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post #31 of 58 Old 08-09-2017, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Fjodor2000 View Post
What I wrote previously should be sufficient: "professionally performed ABX tests involving a large number of people? [...], do you have any links to those tests?"
http://matrixhifi.com/ENG_contenedor_ppec.htm

As I posted previously, the above was a double blind test. Here are the results

8 persons participated on this test
14 chose the "A" system as the best sounding one
10 chose the "B" system as the best sounding one
14 were not able to hear differences or didn't choose any as the best

Since it is obvious you did not read the link, System A was the Behringer A500/Sony CD player with System B being the Classe' amp with Wadia CD transport/20 bit DAC.

The room was acoustically treated including the ceiling, all the information is in the link.

You could claim the Classe' amp was not good enough for the Wadia CD transport/DAC--those players run over 10,000 Euros... You could claim the MIT interconnects were not good enough but they competed against a 15 foot RCA cable purchased at a gas station.

The tomshardware test was interesting, he ran bench testing on all the DACs first. He found flaws with the 2 buck chip DAC built into a motherboard--but the two audiophiles with hearing tests done to them could not tell the difference. The sensitive testing equipment showed a difference so they wondered if human hearing could identify the flawed DAC. They could not. Tom has a PhD in computer engineering and has full test gear to verify computer performance (He was the guy that found the flaw in the original Pentium chip math processing)

Technically, all DACs sound different--even the same DAC made the same day in the factory. Ultra-sensitive test equipment will show this but your ears never will. Sorry, the ability of the electronics have far exceeded the human ear to tell a difference and this happened many years ago. The same applies for amplifiers and interconnects/wires/power cords have never sounded different if they were spec'd to their proper use in the first place.

As I stated, I did a single blind test 25 years ago--but I was in my early 20's, my hearing was much better than it is now and I was curious. My results were the same as the audiophile group in Spain with 38 people. We used the top of the line Yamaha VS the bottom of the line 4 year old Sony--and could not tell the difference. We used a switch deck, it was single blind and we used 3 different amplifiers and 3 sets of speakers. Our testing was not to double blind ABX standards but the object of the test was to find the difference in speaker cables, CD players and amplifiers--could we find the differences in them? Granted, we ran some rather nice equipment against each other and did not use 15 foot RCA cables from a gas station. The differences were not as extreme as Matrix performed but the results were the same.

I don't know about you, for me 38 audiophiles getting together and actually agreeing on testing of their equipment is very convincing. The worst decent system VS the "best" system removes all doubt what the capabilities of modern equipment can do and the human ear's ability to detect it. Throw in all the testing AES has done, the research the medical community has performed for decades and there is plenty of information to inform you what you actually require.

Level matching equipment is a pain in the butt, it is not easy to perform accurate testing but if you want to know the truth...that is how to do it. If you prefer to believe you can hear the differences in something that is extraordinarily accurate then pump it through speakers that have many times more distortion and uneven frequency response--that is then wrecked by room acoustics, feel free. Maybe you are the freak of nature that medical science would love to give a hearing test--because that person has not been discovered.

Then again, many people will claim that sound quality is the reason they blow $10K on pretty blocks of aluminum when they don't need that for sound quality reasons. Have no idea why they just don't say they like big blocks of aluminum, the heft, the switching and the craftsmenship. Personally, I have always preferred to hide sound equipment, not to make it obvious with a giant audio pile. My HT system for the most part is hidden with only two speakers being immediately obvious. It is a great system to flush out audiophiles, many of them can't stand hearing something without knowing the equipment. My speakers use custom built magnetic grills with grill cloth to match the furniture or walls so they have no idea what the design of the speakers are let alone what brand. Can't see the wires either, all that stuff is hidden. My days of having amplifiers, sources and cables front and center are long gone. My TV takes up enough space, the subwoofers gobble up a lot of space (although they look like furniture) I have no want to display a bunch of metal boxes with flashing lights which mess up the darkness when watching a movie. I want great sound that vanishes when watching a movie, I get the sound quality high enough that I don't think about it anymore. I'm almost there, if I concentrate on the sound and not the movie--there are a few issues but I have those solutions which will require more custom built enclosures and grills. All part of the hobby, once my new center is done and I can get three subs to play nice, that part is done. Since it is a hobby, the Atmos elevation front stage should prove entertaining to custom build angled speakers painted/grilled to match the walls and adjust to work properly.

The broad view is good sound, experience, testing and R&D indicates the same thing that most product use portrays. Put the budget where it counts, don't waste time/money/effort/space on things that don't matter and always remember, with electronic devices the target is always moving so define what you need to set the bar to what works for your needs. Once you know what you need, then decide the features, build quality, looks and space you are willing to give up in your quest. If you want to get the best sound, then you'll fall down the rabbit hole of room acoustics, measurement and getting the speaker designs that fit the downsides of your room. If you ever feel that your system is the "best", run an REW sweep and prepare to embrace failure. If you are the type that don't enjoy bad news, join the club that measurements don't matter, your ears are golden and any audio problem can be solved if you throw enough money at it. Sure, the second choice is expensive but it saves a ton of time! I'd much rather throw in a new box than move heavy speakers around--or swap a cable instead of solving sub bass peaks and suck outs.

Enjoy the read on the testing in Spain, the testing done by Tomshardware is tedious to read with many, many charts and graphs but you asked! Other sources are the Audio Engineering Society as they have plenty of research as you would expect. As you get deeper into any hobby be it cars, power tools or boats--eventually you'll need to do more research to increase your enjoyment of the hobby. As with cars or power tools, purchasing a race car does not make you a race car driver or owning a $25,000 set of tools does not make you a furniture builder. The same holds true with audio equipment, once you have what you need then the hard part arrives--proper setup, calibration and testing--retesting, change the setup, change the room and so on will keep you entertained long enough to start over again when your needs change.

This is a hobby after all, get off the squirrel cage and enjoy it.
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post #32 of 58 Old 08-09-2017, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by troydunnagan View Post
I have a Marantz SR7009
I am looking to increase the sound quality of my Sonos driven music.
Might it be that both the Sonos and the Marantz have Toslink
If this is the case, get yourself a Toslink cable and use the Marantz
This will give you a taste of what a external DAC can do to improve on the Sonos.
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post #33 of 58 Old 08-09-2017, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by 18Hurts View Post
http://matrixhifi.com/ENG_contenedor_ppec.htm

As I posted previously, the above was a double blind test. Here are the results

8 persons participated on this test
14 chose the "A" system as the best sounding one
10 chose the "B" system as the best sounding one
14 were not able to hear differences or didn't choose any as the best

Since it is obvious you did not read the link, System A was the Behringer A500/Sony CD player with System B being the Classe' amp with Wadia CD transport/20 bit DAC.

[...]
I read it already the first time. But as I understand it, that test compares two completely different systems (amps, DC-player, ...). I.e. it's not the DACs that are being swapped, which was what I requested. Do you know of any such test, that uses a high quality system and just swaps out the DAC, and includes a large number of people claiming they cannot hear any difference? If so, I'd be interested to see that.

Also, is your conclusion from the test you linked to that there is not even any audio quality difference between a High end system vs a Basic system (because as I understand it, that was what the test claimed to prove, since it said "How can it be possible that a basic system with such a price difference against the "reference" one, poorly placed, using the cheapest signal cables found, couldn't be distinguished from the more expensive one?")? So that your statement regarding that DACs sound the same extends to all audio equipment in general too? Or am I misinterpreting you here...?
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post #34 of 58 Old 08-09-2017, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Fjodor2000 View Post
Do you know of any such test, that uses a high quality system and just swaps out the DAC,
What constitutes high quality system and why does it have to be to compare DACs?

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High end system vs a Basic system (because as I understand it, that was what the test claimed to prove, since it said "How can it be possible that a basic system with such a price difference against the "reference" one, poorly placed, using the cheapest signal cables found, couldn't be distinguished from the more expensive one?")?
What separates high end system from basic system?
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post #35 of 58 Old 08-09-2017, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
Not really that hard to match volume, actually
How closely did you match and what did you use to do it?
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post #36 of 58 Old 08-09-2017, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Fjodor2000 View Post
So that your statement regarding that DACs sound the same extends to all audio equipment in general too? Or am I misinterpreting you here...?
It does answer your question. If the two DACs had a difference, they would of noted the difference between the two systems. If DACs actually mattered, the difference would of showed up on the test results. The same would also apply to the amps or cables. The "worst" amp with the cheesy cables and lowest end CD transport/DAC VS the ultra high end. If the DAC mattered, it would of shifted the vote to the system with the high end DAC. The same results were with the high end amp with the high end cables.

The standard claim with audiophiles is Uber product X could not be known because of the "low end" components, low end speakers, amps, cable elevators or whatever did not allow it to "resolve" itself. Face it, the DAC heads would of complained about the not good enough amp, not good enough cables or whatever so the test was null and void. Soooo, they used the best equiipment available from their audiophile group to go against the least expensive but still well built amplifier and CD player.

A great test to see if amplifier and DAC quality exceeds our ability to hear the difference. Granted, cables and that garbage was entertained by using the cheapest cables possible while the "good" system used the most expensive ones. If a cheap cable, cheap CD/DAC with cheap amp system can't be distinguished from a reference system with ultra expensive amplifiers, CD transport with expensive DACs with uber cables etc... why would you think if it was just the Wadia VS Sony would change the result? I'd believe the Sony would not suffer when backed up with a Classe' amp, thick cables and audiophile furniture.

There is no reason to then test the amps/DACs or cables against each other. You would only do that IF the results showed the expensive system to win the DBT. If it did, then you would want to know if the cables, amps, CD transports/DACs were the factor--maybe the furniture has the edge. I'd expect them to then test just the amps, just the DACs and just the cables to isolate the variable on why the $14K+ system won. However, it did not win...it tied although the inexpensive system did gather more votes.

The great part of the test is they took all the components that people fight about on forums--set up one system to fail badly if you believe in DACs, amps and cables...then put it against the "best" if you believe in ultra expensive parts are required to get sound quality in sources.

If your sources distortion etc. all put together produce something like 0.1% distortion and the reference system does 0.001% distortion--can a human hear the difference (without cheating and looking at actual research on that subject) Then connect that very accurate 0.1% distortion sources to a pair of outstanding speakers that produce at least 1% distortion and more than that in the bass region--can the human ear distinguish the masking effect from the drastically higher distortion from the speakers to notice the ultra low distortion of the sources? The crew at the Audio Engineering Society and Dr. Floyd Toole knew the answer but the audiophile club in Spain wanted to check themselves. I applaud them for taking the time, effort and chaos required to get 38 audiophiles to agree on anything let alone testing it.

For the record, I'm not an audiophile--more of an audio hobbyist. I think I had to give up my audiophile card back in 1991 when my blind testing proved my ears were not golden. That's OK, my three other buddies had to give up their cards also...
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post #37 of 58 Old 08-09-2017, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by LFEer View Post
The most likely explanation for the difference you've observed is level unmatched comparison.
Not to mention that it wasn't a blind comparison with no statistical significance.
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post #38 of 58 Old 08-09-2017, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
You can be skeptical, I was just offering real life experience with specific equipment impressions to the OP as he requested instead of a having a multi page philosophical debate.

....
Well, it was your experience for sure. And, depending on the OPs interest in a real difference or not, your anecdote didn't answer his curiosity.
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post #39 of 58 Old 08-09-2017, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Fjodor2000 View Post
What I wrote previously should be sufficient: "professionally performed ABX tests involving a large number of people? [...], do you have any links to those tests?"
Well, that will be difficult. Professionals are not really interesting conducting DBT on audio components.
I hope you ask for evidence from all those who claim differences. If not, I smell hypocrisy.
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post #40 of 58 Old 08-09-2017, 05:09 PM
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Not really that hard to match volume, actually
And, how did you do it to what accuracy? Of course it was also DBT. But wait, it wasn't a professional comparison per Fjodor2000 requests.
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post #41 of 58 Old 08-09-2017, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by LFEer View Post
What constitutes high quality system and why does it have to be to compare DACs?


What separates high end system from basic system?
In the eye of the beholder.
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post #42 of 58 Old 08-10-2017, 02:07 AM
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Originally Posted by LFEer View Post
What constitutes high quality system and why does it have to be to compare DACs?

What separates high end system from basic system?
If a too low quality audio system is used, you'll likely not be able to hear much difference by just swapping out the DAC. It's like using a $100 speaker to compare different amplifiers in the $10.000 range.

I don't think there is any exact definition of what constitutes a high end system, but it's a concept and terminology fairly commonly used in within hifi, which I'm sure you are aware of.

Personally, I'd say a $10.000 system should be sufficient to use for comparing DACs (assuming the money has been spent wisely, i.e. not $9000 on cables and the rest on HW ). A $500 system likely is not however.
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post #43 of 58 Old 08-10-2017, 06:45 AM
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Originally Posted by 18Hurts View Post
It does answer your question. If the two DACs had a difference, they would of noted the difference between the two systems. If DACs actually mattered, the difference would of showed up on the test results. The same would also apply to the amps or cables. The "worst" amp with the cheesy cables and lowest end CD transport/DAC VS the ultra high end. If the DAC mattered, it would of shifted the vote to the system with the high end DAC. The same results were with the high end amp with the high end cables.

The standard claim with audiophiles is Uber product X could not be known because of the "low end" components, low end speakers, amps, cable elevators or whatever did not allow it to "resolve" itself. Face it, the DAC heads would of complained about the not good enough amp, not good enough cables or whatever so the test was null and void. Soooo, they used the best equiipment available from their audiophile group to go against the least expensive but still well built amplifier and CD player.
[...]
So is your conclusion from the test that there is no humanly noticeable audio quality differences between low end vs high end audio equipment in general (i.e. that does not only apply to DACs)? I.e. no audio quality difference between a $100 speaker and a $10.000 speaker, no difference between a $100 amplifier and a $10.000 amplifier, etc...?
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post #44 of 58 Old 08-10-2017, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Fjodor2000 View Post
If a too low quality audio system is used, you'll likely not be able to hear much difference by just swapping out the DAC. It's like using a $100 speaker to compare different amplifiers in the $10.000 range.
Which experiment revealed such phenomena?

Quote:
I don't think there is any exact definition of what constitutes a high end system, but it's a concept and terminology fairly commonly used in within hifi, which I'm sure you are aware of.
What you are saying is, it's about high fidelity. In that case, what makes audio system high fidelity?

Quote:
Personally, I'd say a $10.000 system should be sufficient to use for comparing DACs (assuming the money has been spent wisely, i.e. not $9000 on cables and the rest on HW ). A $500 system likely is not however.
Which experiment revealed such phenomena?
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post #45 of 58 Old 08-10-2017, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Fjodor2000 View Post
So is your conclusion from the test that there is no humanly noticeable audio quality differences between low end vs high end audio equipment in general (i.e. that does not only apply to DACs)? I.e. no audio quality difference between a $100 speaker and a $10.000 speaker, no difference between a $100 amplifier and a $10.000 amplifier, etc...?
It's the source, not the speakers that were tested. The question is at what level was equipment exceeding people's ability to hear a difference. $199 Behringer studio amp, Sony CD player and basic cables exceed that ability. Speakers were not tested although ATC makes some amazing monitors--they cost 4 figures. You should of noted the same speakers and speaker cables were used with the different systems.

A $200 studio amp could not be picked out against a many thousands Classe' amp in sound quality. Same holds true with DACs and cables.

I was assuming you wanted to know the answer, now that you attempt to divert what the test was testing and going even more extreme with $100 VS $10,000...it is obvious you did not ask the question to learn something, you just want to delve into the world of the mystical and magical. That is fine, however I don't waste my time in that arena of audio--learned the hard way decades ago that although the ultra expensive tested better on a test bench (it does) my hearing could not detect the difference between the top of the line Yamaha VS the bottom of the line Sony. For one, I was happy that technology exceeded my and my buddies ability to hear a difference so I put more funds into speakers and less into CD players and amplifiers if I was concerned about sound quality. Still purchased rather pricey gear but not for sound quality, I concentrated on features, reliability, component part durability, flexibility, power output, low impedance drive capability and so on. My Carver (one of three amps) finally died after 25 years of use and I moved on.

These days, I still do the same thing and thanks to the internet, others have tested equipment and came up with their conclusions. Nothing new under the sun so I still put my money into speakers, subwoofers, high current capable amplifiers, measuring equipment and look up and learn more about audio when running into specific problems.

If you purchased a very expensive DAC (or whatever) without reading about what it does and if it actually matters, I can't help you. Enjoy your component for all the other reasons you purchased your gear. There are many factors when purchasing audio equipment so be happy that those other factors were met. My Crown XTi amp was purchased for the DSP, adjustable limiters, 2 ohm drive capabiity, adjustable fan cooling and qulity of contruction--and I think the looks are nice with the curvy cast aluminum front panel and digital display. Yes, I like the looks of the thing and it has more power than I will generally need. Notice I did not mention sound quality? I know what specs I need the amps to be to sound neutral and that amp meets/exceeds those specifications. All three of my amplifiers do the same so what amp I use depends on my requirements for power output, thermal capacity (outside BBQs in the heat of the summer) or features of the amplifier.

If I could not tell the difference between a top of the line DAC VS a low end DAC 25 years ago, why would I waste time worrying about it now since they just keep getting better and cheaper over time? My hearing is not as accurate as it was 25 years ago and processing power and quality has jumped considerably. The original point of the test was to compare speaker wire but it then went to amps and CD players since it was such a pain to get the ABX testing done accurately.

If you want to know more, there is always the option to test it yourself. Pain in the butt to do correctly, burns a weekend but such is the time sucking hobby aspect of it all. It is much easier to go to the AES website and read their tests, check some Dr. Floyd Toole videos or even AES videos to gather information. Back in the day I didn't have internet access so had to do it myself. Oddly enough, my results and my friends results matched exactly and those results match the results in Spain.

So now I just blow time screwing around with home theater, tweaking the settings on my 2.2 channel in the garage and building furniture that contains subwoofers inside (don't tell my wife!)

If you choose to believe that the more money you spend on DACs, amps, wire, power cords and so on--have fun with that. If you expect to come to a forum that has Science in the name and gain a following or get justification--good luck with that!

I just want to have good sound and to improve my sound quality in my living room. Need to cure the big problems first with speaker issues, placement issues, room modes, acoustic reflections and so on. Once that gets cured, then I'll worry about sources or cables. Fix the big problems first, then worry about the small stuff or audio jewelry after the big problems are cured.

Good luck in your quest.
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post #46 of 58 Old 08-10-2017, 01:09 PM
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Fjodor:

You are having your chain pulled by LFEer. He has nothing better to do than harass hobbyists here with his circular, never-ending argumentative questions. He does it all the time. You should know that he has no experience comparing components in his home. He does not even own an audio system. So I suggest you stop wasting your time.

Music room: McIntosh MA6500 integrated amplifier, Cary SLI-80 tube integrated amplifier, Quad 99 preamp, Quad 909 power amp, Acoustic Research AR9 loudspeakers, Yamaha CD-N500 CD player, Teac UD-503 DSD DAC, Phase Linear 8000II linear-tracking turntable.
Theater room: Panasonic TC-P65S60 plasma television; Yamaha Aventage RX-A2020 (preamp section); Adcom GFA-5503 and GFA-5400 amplifiers; Polk LSi25, LSiC, and LSiF/X loudspeaker system; Velodyne FSR-18 servo-subwoofer.
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post #47 of 58 Old 08-11-2017, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Alex F. View Post
Fjodor:

You are having your chain pulled by LFEer. He has nothing better to do than harass hobbyists here with his circular, never-ending argumentative questions. He does it all the time. You should know that he has no experience comparing components in his home. He does not even own an audio system. So I suggest you stop wasting your time.
Thanks for the info. Yes, it looks like you are right. So I'll take your advise and end the discussion with him & 18Hurts.
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post #48 of 58 Old 08-11-2017, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Fjodor2000 View Post
Thanks for the info. Yes, it looks like you are right. So I'll take your advise and end the discussion with him & 18Hurts.
There hasn't been any objective comparison that revealed the DAC's audible traits or not because the audio system used was expensive or inexpensive. But I treated your assertions with the benefit of the doubt and asked about it in case you know something I didn't. If you still do, please share, for the benefit of the rest of the forum.
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post #49 of 58 Old 08-11-2017, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Alex F. View Post
Fjodor:

You are having your chain pulled by LFEer. He has nothing better to do than harass hobbyists here with his circular, never-ending argumentative questions. He does it all the time. You should know that he has no experience comparing components in his home. He does not even own an audio system. So I suggest you stop wasting your time.
And your experience is what, exactly? And, who validated your method to reveal facts, not myths?
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Well my experience is as extensive as one can possibly acquire. As are my accreditations and test equipment.

DAC's, amps, preamp and speakers, don't all sound the same, and we don't have an objective metric to conclusively prove which one will sound better than another, within a particular grouping or classification.

Meaning that subjective evaluations are still king!

One would hope that the scientific method is adhered to during such evaluations, but such is not common in ANY audio forum...

When they're not, their conclusions are merely conjecture.

Conjecture is pointless to debate, so perhaps it's time to move on!

Last edited by Jady Jenkins; 09-04-2017 at 11:31 AM.
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post #51 of 58 Old 08-23-2017, 12:45 PM
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...
DAC's, amps, preamp and speakers, don't all sound the same, a...
Then, it seems that sounding different is also just a conjecture.
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post #52 of 58 Old 08-23-2017, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Jady Jenkins View Post
Well my experience is as extensive as one can possible acquire. As are my accreditations and test equipment.
So, we should just take your word as an internet/forum participant as an "authority".



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post #53 of 58 Old 08-23-2017, 10:48 PM
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So, we should just take your word as an internet/forum participant as an "authority".
I'd reference the signature of their post to double check their credentials.
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post #54 of 58 Old 08-24-2017, 02:51 PM
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So, we should just take your word as an internet/forum participant as an "authority".
I guess Ohm's law and Kirchoff's Law is up for grabs next?
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post #55 of 58 Old 08-25-2017, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jady Jenkins View Post
Well my experience is as extensive as one can possible acquire. As are my accreditations and test equipment.

DAC's, amps, preamp and speakers, don't all sound the same, and we don't have an objective metric to conclusive prove which one will sound better than another, within a particular grouping or classification.

Meaning that subjective evaluations are still king!

One would hope that the scientific method is adhered to during such evaluations, but such is not common in ANY audio forum...
Hmmmm, I find it odd that the most extensively experienced with the highest accredications and test equipment would have an anti-physics rant in their postings. Maybe you could lower yourself to the less educated and experienced in sound and join this thread:

Speaker Shootout - two of the most accurate and well reviewed speakers ever made

I'm sure Floyd would welcome discussion with his peers, must be annoying explaining test methodology, human biases and audio equipment specifications. I'm sure it will be much more enjoyable for you as you discuss reality with Dr. Toole Us knuckle dragging idiot that post technical testing papers, double-blind testing of audio equipment and medical research of how human hearing and perception works are just wasting your time.

I'm sure Harmon could really use a person like you for their testing. Be a nice guy and inform the audiologist of your hearing ability before stepping into the sound booth, always nice to inform medical people of any off the bell curve abilities up front.

See ya on the speaker shootout thread.
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post #56 of 58 Old 09-03-2017, 07:40 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesJ View Post
Then, it seems that sounding different is also just a conjecture.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
So, we should just take your word as an internet/forum participant as an "authority".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Worf View Post
I'd reference the signature of their post to double check their credentials.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesJ View Post
I guess Ohm's law and Kirchoff's Law is up for grabs next?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 18Hurts View Post
Hmmmm, I find it odd that the most extensively experienced with the highest accreditations and test equipment would have an anti-physics rant in their postings. Maybe you could lower yourself to the less educated and experienced in sound and join this thread:

Speaker Shootout - two of the most accurate and well reviewed speakers ever made

I'm sure Floyd would welcome discussion with his peers, must be annoying explaining test methodology, human biases and audio equipment specifications. I'm sure it will be much more enjoyable for you as you discuss reality with Dr. Toole Us knuckle dragging idiot that post technical testing papers, double-blind testing of audio equipment and medical research of how human hearing and perception works are just wasting your time.

I'm sure Harmon could really use a person like you for their testing. Be a nice guy and inform the audiologist of your hearing ability before stepping into the sound booth, always nice to inform medical people of any off the bell curve abilities up front.

See ya on the speaker shootout thread.
Conjecture across the board gents:

Please point me to even one metric that clearly and with repeatability, can objective quantify one product as sounding superior to another, to all audiences... There simply isn't one. That's why subjective evaluation is still king!

As to physics, it's new and very incomplete, and Gravity is the great mystery... In fact gravity it is most probably a misnomer, and in truth is listed as a concept in all curriculums of study, on the subject matter.

In the documentary of sorts: Cosmos: A Spacetime Odyssey; Dr. Neil deGresse Tyson, the worlds current preeminent figure in physic; outright states that gravity is a mystery and that we really don't know what it is... As such, the work towards solving this mystery continues.

https://ncse.com/library-resource/gr...ts-only-theory

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...sses-test.html

https://www.sciencealert.com/a-contr...its-first-test

https://qz.com/876531/a-theory-that-...ts-first-test/

http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog...-illusion.html

These very same statements can be made about 'What is absolute sound quality?'... No one currently knows!

I would argue, winningly, I might add that this very forum evidences such. I would also argue winningly, that no objective metric exists, as i have repeated asked for someone, anyone to provide it, but no one in over 12-months of me asking, has been able to deliver such.

I am still waiting...

An applicable quote:

"just an FYI: There are 2 kinds of people in the world — those who divide everybody into 2 kinds of people & those who don’t.
— Neil deGrasse Tyson (@neiltyson) May 23, 2011"

Last edited by Jady Jenkins; 09-04-2017 at 11:08 AM.
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post #57 of 58 Old 09-04-2017, 05:32 AM
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Not sure I'd be using deGrasse Tyson as a reliable source. I've lived on the water my whole life and according to him I should be typing this under water right now, but actually it hasn't changed an inch since I was netting crabs off the pilings when I was eight.

Anyway, for anyone interested in the technicals and business of DACs, I've read an interesting book, although obviously biased, called Schiit Happened . It might give a clearer picture into the technicals of why a DAC should or should not sound different. Regardless of your position, it's interesting in its own right just from the story of the trials and tribulations of a small business.
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post #58 of 58 Old 09-04-2017, 04:35 PM
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well the 'Team' seems to have driven off the OP, who has not posted or logged onto AVS since July
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