How low do you hear this as a tone? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 6Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 49 Old 02-10-2017, 10:58 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,203
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1857 Post(s)
Liked: 1181
How low do you hear this as a tone?

Set the volume on your system such that my voice sounds like it is at a natural level and leave it there for the whole test (as if I am there in the room speaking normally, not amplified). At what frequency do you no longer hear the bass note in this download test as a tonal bass note? Try to ignore, as best you can, any distortions and room rattles and stop if your perception changes from a tone to individual slap/puffs of air against your skin. Focus on if you hear it as a pure tone, just like how it started at 100Hz, but of course much lower in frequency as the tone descends down to 1 Hz.

My voiceover will be accompanied by the following pure tones:
100 Hz, 80, 60, 50, 40, 30hz (and then I switch to single units at 25Hz and lower)
25Hz, 24, 23, 22, 21, 20, 19, 18, 17, 16, 15, 14, 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, and finally 1Hz.

The test, new and improved version 3 with lower noise, intro and fades :

[Sorry if Dropbox asks if you want sign up for an account; just SCROLL DOWN and click "No thanks, just view/download the file".]

https://www.dropbox.com/s/t9p5jmpt64...fades.wav?dl=0

This test is just out of my curiosity regarding what kind of bass extension people in the forum have at home, plus my examination of equal loudness contours first studied by Fletcher and Munson in the 1930s but refined a few times since then, which indicates that without strong amplification deep bass perception plummets like a rock:


Feel free to list your subwooferage or if you use full range speakers instead, what those are.
This is just for fun but please be honest and just use your ears!

You can watch your woofer move in and out just for fun after the listening test part!
[This test also can help find rattles in your room.]

This test is for the benefit of, and private use of, AVSforum members only and may not be used or linked to by any commercial enterprise.

Last edited by m. zillch; Yesterday at 09:52 PM.
m. zillch is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 49 Old Yesterday, 05:38 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Europe, Croatia
Posts: 1,093
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 632 Post(s)
Liked: 320
Your voiceover is accompanied by ridiculous noise floor.
This below is right way to do it, although it doesn't go low as yours.
http://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests...cychecklow.php
ChromeJob likes this.

Revel Ultima Salon 2, Revel M106, Revel C208, Yamaha P5000S, Denon X5200, Panasonic 65" VT50, SVS PC13-Ultra
Kef LS50, Parasound New Classic, Focusrite 2i2
donktard is online now  
post #3 of 49 Old Yesterday, 01:59 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,203
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1857 Post(s)
Liked: 1181
Quote:
Originally Posted by donktard View Post
Your voiceover is accompanied by ridiculous noise floor.
So the noise was so loud it masked the bass?

I'm just a hobbiest recording with a cheap mic, and cheap voice recorder, in his kitchen, with city noise in the background I can't control. The bass part however was generated digitally and should be clean. I don't have the facilities or budget to make a professional studio quality version however the gist of what I hope to accomplish should still work even if there is some background noise.

Nonetheless, I have just spent considerable time cleaning it up a bit to reduce the noise.

Please tell me what your results are with the new upload, version 2, now posted in the opening post. Thanks.
m. zillch is offline  
 
post #4 of 49 Old Yesterday, 02:57 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Gooddoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,314
Mentioned: 131 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2684 Post(s)
Liked: 1849
My computer speakers go down to 60 Hz
m. zillch likes this.
Gooddoc is online now  
post #5 of 49 Old Yesterday, 03:11 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Gooddoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,314
Mentioned: 131 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2684 Post(s)
Liked: 1849
Ok, I can "hear" the bass down to about 13Hz, feel it down to about 9 hz and, have good door shake down to 6Hz, some slight door rattle in the back of the room to about 3Hz and I can "hear" the driver excursion all the way down to 1 Hz, but that is localized to the sub boxes themselves.
Gooddoc is online now  
post #6 of 49 Old Yesterday, 03:18 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,203
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1857 Post(s)
Liked: 1181
Thanks.

Hearing driver excursion at 1 Hz at a normal seated distance at the test's prescribed (make my voice normal) reproduction level? That would imply to me your voice coil might be scraping which is not good.

Without wires connected try pushing it in and out gently with you fingers. If you feel a scrape or friction that's not good.
m. zillch is offline  
post #7 of 49 Old Yesterday, 03:23 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,203
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1857 Post(s)
Liked: 1181
I too can make all sorts of things in my room dance, shake, rattle and roll. It is a good way to find things you need to bolt down so they don't distract from the movie/music.
m. zillch is offline  
post #8 of 49 Old Yesterday, 03:29 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,203
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1857 Post(s)
Liked: 1181
When I read some scientific, published papers on deep bass they sometimes make absolutely no mention of running pre-tests, at all frequencies, or a sweep, to find all these things which need to be bolted down, hence I wonder if the researchers have made a fundamental blunder.
m. zillch is offline  
post #9 of 49 Old Yesterday, 04:07 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Europe, Croatia
Posts: 1,093
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 632 Post(s)
Liked: 320
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
So the noise was so loud it masked the bass?

I'm just a hobbiest recording with a cheap mic, and cheap voice recorder, in his kitchen, with city noise in the background I can't control. The bass part however was generated digitally and should be clean. I don't have the facilities or budget to make a professional studio quality version however the gist of what I hope to accomplish should still work even if there is some background noise.

Nonetheless, I have just spent considerable time cleaning it up a bit to reduce the noise.

Please tell me what your results are with the new upload, version 2, now posted in the opening post. Thanks.
I listened on Sennheiser HD800 headphones. Without equal loudness contour, for any hope of hearing around 20 Hz I had to turn up headphones enough so your noise floor becomes apparent. But once I EQ'd headphones for equal loudness contour (or close) I was able to listen all the way down to 20 and less with noise floor gone.
You probably just have poor mic or messed up gain when recording.

Anyway, whats your point? Setting volume to "natural" level is very imprecise and subjective (preference/idea of natural + hearing loss). It is very likely that anyone without considerable bass boost (loudness curve or downward slope) won't hear much below 25-30 Hz and feel even less below that. Also someone who is flat and tries to crank up overall volume just to feel and hear below 25 Hz probably won't be happy with loudness of your voice (especially if main speakers can't keep up).
So you won't really get proper idea of what is someones system capable of and whats it doing...and I can tell you that, from my prior measurements and listening:
- my sub (SVS) is flat down to 16 Hz, I can probably hear down to 20 and weird stuff starts somewhere there and below. But I actually run bass boosted somwhere around +8dB (don't recall correctly, I made few minor tweaks), because listening full spectrum at reference is too loud for me so I just boost bass to compensate for it and listen at around -6-10.

Revel Ultima Salon 2, Revel M106, Revel C208, Yamaha P5000S, Denon X5200, Panasonic 65" VT50, SVS PC13-Ultra
Kef LS50, Parasound New Classic, Focusrite 2i2

Last edited by donktard; Yesterday at 04:12 PM.
donktard is online now  
post #10 of 49 Old Yesterday, 04:11 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Europe, Croatia
Posts: 1,093
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 632 Post(s)
Liked: 320
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
When I read some scientific, published papers on deep bass they sometimes make absolutely no mention of running pre-tests, at all frequencies, or a sweep, to find all these things which need to be bolted down, hence I wonder if the researchers have made a fundamental blunder.
Well technically, if they do such experiments in envirnoment with lots of concrete, there wouldn't be no much infrastructural rattle, compared to some wooden house for example. And that would be a sensible thing to do for such experiment...small concrete room for maximum gain and as much containment as possible.

Revel Ultima Salon 2, Revel M106, Revel C208, Yamaha P5000S, Denon X5200, Panasonic 65" VT50, SVS PC13-Ultra
Kef LS50, Parasound New Classic, Focusrite 2i2
donktard is online now  
post #11 of 49 Old Yesterday, 05:38 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,203
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1857 Post(s)
Liked: 1181
Quote:
Originally Posted by donktard View Post
Well technically, if they do such experiments in envirnoment with lots of concrete, there wouldn't be no much infrastructural rattle, compared to some wooden house for example. And that would be a sensible thing to do for such experiment...small concrete room for maximum gain and as much containment as possible.
Even if you put a naked person, a listener, in a sealed concrete room, with no light fixtures, door, windows, etc. Just a subwoofer. You still have to worry about the cord leading to the sub rattling against the cabinet or ground, the AC cord, and the internal wires which connect the sub's back connection plate to the other components including the lead to the woofer's +/- terminals. I.e. there's always things in the room which might rattle. You'll see when you run this test on your sub and crank it up.
m. zillch is offline  
post #12 of 49 Old Yesterday, 05:57 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Europe, Croatia
Posts: 1,093
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 632 Post(s)
Liked: 320
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Even if you put a naked person, a listener, in a sealed concrete room, with no light fixtures, door, windows, etc. Just a subwoofer. You still have to worry about the cord leading to the sub rattling against the cabinet or ground, the AC cord, and the internal wires which connect the sub's back connection plate to the other components including the lead to the woofer's +/- terminals. I.e. there's always things in the room which might rattle. You'll see when you run this test on your sub and crank it up.
Did it numerous times. I know about everything in my room that resonates and rattles at various frequencies. Although cable is not one of those...that would be easy fix, its really not a problem to fix cable tightly on a floor, or leave it float in the air (tense) so it doesn't hit adjacent objects.

But if you wanna be really thorough...you should also account for speaker motor and suspension noise.

Revel Ultima Salon 2, Revel M106, Revel C208, Yamaha P5000S, Denon X5200, Panasonic 65" VT50, SVS PC13-Ultra
Kef LS50, Parasound New Classic, Focusrite 2i2
donktard is online now  
post #13 of 49 Old Yesterday, 06:05 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,203
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1857 Post(s)
Liked: 1181
Quote:
Originally Posted by donktard View Post
I listened on Sennheiser HD800 headphones. Without equal loudness contour, for any hope of hearing around 20 Hz I had to turn up headphones enough so your noise floor becomes apparent..
I apologize for "my" rotten noise floor during the 20Hz section part without my voice over:


I think you missed the part of the instructions which said to not touch your volume knob during the actual test, by the way.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	20Hz pure tone section no voiceover.JPG
Views:	109
Size:	256.4 KB
ID:	1960329  

Last edited by m. zillch; Yesterday at 06:17 PM.
m. zillch is offline  
post #14 of 49 Old Yesterday, 06:05 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Gooddoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,314
Mentioned: 131 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2684 Post(s)
Liked: 1849
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Thanks.

Hearing driver excursion at 1 Hz at a normal seated distance at the test's prescribed (make my voice normal) reproduction level? That would imply to me your voice coil might be scraping which is not good.

Without wires connected try pushing it in and out gently with you fingers. If you feel a scrape or friction that's not good.
No, it's not that kind of sound at all. There is nothing distressful about it.

All my comments were at fairly normal voice levels.
Gooddoc is online now  
post #15 of 49 Old Yesterday, 06:13 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,203
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1857 Post(s)
Liked: 1181
So what does a woofer moving in and out at 1 Hz sound like then?

I was picturing the sound of a mouse rocking in a rocking chair, sort of a creeking sound, but I guess I was wrong.

Last edited by m. zillch; Yesterday at 06:20 PM.
m. zillch is offline  
post #16 of 49 Old Yesterday, 06:24 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,203
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1857 Post(s)
Liked: 1181
Quote:
Originally Posted by donktard View Post
Anyway, whats your point? . . . It is very likely that anyone without considerable bass boost (loudness curve or downward slope) won't hear much below 25-30 Hz and feel even less below that..
Yes, that was essentially my point.
donktard likes this.
m. zillch is offline  
post #17 of 49 Old Yesterday, 06:32 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Europe, Croatia
Posts: 1,093
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 632 Post(s)
Liked: 320
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
I apologize for "my" rotten noise floor during the 20Hz section part without my voice over:


I think you missed the part of the instructions which said to not touch your volume knob during the actual test, by the way.
Heh, no worries there, I listened once without turning it up, then asked myself where are the lows. Found them at louder levels...HD800 just has a really weak bass (measures flat which is bad for headphones), and those resonances around 4khz emphasise your noise floor.

Now you just need to learn how to CROSSFADE properly so you'd get rid of those annoying clicks between sinewave samples and you are on a good way to become a sound engineer

Revel Ultima Salon 2, Revel M106, Revel C208, Yamaha P5000S, Denon X5200, Panasonic 65" VT50, SVS PC13-Ultra
Kef LS50, Parasound New Classic, Focusrite 2i2
donktard is online now  
post #18 of 49 Old Yesterday, 06:56 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Gooddoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,314
Mentioned: 131 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2684 Post(s)
Liked: 1849
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
So what does a woofer moving in and out at 1 Hz sound like then?

I was picturing the sound of a mouse rocking in a rocking chair, sort of a creeking sound, but I guess I was wrong.
Like a faint rotor blade in slow motion. Best I can do
m. zillch likes this.
Gooddoc is online now  
post #19 of 49 Old Yesterday, 07:05 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,203
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1857 Post(s)
Liked: 1181
Quote:
Originally Posted by donktard View Post
Heh, no worries there, I listened once without turning it up, then asked myself where are the lows.
Exactly! They're gone because Fletcher and Munson were right!

Quote:
Originally Posted by donktard View Post
HD800 just has a really weak bass (measures flat which is bad for headphones),
That's a common view held by most people regarding headphones, but not mine.

When you ask Tyll or anyone else who spouts that and ask why we want a bass boost with headphones yet not with reference quality monitor speakers the answer is a completely wishy-washy one along the lines of "Well, we hear differently with headphones." That's not an answer.

Do tell Tyll, how does your eardrum know if the arriving sound came from a headphone or a room? It doesn't know at all! Arguing you want a different response at the eardrum depending on the source is silly. The reason people say headphones should have elevated bass is because it gives them an excuse to hear elevated bass and they prefer that, largely because of equal loudness contours. No reason to be ashamed of it though. Go for it!

I think having a fairly flat bass response, which your phones do, is the way to go and then apply EQ when you want it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by donktard View Post
Now you just need to learn how to CROSSFADE properly so you'd get rid of those annoying clicks between sinewave samples and you are on a good way to become a sound engineer
Actually, as Arny once pointed out to me the clicks have the benefit that they give an audible marker so you know exactly when the transition occurs, whereas when I say the words, for example, "20 Hertz" that's a long period of time especially when the target signal itself only lasts for two seconds before moving on to the next.
m. zillch is offline  
post #20 of 49 Old Yesterday, 07:08 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
torii's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 1,738
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 794 Post(s)
Liked: 400
I need a how to for what you are asking

Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5 Subs: Velodyne HGS 12, VA 1512, Rythmik FV15HP
torii is online now  
post #21 of 49 Old Yesterday, 07:10 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Europe, Croatia
Posts: 1,093
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 632 Post(s)
Liked: 320
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
Like a faint rotor blade in slow motion. Best I can do
If you have any sort of microphone, you can basically record what you hear. 1Hz probably wont be picked up (depending on mic) but surely won't be heard, the only thing we will hear is various higher frequency noises driver makes. I suppose SPL won't be sufficient to disturb anything else in your room.

Revel Ultima Salon 2, Revel M106, Revel C208, Yamaha P5000S, Denon X5200, Panasonic 65" VT50, SVS PC13-Ultra
Kef LS50, Parasound New Classic, Focusrite 2i2
donktard is online now  
post #22 of 49 Old Yesterday, 07:20 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Gooddoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,314
Mentioned: 131 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2684 Post(s)
Liked: 1849
Quote:
Originally Posted by donktard View Post
If you have any sort of microphone, you can basically record what you hear. 1Hz probably wont be picked up (depending on mic) but surely won't be heard, the only thing we will hear is various higher frequency noises driver makes. I suppose SPL won't be sufficient to disturb anything else in your room.
Yeah, not sure what I'm hearing there and not interested enough to investigate further. Nothing moves, shakes, or rattles and it is very low level.

I was just reporting what I heard since it was asked . I don't have any interest in this aside from some curiosity and a bit of boredom.

To be honest, I was a bit surprised, and pleased, to hear how low my system goes. I would say I have very solid and useful bass down to 15 Hz. I'm good with that.
Gooddoc is online now  
post #23 of 49 Old Yesterday, 07:37 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Europe, Croatia
Posts: 1,093
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 632 Post(s)
Liked: 320
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Exactly! They're gone because Fletcher and Munson were right!
I actually expected to hear it because I misjudged the loudness of previous higher bass frequencies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
That's a common view held by most people regarding headphones, but not mine.

When you ask Tyll or anyone else who spouts that and ask why we want a bass boost with headphones yet not with reference quality monitor speakers the answer is a completely wishy-washy one along the lines of "Well, we hear differently with headphones." That's not an answer.

Do tell Tyll, how does your eardrum know if the arriving sound came from a headphone or a room? It doesn't know at all! Arguing you want a different response at the eardrum depending on the source is silly. The reason people say headphones should have elevated bass is because it gives them an excuse to hear elevated bass and they prefer that, largely because of equal loudness contours. No reason to be ashamed of it though. Go for it!

I think having a fairly flat bass response, which your phones do, is the way to go and then apply EQ when you want it.
Aye, you kinda got me there. While preference, especially for masses is a strong point, its also worthwhile to mention that rarely someone wants to listen loud enough to reach perceivable flatness for long periods of time. And such average consumer doesn't want to be bothered with loudness curves, but he'd rather have some decent amount of bass at average levels in first place.
But it goes both ways, if you have bassy, but well built headphones, you can tone them down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Actually, as Arny once pointed out to me the clicks have the benefit that they give an audible marker so you know exactly when the transition occurs, whereas when I say the words, for example, "20 Hertz" that's a long period of time especially when the target signal itself only lasts for two seconds before moving on to the next.
Well then, put little beeps in between and crossfade properly. Synthesized pops and cracks feel so volatile

Revel Ultima Salon 2, Revel M106, Revel C208, Yamaha P5000S, Denon X5200, Panasonic 65" VT50, SVS PC13-Ultra
Kef LS50, Parasound New Classic, Focusrite 2i2
donktard is online now  
post #24 of 49 Old Yesterday, 07:50 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,203
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1857 Post(s)
Liked: 1181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
To be honest, I was a bit surprised, and pleased, to hear how low my system goes. I would say I have very solid and useful bass down to 15 Hz. I'm good with that.
Instead of silly beep tones try some real music that goes that low:

You know you are in for some deep bass when the musical instrument is bigger than a house!
Gooddoc likes this.
m. zillch is offline  
post #25 of 49 Old Yesterday, 08:32 PM
Okv
Senior Member
 
Okv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Aalesund, Norway
Posts: 297
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 103 Post(s)
Liked: 88
Hearing works just fine down to 10Hz, as you can see in this picture:



Perception and limits varies among individuals, but this gives a rough idea. Also note the limits for tactile perception.

To do audibility tests for low frequencies you need measurement equipment to verify that what you are listening to is somewhere close to what you intend to hear, you will easily end up listening to harmonics instead of pure tones, something that may not be obvious at very low frequencies.

Reproducing below 30-40Hz and down to and below 20Hz makes sense, also for music. Lots of sub-bass in music, and sometimes even where you did not expect it. All impulse-like signals - transients, drums - have a very wide frequency distribution, and if the signal is not filtered somewhere in the chain, the will be sub-bass content.

Being able to reproduce this properly makes a real difference for the perceived sound.

Music with sub-bass:

Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	howtosetupa2chsound system_sample1.jpg
Views:	86
Size:	176.9 KB
ID:	1960649   Click image for larger version

Name:	howtosetupa2chsound system_sample2.jpg
Views:	84
Size:	239.4 KB
ID:	1960657  

I am Øyvind Kvålsvoll, owner and founder of Kvålsvoll Design.
Okv is offline  
post #26 of 49 Old Yesterday, 09:17 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,203
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1857 Post(s)
Liked: 1181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Okv View Post
Hearing works just fine down to 10Hz, as you can see in this picture.
What published paper is this from or are you linking from your drawing on your own commercial website?

Last edited by m. zillch; Yesterday at 09:31 PM.
m. zillch is offline  
post #27 of 49 Old Yesterday, 09:50 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,203
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1857 Post(s)
Liked: 1181
Quote:
Originally Posted by donktard View Post
Well then, put little beeps in between and crossfade properly. Synthesized pops and cracks feel so volatile
Well I got rid of all the clicks that at least I heard on my system. Version 3 now posted in my opening post.
I also stressed in the new intro that people must leave the volume at the same level throughout the test even though I know they will cheat because they just can't understand why the sound plummets at 30, 25, or a tad lower since they know their sub goes even lower.

New disclaimer going up in the opening post too:

This test is for the benefit of, and private use of, AVSforum members only and may not be used or linked to by any commercial enterprise.
m. zillch is offline  
post #28 of 49 Old Yesterday, 10:17 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,203
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1857 Post(s)
Liked: 1181
Quote:
Originally Posted by donktard View Post
I actually expected to hear it because I misjudged the loudness of previous higher bass frequencies.
Most people will also expect the same. It is hard to understand why the bass plummets because at 100Hz and 80Hz it seems pretty loud, doesn't it?

Just to be clear to everyone, the bass tone stays at the exact same level for the entire test. The only thing that changes is the frequency of it. The reason your perception of its loudness plummets at some point, probably just under 30 or 25, which is why I convert to single unit increments below that point, is because of a combination of human hearing and/or the limitation of your subwoofer and its room placement.

Fletcher and Munson were the first to analyze groups of people to discover that it always plummets but the steepness varies and is lessened if you listen at a very loud level (see the 100 phon levels on the chart and compare it to the quieter levels). However even at these very loud levels it still drops considerably. The net result is that unless you listen at very loud levels, or the recording has been made with the super deep bass heavily boosted by EQ, you aren't going to have much use for content below 25/20Hz or so.

Last edited by m. zillch; Yesterday at 10:20 PM.
m. zillch is offline  
post #29 of 49 Old Yesterday, 11:47 PM
Member
 
awediophile's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 171
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 122 Post(s)
Liked: 46
The question of infrasonic hearing thresholds has been reviewed very well in this article. This is the same article that I posted twice in the JBL M2 thread.

http://www.noiseandhealth.org/articl...age=57;aulast=

The article reviews a multitude of studies involving all sorts of different methods to try to work this out. There's a lot of valuable info in there. Here is one of the more interesting figures showing hearing thresholds reported from several different studies vs. the threshold curve for the current ISO 226:2003 equal loudness standard:



So 10 Hz is likely to be barely audible at around 100 dB. What's interesting about the infra frequencies is that the hearing dynamic range is very compressed, so small changes in SPL have a big impact on loudness. Here is a very rough sketch of what the contours look like below 20 Hz. Note that phon is the unit of loudness, so sine waves with the same phon will be equally loud:



One more note. Running the test here without changing the level is pointless because in movies the bass is always way higher in SPL than the dialog. Average dialog level with reference level playback tends to be in the low-to-mid 70s dB or less, but some big bass effects can approach or exceed 120 dB, plenty of which may be well below 20 Hz, depending on the film.

There's nothing unnatural about that either. Even in reality, the SPL of low frequencies tends to be much higher than for high frequencies in nature too, for a variety of reasons.
awediophile is online now  
post #30 of 49 Old Today, 12:01 AM
Member
 
awediophile's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 171
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 122 Post(s)
Liked: 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Do tell Tyll, how does your eardrum know if the arriving sound came from a headphone or a room? It doesn't know at all! Arguing you want a different response at the eardrum depending on the source is silly. The reason people say headphones should have elevated bass is because it gives them an excuse to hear elevated bass and they prefer that, largely because of equal loudness contours. No reason to be ashamed of it though. Go for it!
If you take a speaker that measures flat under anechoic conditions and you place it in a room and then listen to it, the sound that reaches your ears will be boosted in the bass because of room boundary effects. That's why headphones should have bass boost.
awediophile is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Audio Theory, Setup, and Chat



Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off