speculation and sighted, non-level matched, anecdotal observations?

edit: corrected word to "CD"
 
#22 ·
I grew up with vinyl but have 3000+ CDs in addition to hundreds of downloads of varying provenance (some true hi res, some converted hi res, some mp3 for stuff that I didn't think extra bits really mattered). I have a 35 year old Denon turntable that still plays fine, and has occasionally seen some use in recent years for LPs I have that I don't have a digital version of. So I'm not really part of the current "vinyl renaissance" but I do have a couple of friends that are and know a couple of audiophiles who never accepted digital.

Here's my take on reasons for vinyl.


  • Large format physical artwork. Especially for gatefold type LPs you can't get anything like that with another format. There is definitely something to be said for having that for a favorite artist / album.
  • Vinyl almost forces you to sit down and pay attention - as the cartoon mentioned, it's the inconvenience, but that has the silver lining of sort of forcing you to engage more with the music.
  • There are some recordings where the CD is mastered differently than that LP, so the claim that LPs sound better is true in these cases but ONLY because the CD has been created from one of those brickwalled masters while the LP wasn't.
  • There is an elegance and art to the physical reproduction of sound by a tactile transducer. Some folks appreciate and enjoy that aspect of it - a turntable can be almost like a piece of fine art. (And similarly, beauty is in the eye of the beholder or purchaser.)
 
#24 · (Edited)
Vinyl almost forces you to sit down and pay attention - as the cartoon mentioned, it's the inconvenience, but that has the silver lining of sort of forcing you to engage more with the music.
I'm 63 so I had a couple of decades experience with LPs before digital came along. When I read comments like this I really don't understand. How exactly does having to get up at the end of side one to flip the record over have anything to do with how you engage with the music? What effects my engagement with the music is the music itself.

And while I often listen to albums straight through, I find the convenience of being able to skip the odd stinker without having to get up a wonderful thing. Not every album is wall to wall perfection or was created to be listened to as single work. Many of even the best albums are just collections of good songs, so being able to put playlists together sometimes is also great.
 
#23 ·
I am a very practical listener, I believe to get the best sound quality with the least amount of money. If LP does not give me better sound, I would not spend a dime on a turntable and a phono preamp.

I grew up with vinyl, I had a big collection and I either dumped them or gave them away, all of them. I don't even remember where I dumped the turntable. As I said before, the only reason I created this thread is because someone has a good budget for some great speakers and amp, but he want turntable and phono preamp that water down the budget.

Not to mention you can't find vinyl for new music. I never understand why people keep looking back instead of looking forward. The quality of musicians, quality of arrangement and the quality of recording have improved so drastically that I just cannot see going back to the old days and listen to those music anymore.
 
#126 ·
Some questions:
How quickly are you looking forward compared to those looking backwards?
How many CDs do you have?
How quickly will you throw away your CDs once DVD music is more prevalent?
Will you replace all your CDs with DVD music?
How quickly will you throw away your DVDs once something replaces DVD music?
Did you find no enjoyment in selecting albums to play and being more involved in the music playing, checking out the album art in many cases, etc?
Do you listen to low quality MP3?
Do you buy digital download music from Amazon, Apple, etc. that is at very low quality but pay top dollar for it?

I too threw away all my old albums. But I also never had that many. Maybe 50. I have maybe 700 cds all ripped to as high a quality as I can. I believe that in many cases, the vinyl sound warmer to me then Digital. I also enjoyed playing albums. Got me up off my butt every once in a while. The dead space, white noise, and clicks from vinyl do not bother me. I actually enjoy that if anything. It is nostalgic. Even when I watch a movie with music being played on an old phonograph I think that is cool. We used to have one when I was a kid with the records to play on it. Very cool.

There is some fun to vinyl that you do not get from CDs. Put a scratch through 10% of your CD and 10% of your vinyl. CD is kind of ruined. Not so much the vinyl. CDs may be better then vinyl. But not hands down in every way, shape, or form. No one sits around on the floor with their friends playing songs from different albums and drinking a beer or two anymore. Heck, few even have friends anymore. Records were much more friend eliciting. Now you can just rip it and email it to them and not even talk to them let alone see them. Lots of good things about vinyl!

Nothing beats finding your parents old Holiday records and playing them. Well, maybe in 25 to 50 years people will be doing that with their parents old CDs. But I don't think so. Digital is not better in every way. Not for me.

Peace and Blessings
 
#25 · (Edited)
70 years young here: I cut my teeth on turntables and trying to get the best out of its technology: my experience is in the broadcast industry and I always loved music.

then CD's came along: big step up for me (after the industry went through its learning curve as it always must do, to get the new technology right)

now I prefer HD audio (like from a BD) and Tidal streaming...go figure

from time to time, after spending too much time reading AVS and how wonderful LP's can sound on a good turntable, I revisited the technology: spent more money on a high end turntable, cartridge, new LP's: and reached the same conclusion: LP's do not come close to the newest technology now available to us

just my $.02 cents

but I still appreciate that many members still cherish their turntables and its sound, and they are welcome here
 
#26 ·
70 years young here: ....

but I still appreciate that many members still cherish their turntables and its sound, and they are welcome here

As are those that may be much younger and want to enjoy (good and bad) what "we" grew up listening to in our homes. ;)
 
#29 ·
Whatever floats your boat.

My now 31 year old daughter got into big time and I gave he my old TT and related gear and she dove in head first; I'm guessing her and her b/f spent $5000 on vinyl in just a few years.

Last Christmas I bought her a vinyl version of the excellent Morphine album "Cure For Pain."

A few months ago when I was over there taking care of her cats while she was out of town and I noticed it still hadn't been opened.

When she got back and I asked her she sheepishly told me that her and the b/f had "discovered" that using the laptop to stream their music was more convenient especially when they were in the back yard.

I hope, at some point, she rips to digital any vinyl she doesn't already have in digital.

I guess the new stylus I bought her for her Birthday, and installed, has zero hours on it. :p
 
#31 ·
What if CDs were played 'in the open' like records are ? You put them on a platter and the laser read them under a dust cover ?


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#33 · (Edited)
What if CDs were played 'in the open' like records are ? You put them on a platter and the laser read them under a dust cover ?
"If"? I've sold several incarnations of just that.:) Usually such classier machines used a glass cover instead of plastic so you could see the disc spin underneath. Bang and Olufsen has had several.

Sony even had a transportable one where most of the spinning disc wasn't even in the machine nor
covered:



And for our vinyl friends:


This last one needs a bluetooth transmitter so you can hear it on your big system. The Doppler distortion would go away plus most people have better stereos than what's built into that van.
 
#37 ·
There is absolutely no audible value in increasing sampling rate. Show me someone that's ever been able to pick 192k over 44.1k, blind, repeatedly.
Getting all bothered about 20kHz is a waste of time anyway as there is little to nothing of musical value up there.
 
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#89 ·
Give Michael Fremer a call. :D

Note it's not a matter of 192K always sounding better as it depends who's producing the file, the source material, etc.

But for material for which it matters, the difference between 16/44.1 and 24/96 is not subtle, though the difference between 24/96 and 24/192 certainly is.
 
#38 ·
fwiw, its purly nostalgic reasons for me. as the older i get (near 60) just looking at an album cover brings back some great memories . just not the same looking at the same cd of the album. would i start a lp collection today if i did not already have one? no. i have heard some pretty bad compressd cd's though
 
#40 · (Edited)
I've stayed out of this thread because 1) I've been out of town and 2) my thoughts on the subject are very well known. What gets lost is that I also have a large CD collection of around 4,000+/- plus my download collection is also growing rapidly. Much of my CD collection are duplicates of what I already had on vinyl for car use in the day before we had some of the current technology for mobile use. Some of it did come from Hear Music at 3rd Street Promenade in Santa Monica and other eclectic type retailers.

You're correct, pure nostalgia is one major reason I won't let it go. Especially, the early ones that my grandpa bought for me at live concerts when I was a little snot faced kid, and then would run up to the stage to get Harry James, Buddy Rich, Stan Kenton, Miles Davis, John Coltrane, etc. and etc. to autograph them. The cover art is another. Also somewhat known is that I'm a big ECM fan and the cover art almost gives me a slight buzz https://www.flickr.com/groups/ecmrecordcoverphotographs/pool/. Needless to say, it looks a little better on a 12" format than a CD liner. A side benefit is that these are great recordings. Thank you Manfred Eicher as you've brought me much pleasure and even on CD for cross country road trips.

I've pretty much stopped buying CDs and now it's downloads and new vinyl. I'm well versed on the issues with regards to vinyl so frankly, it's a shock how good it can sound for a 110 year old format, and I still in most instances prefer it to CD (that is also well known so no need to relitigate). I'm also well aware that it's very spendy for analog to compete or exceed the sound quality I can achieve with CDs.

I had been listening to CDs all day during my work day on my budget system up here, but have threatened for a very long time to see what I could do with budget vinyl playback. Well, last week someone in another thread made me aware that Music Direct, who has great sales from time to time, and I'm cheap so this caught my attention. They had and may still have some of the 'loss leader' Musical Fidelity Roundtable for $299 instead of $1,000 so I ordered immediately. The preinstalled AT 95e was rubbish, but I've had this Ortofon Blue that I used for a very short time in the big VPI and hated it. However, it's a great combo in this table. It's a credible table for that kind of money and sounds fine even with the built in phono stage in the little Yamaha AS-301 with the Elac B6s. True, the Elacs don't have the resolving capabilities to expose the flaws that the electrostatics do so well, but for a modest system or 2nd system that's not played extremely loud, where someone still wants some capability to play LPs, this is great. ABed next to my big table using the ESLs, well, yeah, flaws are exposed, but standalone on a modest system, yeah, I recommend it.


 
#43 ·
........ I remember I had to buy the third Jimmy Hendrix "Band of Gypsy" as I worn two out..

Only 3? Me too.


Epic performance. I have so many versions, vinyl x2 which has not seen the light of day in many years and all the various CD issues.


"Rest Easy Jimi"
 
#48 ·
I think its a tiny (yet sometimes outspoken) minority of LP enthusiasts that actually think they are superior technically to most digital formats.

I like LPs, they are fun and nostalgic. Its that simple for many of us. A fun experiment would be to compile some statistics for this sub forum for post counts that are pro record based on some imaginary technical advantage, vs the number of posts that are antagonist towards that viewpoint. My guess is the results would be heavily skewed towards the later category.
 
#57 ·
I think the recent surge in sales is due to hipsters more than anything else. There have been audio bs related to lps ever since CDs were released and the growith is only recent. I think most new record sales end up on crosley tables by people who don't know the difference between a bit and a belt. Micheal fremer and friends have been saying the same stuff for decades, but it's easy to find crazies in any field


Sorry if y'all misdetected some sort of argumentative tone. It wasn't my intention . I was completely literal when I said that I think it would be interesting to compile some statistics related to forum posts here. My guess is that the people who support lps as a technically superior medium are in the minority
 
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