LFE, subwoofers and interconnects explained - Page 26 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #751 of 777 Old 11-27-2010, 06:45 PM
Member
 
victor tubeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: SYDNEY AUSTRALIA
Posts: 141
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hi

I have used analog out multi chan since using my 05 player.All speakers small 80hz x over.

Settings for 1.32 firmware on sub chan +0.5 in player and -14.5 in pre/pro(only used for sub chan) for ref 75db using only 2 subs.

Player failed in march 2010 ,drive replaced and new 1.65 firmware installed by repair tech august 2010.

Reset and tested system 2 wks later all other chans fine,
same levels with old settings in player.

Tried to set sub chan,could not set ref with internal tones,or JPK bluray test disc,dvd pal or ntsc jpk disc.(which had work 1.32 )

Raised sub chan to my systems max +6 on player , + 8 on pre/pro (+28 db above 1.32 level) and cannot even get a db reading 1 inch from sub (below 40db) with db meter . Check redirected bass from all chans no reading ie below 80hz bass is now not redirected (it was with 1.32).

I did watch some movies nothing below 80hz or LFE either to subs.

I did ring tech,and was refered to top pioneer tech in aust who deals with Japan and trains their etc.They have been told only ,design change.

Tried new 1.69 firmware too low to measure and set same as 1.65 did tests and sent figures etc to top pioneer tech to relay to japan,but he said they will not change this BM problem unless USA customers complain (aust is 1% of their market).

The sub chan with all speakers small is now 60db below other chans,and cannot be set much less listen to.

Due to this I am getting a refund from pioneer as I need a player meeting its specs with some bass management to operate in my system.

For those using analog out with an AVR ,to test you need to use A, players internal test tone,or test disc in player and check if levels are equal.(Do not use AVR test tones,only applicable to Digital from player).Use a db meter (which many seem not to have.) or calibrated mic etc.

I would think even using an AVR multi chan analog in ,the sub chan will also not be able to set ref 75db.Anyone ?

Pioneer Japan tested player only with their AVR,s and said sub chan
was ok,but down in level.


My question is,on analog outs there must be some rules from dolby and DTS so that the product is usable ? (I now must buy another brand of player because of this) I rely on the player to decode true HD and DTS ma correctly with regard to bass redirection for all small speaker settings and LFE ?

Regards Victor.
victor tubeman is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #752 of 777 Old 11-27-2010, 07:34 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Roger Dressler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Oregon
Posts: 8,267
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 167 Post(s)
Liked: 174
If the internal test noise remains silent, it could be a poor connection in the player's subwoofer signal path. Might be worth checking the innards to see if a connector or joint has come loose.
Roger Dressler is offline  
post #753 of 777 Old 11-27-2010, 08:12 PM
Member
 
victor tubeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: SYDNEY AUSTRALIA
Posts: 141
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

If the internal test noise remains silent, it could be a poor connection in the player's subwoofer signal path. Might be worth checking the innards to see if a connector or joint has come loose.

Hi Roger,

Player has been returned twice,they said sub output is ok.I thought maybe it was damaged.One reading I got was 44db 1 inch from sub when system was at my max level +28db over my 1.32 setting(I have fans in amps so may have read them.I checked with repair tech said if board was damaged none of the outputs would work.

Pioneer techs in japan tested new firmware only with their AVR range and said it was ok ?(This is what the Australian top tech has said,may or may not be true)

I am guessing they have made a mistake from 1.65 firmware as there is no bass redirection from any speakers set to small and my 80hz crossover.(like with the original firmware) maybe they have run out of DSP processor power with some new features in 1.65 ? I did give all my db readings ? to the tech in australia but as I am the only one to complain they said its not meant for systems like mine.Ie expensive,but it should not matter wether you use 1k amps or 100k amps sub chan should work and be able to set equal to other channels.

Lucky these guys in japan are not working for NASA.

Regards Victor.
victor tubeman is offline  
post #754 of 777 Old 11-28-2010, 05:08 AM
AVS Special Member
 
EWL5's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 3,160
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by victor tubeman View Post

Hi Roger,

Player has been returned twice,they said sub output is ok.I thought maybe it was damaged.One reading I got was 44db 1 inch from sub when system was at my max level +28db over my 1.32 setting(I have fans in amps so may have read them.I checked with repair tech said if board was damaged none of the outputs would work.

Pioneer techs in japan tested new firmware only with their AVR range and said it was ok ?(This is what the Australian top tech has said,may or may not be true)

I am guessing they have made a mistake from 1.65 firmware as there is no bass redirection from any speakers set to small and my 80hz crossover.(like with the original firmware) maybe they have run out of DSP processor power with some new features in 1.65 ? I did give all my db readings ? to the tech in australia but as I am the only one to complain they said its not meant for systems like mine.Ie expensive,but it should not matter wether you use 1k amps or 100k amps sub chan should work and be able to set equal to other channels.

Lucky these guys in japan are not working for NASA.

Regards Victor.

The responsibility of the +15dB boost (+10 if no bass management) to LFE is on the downstream equipment and not the BD/DVD player when using the MCH analog outputs. What receiver/prepro do you own and does it have the capability of boosting your analog LFE input by +15dB?

Pioneer broke my heart.
Denon broke my wallet.
Oppo broke my thinking.
EWL5 is offline  
post #755 of 777 Old 11-28-2010, 09:07 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Roger Dressler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Oregon
Posts: 8,267
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 167 Post(s)
Liked: 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by victor tubeman View Post

I am guessing they have made a mistake from 1.65 firmware as there is no bass redirection from any speakers set to small and my 80hz crossover.

Easy enough to prove this simply by rolling back to the original firmware. Can you get hold of it?
Roger Dressler is offline  
post #756 of 777 Old 11-28-2010, 09:55 AM
AVS Special Member
 
kemitchell's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,354
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Easy enough to prove this simply by rolling back to the original firmware. Can you get hold of it?

You cannot easlily rollback the firmware on an 05/51.

But if anyone's interested, I have every FW release since 1.02.

~kyle
kemitchell is offline  
post #757 of 777 Old 11-28-2010, 07:40 PM
Member
 
victor tubeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: SYDNEY AUSTRALIA
Posts: 141
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by EWL5 View Post

The responsibility of the +15dB boost (+10 if no bass management) to LFE is on the downstream equipment and not the BD/DVD player when using the MCH analog outputs. What receiver/prepro do you own and does it have the capability of boosting your analog LFE input by +15dB?

Hi,
settings for .1 chan was -14.5db for ref 75db with 1.32,

with 1.65 went to +8db on proceed AVP and cannot get 44db 1 inch from sub ,raised .1 chan by 28db over 1.32 firmware ?

When I returned player 1st time levels were as above low like 1.65 ,but when I recheck every setting they now had 1.32 again, but levels were as 1.65 firmware .So they did try that too Roger.

2nd time returned he loaded 1.65 firmware and was the same low level ,unable to calibrate .1 chan.

Then last week I loaded 1.69a firmware just incase they did have a fix but unfortunately still the same low level on the .1 chan.

Thankyou, for all the help and advice.
Regards Victor.
victor tubeman is offline  
post #758 of 777 Old 12-19-2010, 11:02 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Servicetech571's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 4,691
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
I have an HTPC and need to know the correct settings for ffdshow. I am using analog outs on a 4 channel system, 2 large front speakers and 2 medium rear speakers. I want LFE to come from the front speakers. Is it better to get the 10db boost in the "mixer" by bumping it to 300% or add 10db in the "volume" portion?
Servicetech571 is offline  
post #759 of 777 Old 12-29-2010, 08:00 AM
Member
 
raylfreeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 33
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I have a Samsung BD-C6500 connected to a Yamaha HTR-5830 via 6 analog cables. Should I also have an optical or digital coaxial connected?

Thanks for the assistance!
raylfreeman is offline  
post #760 of 777 Old 12-29-2010, 10:09 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Philnick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Cambridge, MA
Posts: 1,011
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by raylfreeman View Post

I have a Samsung BD-C6500 connected to a Yamaha HTR-5830 via 6 analog cables. Should I also have an optical or digital coaxial connected?

Thanks for the assistance!

As with everything else in this world, it depends.

If you're only going to watch disks with multichannel soundtracks (Blu-ray or DVD), using just the 6 analog cables for 5.1 surround will be fine.

Connecting an optical or coax cable would be useful to show a friend how much better lossless is than a DVD's sound - but you could also do the same demo through the analog connection by using the remote's ability to toggle soundtracks with a disk that has DVD-style Dolby or DTS as well a lossless soundtrack.

With DVDs, it's a different story. Some older DVDs use just the front two channels - I even have one that uses just the front center channel.

With standard CDs, only the front two channels will be active.

You can hook up a second connection to use with disks that don't animate the other channels so that you can use the amp's built-in effects or pair the surround speakers with the front speakers.

You can make that second connection either digitally via optical or coax, or stay in analog mode by using a pair of Y-adapters that each have one RCA jack feeding a pair of RCA plugs (on wires a few inches long) to connect the multichannel analog front left and right outputs into the "DVD" (or "CD") jack as well as the front left and front right jacks. This may require boosting the player's output of those channels - or trimming all the others - by a small amount (about 1 db) to compensate for the fact that those outputs are now driving two input jacks.

(Some disk players have another analog alternative, in the form of a separate stereo output - which may or may not be as good as the multichannel front pair.)

Think of the doubling approach as turning the system into a big pair of headphones - or a big car stereo.

In my post a few further down this page, I discuss how, with an old program that was only recorded in stereo it may sound better to use the stereo track on a disk than to use the surround track on the disk, if the producers of the disk didn't do a good job of re-channeling it. (That's the case with the 1980 Paul Simon Philadelphia concert.)

PS In the unusual case of encoding the sound only into the front center channel - which I've only encountered on one DVD and on one Blu-ray - there's not a lot you can do. Just enjoy it the way it was intended.

Philnick is offline  
post #761 of 777 Old 12-29-2010, 11:13 AM
AVS Special Member
 
BIslander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 8,476
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 32 Post(s)
Liked: 123
I would recommend a second digital connection for use with DVDs and CDs. Digital audio processing in your receiver may help with those sources. But, a second connection is not necessary and it would merely be an alternate source to the analog inputs.
BIslander is offline  
post #762 of 777 Old 06-22-2011, 01:15 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Raymond Leggs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,612
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Some AVR's have no adjustible X-over

One shall stand... One Shall Fall... - Optimus Prime
Raymond Leggs is offline  
post #763 of 777 Old 06-25-2011, 04:30 AM
AVS Special Member
 
EWL5's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 3,160
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond Leggs View Post

Some AVR's have no adjustible X-over

In that case, you probably want a more expensive source player that has good bass management over analog audio.

Pioneer broke my heart.
Denon broke my wallet.
Oppo broke my thinking.
EWL5 is offline  
post #764 of 777 Old 08-13-2011, 07:30 AM
Senior Member
 
AYColumbia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Columbia, MO
Posts: 349
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Any chance the first post can be updated to use this green color instead as the current one is really hard to read?

AYColumbia is offline  
post #765 of 777 Old 08-13-2011, 07:52 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Philnick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Cambridge, MA
Posts: 1,011
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 28
Just encountered my first Blu-ray that outputs sound only on the front center channel: The Adventures of Robin Hood, starring Errol Flynn and Olivia deHavilland, and a cast of villians including Basil Rathbone, with Claude Rains (of Casablanca) playing the usurping evil brother. (I was shocked, shocked, to see him in such a role.)

Since the image was in 4:3 "Academy" format (which was used by TV until the past few years), having the sound come from the center channel didn't bother me once I got used to it.

Interestingly, the disk includes an hour-long documentary about the rise and fall of the Technicolor multistrip process (three separate rolls of black and white film - one for each color - ran through the camera, which, like today's IMAX cameras, was rented - not sold - to the studios), documenting the studios' - and stars' - resistance to moving from black and white to color, with lots of clips from old films, and making a pitch for Technicolor's superiority over the single-strip multilayer color film from Kodak that supplanted it.

Philnick is offline  
post #766 of 777 Old 08-13-2011, 07:59 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Philnick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Cambridge, MA
Posts: 1,011
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 28
I've been finding, with stereo sources, that duplicating the front stereo signals out the surrounds is best for playing older sources through my 5.1 speaker system.

In fact, the DVD of the 1980 Paul Simon concert at Philadelpha's Tower Hall, with his very jazz-oriented One-Trick Pony band, sounds far better doubling the stereo soundtrack out the surrounds than listening to its DTS 5.1 track, which sounds hollow by comparison.

Re-channelling works no better for making surround out of stereo than it did for making stereo out of mono.

Unless a multichannel board recording was preserved - not very likely for anything shot on video before HD - use the stereo track, which is often uncompressed PCM - and thus superior sonically to the "lossy compressed" Dolby or DTS tracks.

Philnick is offline  
post #767 of 777 Old 12-31-2012, 08:20 AM
Member
 
3rdHerd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 151
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
hello, I did not see any HK receivers in the list, and rather than search the whole thread I will quote HK here:
Quote:
Harman Kardon’s DPR 2005, DPR 1005 and AVR 630 include, in addition to their Quadruple Crossover System, a Multichannel
Digital Bass Manager (see Figure 2). Despite the increasing popularity of SACD and DVD-Audio players, which output six to eight
separate full-range analog signals, there are virtually no A/V receivers other than Harman Kardon’s DPR 2005, DPR 1005 and
AVR 630 that provide a bass manager when in the 6- or 8-Channel-Direct mode. This means that systems using bookshelf or
satellite speakers will receive a full-range signal from DVD-Audio or SACD sources that includes low frequencies. This could be
damaging to the speakers when they’re played at higher levels. Some competitive receivers claim to include a multichannel bass
manager but they often don’t have any bass redirection, only a high-pass filter. This means that the low-frequency portion of the
original source material is lost, resulting in less-than-optimal playback performance.
The DPR 2005, DPR 1005 and AVR 630 have a unique design that utilizes eight channels of analog-to-digital converters which,
in turn, digitize the incoming source signal from the SACD or DVD-Audio optical player. By digitizing this signal, the Bass Manager
within the DSP processor can apply the assigned filters and proper bass redirection, including all of the options available from the
Quadruple Crossover System. This allows listeners to have all of the same Quad Crossover settings, including bass redirection, when
playing back SACD or DVD-Audio players through the 6- or 8-Channel-Direct inputs as they have when playing any conventional
analog or digital source.

The 2600, and 3600 and any other models listed with "quad crossover" also have this performance

from the BM circuit diagram for the newer quad processing shows 4 a/d converters for crossover of l/r, center/lfe, lr/rr, and zone2. The bass information from zone 2 is added to the rear channel prior to getting to the programmable logic array, which outputs a summed SW signal to the Crystal proccessor for final output over the "SUB" jack, and zone2 has separate analog stereo only.

source: http://www.3dsi.co.za/HarmanKardon/AdvancedFeatures/WhitePapers/TECH%20SHEET%20TRIPLE%20AND%20QUAD%20CROSSOVER.pdf
3rdHerd is offline  
post #768 of 777 Old 03-22-2013, 05:31 PM
Advanced Member
 
jdlynch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Floyds Knobs, Indiana
Posts: 640
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 23
I'm so glad I found this thread as I am a little confused on how to set-up my Lexicon MC-12 to compensate for the analog SW -10db.

I am using an Oppo BDP-103 as a player and decoder. I am using its analog outputs into the Lexicon's 5.1 analog input. I have the Lexicon crossing over all speakers at 80hz to the sub. I have LFE turned off, and, subs set to mono.

I know the SW signal is reduced by 10 db in the Oppo, so, I need to compensate for that by boosting the SW in the Lexicon by 10 db. What I have done is adjust the Logic7 mode setting by boosting the sub by 10db.

Is this the correct way to compensate for the -10db analog SW out? Isn't it also adding 10db to the bass that was re-directed from the main channels?

I don't see how to boost the subwoofer without also boosting the re-directed bass. If I have gone about this wrong, then, can someone please explain to me the proper way to correct for this -10db?

David Lynch Current Equipment: Marantz AV8801, Proceed HPA3, Parasound HCA-1206, Aerial Acoustics LR5's (LCR), Aerial Acoustics LR3's (sides), RBH in-walls (rears), Seaton Submersive, Marantz VP15s1, 106" Carada BW screen, Oppo BDP-103.
jdlynch is online now  
post #769 of 777 Old 03-22-2013, 06:16 PM
Advanced Member
 
palmfish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 785
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdlynch View Post

I'm so glad I found this thread as I am a little confused on how to set-up my Lexicon MC-12 to compensate for the analog SW -10db.

I am using an Oppo BDP-103 as a player and decoder. I am using its analog outputs into the Lexicon's 5.1 analog input. I have the Lexicon crossing over all speakers at 80hz to the sub. I have LFE turned off, and, subs set to mono.

I know the SW signal is reduced by 10 db in the Oppo, so, I need to compensate for that by boosting the SW in the Lexicon by 10 db. What I have done is adjust the Logic7 mode setting by boosting the sub by 10db.

Is this the correct way to compensate for the -10db analog SW out? Isn't it also adding 10db to the bass that was re-directed from the main channels?

I don't see how to boost the subwoofer without also boosting the re-directed bass. If I have gone about this wrong, then, can someone please explain to me the proper way to correct for this -10db?

Im not familiar with your particular AVR, but most modern AVRs have a menu setting for adding +10 dB SW compensation for the multichannel analog inputs.
palmfish is offline  
post #770 of 777 Old 03-22-2013, 06:37 PM
Advanced Member
 
jdlynch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Floyds Knobs, Indiana
Posts: 640
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by palmfish View Post

Im not familiar with your particular AVR, but most modern AVRs have a menu setting for adding +10 dB SW compensation for the multichannel analog inputs.

Thanks Palmfish-

My main concern is how my processor re-directs all the bass, from speakers set to small, to the subwoofer channel. Since I will be boosting the subwoofer PLUS the redirected bass, then, am I over compensating with too much boost?

David Lynch Current Equipment: Marantz AV8801, Proceed HPA3, Parasound HCA-1206, Aerial Acoustics LR5's (LCR), Aerial Acoustics LR3's (sides), RBH in-walls (rears), Seaton Submersive, Marantz VP15s1, 106" Carada BW screen, Oppo BDP-103.
jdlynch is online now  
post #771 of 777 Old 03-22-2013, 06:49 PM
AVS Special Member
 
BIslander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 8,476
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 32 Post(s)
Liked: 123
With most processors, you need to boost the sub output by 15dB when doing bass management in the player. LFE is recorded at the same level as the other channels, which is 10dB lower than the proper playback level. In order to fit in the sub channel without clipping, redirected bass is lowered by 15dB prior to mixing and LFE is dropped another 5dB. That gets both sources at the same -15dB level. You do a 15dB boost in the processor or at the sub itself and all levels are back where they belong. LFE maxes out at 115dB, as it should, and redirected bass from the full range channels maxes out at 105dB, as it would if it were still being played in the main speakers.

Your confusion may come from the fact that you think the Lexicon is doing bass management. It is not. That's all happening in the Oppo and the Lex is just acting like an amp. Bass management happens prior to the digital-analog conversion, which is why is has to be handled by the Oppo, not the Lex.

One other thing: from reading I did in the Oppo threads awhile back, I recall seeing that they always send the sub output -15dB, even when speakers are set to Large in the player.
BIslander is offline  
post #772 of 777 Old 09-01-2013, 10:35 AM
Senior Member
 
Noman74656's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota
Posts: 234
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 39
In my setup I have the Integra DHC 80.3 going to and Emotiva XPA-5 and UPA-500 for a 9.1. I have balanced interconnects going to the XPA-5, and un-balanced going to the UPA-500. Would it be beneficial to instead have all un-balanced interconnects just so everything going out from the Integra is the same? I'm at a point where I have to buy all new cables since I need longer lengths (13 ft.), and I know the XPA-5 is not a true differential amp anyway. I apologize if this question has been covered in this thread already.

"In nature there are neither rewards nor punishments; there are consequences."Robert Green Ingersoll

Noman74656's Martycube Builds
My Theater
Noman74656 is offline  
post #773 of 777 Old 01-22-2014, 06:22 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
arnyk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Grosse Pointe Woods, MI
Posts: 13,884
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 438 Post(s)
Liked: 1062
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noman74656 View Post

In my setup I have the Integra DHC 80.3 going to and Emotiva XPA-5 and UPA-500 for a 9.1.

I have balanced interconnects going to the XPA-5, and un-balanced going to the UPA-500. Would it be beneficial to instead have all un-balanced interconnects just so everything going out from the Integra is the same?

Seems like a step backward. It's like saying "I'm going to lock all of my four wheel drive vehicles into 2 wheel drive mode because I park two front wheel drive cars in the same garage".
Quote:
I'm at a point where I have to buy all new cables since I need longer lengths (13 ft.), and

Makes sense.
Quote:
I know the XPA-5 is not a true differential amp anyway.

Makes no sense. Plenty of documentation and opinion that it has balanced inputs, where did you get the idea that it doesn't?
arnyk is online now  
post #774 of 777 Old 02-28-2014, 01:26 PM
Member
 
Rogier75's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 22
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by KMO View Post



SW analogue output from players

Okay, what level should the subwoofer output be? If it were just the LFE track, then you'd expect it, as discussed above, to be 10dB lower than the other channels to fit the 10dB higher maximum LFE output.


But if the player is performing bass management, then the subwoofer output also has to contain redirected bass; this extra signal could push the signal back above its nominal limit. To prevent overloading their output, or the receiver's input, players with bass management conventionally lower the SW output by a further 5dB. (This 5dB value is specified by Dolby, see references). Sometimes this 5dB drop switches in and out depending on whether bass management is being performed (ie if any speakers are set to SMALL).


The final SW output will typically be:

SW = LFE

or:

SW = Lower5dB(LFE + Lower10dB(Redirected bass)) = Lower5dB(LFE) + Lower15dB(Redirected bass)

So, in those two cases the SW output from the player will be respectively 10dB or 15dB lower than the other channels. A receiver should offer the ability to specifically boost the SW input on its multichannel analogue interface to compensate.


This is something I can't quite get my head around.

Why is it that redirected bass, especially when lowered by 10dB, can push the player's SW out over it's nominal limit ?

Rotel processors give you the option to boost the SW channel on it's analog inns to a max of 10dB , iow a design flaw ?

Pioneer PDP427XD - Cambridge Audio Azur 752BD - Denon AVC A10SE - B&W 804S HTM4S SCMS ASW825
Rogier75 is offline  
post #775 of 777 Old 02-28-2014, 05:37 PM
AVS Special Member
 
BIslander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 8,476
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 32 Post(s)
Liked: 123
If LFE is already at 105dB, there is zero room for redirected bass. Any additional content will push the SW output beyond the 105dB nominal limit. So, when bass management is engaged in the player, it lowers LFE by another 5dB and lowers redirected bass by 15dB. That creates the needed headroom so that the maximum output being transmitted is 105dB. Then, the 15dB boost in the processor, or a the sub itself, gets both LFE and redirected bass back to the proper playback levels. Nothing clips during transmission and all levels are in the original balance.

And, not a design flaw in your Rotel. LFE is recorded 10dB lower than its proper playback level, which is 115dB. All processors are supposed to add the missing 10dB. The software takes care of it transparently with digital. The user has to do it with analog. But, the 10dB boost is needed either way.
BIslander is offline  
post #776 of 777 Old 03-01-2014, 01:18 AM
Member
 
Rogier75's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 22
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thanks for your reply.

I figured the redirected bass only adds information to the LFE channel but not more volume (dB) ? By adding content from the other channels (redirected bass) it actually increases the amplitude (dB) of the SW out ?

Sorry, confused due limited knowledge. :-)

What I meant with a design flaw on the Rotel processor is that it won't allow for more than a 10dB boost on it's SW in. Surely it should give me the option to boost the SW in by 15dB ?

Pioneer PDP427XD - Cambridge Audio Azur 752BD - Denon AVC A10SE - B&W 804S HTM4S SCMS ASW825
Rogier75 is offline  
post #777 of 777 Old 03-01-2014, 02:37 AM
AVS Special Member
 
BIslander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 8,476
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 32 Post(s)
Liked: 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogier75 View Post

Thanks for your reply.

I figured the redirected bass only adds information to the LFE channel but not more volume (dB) ? By adding content from the other channels (redirected bass) it actually increases the amplitude (dB) of the SW out ?
Correct. LFE is a specific channel. When using bass management, the sub outputs both LFE and redirected bass. Bass management does not affect LFE itself. It just adds content to the sub output.
Quote:
What I meant with a design flaw on the Rotel processor is that it won't allow for more than a 10dB boost on it's SW in. Surely it should give me the option to boost the SW in by 15dB ?
Yes, that is unfortunate. And not uncommon. Quite a few processors only offer 10dB of gain. There are ways to get around that limitation with most receivers. But, it can be a pain. HDMI is so much easier.
BIslander is offline  
Reply Audio theory, Setup and Chat

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off