LFE, subwoofers and interconnects explained - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 777 Old 12-02-2006, 01:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Useful to consider, Bob, but not really on the subject of the subforum or thread.
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post #62 of 777 Old 12-04-2006, 08:05 PM
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Say, what about the Onkyo SR-TX674?

Am I going to be sorry if I pull the trigger? Either due to LFE (which stood for Low Frequency Enhancement on my 1984 Onkyo TX-36) or other issues, like HDMI 1.1, or whatever...

BTW - Absolutely fab primer. Chock full for tech heads like me, and simple enough for chuckle heads like me.

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post #63 of 777 Old 12-05-2006, 03:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Not sure about the 674. It does appear to have 15dB of gain control for the analogue subwoofer input (although it's described oddly in the manual), but there's no digital LFE level control shown in the manual. Given the care on their higher-end models, I think there's a >50% chance they've got it fixed at the correct +10dB.

Maybe ask on the 674 thread in the amps section?
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post #64 of 777 Old 12-05-2006, 06:20 AM
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http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...44#post7517744

Start reading from post 400 on forward.

Pay attention to what Film Mixer is posting, especially quoted and bolded items, in regards to HDMI 1.3.

Lots of questions getting answered directly from Dolby people and everything else.

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #65 of 777 Old 12-08-2006, 02:54 PM
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Don't know if you want to add this as an LFE issue, but on another thread recently there was much discussion of AVR treatment of >80Hz information mixed into the LFE channel (Dolby Digital allows up to 120 Hz as a low-pass limit in the mixing studio, and some SACD/DVDs apparently have 'full range' music in the LFE) . Most if not all AVRs , when using bass management, combine and cross over the 'small' speaker channels AND the LFE channel before output to the sub. The 'upper' frequencies of the small channels are sent to the appropriate speakers, of course, but the 'upper' part of the LFE has nowhere to go. It's gone.

Now, this raises another issue -- do we really need, or *want* to retain that info anyway? Some have said that content above 80 Hz is rare in DD/DTS LFE channels (subwoofers set to reproduce it would become localizable too). Others add that the 'full range' LFE info in DVD-A/SACD isn't *meant* to be heard (which makes sense, as no subwoofer would be able to reproduce it anyway)

Still. Suppose one did not want to cross over their bass-managed system at 120 Hz (most people don't, unless they have TINY speakers). For example, if you have a THX-frioendly system, you want to keep the crossover at 80 Hz. The theoretically 'correct' behavior would be for LFE frequencies above that crossover point (ie from 80-120) to be sent to one of the other speakers (e.g. front L/R), rather than being lost.

here's an example of a thread where this is mentioned, though I know there must be others (I find AVS forum's search function to be all but useless these days)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2&page=1&pp=60
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post #66 of 777 Old 12-08-2006, 05:09 PM
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Per KMO's request in another thread:

The Sony STRDG1000 allows settings for speaker size, distance (including SW), level from -10 to +10 (including SW), and phase for all inputs, analog and digital. Same for EQ settings. There is a specific, separate setting for multichannel +10 LFE, but only for the 8-channel analog input. Crossover can be set on all inputs, but is disabled when speakers are set to LARGE.

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post #67 of 777 Old 12-09-2006, 01:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Ta for that. So there's no LFE level setting for internal DD/DTS decode? And the LFE level's right for external PCM?
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post #68 of 777 Old 12-16-2006, 11:51 AM
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KMO, can you point me to the thread/post where this info came from:

Quote:
Other odd player behaviour

* Oppo 970HD: Can bass manage and level adjust HDMI output; unfortunately this means LFE is 15dB low to make room, even with bass management off

Thanks.
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post #69 of 777 Old 12-16-2006, 02:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Blimey, dunno. You're right, I should have references. It would have come from this site. Search for 970HD and 15dB? Someone did specifically give me that detailed info.

The Oppo's rather odd in that respect, apparently - it doesn't give you "raw" audio over HDMI like all normal players do - it gives you the same thing going to its analogue outputs, so you have to set delays to 0 and speakers to large, otherwise you'll get receiver adjustments on top of player adjustments.

If that 15dB thing is true, you'll probably need to turn all mains down 5dB to restore the 10dB difference the receiver expects.
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post #70 of 777 Old 12-17-2006, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KMO View Post

Not sure about the 674. It does appear to have 15dB of gain control for the analogue subwoofer input (although it's described oddly in the manual), but there's no digital LFE level control shown in the manual. Given the care on their higher-end models, I think there's a >50% chance they've got it fixed at the correct +10dB.

Maybe ask on the 674 thread in the amps section?

You're right about the odd manual description. I thought it was me for a second.
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post #71 of 777 Old 12-18-2006, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KMO View Post

Blimey, dunno. You're right, I should have references. It would have come from this site. Search for 970HD and 15dB? Someone did specifically give me that detailed info.

The Oppo's rather odd in that respect, apparently - it doesn't give you "raw" audio over HDMI like all normal players do - it gives you the same thing going to its analogue outputs, so you have to set delays to 0 and speakers to large, otherwise you'll get receiver adjustments on top of player adjustments.

If that 15dB thing is true, you'll probably need to turn all mains down 5dB to restore the 10dB difference the receiver expects.

well, as an Oppo 970 owner, I can try to test this by changing settings -- any HDMI PCM output effects should be pretty obvious if true. My recollection of my own experience is that the only thing that affected HDMI PCM output was the global volume change and the downmix/mch setting -- the per-channel level sliders had no effect, for example. But I will recheck this, and bass management too.
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post #72 of 777 Old 12-18-2006, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KMO View Post

Purely on these functionality concerns, I'm tending for the Denon AVR-3806, or its AVR-3807 successor if that's as good. Denon understand the issues, and have put in all the options, with sensible defaults. But I don't like relying on a proprietary Denon Link hook-up.

I originally started considering the Marantz SR7001, for its 4xHDMI 1.2 connectivity, but I don't yet have any information about its LFE handling over HDMI PCM/DSD. I'm also wary of being forced to bundle video and audio, as HDMI requires. Separate connections, i.Link style, strike me as being less prone to problems (such as not being able to get full-res audio with 480i/576i on many devices, or general format-negotiation and copy-protection grief).

The Pioneer VSX-AX4ASi (VSX-84TXSi) was a strong contender, having i.Link, but the lack of LFE boost holes it below the waterline for me.

Part of the problem is that I also need to get a new universal player. But at the moment, I'd probably end up forced to get a matching pair - only Denon players have Denon Link, only the upcoming Marantz DV7001 is likely to have HDMI 1.2 SACD output in the near future (and this would probably be my preferred player), and only Pioneer DVD players have i.Link in my price-range. So that complicates the decision.

I've not heard or seen any of these receivers in real life yet, I'm still researching. I currently own a 5+ year old Marantz SR7200.

So, KMO ... did you pull the trigger on an AVR yet? For myself, I decided to assume that Pio would fix the LFE issue via firmware, and went ahead with the 84. But I'm curious about which side of the fence you came down on.
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post #73 of 777 Old 12-19-2006, 05:56 AM
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Quick question on the Onkyo SR-804E. What receiver is this? I know there is a TX804. Is that the same receiver? I can't find anything on the SR-804E. I don't raelly care about turing 5.1 -> 7.1 so that's not an issue for me nor do I can to run the 5.1 out to another device. Hence, this may be a perfect receiver for me - cheaper than the Denons.

Thanks,
Chris
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post #74 of 777 Old 12-19-2006, 06:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paulnpcom View Post

So, KMO ... did you pull the trigger on an AVR yet? For myself, I decided to assume that Pio would fix the LFE issue via firmware, and went ahead with the 84. But I'm curious about which side of the fence you came down on.

I haven't yet. I'm very much inclined to the Pioneer, but I'm not going to budge until the firmware fix is confirmed, and I can be sure I can pick up a fixed unit here in England.

The choice of DVD player is also key for me, as due to the lamentable state of interconnects, I'm rather restricted. It has to be Pioneer+Pioneer or Denon+Denon, or maybe Marantz+Marantz. There's no way to mix-and-match at the moment, thanks to the limited support of i.Link in mid-range kit, Denon's stupid proprietary interconnects, and the lack of DSD-over-HDMI-capable players.

I'm inclined to go with i.Link, and I hear good things about the Pioneer DV-989 (59 in USA?), so I'm just waiting for the firmware fix.

Actually, I'm still not clear on whether the Pioneer has the LFE bug over i.Link. Can anyone comment?
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post #75 of 777 Old 12-19-2006, 06:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schlotkins View Post

Quick question on the Onkyo SR-804E. What receiver is this? I know there is a TX804. Is that the same receiver?

Sorry, mistake in my list. Should have been TX-SR804E. That's the same unit you're thinking of, but European version, I think. I'm sure it's basically the same as the US version.
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post #76 of 777 Old 12-19-2006, 06:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KMO View Post

Sorry, mistake in my list. Should have been TX-SR804E. That's the same unit you're thinking of, but European version, I think. I'm sure it's basically the same as the US version.

Thanks KMO! So, just to verify, this receiver can over come the LFE bug, correct? Do we know about the 803? I can't even figure out difference between the 2.

Thanks,
Chris
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post #77 of 777 Old 12-19-2006, 06:28 AM - Thread Starter
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I've really not studied the Onkyos that closely - they seem to have an awful lot of very similar models I can't really imagine the 804's siblings would get it wrong, but I don't know.

The 804 is fine by all accounts, and according to its manual.
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post #78 of 777 Old 12-19-2006, 06:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KMO View Post

I've really not studied the Onkyos that closely - they seem to have an awful lot of very similar models I can't really imagine the 804's siblings would get it wrong, but I don't know.

The 804 is fine by all accounts, and according to its manual.

I just read the 804 (USA and European version) manual. here's what it says on p.68:

"With this setting, you can set the level of the LFE (Low
Frequency Effects) channel for Dolby Digital, DTS,
MCH PCM (HDMI IN), and MCH Ana (multichannel
DVD input). The level can be set to -∞, -20 dB, -10 dB,
or 0 dB (default).
If you find that the low-frequency effects are too loud
when using one of these sources, set the level to -20 dB
or -∞ dB."

I'm not seeing +10 there, which would be the setting to correct for the issue correct?

Chris
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post #79 of 777 Old 12-19-2006, 08:36 AM - Thread Starter
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As the top post explains (I think), if a receiver offers settings only going up to 0dB, as most/all do, then 0dB means +10 on LFE, -10dB means no gain on LFE, -20dB means -10 on LFE, -infinity means LFE muted.

+10 on LFE is the "correct" setting, so that's shown as an adjustment of 0dB. Any change lowers it from the correct setting. THX mandates that labelling. There used to be confusion, in that some receivers labelled the ranges for DD and DTS differently(!)
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post #80 of 777 Old 12-19-2006, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KMO View Post

As the top post explains (I think), if a receiver offers settings only going up to 0dB, as most/all do, then 0dB means +10 on LFE, -10dB means no gain on LFE, -20dB means -10 on LFE, -infinity means LFE muted.

+10 on LFE is the "correct" setting, so that's shown as an adjustment of 0dB. Any change lowers it from the correct setting. THX mandates that labelling. There used to be confusion, in that some receivers labelled the ranges for DD and DTS differently(!)

KMO-

Thanks again - it does mention that in the opening post, I just missed it. I figured since it was set as default correct, with all of this receiver LFE garbage, that it had to be wrong.

Looks like the 804 could be an interesting choice. Doesn't have the same online dealer restrictions as the Denons.

Chris
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post #81 of 777 Old 12-19-2006, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schlotkins View Post

KMO-

Thanks again - it does mention that in the opening post, I just missed it. I figured since it was set as default correct, with all of this receiver LFE garbage, that it had to be wrong.

Looks like the 804 could be an interesting choice. Doesn't have the same online dealer restrictions as the Denons.

Chris

I'm a 674 owner and as KMO has mentioned in the past, the manual is really bizarre how they explain this issue.

It's possible that the 674 has the LFE correction because it's so similar to the 8 series but who really knows.

Heck, you call Onkyo and they don't even know, doh!
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post #82 of 777 Old 12-19-2006, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J y E 4Ever View Post

I'm a 674 owner and as KMO has mentioned in the past, the manual is really bizarre how they explain this issue.

It's possible that the 674 has the LFE correction because it's so similar to the 8 series but who really knows.

Heck, you call Onkyo and they don't even know, doh!

Do you have something to test it with? I'd love just to get a 604 or 674 if both of those have the correct LFE. I'm not sure waht the difference is between those and the 804 (power?), but that would be another option. Perhaps I'll have to get the 604 and test it myself.

Chris
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post #83 of 777 Old 12-19-2006, 09:12 PM
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KMO,
so I gather your information on the Denon 3806 is only from the manual, and not from actual experience?
I'm in the same boat as you, I currently looking the Elite too, but the confirmed LFE issue is a definite deal breaker for me.So I'm eying on the 3806 or even the 2807 but I must be sure about this.

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post #84 of 777 Old 12-19-2006, 10:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KMO View Post

I haven't yet. I'm very much inclined to the Pioneer, but I'm not going to budge until the firmware fix is confirmed, and I can be sure I can pick up a fixed unit here in England.

Quote:
Originally Posted by metalsaber View Post

Just got off the phone with Pioneer CSR and asked about the 2 issues at hand:

1.) Green verticle band that is about 3" from the left side of screen that is only visible when using Component inputs to the receiver then outputting via HDMI to my TV. No upconversion done.

I was told that this was fixed in an earlier firmware upgrade.

2.) Low LFE experienced while watching new BD and HD-DVD and their LPCM audio tracks.

He told me they were scheduled to have a firmware upgrade for this issue by the end of the month.

He told me that the firmware upgrade was fast as in couple mins. He did say they would send out an email when the firmware was available.

relevant to our discussion, from another thread (I'd post a link but for the noobe restriction ...)
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post #85 of 777 Old 12-20-2006, 03:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thehun View Post

KMO,
so I gather your information on the Denon 3806 is only from the manual, and not from actual experience?
I'm in the same boat as you, I currently looking the Elite too, but the confirmed LFE issue is a definite deal breaker for me.So I'm eying on the 3806 or even the 2807 but I must be sure about this.

I don't have personal experience, but the manual's very clear on this issue, and others have reported that it functions as described. Definitely no problem.

I'm torn between the 84 and the 3806. The main negatives on the 3806 for me are Denon Link (I would be forced to go with the DVD-2930), lack of THX Select, and not enough HDMI. Other than that it looks exceedingly capable. The designers of the digital pre-pro part clearly know what they're doing. I'm a trifle wary of the sound quality of the analogue bits, but to be honest, things like functionality and user interface are higher priority to me than sound quality differences, which would be minor.

I'm also aware the 3806 is somewhat older, and a replacement might be along within 6 months; I could hold out for that.
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post #86 of 777 Old 12-20-2006, 04:31 AM - Thread Starter
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I've just added the Panasonic SA-XR57 to the list. I think it probably deserves its own category in the hall of shame - it can't bass-manage multichannel PCM input. That renders it pretty useless for HDMI with DVD-Audio/Blu-ray/HD-DVD, unless you're using one of the few players that offer bass management over HDMI.

Even then you might have a few problems, as it will bass manage/time-delay 2-channel input over HDMI - its processing will be going on and off depending on how many channels your device is sending...
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post #87 of 777 Old 12-20-2006, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KMO View Post

I haven't yet. I'm very much inclined to the Pioneer, but I'm not going to budge until the firmware fix is confirmed, and I can be sure I can pick up a fixed unit here in England.

The choice of DVD player is also key for me, as due to the lamentable state of interconnects, I'm rather restricted. It has to be Pioneer+Pioneer or Denon+Denon, or maybe Marantz+Marantz. There's no way to mix-and-match at the moment, thanks to the limited support of i.Link in mid-range kit, Denon's stupid proprietary interconnects, and the lack of DSD-over-HDMI-capable players.

I'm inclined to go with i.Link, and I hear good things about the Pioneer DV-989 (59 in USA?), so I'm just waiting for the firmware fix.

ilink does not require Pioneer-to-Pioneer . I use a Yamaha S2500 (~$500 US) player with a Pio 74txvi, connected by ilink. (Also have an Oppo 970 HD connected via HDMI)


Quote:
Actually, I'm still not clear on whether the Pioneer has the LFE bug over i.Link. Can anyone comment?

Another thing I can check...when I get an increasingly mythical day off ;>
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post #88 of 777 Old 12-21-2006, 03:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

ilink does not require Pioneer-to-Pioneer .

Theoretically, no. But nothing else currently available remotely in the price range I'm considering has i.Link, so it's as good as being Pioneer proprietary, in practice.

Although I'd like to leave open the door to future expansion, maybe with higher-end kit.

Interesting that the Yamaha 2500 had it. The 2700 doesn't. Which means that the 2700 is a downgrade - it can no longer output SACD digitally. Idiots.

How to knock yourself off a purchasing shortlist in one easy step.
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post #89 of 777 Old 12-21-2006, 05:06 AM
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I'll reiterate everyone's thanks for this thread...great stuff.

Quote:


I've just added the Panasonic SA-XR57 to the list. I think it probably deserves its own category in the hall of shame - it can't bass-manage multichannel PCM input. That renders it pretty useless for HDMI with DVD-Audio/Blu-ray/HD-DVD, unless you're using one of the few players that offer bass management over HDMI.

But perhaps could still be a nice companion for something like the Toshiba HD-A2 for TrueHd or Oppo 981 for SACD/DVD-A since it's so cheap...if it handles LFE correctly.

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post #90 of 777 Old 12-22-2006, 03:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KMO View Post

Not sure about the 674. It does appear to have 15dB of gain control for the analogue subwoofer input (although it's described oddly in the manual), but there's no digital LFE level control shown in the manual. Given the care on their higher-end models, I think there's a >50% chance they've got it fixed at the correct +10dB.

Maybe ask on the 674 thread in the amps section?

Oddly formulated, but correct. I just tested this on my 674 on the analogue inputs using a multi-channel SACD: Changing "SW Input Sensitivity" on the 674 from 0db (default) to 5db clearly _lowers_ the gain (i.e. less bass to subwoofer).

The default value of 0db works fine for me using the Onkyo SP503E player with bass management on the analogue outputs where all speakers are set to "small". When playing the CD layer and letting the 674 do the bass management, I have similar output level on the subwoofer as when playing multichannel SACD.

It is not directly clear from the manual of 674: the reciever speaker levels are applied to the analogue inputs. This is nice since the player does not have that option.
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