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Why does PS4 optical output sound better than HDMI?

28K views 75 replies 17 participants last post by  markrubin 
#1 ·
Why does the optical audio output on my PS4 sound better than the HDMI output?
 
#3 ·
Actually, there should be a difference...in favor of HDMI. Optical will not carry the HD audio formats (DTS-MA, True HD).
 
#5 ·
C'mon.... of course there could be a difference depending on the audio format. But assuming S/PDIF vs. HDMI using PCM or bitstream, there should be no difference. Also to take note: The OP stated, "Why does the optical audio output on my PS4 sound better than the HDMI output?" So, that blows the HDMI should sound better theory in this case. ;)
 
#6 ·
Imagination.

Could be because of levels - perhaps the optical port is playing the audio louder than the HDMI. Everyone knows louder sounds better... Even if the real difference is only a dB or so.
Imagination.
 
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#7 ·
It seems like "Imagination" and/or "Minor level mismatch which you are only aware of at a subliminal level" covers at least half of the questions I see in this forum and not once have I ever encountered a single person who replied along the lines of, "Gee, ya know, it might indeed just be my imagination. Thanks for pointing that out."

Whereas those of us who point it out are demonized as being cruel.:mad:
 
#8 ·
Whereas those of us who point it out are demonized as being cruel.
Tormenting audiophiles, greenies and kittens is one of my hobbies.
 
#10 ·
Digital outputs don't actually sound like anything. However, the optical digital signal will "look" like something with the light going through the fiber optic ;)
 
#13 ·
Thank goodness I backed up my computer files recently, but because I used a cheap USB cord to my outboard hard drive now all my digital photos have a reddish tint to them and lower contrast. . . probably lower micro details and some high frequency image smearing too. . .if I knew what those meant.

I'm terrified to even listen to my music files since I bet a lot of those 0's and 1's were corrupted and are now like 7's and 3's.

[entire post sarcasm]
 
#14 ·
I always wondered how NASA got back and forth to space with their 8086 Intel processor technology age computers that must have had all that data corruption. LOL
 
#15 ·
I was able to play with a Minuteman controller; it used printed-circuit boards to hold discrete transistor flip-flops. NASA also used core memory a times as it was proven and more reliable in space.

OTOH back in college I watched a video of the flight test of a short-range missile that spiraled out of control because the microcontroller team, designing the actual CPU, got out of synch with the programmers who were emulating the logic with a bit-slice logic mockup. The CPU team was optimizing instructions to speed up the processor, but the programmers were depending upon timing loops in their mockup that no longer matched what the CPU actually did. Timing loops gone awry in a navigation system can have undesirable results. :) The professor used it to make a point about logic circuits and timing, but it was also a point about working together and communication among various project teams. Sadly, the latter still seems an issue today...
 
#17 · (Edited)
Jitter is one of the primary scaremonger issues invented by the so-called "high end" industry used to sell overpriced DACs and digital interconnect wires.

One such salesman used to plaster our forum with constant rants and relentless dog and pony shows ala "Look everyone, see this chart? Numbers don't lie. This one is larger than this other one so that proves it. Paul Miller from Hi-Fi News shows how terrible this Yamaha RX-V3900 is so you should all be afraid and seek my advice. . . What's that? Double blind, level matched listen tests, you say? Why do we need those? . . .This number is bigger than this other one. That's all you need to know".

Boy, I hope we don't now have a repeat of this garbage.
 
#20 · (Edited)
Well the jitter on HDMI audio is several magnitudes higher than SPDIF. Some devices have been measured with jitter in the microsecond range.

Still I don;t think it would be audible except possibly in very critical listening.

The technical reason is that HDMI audio (as well as HDSDI) is transmitted in packet form. The audio stream is not continuous but rather carried as high speed data bursts in-between the horizontal pixel lines. And furthermore it must be locked to the video pixel clock to be embedded in the video stream. It is the audio mux and demuxing and divide up/down to the audio rate clock where the jitter sneaks in if poorly done.
 
#21 ·
Do you have any evidence that any DAC, in any AVR, ever made, including the boogieman model the high end DAC salesmen like to trot out to scare people, the dreaded Yamaha RX-V3900, is audibly compromised when using HDMI in, under double blind, level matched conditions?
 
#27 · (Edited)
Because once the audio sample words are compressed, there is no longer a precise relationship between the sample clock and the transport stream clock. There is much buffering in the encode / decode process. Now the clock source for the final DAC must be low jitter.

And I should also point out that if the compressed transport stream jitter is bad enough, you won't be able to decode the stream in the first place. But that would be rare these days.
 
#31 ·
...then it was either chopped or rotten. But difference is not audible really. Except for a chainsaw.
 
#30 ·
Moar info please. What is it being played through? What's the content? What audio format is the content in? What time of day are you making your comparison?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
#38 ·
Moar info please. What is it being played through? What's the content? What audio format is the content in? What time of day are you making your comparison?
It is being played through a Marantz AV7703, using Atmos 5.1.2 upmixing, into Emotiva XPA amplification and Tyler Decade speakers with a Seaton Submersive. The room is dedicated, and features appropriate GIK Acoustic treatments. Cabling is midrange AudioQuest and power conditioning is Furman for those who think such things matter. The content is games. The input audio format is 2-channel PCM. Comparisons are made between the early afternoons and early mornings. Apropos of other comments on the thread, playback is level-matched and the nature of "better" is that the sound is less harsh and voices sound more like voices.
 
#34 ·
I did nothing but quote from post #24.

I attempted to use a well known philosophical analogy, which I assumed you were familiar with. Apparently not. ;)

IMHO, like a business or financial institution, audio manufacturers and retailers "fudge the numbers" to promote their product and divert attention from competitors.

The only numbers that should be important are those that bypass human's 5 senses... radiation and CO. :)

How that "rabbit hole"? :D
 
#36 · (Edited)
I did nothing but quote from post #24.


I attempted to use a well known philosophical analogy, which I assumed you were familiar with. Apparently not. ;)


... How that "rabbit hole"? :D
Geez, he was being facetious. Even I could see that.
 
#53 ·
I'm back.

Here's the article, which is written for consumers but is modified from a technical JAES paper he wrote, I believe:

I can't seem to cut and paste from the PDF, so instead I took a screen grab of part of the conclusion which explains the point I was making that anyone with simple measuring tools can pop in a test CD into their disc player, connect it to their AVR via HDMI, and if the THD + D figures come out as being adequately low, which they pretty much always are [not that I've seen every single combination of disc player to AVR, of course] then you can safely be assured that the jitter figure is at a safe level as well since it would be manifested as a problem with the THD + N spec if it was objectionably high.


screen grab is from PDF page 30 which is the actual magazine's page 33 from the Audio Critic magazine
article: Clock Jitter, D/A Converters, and Sample Rate Conversion by Robert Adams
http://www.biline.ca/audio_critic/mags/The_Audio_Critic_21_r.pdf
 

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#55 ·
I'm back.

Here's the article, which is written for consumers but is modified from a technical JAES paper he wrote, I believe:

I can't seem to cut and paste from the PDF, so instead I took a screen grab of part of the conclusion which explains the point I was making that anyone with simple measuring tools can pop in a test CD into their disc player, connect it to their AVR via HDMI, and if the THD + D figures come out as being adequately low, which they pretty much always are [not that I've seen every single combination of disc player to AVR, of course] then you can safely be assured that the jitter figure is at a safe level as well since it would be manifested as a problem with the THD + N spec if it was objectionably high.


screen grab is from PDF page 30 which is the actual magazine's page 33 from the Audio Critic magazine
article: Clock Jitter, D/A Converters, and Sample Rate Conversion by Robert Adams
http://www.biline.ca/audio_critic/mags/The_Audio_Critic_21_r.pdf
"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Adams_(electrical_engineer)
Now in 2017 - we can make objective measurement at the outputs down to the Pico second range with THD and IMD sideband resolution to -140d. In 1993, we weren't even sure what we needed to look at let alone, have the gear to see it. The test metric is different now.
 
#57 ·
On my Marantz prepro, when I turn off every single processing device there is and switch between conventional and "Pure Direct" mode I get a .2 dB bump in level. [I measured it.] That shouldn't be since I already have bypassed everything, but it is just enough to fool people that "Pure Direct" sounds better whereas all it is really is a tiny volume level mismatch that hardly anyone would even think to check for.
 
#65 · (Edited)
Yeah that bench one would due. I should have said i hope that he didn't use a hand held, as most are not True RMS or of sufficient resolution.

I would like to hear from him about what gear he used how he went about it ie:

1. What frequency is his dB score based upon?
2. What was his test signal (frequency gen or CD, etc)?
3. What make and model(s) frontend, suite or field type gear?
4. was his measurement converted dB?

Obviously, his answers will beget a few more questions, but will help answer the question in my mind, whether or not to seriously consider his claim, in hand.

I suspect, he used a hand held (non-RMS) multi-meter, a test disk, and likely only measure one frequency. I further suspect that he did the voltage conversion to dB manually and probably round the voltages off.

These are my assumptions, if he answers my questions then I no longer has to assume.

For me, I'd like to see a full sweep from a proper test suite from Audio Precision. 20Hz-20HKz, when arbitrary claim of just .2dB are being posted without proper citation of gear and conditions.

He's claimed to have discover the root of an audible difference. Which is great, as long as he discloses what gear, test metric and condition the measurement was made under, for us to proper weight and objective validity his claim.
 
#69 ·
It seems pretty obvious who must hang out at the What's Best Forum a lot. Or what's that other newer one called, I forget, is it, "Trust me, this is the REAL audio science forum." :p

The DAC and the DAW were ones I found in the garbage, covered with mud, made in whatever country makes the worst ones, both cracked and patched with duct tape, and there was a warning label which read: "Do not use to make even remotely accurate measurements, plus you are incompetent anyways".

If I recall correctly the brand was Fisher. Wait, no, strike that, it was Fischer-Price. . . B-stock.
 
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#70 · (Edited)
I am Gobsmacked



Never heard of those other forums.

Not sure why you would post a claim, then when asked some fairs questions, why you would behave like this?

I'm not sure how anyone could have a decent discussion in here, with all the senseless mudslinging going on. It's very tiring, and non-productive.

All that you have stated is that you came to a conclusion based on your personal measurements, then disclosed that you didn't use measurement software, or a proper frontend, and then dumped a truckload of mud in my front yard. What are you hoping that I infer from all of this; that your conclusion is some how correct - well that isn't likely, so what gives?

Thanks for wasting my time and the time of others!

PS to Ratman, my dad passed away less than 3-weeks ago. next time you feel like being cheeky, perhaps you should take it in a different direction, and not head into potentially very personal arena's, just my two-cents!

I will leave you guys to your own devices.
 
#71 ·
Doktard makes an excellent point that on many units, including Denon and Marantz, you can have independent settings per input and unless you scroll through extensive menu settings it may not be readily apparent that they may be set differently on say the HDMI IN and the digital IN which one is comparing.
+1
 
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