11.1+1 + 4 Surround Sound, experimenting in enhancing/expanding 5.1-7.1 formats - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 63 Old 01-23-2008, 02:50 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Socio's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 2,255
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
**Updated, added rear center to the mix 2/02/2009, see post #39


*Minor change 1/10/2009
See Post #36


**Updated**
See post #34

22.2 Surround Sound, experimenting in enhancing/expanding 5.1-7.1 formats

Current configuration;





How it got there;

This thread chronicles the progression of the tests to the current configuration.

Some people build model planes and some like to collect coins as a hobby I like to experiment with various aspects of home theatre including seeking surround sound nirvana.

In a previous thread found here I talked about overhead sound I was getting using a CS3X Jr in my experimental HTPC home theatre system I have in a back bedroom. In that thread CAVX clued me on using two CS3X Jr's to get 4 extra channels, left & right overhead and left & right front side axis channels. I tried it and I like it, here is basically what I did;

I ran the left front & left side surround outs to the left front & right front inputs on one CS3X Jr then used its the SP1 output as left side axis and SP2 output as left overhead. Then did the same with right front & right side surround on the other CS3X for the right side axis and right overhead channels.

This creates a surround sound system very similar to Tom Holman's 10.2 surround sound the only real difference was I was using 2 rear surrounds and a single sub.

Here is a good description of Tom's

Introducing the 10.2 Surround Format

The addition of the front side axis channels had a big affect on the sound, it was bigger wider sound and the sound transition from fronts to side surrounds was smooth, it was with out a doubt the biggest impact on the sound of any of the additional channels.

I was so impressed with this I decided to take it a couple steps further and added two more CS3X Jr's to the mix. Using the same technique mentioned above instead using the side and rear surrounds to create rear left & right side axis channels and rear right & left overheads.

In my experimental system I have a HTPC and it has a sound test that sends a helicopter sound to each speaker circling around the all the speakers clockwise and the side axis channels grab it perfectly in between the speakers they are placed between. I have also tested it with the THX Optimizer and between it and the helicopter test they appear to work flawlessly.

Now these new rear channels do not have the same impact as the front side axis channels but they do add to the overall effect. You get smoother front to rear and rear to front sound transitions like drive bys, flyovers, bullet whizzes, explosions etc and fuller more enveloping ambient movie sounds like when background music hits all channels.

It also works great for NFL football games particularly ones being broadcast in DD 5.1 it is like having virtual seat in the stadium with the crowd roars all around.


I did say I took a couple steps; the other thing I did after reading the debates on this big subwoofer thread and coming to the conclusion that to get all the bass possible you really need at least one sub dedicated to LFE and a bass management sub that would get any bass being sent to speakers. So I borrowed one of my M&K 350's from my main theatre and my M&K BMC bass management unit I use for SACD and DVD-A playback in my main theatre.

I set all speakers to large in my experimental system set the 350 as the LFE, and placed it at the front far left of the system. The BMC is only 5.1 so to try get all the bass from all the speakers I ran the sub outs on the four CS3X Jr's to the BMC for the front left & right and surround left & right and used the Center out from the receiver to the Center in on the BMC this way I get most all the bass from all the speakers including the additional channels. I then ran the sub out on the BMC to a small sub and placed it a bout mid way on the right and it works great, I get lows that would not otherwise be produced just using a LFE alone.

CAVX asked for some pictures in that other thread but I never got around to taking or posting any. However this time I did take some mostly to prove I really have this setup.

Now this is a system I use to experiment with, it is a relatively inexpensive system made up of old amps I had lying around, Klipsch THX Promedia speakers ( about as cheap a speaker you can get that still sounds good) and a hodgepodge of speaker stands all in a tight space so it is not pretty. It also does not produce near the quality of sound a high end system in a designated theatre room with adequate spaced out speaker placements, and treatments could but does allow for a good feel of the possibilities.







Note on the overheads; to avoid being beaten about the head by Sanjay or sivadselim it should be stated that it has been established and reiterated time and again there is no designated overhead material in current surround sound formats. What is getting sent up there according to CAVX
Quote:


is a "difference" signal contained in both channels where one channel is out of phase.

I have found what sounds do get up there works provided you calibrate them so that you can't not sit down watch a movie and discern that they are on but can tell when they turned off. If done correctly only the loudest sounds being sent to the overheads should high enough to be audible to your ears yet blend in with the other speakers producing the same sound, like explosions, rocks falling down, plane crashing, echo effects, ambient music etc This should diminish the possibility of distracting out of place sounds and immersion interruption and create deeper immersion, does for me anyway.



In the future I want to use this setup in my main home theatre, when I do I think the best way would be to use the same speakers I am using for the fronts, for the front side axis the rest matching surrounds. Three subs, two for LFE and one for BM sub, I also think using di or tri poles for the overheads for better sound diffusion from above would be better than direct radiating and reduce the chance of any distracting sounds from above being detected. Also I think I may add yet two more CS3X Jr's for left and right center overheads for six overhead channels using the front and rear side axis channels to derive them.
Socio is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 63 Old 01-23-2008, 03:00 PM
 
JBLsound4645's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Bournemouth, Dorset, United Kingdom
Posts: 5,409
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I like it so how much does the (CS3X Jr’s) go for today, they’ve been out for quite a few years now, so the prices must have dropped. The only other way I would do this is with matching Dolby pro-logic processors and slight bit of hand, some patience and hey presto I have sound images in places along the sidewalls, and I’m not referring to the common based Dolby-EX.

Keep up the good work mate it looks good.

You mentioned (phase) if you use the THX Optimizer mode, where it tests the surrounds with (phasing) and if you have a common Dolby pro-logic decoded connected to the stereo surrounds and use all its outputs.

Left is usual the front, but now it’s used for left sidewall surround.
Centre is usual the front, but now its used centre back surround
Right is usual the front, but now it’s used for right sidewall surround

And last but not least the matrix rear surround that was commonly used for rear surround when it detected a phase change in the mix, it was reproduced behind you!

But due to channel crosstalk music from fronts often speech dialogue was heard, depending on how well the Dolby stereo 4:2:4 mix was done, you’d never really notice any distraction.

So yes with the THX Optimizer mode when it cycles though the phasing and when it goes to out-off-phase its reproduced on the matrix rear, or height channel if that makes things better.

Apollo 13 has some crazy mixing going on the stereo surrounds, when the crew fires the LEM’S engine for short burn, you can hear in the mission control room the sound bouncing around on the surrounds and above me for a brief exciting moment.
JBLsound4645 is offline  
post #3 of 63 Old 01-23-2008, 03:14 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Socio's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 2,255
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBLsound4645 View Post

I like it so how much does the (CS3X Jr's) go for today, they've been out for quite a few years now, so the prices must have dropped. The only other way I would do this is with matching Dolby pro-logic processors and slight bit of hand, some patience and hey presto I have sound images in places along the sidewalls, and I'm not referring to the common based Dolby-EX.

Keep up the good work mate it looks good.

Yes you should be able to do it with matching Dolby pro-logic processors, I thought of that too but the downside is they are big and will give of a lot of heat. Where the CS3X Jr's are small thus easy to hide away out of sight and give off very little heat. Plus the CS3X Jr.s can be had for pretty cheap I got mine from Ebay for $75 each brand new.
Socio is offline  
post #4 of 63 Old 01-23-2008, 03:24 PM
 
JBLsound4645's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Bournemouth, Dorset, United Kingdom
Posts: 5,409
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Socio View Post

Yes you should be able to do it with matching Dolby pro-logic processors, I thought of that too but the downside is they are big and will give of a lot of heat. Where the CS3X Jr's are small thus easy to hide away out of sight and give off very little heat. Plus the CS3X Jr.s can be had for pretty cheap I got mine from Ebay for $75 each brand new.

Wow that’s a wicked bargain I would say. There was an article published a few years back in Widescreen magazine, the (CS3X Jr’s) was under the scope for the test of five-screen reproduction in the home, the SDDS8 channel or Todd-AO format and you know what it really worked. I used a few mismatching Dolby pro-logic decoders at the time, because that was all I hand on hand.

I wouldn’t mind if I could get hold of a few more Yamaha DSR-70pro but this model was obsolete around 1992 I guess, it first came out around late 1989 early 1990, not a bad Dolby pro-logic processor.

Mate if I had the bottle to buy off, of the Ebay site I would gladly buy a handful. I don’t think there’s supplier I the UK that supplies (Smart CS3X Jr’s)?
JBLsound4645 is offline  
post #5 of 63 Old 01-23-2008, 03:43 PM
Member
 
Import racer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 34
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Nice work mate,

I also use a 10.2 system comprising of a Yamaha Z9 and an Yamaha A1 for the rears.
Your right it works very well, i actually did it by accident while trying to get the extra centre rear with a Yamaha dspa 1000 running from the rear outputs of the A1 many years ago, then just added the extra high rear speakers although i have put mine far back just behind the rear centre.
Obviously with the Yamaha you get the extra front presence channels which add a soft extra ambient edge to the sound and better localisation to the projector screen.
Also i use 3 subs 1 left 1 right and 1 in the centre between the front mains, using all kef speakers and sub plus mission di-poles and then two paradigms, just for overkill i'm adding some jl diy subs, when they are finished.

It also works very well with music.

Would love the Yamaha Z11 which has it all built in, but will have to wait till the price drops as they do.

The only problem is all the speakers, but its worth it especially with a great action movie !

You must put in your home cinema room when you get chance
Import racer is offline  
post #6 of 63 Old 01-23-2008, 05:54 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Socio's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 2,255
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
The Yamaha Z11 has CINEMA DSP HD3 gives you extra front and rear presence channels.

I have the real old Yamaha DSP-1 I used it before there was 5.1 surround sound, in fact I am using the old 4 channel amp I used to use with it to drive the overheads now and it has front and rear presence channels. If the ones in the Z11 are the same as the old DSP-1 then these channels were designed to go high above and behind the front left and right and in the rear at the same height as the front presences.

It was great for music and movies back then but I tried it again a couple years ago did not like it as much with 5.1-7.1 surround sound. I think the CS3X Jr's overhead sound is better for movies as the presence channel puts constant ambient sound where the CS3X Jr's overhead calibrated right only puts sound above you when it is has the most impact.

However one could get the Yamaha Z11 and 6 CS3X Jr's and have 7.1 plus front and rear side axis channels, 6 overhead, and front and rear presence channels for a 21.1 surround sound system.

If I ever come across another 4-5 channel amp and four more speakers for cheap I might break out my old DSP-1 and try adding presence channels in to my experimental systems mix just to see how it sounds however. I think fronts might be ok but not so sure about rear ones.
Socio is offline  
post #7 of 63 Old 01-23-2008, 05:57 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Socio's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 2,255
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBLsound4645 View Post

Wow that's a wicked bargain I would say. There was an article published a few years back in Widescreen magazine, the (CS3X Jr's) was under the scope for the test of five-screen reproduction in the home, the SDDS8 channel or Todd-AO format and you know what it really worked. I used a few mismatching Dolby pro-logic decoders at the time, because that was all I hand on hand.

I wouldn't mind if I could get hold of a few more Yamaha DSR-70pro but this model was obsolete around 1992 I guess, it first came out around late 1989 early 1990, not a bad Dolby pro-logic processor.

Mate if I had the bottle to buy off, of the Ebay site I would gladly buy a handful. I don't think there's supplier I the UK that supplies (Smart CS3X Jr's)?

Yea it is a good deal considering they used to be over $300 US if memory serves. As to where to get them in the UK I have no idea, try googling to see if anyone ships there.
Socio is offline  
post #8 of 63 Old 01-24-2008, 01:57 AM
 
JBLsound4645's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Bournemouth, Dorset, United Kingdom
Posts: 5,409
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Yeah that’s right I was looking around last night, while you was talking to the other member. I was trying to find the article link on finding more channels or something like that, I just can’t remember the title, I tried a dozen or so keyword names and only few other articles, not quite relating to the (Smart CS3X Jr’s) but interesting reading.

This link is still active on the secrets site, Dolby-EX with Smart, but the one was trying to hunt down was, finding more channels SDDS8?
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...arch-2000.html

Still if you don’t mind reading though these articles that are published in Mix, I occasionally used buy this magazine a each month from Borders, still have a few around.

Pearl Harbor
http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_pearl_harbor/

The Patriot
http://mixguides.com/consoles/tips_a...ot-movie-0700/
JBLsound4645 is offline  
post #9 of 63 Old 01-24-2008, 06:01 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Terry Montlick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: State of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations
Posts: 3,261
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
What about the front height channels? This seems to me to be a fundamental advance which both Tom Holman and David Griesinger have in their proposed 10.2 systems. Yes, one can try to synthesize height channels, as one receiver manufacturer has done for years. But it is not the same thing as having such channels separately mixed and recorded. IMAX has just a single height channel, and I think it adds an amazing amount of spatial accuracy to the front sound.

Regards,
Terry

Terry Montlick Laboratories
Home Theater Acoustics
Critical Listening Rooms
Design, Evaluation, Alpha Certification®
www.tmlaboratories.com
Terry Montlick is offline  
post #10 of 63 Old 01-24-2008, 06:24 AM
 
JBLsound4645's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Bournemouth, Dorset, United Kingdom
Posts: 5,409
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
There’s a nice line in Apollo 13 “Jim you’re all set” this line is heard on (left and right) front only, while the centre channel carries Foley effects and music, same with left right with the music.


I can place that information ether above the centre channel, or I can mix it, into the centre channel across the normal matching LCR fronts, so there are many possibilities to this, all of them feasible.

There’s also a similar effect in Die Hard with a Vengeance, where Simon, phones up a radio station, his voice is only heard on left and right while the DJ is placed in the centre channel.

I can do many things with my home cinema to create an atmosphere, that is slightly different from the one down the road.
JBLsound4645 is offline  
post #11 of 63 Old 01-24-2008, 02:07 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Socio's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 2,255
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry Montlick View Post

What about the front height channels? This seems to me to be a fundamental advance which both Tom Holman and David Griesinger have in their proposed 10.2 systems. Yes, one can try to synthesize height channels, as one receiver manufacturer has done for years. But it is not the same thing as having such channels separately mixed and recorded. IMAX has just a single height channel, and I think it adds an amazing amount of spatial accuracy to the front sound.

Regards,
Terry

Are not both the Tom Holman 10.2 and the David Griesinger's overhead or height channels just matrix derived same as the ones in my test system?

I agree having height mixed versus synthesizing them would be much better but for now if you want them synthesizing is the only way for now. However it is my understanding that DTS MA does support an overhead channel so maybe we will get real overhead mixes in the future.

By the way who makes the receiver that has the ability to synthesize height channels? I know a couple that can do front side axis but never heard of one that does height.
Socio is offline  
post #12 of 63 Old 01-24-2008, 02:53 PM
Member
 
Import racer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 34
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hi i think Yamaha are the only ones to provide front height presence channels, all their top of the line av amps have them and next from top usually have them.

They work very well, there is some form of processing going on not sure what, but they are certainly missed when not on.

I dont think any one else has bothered to pay Yamaha as they have the patent on them, one other top of the line processors has 4 assignable channels which maybe could be used not 100% sure but think it could be the lexicon mc12.

By the way how many speakers are you using ?
Import racer is offline  
post #13 of 63 Old 01-24-2008, 03:06 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Terry Montlick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: State of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations
Posts: 3,261
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Yes, I was thinking of the Yamaha presence speakers, which are placed up high.

- Terry

Terry Montlick Laboratories
Home Theater Acoustics
Critical Listening Rooms
Design, Evaluation, Alpha Certification®
www.tmlaboratories.com
Terry Montlick is offline  
post #14 of 63 Old 01-24-2008, 03:27 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Monterey Park, CA
Posts: 18,732
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 469 Post(s)
Liked: 601
Quote:
Originally Posted by Socio View Post

Are not both the Tom Holman 10.2 and the David Griesinger's overhead or height channels just matrix derived same as the ones in my test system?

No, both use discretely recorded height info.
Quote:


By the way who makes the receiver that has the ability to synthesize height channels? I know a couple that can do front side axis but never heard of one that does height.

No receivers synthesize height channels. Yamaha receivers generate reverb and early reflections, sending the added information to 'presense' speakers placed higher and wider than the front L/R speakers. This expands the front soundstage and simulates the effect of being in a larger listening space.

The main difference between what you're doing and what the Yamaha DSP modes are doing is that they are adding information to the recording while you're extracting information from the recording. Ambience extraction uses more speakers to stabilize imaging in the soundstage, while ambience generation using more speakers is better suited for room simulation.

Sanjay

Sanjay
sdurani is online now  
post #15 of 63 Old 01-24-2008, 03:45 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Socio's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 2,255
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Import racer View Post

Hi i think Yamaha are the only ones to provide front height presence channels, all their top of the line av amps have them and next from top usually have them.

They work very well, there is some form of processing going on not sure what, but they are certainly missed when not on.

I dont think any one else has bothered to pay Yamaha as they have the patent on them, one other top of the line processors has 4 assignable channels which maybe could be used not 100% sure but think it could be the lexicon mc12.

By the way how many speakers are you using ?

I mentioned the Yamaha one a few posts up did not think that was what Terry Montlick was referring to. Those are more for ambiance and would indeed make the front stage bigger/taller and more spacial but they are not the same as the ones being derived using the CS3X Jr. However the addition of two front presence channels lifting the sound higher could create an even better sound blend between the front stage and the CS3X Jr derived overheads.

The Parasound Halo is the one that has the extra 4 customizable channels.

On how many speakers; I am using the 7 speakers from my original 7.1 setup plus 4 for side axis speakers and 4 overhead so 15 total plus 2 subs.
Socio is offline  
post #16 of 63 Old 01-24-2008, 04:12 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Socio's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 2,255
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Yamaha receivers generate reverb and early reflections, sending the added information to 'presense' speakers placed higher and wider than the front L/R speakers. This expands the front soundstage and simulates the effect of being in a larger listening space.

The main difference between what you're doing and what the Yamaha DSP modes are doing is that they are adding information to the recording while you're extracting information from the recording. Ambience extraction uses more speakers to stabilize imaging in the soundstage, while ambience generation using more speakers is better suited for room simulation.

Sanjay

Interesting, I always thought the sound from presence channels were just extracted and manipulated existing sound then reproduced in its altered form not adding additional info to create them.

Perhaps a marriage of both extraction created sound and the generated presence sound might be the best way to go. I am going to have to try it when I can and see.
Socio is offline  
post #17 of 63 Old 01-24-2008, 04:19 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Terry Montlick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: State of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations
Posts: 3,261
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
I think around 3 more years for the old Yamaha patent to expire in the US. Then this invention becomes public domain.

Terry Montlick Laboratories
Home Theater Acoustics
Critical Listening Rooms
Design, Evaluation, Alpha Certification®
www.tmlaboratories.com
Terry Montlick is offline  
post #18 of 63 Old 01-24-2008, 06:14 PM
Member
 
Import racer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 34
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Nice theater and info,

Never thought of building in the speakers like that it looks great !

I have 17 speakers in total so far plus two extra subs going in when the boxes have been finished being sprayed, which includes 3 centres and two smaller speakers on top of the normal rears to diffuse the sound a little, plus the normal set.
Also two more kef floorstanders off e-bay on there way so hiding them all would be great as so many is getting a little oppressive to look at.

How are the extra 2 fronts controlled ? are they delayed with a Cs3x ?
Import racer is offline  
post #19 of 63 Old 01-25-2008, 04:02 AM
 
JBLsound4645's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Bournemouth, Dorset, United Kingdom
Posts: 5,409
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I think home or cinema should go to the extreme, but I’ve heard that there’s a good sound system at Disney, I might be wrong.

What about 9 channel screen sound with sounds that can be moved in three directions from the left. Below middle and above, same goes with centre and right channel.

The same again with the surrounds below middle and above, I think the application for something like this would create a nightmare for sound mixers; I mean they’ll be working literally around clock to create the best mix presented by all these channels. LOL 17.1 now that’s insane, but doable.
JBLsound4645 is offline  
post #20 of 63 Old 01-25-2008, 09:39 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Terry Montlick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: State of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations
Posts: 3,261
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBLsound4645 View Post

...I’ve heard that there’s a good sound system at Disney, I might be wrong.

Disney utilized the first commercial multichannel sound format -- in 1940! This was called "Fantasound," and was developed along with RCA. The movie that used it was, of course, "Fantasia." There were 4 soundtracks recorded on film. Three were for program material mostly coming out of left, center, and right front speakers, and the fourth was a control track. The control track provided gain information to increase dynamic range by 50 dB. The 4 soundtracks were on a separate 35mm film running in sync. There were also rear left and right speakers, which got switched in to receive rerouted front left and right program channels at particular spots in the film. This switching was done manually for the 8 roadshows, and eventually automatically via relays (switched from notches on the film edge) in one LA theater.

5 channel sound. Not bad for nearly 7 decades ago.

Regards,
Terry

Terry Montlick Laboratories
Home Theater Acoustics
Critical Listening Rooms
Design, Evaluation, Alpha Certification®
www.tmlaboratories.com
Terry Montlick is offline  
post #21 of 63 Old 01-25-2008, 10:29 AM
 
JBLsound4645's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Bournemouth, Dorset, United Kingdom
Posts: 5,409
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Terry Montlick

Thanks mate, I’ve known about that Disney fact for 20 years, maybe I’m thinking of Universal and no its not the (((Sensurround))) system it’s a sound system that they use at there, theme park rides?
JBLsound4645 is offline  
post #22 of 63 Old 01-25-2008, 02:33 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Socio's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 2,255
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Import racer View Post

How are the extra 2 fronts controlled ? are they delayed with a Cs3x ?

Depends on what extra fronts you are referring to;

If you are taking about the Tom Holman 10.2 and the David Griesinger's overhead or height channels, according to Sanjay both use discretely recorded height info. Meaning, sounds for those speakers were mixed specifically for them instead of extracting them or creating them out of a pre-recorded 5.1, 7.1 mix.

If you are referring to the front side axis in my test setup they done using the CS3X.

If you are referring to the Yamaha presence channels for height channels to create a more spacial front stage you would need a Yamaha receiver or preamp that can do the presence channels.

In my case I dug my old Yamaha DSP-1 out of storage and will use it this weekend to experiment with as it does presence among others.
Socio is offline  
post #23 of 63 Old 01-25-2008, 03:43 PM
Member
 
Import racer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 34
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hi i was reffering to the front axis channels as i have some identical floorstanders on there way, i was going to change the rears for them, but may experiment with the fronts, and see how it sounds.

I use 3 kef q95 centres horizontally at present which gives a nice spread of sound, so not sure i can fit the extras in or need them, but worth a try.

I have 3 amps capable of the front presence channels, but i use the Z9 for them via an arcam amp and a dsp A1 for the extra rears via the rear out of the Z9, so not sure how to wire the extra fronts in with out also breaking out old kit a dsp1000 processor, which could run the front axis pair via two spare channels on a power amp.

Does the cs3x have any adjustable delay or are all 4 fronts run with the same split front signal ?
Import racer is offline  
post #24 of 63 Old 01-25-2008, 05:29 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Socio's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 2,255
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Import racer View Post

Does the cs3x have any adjustable delay or are all 4 fronts run with the same split front signal ?

The front side axis channels are a split between left front and left side surround and right front and right side surround.

You need one CS3X for the left front and left side surround input to get left front side axis output via the SP1 out and a second CS3X for the right front and right side surround input to get the right front side axis output via it's SP1 out. You also can get left overhead from the SP2 output on the first CS3X and right overhead from SP2 output on that second CS3X.

Here is how I wired it;

On the CS3X for the left front side axis you would run the left front out to the left front in on the CS3X and left side surround out to the right front in on CS3X.

For the right front side axis run the right front out to the right front in on the second CS3X and the right side surround out to the left front in on the CS



Also there isn't an adjustable delay nor is it necessary the CS3X grabs and produces the sound in between the fronts and sides for the axis channels on its own and does it quite well.
Socio is offline  
post #25 of 63 Old 01-26-2008, 05:53 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Socio's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 2,255
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBLsound4645 View Post

I think home or cinema should go to the extreme, but I’ve heard that there’s a good sound system at Disney, I might be wrong.

What about 9 channel screen sound with sounds that can be moved in three directions from the left. Below middle and above, same goes with centre and right channel.

The same again with the surrounds below middle and above, I think the application for something like this would create a nightmare for sound mixers; I mean they’ll be working literally around clock to create the best mix presented by all these channels. LOL 17.1 now that’s insane, but doable.

I heard about another setup last night; I know people here in the past have duplicated 5.1-7.1 by splitting outs between two amps something like the OP in this thread is talking about. Where they will have the first set of L,R,C SR, SL, RR, and RL speakers placed at ear level and the second set raised high on the wall directly above the first set angled down toward the listening area and each upper and lower set calibrated to match giving you a bigger more spacious sound stage.

Now the setup I was told about last night was also a duplicated 7.1 setup but instead of raising the second set up high you use a full range wedge type speakers with passive woofers something like this for the second set and place them on the ground angled up toward the listener directly below the first set which are either on the walls or stands at ear level or slightly above angled down.

I find this very intriguing for a couple reasons; One it gives you full range at all speaker locations without the need of additional subs or bass management unit. And two if what I was told is true it adds more to the immersion than raising them high because you are sitting inside your surround sound field.

One of the examples I was given when using this setup along with some tactile transducers like Bass Shakers was the Pod race in Star Wars, it is apparently like the next best thing to being in the Pod it self.

I think somewhere along the line I am going to have to get a pair of wedge type speakers just to test them out and see what kind of difference they really do make if I match them to a pair of satellites raised to ear level.
Socio is offline  
post #26 of 63 Old 01-26-2008, 06:11 AM
 
JBLsound4645's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Bournemouth, Dorset, United Kingdom
Posts: 5,409
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I've just started to eat. You mentioned the infamous (pod race) I bet that has many bumps and jolts, hmm, too cold needs to be nuked again.

Wasn't there a simulator thingy that is placed near too the, feet rests of sofa, that provides jolts on every corner?
JBLsound4645 is offline  
post #27 of 63 Old 01-26-2008, 06:39 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Socio's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 2,255
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBLsound4645 View Post

I've just started to eat. You mentioned the infamous (pod race) I bet that has many bumps and jolts, hmm, too cold needs to be nuked again.

Wasn't there a simulator thingy that is placed near too the, feet rests of sofa, that provides jolts on every corner?

Yes Crowson makes something like that: Crowson Technology
Socio is offline  
post #28 of 63 Old 01-26-2008, 06:50 AM
 
JBLsound4645's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Bournemouth, Dorset, United Kingdom
Posts: 5,409
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Socio View Post

Yes Crowson makes something like that: Crowson Technology

Yeah that will provide a lot of motion without the need of excessive amounts of SPL db ringing in you're ears! I doubt it's affordable, I mean down to the £100 or £200 pound mark for each device, or does it come in one whole package, straight out of the box.

Bass Impact without Hearing Loss


Are you or is someone you know a "bass junkie?"

Most everyone knows at least one bass junkie. That is, someone who revels in sound pressure levels others may find annoying. Home theater retailers share horror stories about customers that ignore safety warnings to crank up subwoofers past recommended listening levels. These customers are demanding more physical involvement but seeking it in the wrong place.

Custom installers charge good money to calibrate sound systems, only to find that customers bypassing the settings to get a little extra oomph out of their subs. Unfortunately, this often annoys neighbors, wakes babies, muddies sound fields, and is actually dangerous to a family's hearing.



Using a subwoofer alone to create intense physical involvement is potentially hazardous to the human eardrum.

Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) guidelines require that workers exposed to 85 decibels (over an 8hr average) use hearing protection. Levels above 115 decibels should be completely avoided and can cause instant and permanent hearing damage.

As you can see, a subway train registers around 90 dB in the real world. Trying to reproduce the feeling of this train with speakers alone can easily surpass 110 decibels. At only 110 decibels over short periods, you may already be causing irreparable damage (and probably annoying your neighbors and/or spouse!)



One thing that alerted my attention was the underground tube train, I've been on a few at London when visiting, and thou I had my SPL db metre with me, the last time I was there which was, Thursday July 26th 2007. The loudness is loud, in those hollow sounding tubes and the warm air moving down the tube, with musty dry smell that says London.

As for Die Another Day (2002) the scene where the Q2 or R, what ever I prefer the original. The depth is laboriously loud on the ear, its down to around 25Hz, I think I've had this playing in the past at just around 105dbc to 107dbc too damn loud I would say. It thunders over the LCR and LFE.1.







JBLsound4645 is offline  
post #29 of 63 Old 01-26-2008, 07:30 AM
 
JBLsound4645's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Bournemouth, Dorset, United Kingdom
Posts: 5,409
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Whoa that’s a modest price, I was kinder expecting this to be a lot of dosh, somewhere in the few grand area, well that makes a difference, I’ll keep my eye on this product, cheers for that link, mate.

http://www.absolute-audio.eu/acatalo...s_crowson.html

I’m letting home cinema warm up with some Madonna, has it hasn’t been used in two days. Also I’m giving this product Crowson Technology a bit of thought…I like to try out Die Another Day in short jiffy.

I have a concrete floor that I plan to make into a wooden MDF type around summertime, and if I can manage a bit more saving, and buy one of there affordable starting packs, and place them onto the new MDF flooring and maybe a few under the sofa.

You need to feel a slight motion when standing say, behind the sofa.
JBLsound4645 is offline  
post #30 of 63 Old 01-26-2008, 09:15 AM
Member
 
Import racer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 34
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Socio View Post

The front side axis channels are a split between left front and left side surround and right front and right side surround.

You need one CS3X for the left front and left side surround input to get left front side axis output via the SP1 out and a second CS3X for the right front and right side surround input to get the right front side axis output via it's SP1 out. You also can get left overhead from the SP2 output on the first CS3X and right overhead from SP2 output on that second CS3X.

Here is how I wired it;

On the CS3X for the left front side axis you would run the left front out to the left front in on the CS3X and left side surround out to the right front in on CS3X.

For the right front side axis run the right front out to the right front in on the second CS3X and the right side surround out to the left front in on the CS



Also there isn't an adjustable delay nor is it necessary the CS3X grabs and produces the sound in between the fronts and sides for the axis channels on its own and does it quite well.


Thanks for the info , i'll perhaps try and find some cs3x on e-bay sometime there dont seem to be any at the minute.
Import racer is offline  
Reply Audio theory, Setup and Chat

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off