3D Television - Fad or Here To Stay? - Page 51 - AVS Forum
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post #1501 of 2615 Old 11-08-2010, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post

Thanks Nick for the update and welcome to the Forum!!

You may have read that I have already purchased a Samsung Plasma..58C8000
Had I been paying the regular "sale" prices I would have done like I did the last time
Ponder back and forth over the Samsung and Panasonic competing models...endlessly comparing performance to price ratio
What I did this time was verify what I thought was maybe a $150-200 difference..to my eyes...to the Panasonic favor
HOWEVER I was bale to buy the Samsung for about $1000 off its "sale" price. I didn't receive the free glasses or blu ray...so there is some worth there
But needless to say..I had to pull the trigger
Anyway..TV arrived today via freight carrier...I might be in serious "like" of this Tv right off the bat
Its a better TV...2D wise than my 2007 model in every way


That being said..your answers
#3. Inst that the configuration that is the most common for home theaters?
I have a THX ultra speaker system with Dipole surrounds. The front L,R and Rear L,R are on stands. The center channel is mounted directly below( 6 inches) my TV on a shelf inside the entertainment center
My system requires two subs for the THX SPL level...one is in the front corner next to the right front channel. The other one is behind the couch directly in front of the TV's main viewing area

so....back on subject....was that what you meant by optimized placement of speakers?

#4.I had heard about the small and expensive Toshiba displays as well
While I think they could get a premium for a TV, of the same size and viewing quality...that restriction is size makes it a no go
I had not heard about a 3D projector...but makes perfect sense for that crowd that has the dedicated theater room in their homes


Warren

Hi Warren!

Thanks for your reply.

Honestly, I havn't read the entire thread yet! I hope that you like your Samsung - if you have an ISF or THX Video calibrator in your area and want to get the most out of your TV - hire them and enjoy!

Regarding speaker placement - I am talking about THX Certified Screening Room / large Home Theatre speaker placement and system optimization. Your speakers were certified by THX because they meet THX speaker specifications, not the THX Screening Room / Home Theatre Specifications. THX Screening Room specifications are room and equipment oriented.

I am a bit of a rare breed - I do not sell A/V equipment. I'm an acoustician / home theatre designer / equipment specifier and I focus on the room, creating optimal acoustics and lighting conditions to maximize equipment performance with my clients budget in mind, so they can get the most out of their home theatre investment and their equipment can perform at optimal levels, as the directors and creative content makers intended you to experience their art. Over the years I have seen many fantastic salespeople sell thousands to hundreds of thousands of dollars of audio, video and automation equipment to clients for their home theatres, leaving no money in the budget for acoustics, sound control, HVAC system, lighting, furniture etc. Not even a calibration! In home theatre - it's a bigger picture than 120" Don't blow all your money on one item - understand that the colour and type / shape of your walls, ceilings and floors are also very important. So is your wife... a happy life is a happy wife! If you have a room thats all yours - go for it! If not - enjoy what you have because life is too short to get all worked up over all the little details.

Cheers!

Nick
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post #1502 of 2615 Old 11-08-2010, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Dubin View Post

HI Nick,

Agree with you about speaker placement - that's also how THX recommends them to be.

Since our living room set is the Sony KD34XBR960, we're able to place the magnetically shielded center speaker on the top, recessed a few inches back, so it is kind of "behind" that screen. In our den, we also have the second speaker behind the LCD - we had room enough on the furniture to simply stack a series of old "Reader's Digest Condensed" books which were all the same size and shape, drape them over with a nice old curtain we had in storage and put the center speaker on top (guess you could call me cheap for not simply buying a speaker stand LOL). So that too is behind the screen.

Since you seem to know about audio - a question too. We have 6.1 in the living room and our rear center speaker is on the wall where our sofa is (parallel in height with the other two rear speakers and an inch or so further back) so it cannot be further back from the seating position as recommended. Since it just about on top of us, should it remain level or be tilted downward a bit? Or, would doing that take away from it's blending in with the other five speakers.

And again , welcome to the group. Warren now has an ally for his take on the consumer aspect .

Thanks so much for the advice,
Joe

Hi Joe,

Thank you for your comment.

There is nothing wrong with being innovative and resourceful!

Your rear speakers are designed to create 'phantom sounds' and you shouldn't be able to hear and localize where the phantom sounds come from. I think you hit the nail on the head when you said your seating position is too close to the wall. Unless your sitting in the optimum position - there isn't a lot that you can do. Is the center channel direct firing? Bipole or dipole? Dipole speakers (out-of-phase) are usually preffered - however, if you are sitting close to the wall / speaker, try a bipole (in-phase) speaker - you may find that the phantom imaging improves, as you output sound in both directions along the rear wall, it reflects back and should improve the surround sound effect. Consider picking up a surround speaker that can be swithed to Bipole or Dipole and try both settings out to see which one works best. You can always take the speaker back if you are unsatisfied with it.

Cheers!
Nick
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post #1503 of 2615 Old 11-08-2010, 06:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick - THX PRO View Post

Hi Joe,

Thank you for your comment.

There is nothing wrong with being innovative and resourceful!

Your rear speakers are designed to create 'phantom sounds' and you shouldn't be able to hear and localize where the phantom sounds come from. I think you hit the nail on the head when you said your seating position is too close to the wall. Unless your sitting in the optimum position - there isn't a lot that you can do. Is the center channel direct firing? Bipole or dipole? Dipole speakers (out-of-phase) are usually preffered - however, if you are sitting close to the wall / speaker, try a bipole (in-phase) speaker - you may find that the phantom imaging improves, as you output sound in both directions along the rear wall, it reflects back and should improve the surround sound effect. Consider picking up a surround speaker that can be swithed to Bipole or Dipole and try both settings out to see which one works best. You can always take the speaker back if you are unsatisfied with it.

Cheers!
Nick

Hi Nick,

You're quickly becoming this forum's resident guru

It's a regular, bookshelf audio speaker that I had - a two-way Dynaco. Used my Yamaha's built in rear-center speaker equalizer to get the "blue" tone to match the other speakers as best as possible. Since I purchased it decades ago I don't think I can get a refund anymore.

As soon as I set up that sixth speaker I felt enveloped in a much more fuller sound. So it's not so much an effect sounding as if it comes directly from the rear center speaker but rather the added, overall sense of presence that one gets. I also notice that audio for that sixth channel appears to come from a speaker much wider (the wires are in-phase) and even audio from the left and right rear sounds like it's comes from speakers much larger than it did when I was just 5.1. So considering the set-up limitations, I'm glad I am hearing the effect correctly - thought I should hear sound more centralized from the rear like when doing the audio balance which I now know is wrong.

So thanks for the reassurance.

Ciao,
Joe
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post #1504 of 2615 Old 11-08-2010, 06:45 PM
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3D HDTV got rushed into the market too soon, without perfecting it, first. We're still waiting for HD broadcast to be the gold standard for television - more so, in 1080p. 3D technology for HTs can wait.
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post #1505 of 2615 Old 11-09-2010, 04:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Joseph Dubin View Post

Hi Warren,

Thanks for stopping at four in a row to keep my record alive .

Glad everything is working out well with your new set Do you have any idea of how long it was a floor model? Finding out the month it was manufactured would at least give you an idea of the maximum amount of time.

Of course, what we're all really interested in is the 3D effect. Does it also have the capability of converting standard 2D into 3D? Know that some sets have it and the effect provides limited results at best but still, that would be fun. As mentioned, very content with both sets we have (especially the KD34XBR960) so 3D won't become part of our household for quite a while.

Well put words regarding those certain, other comments.

Joe

April 2010 is the manufacture date of the TV
Just like every other Samsung flat panel I have seen in the last 2-3 years it was made in Mexico
I don't think the manufacture date gives me a true idea of how much time is on the TV...as it could have been in warehouse in a box for a while as well
There is probably a "service" menu that I could access. If I get bored one day I might look at the Samsung thread..as I am sure someone there has tried to do it for that very reason
The new TV is rated at 100K hours vs the older one at 60K hours
Clearly before that time is anywhere close, if its accurate, both TV's would be dinosaurs in today's current fast paced technology marketplace
As for 2D to 3D conversion...I looked at that once in a store. I have to say initial reaction, to me, was unimpressive
I really doubt I will be doing much of that
However..let me say this...typically speaking I don't care for "modified" video or audio signals by home equipment
Whether it be simulated surround from a broadcast stereo program..or even 1080P upconversion from a non 1080P source
Bottom line..it never looks as good or real as the real thing...so for the most part I forgo
As I mentioned before I turn off the video upconversion in my preamp( and receivers) and set it to through mode...though I have heard there is still a small amount of video processing going on with the Onkyo units even in the "through"mode
95% of what I watch is either HD programming or blu ray movies. I would like to see and hear both as they are broadcast or originally formatted.


Warren

Rm 1 Samsung 64F8500 Onkyo 5508 prepro Sherbourn 5/1500A amp Atlantic technology System 350 THX Ultra speakers
Rm 2 LG 47LE8500 Pioneer SC37 Celestion 305 speaker system
Rm 3 Samsung 51E8000 Yamaha A2010 Kef 2005.2 speaker system
Rm 4 Panasonic 50ST50 Onkyo 5009/906 Mirage Omni sat speaker system
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post #1506 of 2615 Old 11-09-2010, 04:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by extremum View Post

3D HDTV got rushed into the market too soon, without perfecting it, first. We're still waiting for HD broadcast to be the gold standard for television - more so, in 1080p. 3D technology for HTs can wait.


I am not sure I agree with that. I will say the available media has not kept up.
But this is no different that other times...as I recall 2 years ago it was said they would be broadcasting 1080P...at least on the Satellite channels
The only thing you can get in 1080P is PPV

On another note...if you want a great 2D picture....that you can only get from one of the higher end sets at the top of the manufacturers line up

What are you going to buy?
You have no choice..you get 3D with one of these sets..regardless if you ever use it or not

Warren

Rm 1 Samsung 64F8500 Onkyo 5508 prepro Sherbourn 5/1500A amp Atlantic technology System 350 THX Ultra speakers
Rm 2 LG 47LE8500 Pioneer SC37 Celestion 305 speaker system
Rm 3 Samsung 51E8000 Yamaha A2010 Kef 2005.2 speaker system
Rm 4 Panasonic 50ST50 Onkyo 5009/906 Mirage Omni sat speaker system
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post #1507 of 2615 Old 11-09-2010, 04:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick - THX PRO View Post

Hi Joe,

Thank you for your comment.

There is nothing wrong with being innovative and resourceful!

Your rear speakers are designed to create 'phantom sounds' and you shouldn't be able to hear and localize where the phantom sounds come from. I think you hit the nail on the head when you said your seating position is too close to the wall. Unless your sitting in the optimum position - there isn't a lot that you can do. Is the center channel direct firing? Bipole or dipole? Dipole speakers (out-of-phase) are usually preffered - however, if you are sitting close to the wall / speaker, try a bipole (in-phase) speaker - you may find that the phantom imaging improves, as you output sound in both directions along the rear wall, it reflects back and should improve the surround sound effect. Consider picking up a surround speaker that can be swithed to Bipole or Dipole and try both settings out to see which one works best. You can always take the speaker back if you are unsatisfied with it.

Cheers!
Nick

Nick

would this situation not be solved by some of the room correction technology...such as Audessey?
In my family room my couch is very near the wall...in fact just enough room to have the second subwoofer placed behind it
I took the set up microphone and placed it at different points in the room.
The set up makes the unit sound great as it took into account distances,SPL capability etc

Warren

Rm 1 Samsung 64F8500 Onkyo 5508 prepro Sherbourn 5/1500A amp Atlantic technology System 350 THX Ultra speakers
Rm 2 LG 47LE8500 Pioneer SC37 Celestion 305 speaker system
Rm 3 Samsung 51E8000 Yamaha A2010 Kef 2005.2 speaker system
Rm 4 Panasonic 50ST50 Onkyo 5009/906 Mirage Omni sat speaker system
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post #1508 of 2615 Old 11-09-2010, 04:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Nick - THX PRO View Post

Hi Warren!

Thanks for your reply.

Honestly, I havn't read the entire thread yet! I hope that you like your Samsung - if you have an ISF or THX Video calibrator in your area and want to get the most out of your TV - hire them and enjoy!

Regarding speaker placement - I am talking about THX Certified Screening Room / large Home Theatre speaker placement and system optimization. Your speakers were certified by THX because they meet THX speaker specifications, not the THX Screening Room / Home Theatre Specifications. THX Screening Room specifications are room and equipment oriented.

I am a bit of a rare breed - I do not sell A/V equipment. I'm an acoustician / home theatre designer / equipment specifier and I focus on the room, creating optimal acoustics and lighting conditions to maximize equipment performance with my clients budget in mind, so they can get the most out of their home theatre investment and their equipment can perform at optimal levels, as the directors and creative content makers intended you to experience their art. Over the years I have seen many fantastic salespeople sell thousands to hundreds of thousands of dollars of audio, video and automation equipment to clients for their home theatres, leaving no money in the budget for acoustics, sound control, HVAC system, lighting, furniture etc. Not even a calibration! In home theatre - it's a bigger picture than 120" Don't blow all your money on one item - understand that the colour and type / shape of your walls, ceilings and floors are also very important. So is your wife... a happy life is a happy wife! If you have a room thats all yours - go for it! If not - enjoy what you have because life is too short to get all worked up over all the little details.

Cheers!

Nick

Nick

All my home theater components are THX ultra certified...except my amp..a Sherbourn 5/1500A(200x5)...though I am certain it would have passed if Sherbourn had decided to pay the fees that go with the item holding that logo

I don't have the capability to do the room treatments etc..because this is used as a family room as well..and I do not have a dedicated HT only area in my home...though I wish I did

As for splitting the finances up...I am on board with that...I mentioned before in this thread that I am 50% sound/50% video....so in an effort to equalize I have downgraded in the past....for instance almost 3 years ago I bought the Samsung plasma TV rather than Pioneer Kuro. The Kuro was clearly a better TV..but I needed that $1500 savings to go into audio equipment

By the way...are you a neighbor from the North..A Canadian?
I see your spelling of "colour"....where those of us "south" of the border use "color"


Warren

Rm 1 Samsung 64F8500 Onkyo 5508 prepro Sherbourn 5/1500A amp Atlantic technology System 350 THX Ultra speakers
Rm 2 LG 47LE8500 Pioneer SC37 Celestion 305 speaker system
Rm 3 Samsung 51E8000 Yamaha A2010 Kef 2005.2 speaker system
Rm 4 Panasonic 50ST50 Onkyo 5009/906 Mirage Omni sat speaker system
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post #1509 of 2615 Old 11-09-2010, 06:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post

April 2010 is the manufacture date of the TV
Just like every other Samsung flat panel I have seen in the last 2-3 years it was made in Mexico
I don't think the manufacture date gives me a true idea of how much time is on the TV...as it could have been in warehouse in a box for a while as well
There is probably a "service" menu that I could access. If I get bored one day I might look at the Samsung thread..as I am sure someone there has tried to do it for that very reason
The new TV is rated at 100K hours vs the older one at 60K hours
Clearly before that time is anywhere close, if its accurate, both TV's would be dinosaurs in today's current fast paced technology marketplace
As for 2D to 3D conversion...I looked at that once in a store. I have to say initial reaction, to me, was unimpressive
I really doubt I will be doing much of that
However..let me say this...typically speaking I don't care for "modified" video or audio signals by home equipment
Whether it be simulated surround from a broadcast stereo program..or even 1080P upconversion from a non 1080P source
Bottom line..it never looks as good or real as the real thing...so for the most part I forgo
As I mentioned before I turn off the video upconversion in my preamp( and receivers) and set it to through mode...though I have heard there is still a small amount of video processing going on with the Onkyo units even in the "through"mode
95% of what I watch is either HD programming or blu ray movies. I would like to see and hear both as they are broadcast or originally formatted.


Warren

HI Warren,

Then it could have been used as a display for six months, which if it was on maybe ten hours a day (like I suspect) that still only translates in 1,800 hours of use and plenty of time before it reaches half life. Get them glasses and blurays so we know how you like the 3D!

BTW - you've now twice come close to tying my record of five consecutive posts.
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post #1510 of 2615 Old 11-09-2010, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Dubin View Post

HI Warren,

Then it could have been used as a display for six months, which if it was on maybe ten hours a day (like I suspect) that still only translates in 1,800 hours of use and plenty of time before it reaches half life. Get them glasses and blurays so we know how you like the 3D!

BTW - you've now twice come close to tying my record of five consecutive posts.

Could be..I am not sure. Though based on the dust on the box it has been sitting somewhere for a while. Some of this could have been the freight company's...though they only had it for 5 days. This box looked like a box that had been sealed for more than 2 months in warehouse..based on the way the dust/dirt was aligned with the plastic straps that sealed the box closed
The TV still has that "new" smell when you get up close to
Due to the heat in the display process of plasma you can still some of this at a distance when the Tv is on for more than 15 mins
Other than the batteries already in the remote I could not tell the box had ever been opened. Every piece of tape, tissue and film covering the Tv was in place and appeared, to me, to have never been moved.
The serial number on the box matched the serial number on the TV ...minus the one last character, found only on the back of the TV, the way Samsung always does it

My old TV...Plasma technology as well...had been a display also...based on the estimated hours as I mentioned before...60K and 100K( old and new) respectively..I am certain there is no concern in regard to longevity.
Though no real average longevity numbers....LCD or Plasma...are posted anywhere that I can find
But again, like I said before, it will likely last a lot longer than it will take it to achieve dinosaur status.

At the rate they are going they will have 3D, 1440P TV's, 1000hz, 65 in TV's that weigh 75# and have installed computers w/ hard drives,cell phone connectivity and blue tooth enabled for wireless printing in the next 5 years for $1500...along with a new sound format
Though..like now will there be any programming to match their capability?


Warren

Rm 1 Samsung 64F8500 Onkyo 5508 prepro Sherbourn 5/1500A amp Atlantic technology System 350 THX Ultra speakers
Rm 2 LG 47LE8500 Pioneer SC37 Celestion 305 speaker system
Rm 3 Samsung 51E8000 Yamaha A2010 Kef 2005.2 speaker system
Rm 4 Panasonic 50ST50 Onkyo 5009/906 Mirage Omni sat speaker system
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post #1511 of 2615 Old 11-09-2010, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post

Could be..I am not sure. Though based on the dust on the box it has been sitting somewhere for a while. Some of this could have been the freight company's...though they only had it for 5 days. This box looked like a box that had been sealed for more than 2 months in warehouse..based on the way the dust/dirt was aligned with the plastic straps that sealed the box closed
The TV still has that "new" smell when you get up close to
Due to the heat in the display process of plasma you can still some of this at a distance when the Tv is on for more than 15 mins
Other than the batteries already in the remote I could not tell the box had ever been opened. Every piece of tape, tissue and film covering the Tv was in place and appeared, to me, to have never been moved.
The serial number on the box matched the serial number on the TV ...minus the one last character, found only on the back of the TV, the way Samsung always does it

My old TV...Plasma technology as well...had been a display also...based on the estimated hours as I mentioned before...60K and 100K( old and new) respectively..I am certain there is no concern in regard to longevity.
Though no real average longevity numbers....LCD or Plasma...are posted anywhere that I can find
But again, like I said before, it will likely last a lot longer than it will take it to achieve dinosaur status.

At the rate they are going they will have 3D, 1440P TV's, 1000hz, 65 in TV's that weigh 75# and have installed computers w/ hard drives,cell phone connectivity and blue tooth enabled for wireless printing in the next 5 years for $1500...along with a new sound format
Though..like now will there be any programming to match their capability?


Warren

Hi Warren,

Sounds as if it hasn't been used as much as possibly thought. Did you happen to notice how long the floor model had been available for sale? Figure it had to be removed from the shelves and packaged before that time.

Always contended that higher than 1080p would be of tremendous benefit for the really large sets since the lines of resolution become less dense as they screen becomes bigger and, in turn, the lines become more dense as the screen becomes smaller.

Know this is off-subject but we were talking about bluray players with built in web-access in lieu of the logitech. From what I see of those less expensive ones, they have built-in apps for streaming of video but not internet surfing as the Revue does. Is that the case with those players in general?

Joe
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post #1512 of 2615 Old 11-09-2010, 10:23 AM
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Joe

I missed a word in my last post and you may have comprehended anyway
What I meant to say was that due to the heat generated in the plasma display process I could smell the "new" smell coming off the TV after it had been on for 15 mins
To answer your question;
I didn't notice how long the TV had been around...with the company I purchased from you never know. They offer it on their website...they have new items as well as an online clearance center. They don't have the serial numbers posted on the items in the clearance center and there is just a stock photo along with the manufacturers specs. There also is a worded description of the item that says anything from returned open box item to scuffs on bottom to missing original box etc.or original box in poor condition etc. I have seen the gamut run A-Z
They mark the items down about every week to 10 days or so( to a certain floor...though I have seen items I am certain they were selling at a loss)...first come first buy. I feel like the remote I purchased at 70% off retail was about at the fllor as it had been the same price for 3 weeks. I have purchased about 10 items in the last 2 years...never anything like this Tv though...and have never been disappointed. I have gotten some very good deals on some high end pieces.
Some things go for firesale pricing..others..IMO..people over pay for
The price the items start out in the clearance center is lower than MSRP..but sometimes its the same as the regular sale price is. So you need to be an educated consumer
The only thing ( other than OTA TV) I have looked is connecting the new TV to an old Panasonic progressive scan DVD recorder that's been stored for about 3-4 years.
I have to say the picture was NOT impressive. I put in a standard DVD last night..close up images are good...but at a distance it is fuzzy,lacks sharpness, is blurry and color reproduction looked blah..not nearly as sharp as HD programming
OTA programming I watched last night..both 720P and 1080I was beautiful
I watched some of the The Office last night and I feel like the picture was so sharp I could every strand of hair individually on the characters heads

In regard to blu ray player streaming...there is none to my knowledge that does the all that the Logitech revue would...however you can buy one of those players 1/3 of the price of the revue
The Samsung RMC30C2 remote I purchased for 70% off the $299 retail price.....will do about the same thing the Logitech revue will. The discount was really the only reason I bought it...and frankly after the initial "wow that's cool" session I wonder if I will ever use it. I didn't pay much for it...but in regard to usefulness I wonder if that great buy was such a great buy
Though I did see how you could link a Samsung cell phone to the remote and your TV to send files back and forth etc and interact all with your home network
Though again....will I ever use those features?

Warren

Rm 1 Samsung 64F8500 Onkyo 5508 prepro Sherbourn 5/1500A amp Atlantic technology System 350 THX Ultra speakers
Rm 2 LG 47LE8500 Pioneer SC37 Celestion 305 speaker system
Rm 3 Samsung 51E8000 Yamaha A2010 Kef 2005.2 speaker system
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post #1513 of 2615 Old 11-09-2010, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post

Nick

would this situation not be solved by some of the room correction technology...such as Audessey?
In my family room my couch is very near the wall...in fact just enough room to have the second subwoofer placed behind it
I took the set up microphone and placed it at different points in the room.
The set up makes the unit sound great as it took into account distances,SPL capability etc

Warren

Hi Warren

Yes - Audessey and other forms of room correction can help. more often than not, the problem exists in the room's shape, design and acoustics.

I still prefer to use a sound level meter and a laser to set everything up. I was thinking that Joe could play with the side surround speaker volume levels, I was thinking he could raise them a foot or two higher and increase the volume slightly higher than the center surround spkr. for a better sound array effect.

Nick
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post #1514 of 2615 Old 11-09-2010, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post

Nick

All my home theater components are THX ultra certified...except my amp..a Sherbourn 5/1500A(200x5)...though I am certain it would have passed if Sherbourn had decided to pay the fees that go with the item holding that logo

I don't have the capability to do the room treatments etc..because this is used as a family room as well..and I do not have a dedicated HT only area in my home...though I wish I did

As for splitting the finances up...I am on board with that...I mentioned before in this thread that I am 50% sound/50% video....so in an effort to equalize I have downgraded in the past....for instance almost 3 years ago I bought the Samsung plasma TV rather than Pioneer Kuro. The Kuro was clearly a better TV..but I needed that $1500 savings to go into audio equipment

By the way...are you a neighbor from the North..A Canadian?
I see your spelling of "colour"....where those of us "south" of the border use "color"


Warren

Yes! I am Canadian. I try not to drop too many 'Eh's to remove all doubt
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post #1515 of 2615 Old 11-09-2010, 12:30 PM
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Hi Warren,

Since those bluray players do not provide full internet access, purchasing one would not have served my purpose. Since they do include Netflix apps, would you be streaming some 3D films instead of having to purchase them? Or would there be too many pauses, etc. from the HD streaming?

Regarding the up converted DVDs, did they appear as bad on your other Samsung? From what you've told me I would be concerned about the future of my own DVD-R collection. These up converted recordings look very impressive on the CRT in our living room (again about an eight out of ten compared to the original HD broadcast - with black and whites being just about equal) yet can only be played back at 480p in the den's LCD (otherwise they are distorted). But upconverted commercial DVDs look GREAT on the LCD but maybe that is because it's only 32 inches. I have seen upconverted films displayed on larger LCDs at Best Buy (can tell because they were connected to DVD players, not blurays) and they looked quite good but, in all honesty, a little too soft for my own pleasure (whether that was a problem due to up conversion or the way the set was adjusted I of course don't know). Again, just like CRT can handle the virtual 3D converter, the same can hold true for up converted material.

I saw that Starz was going to present Tim Burton's "Alice In Wonderland" so went to IMDB to see if it was any good. Besides the users, Roger Ebert liked it very much, however, the following in his review that caught my eye:

"Burton is above all a brilliant visual artist, and his film is a pleasure to regard; I look
forward to admiring it in 2-D, where it will look brighter and more colorful. No artist
who can create these images is enhancing them in any way by adding the annoying
third dimension."

Of course, that is only one critic's opinion but having not exerienced 3D myself, from just about all that I've read from others is that films do appear darker with colors less vibrant as the 2D counterpart. Again, this is not my opinion, just from all I've read. I think a lot of viewers said the same about "Coroline" (great animation) being artisticly more beautiful in 2D while the effects were more exciting in 3D.

So far it seems in order to have 3D, one has to give up something as well. As you've pointed out, the technology is still new but I wonder if the industry was wise in releasing sets with the technology being only in this stage because of the mixed feedback it's getting. Perhaps had they waited a few years and got it where the colors were just as vibrant and bright as in 2D, 3D might have more appeal.

Just some thoughts - do you think the technology will improve (with or without glasses?) or will darkness and duller color always be an issue?

Ciao,
Joe
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post #1516 of 2615 Old 11-09-2010, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Nick - THX PRO View Post

Yes! I am Canadian. I try not to drop too many 'Eh's to remove all doubt

Hi Nick,

A lot of us south of the border spell it as "coulor" too, just to look impressive!
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post #1517 of 2615 Old 11-09-2010, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Joseph Dubin View Post

Hi Warren,

Since those bluray players do not provide full internet access, purchasing one would not have served my purpose. Since they do include Netflix apps, would you be streaming some 3D films instead of having to purchase them? Or would there be too many pauses, etc. from the HD streaming?

Regarding the up converted DVDs, did they appear as bad on your other Samsung? From what you've told me I would be concerned about the future of my own DVD-R collection. These up converted recordings look very impressive on the CRT in our living room (again about an eight out of ten compared to the original HD broadcast - with black and whites being just about equal) yet can only be played back at 480p in the den's LCD (otherwise they are distorted). But upconverted commercial DVDs look GREAT on the LCD but maybe that is because it's only 32 inches. I have seen upconverted films displayed on larger LCDs at Best Buy (can tell because they were connected to DVD players, not blurays) and they looked quite good but, in all honesty, a little too soft for my own pleasure (whether that was a problem due to up conversion or the way the set was adjusted I of course don't know). Again, just like CRT can handle the virtual 3D converter, the same can hold true for up converted material.

I saw that Starz was going to present Tim Burton's "Alice In Wonderland" so went to IMDB to see if it was any good. Besides the users, Roger Ebert liked it very much, however, the following in his review that caught my eye:

"Burton is above all a brilliant visual artist, and his film is a pleasure to regard; I look
forward to admiring it in 2-D, where it will look brighter and more colorful. No artist
who can create these images is enhancing them in any way by adding the annoying
third dimension."

Of course, that is only one critic's opinion but having not exerienced 3D myself, from just about all that I've read from others is that films do appear darker with colors less vibrant as the 2D counterpart. Again, this is not my opinion, just from all I've read. I think a lot of viewers said the same about "Coroline" (great animation) being artisticly more beautiful in 2D while the effects were more exciting in 3D.

So far it seems in order to have 3D, one has to give up something as well. As you've pointed out, the technology is still new but I wonder if the industry was wise in releasing sets with the technology being only in this stage because of the mixed feedback it's getting. Perhaps had they waited a few years and got it where the colors were just as vibrant and bright as in 2D, 3D might have more appeal.

Just some thoughts - do you think the technology will improve (with or without glasses?) or will darkness and duller color always be an issue?

Ciao,
Joe

I don't know what bandwith would be required to stream 3D vs 2D so I am not sure if Netflix( or Redbox as I hear they entering the streaming arena) will have available
By the way Joe...even though that meter on the Netflix indicator can indicate "HD quality" when the film is uploading and about to be shown...to my eyes it looks like standard DVD quality. Also Netflix streaming is only in stereo..not in surround. Some hard core blu ray/lossless audio officianados find this an issue..in other thread and therefore say they won't use the Netflix app
I do believe some of the others apps such as Cinema Now and Vudu( and several others I am sure) ...that charge per feature...will give you true 1080P and surround sound. But again..I don't think its the newer lossless sound formats. It is legacy Dolby Digital
Joe..you are correct in saying the streaming blu ray players do not offer you internet access...but honestly the apps are very close to the same...and again we are talking less than half the amount of money
The Samsung apps are incredible...and nearly every time I turn on the blu ray player it prompts me for an online update that adds another free app. There is also an online Samsung store where you can pay for apps as well

Again ..I have that remote coming with the internet service...It will amuse me for a month..after that it might be something that gets dusted more than used
I have home PC that will run circles around that remote

I have watched ESPN and a few excepts of Monsters vs Aliens and Coraline in 3D. I watched ESPN by far for the longest period of time...30 mins or so
The 2 movies..I think I looked at each one for 10 minutes
I didn't see the color difference you mention
In fact ..I was quite impressed...the ESPN soccer game was quite visually stunning and I happened to have watched it on the very TV that I just purchased

What do you have to give up to have 3D?

I didn't plug the progressive scan player into another TV..as I said that particular player has been stored for 3-4 years. If I thought I could get more than $10 for it on Ebay I would sell it
The Toshiba DVD recorder I have is the only standard DVD player that I have hooked up anymore..and as you know its upconversion capability is not stellar
Its definitely a sharper picture than the progressive scan Panny..however it introduces artifacts into the picture. That Toshiba is connected to a Samsung LED television in my bedroom

As I recall Joe..years ago when I had the Toshiba CRT HD television..though its HD quality was just ok...it did have decent SD performance..better than the DLP I had at the time. The DLP blew it out of the water on HD video though..as long as you didn't sit to the side of it..lol

As for my gauge on picture quality..generally speaking
Blu ray 10
Broadcast 720P/1080i 8.5
Upconverted DVD 6
Progressive Scan DVD 4.5

I actually should give Blu ray another 1 point spread from broadcast HD for the better sound as well

Joe you should get out and actually view the product you are commenting on
First hand experience tends to make a difference in perception

In regard to color..if its darker..then I guess LED is the way to go....there is nothing out there that has brighter colors than an LED television
Those are TV's that you put in a new home with walls of windows and still be able to enjoy a great presentation
I have spent quite a bit of time in the last week looking through the forum threads of owners who actually have 3D capable TV's...the darker color is something that I have not seen mentioned from any of the owners...as far as I have seen they only have one 3D television in the household...though there may be those that have more than one. But in any case..I would think they would mention what the 3D television looked like versus the others in their home if there was a marked difference in color


Warren

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post #1518 of 2615 Old 11-09-2010, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post
I don't know what bandwith would be required to stream 3D vs 2D so I am not sure if Netflix( or Redbox as I hear they entering the streaming arena) will have available
By the way Joe...even though that meter on the Netflix indicator can indicate "HD quality" when the film is uploading and about to be shown...to my eyes it looks like standard DVD quality. Also Netflix streaming is only in stereo..not in surround. Some hard core blu ray/lossless audio officianados find this an issue..in other thread and therefore say they won't use the Netflix app
I do believe some of the others apps such as Cinema Now and Vudu( and several others I am sure) ...that charge per feature...will give you true 1080P and surround sound. But again..I don't think its the newer lossless sound formats. It is legacy Dolby Digital
Joe..you are correct in saying the streaming blu ray players do not offer you internet access...but honestly the apps are very close to the same...and again we are talking less than half the amount of money
The Samsung apps are incredible...and nearly every time I turn on the blu ray player it prompts me for an online update that adds another free app. There is also an online Samsung store where you can pay for apps as well

Again ..I have that remote coming with the internet service...It will amuse me for a month..after that it might be something that gets dusted more than used
I have home PC that will run circles around that remote

I have watched ESPN and a few excepts of Monsters vs Aliens and Coraline in 3D. I watched ESPN by far for the longest period of time...30 mins or so
The 2 movies..I think I looked at each one for 10 minutes
I didn't see the color difference you mention
In fact ..I was quite impressed...the ESPN soccer game was quite visually stunning and I happened to have watched it on the very TV that I just purchased

What do you have to give up to have 3D?

I didn't plug the progressive scan player into another TV..as I said that particular player has been stored for 3-4 years. If I thought I could get more than $10 for it on Ebay I would sell it
The Toshiba DVD recorder I have is the only standard DVD player that I have hooked up anymore..and as you know its upconversion capability is not stellar
Its definitely a sharper picture than the progressive scan Panny..however it introduces artifacts into the picture. That Toshiba is connected to a Samsung LED television in my bedroom

As I recall Joe..years ago when I had the Toshiba CRT HD television..though its HD quality was just ok...it did have decent SD performance..better than the DLP I had at the time. The DLP blew it out of the water on HD video though..as long as you didn't sit to the side of it..lol

As for my gauge on picture quality..generally speaking
Blu ray 10
Broadcast 720P/1080i 8.5
Upconverted DVD 6
Progressive Scan DVD 4.5

I actually should give Blu ray another 1 point spread from broadcast HD for the better sound as well

Joe you should get out and actually view the product you are commenting on
First hand experience tends to make a difference in perception

In regard to color..if its darker..then I guess LED is the way to go....there is nothing out there that has brighter colors than an LED television
Those are TV's that you put in a new home with walls of windows and still be able to enjoy a great presentation
I have spent quite a bit of time in the last week looking through the forum threads of owners who actually have 3D capable TV's...the darker color is something that I have not seen mentioned from any of the owners...as far as I have seen they only have one 3D television in the household...though there may be those that have more than one. But in any case..I would think they would mention what the 3D television looked like versus the others in their home if there was a marked difference in color


Warren
Hi Warren,

The apps are nice to have but without full internet connectivity it would not be worth it for me, since I use a plug and play box which would mean I would have had to purchase the Revue no matter what. There is a big difference in just watching videos as it is able to do on-line banking, shopping email and web surfing (otherwise, how would you and I be able to have these conversations?

As far as HD content on the web, some appears better than others as you know doubt know. I have gone back and forth between 1080p and 480p a few times and definitely saw a difference, however, it could be more like up converted 480p instead of true HD. Just wasn't paying too much attention either way since it wasn't important.

As far as color and brightness, I was referring specifically to the so many posts and reviews from those who have seen both versions of "Coraline" and specifically Roger Ebert on "Alice In Wonderland" so I wasn't inferring it as a general rule for no doubt Avatar was great in 3D from everything I've read. Have you seen "Coraline" in both versions to compare?

As you said, I will have to see it for myself to come to my own conclusions. And that along with the glasses wouldn't even be issues if I wanted a new set and money was not a consideration - only the hesitancy to purchase something that might be a dinosaur technology wise in a few years would be. Of course, the reason I won't be jumping on the bandwagon soon is because I am in no need for a set and would not want to spend at least $1,299 for one and risk getting more headaches from my better half hitting me than those glasses . Don't know about the mainstream being afraid of their spouses but as you know, those other factors are why I don't see 3D being in 47 million households within the next three years.

We've debated those and other points in great detail. Come 2014 we will know.

Glad you got your 3D glasses. Do you think you still need to make further adjustments for the 3D picture since that is a new experience for you?

Ciao,
Joe
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post #1519 of 2615 Old 11-09-2010, 06:35 PM
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More bad news for 3D:

http://www.tvpredictions.com/3dsick110810.htm

8/30/2013 - Time Warner Liberation Day!
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post #1520 of 2615 Old 11-09-2010, 08:34 PM
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Could it be that consumers are just not interested? While cost seems to be more an issue than the glasses, what I don't see being asked of those in this and other studies is the next step - whether or not they actually would want to purchase a 3D set even if the prices did go down. Wouldn't that be the natural follow-up question to ask to determine if there was really true interest down the road?

Or maybe they have and that's why apps is the next new thing being hyped by the industry?

One trend that has retailers in Europe worried is that an average of just one pair of 3D glasses per 3D set is being sold, which has some thinking that those purchasing 3D sets are not interested in 3D but (as Warren has pointed out) want high-end 2D and can only get that by purchasing a 3D unit. I take that to mean that consumers of high-end video have to pay the extra cost of 3D in order to get the 2D that they want since there are no equivalent models produced minus the 3D feature. If that's the case, then I don't think the industry has anything to worry about since they're forcing videophiles to pay extra whether they want 3D or not.
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post #1521 of 2615 Old 11-10-2010, 03:42 AM
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These points from that article are scary

"There's about 8-10 percent of the population that can't see the 3D effect due to a lazy eye muscle; usually if the person is color blind or has any sort of lazy eye difficulty, they can't see the effect," said Bob Seidel, vice president of CBS' advanced technology and engineering.

Seidel added: "There is another percentage that can develop motion sickness or other motion-related issues, and then there are some that develop headaches. What percentage still requires further research, but it could be as high as 20 percent."


I guess I am very lucky since

1. I don't have a lazy eye muscle issue and am not color blind since I can see the 3D effect
2. I haven't gotten any motion sickness or motion related issues when I was watching

I would think a person with these issues would have a hard time with many things other than watching 3D..or any TV for that matter.
Having difficulty getting out of bed comes to mind.

That article reads like one of the pharmaceutical commercials with all the
disclaimers...I wonder if restless leg syndrome ,ADHD,dry eye syndrome,or chronic depression syndrome will have any affect on 3D television viewing as well?
This article just stated that 28-30% of the population is out of the running due to medical issues

Perhaps I should have called my doctor and had him run some tests before I bought the 3D TV?


Warren

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post #1522 of 2615 Old 11-10-2010, 04:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Joseph Dubin View Post

Hi Warren,

The apps are nice to have but without full internet connectivity it would not be worth it for me, since I use a plug and play box which would mean I would have had to purchase the Revue no matter what. There is a big difference in just watching videos as it is able to do on-line banking, shopping email and web surfing (otherwise, how would you and I be able to have these conversations?

As far as HD content on the web, some appears better than others as you know doubt know. I have gone back and forth between 1080p and 480p a few times and definitely saw a difference, however, it could be more like up converted 480p instead of true HD. Just wasn't paying too much attention either way since it wasn't important.

As far as color and brightness, I was referring specifically to the so many posts and reviews from those who have seen both versions of "Coraline" and specifically Roger Ebert on "Alice In Wonderland" so I wasn't inferring it as a general rule for no doubt Avatar was great in 3D from everything I've read. Have you seen "Coraline" in both versions to compare?

As you said, I will have to see it for myself to come to my own conclusions. And that along with the glasses wouldn't even be issues if I wanted a new set and money was not a consideration - only the hesitancy to purchase something that might be a dinosaur technology wise in a few years would be. Of course, the reason I won't be jumping on the bandwagon soon is because I am in no need for a set and would not want to spend at least $1,299 for one and risk getting more headaches from my better half hitting me than those glasses . Don't know about the mainstream being afraid of their spouses but as you know, those other factors are why I don't see 3D being in 47 million households within the next three years.

We've debated those and other points in great detail. Come 2014 we will know.

Glad you got your 3D glasses. Do you think you still need to make further adjustments for the 3D picture since that is a new experience for you?

Ciao,
Joe

Joe.
I didn't know that you had a true 1080P capable display?..how were you able to go back and forth between 1080P and 480P?
There are tests of these 3D capable sets( as well as what I still think are the reference units from last year) on CNET. They go through color...blk levels..adjust ability..calibration capabilities..etc

As I mentioned before you should see for your self and draw your own conclusions.There are hundreds of pages in this forum of 3D TV owners who bought when the first sets hit the stores. There is tons of detailed commentary from actual owners. Other than mentioning the lack of current content, they seem very happy though.ESPN adoption of 3D also seemed to jump start the buying process for many it seems.
There is also a lot of dissatisfaction with the fact that Avatar in 3D is being "held hostage" by Panasonic...meaning you have to buy a Panasonic 3D capable Tv to even get the movie..until the 2nd quarter of 2011
I would imagine if you could look at the archives of this thread when blu ray players were released you would see the same dissatisfaction of available media.

As for the 480P and 1080P conversation...again we are back to $500 vs $5000 couch.

I think that's very as I see in other threads where those that won't watch streamed Netflix for that very reason...while others think its quite good
That old pesky couch again

I can stand to watch it..even though its also 2.0 audio as well...but its just a convenience issue for me. I do think there is a huge difference in streamed Netflix and blu ray movie both in video and sound. There are 1080P streaming media available on a PPV basis..Cinema Now, Vudu etc. They don't have the newest surround formats though...just legacy Dolby sound formats
Funny how the couch rears its head again and again
By the way have you seen the posts of owner's of 3D capable TVs and both versions of Coraline in this forum?
If you have perused this forum for Coraline viewers you have no doubt seen the pricing that some have paid ..$150-200..for the 3D version as recently as this summer.
I have not seen both versions of Coraline...just the 3D...10 minutes of it in a store. Looked great to me. The guys in the 3D TV forums have not mentioned the difference either. It was mentioned there that Avatar actually looked very good using the 2D movie and setting the 2D to3D conversion setting on the TV.
I looked at a TV at the store with that setting on....off the cuff reaction was that I was not impressed. It looked more fake than anything else
As you know though, I am not a fan of manipulated audio or video signals..ie..upconverted 1080P or simulated surround...switchers in my A/V system etc
Neither meets my expectations or is even close to the real thing...and at varying levels of performance..mostly marginal to worse...as well

As for being a dinosaur..in my mind as fast as technology goes its like computers...its not like the old days of TV's 25 years ago when 5-7 years brought you no really appreciable difference...and the prices weren't falling then either
As I said before..if 3D fails...I have simply purchased a 2D television that is nicer( and was considerably less expensive) in every way than the old "dinosaur" that I have
Dinosaur in this case is in the owner's mind..case in point...the new sound formats along with the room correction technology that been around a few years now
Many would call audio components with those capabilities/options dinosaurs.
Case in point..in regard to dinosaurs...at least from a $$ standpoint and how fast the value falls.
I have recently seen a Panasonic 58" VT25 for $1275 and a Sony 52" XBR9 LCD for $1150..both store displays left over from last year
Those prices are about 55% off what you would have paid for a good "sale" price on either of those this time last year. Other than 3D they are great sets with beautiful pictures
Ditto with Audio...a Denon 4310 receiver ...seen them for $1099( new in box) and a an Onkyo 3007 ($759) new in box......$500-700 lower than you would have paid for them this time last year...again other than the new HDMI 1.4 capability they are both very nice( and high end ) receivers
Which brings me to the question...if 1 year old products that are "1" step behind are priced this low....if something is even older and another step(s) behind...what might it be worth?
That is why I say this industry is like computers

I am certain you could fine someone watching a old SD TV( with a converter box with an OTA antenna) connected to an older Dolby surround receiver that is perfectly excited/happy to use the same set up that is 15 years old...and might not be able to hear/see much difference in the newer technology
Heck they may even be watching that TV with a VCR...and have a 7 year old computer as well with the first Pentium processor

Again we are back to the $500 couch

By the way ..I don't have the 3D glasses yet..they are arriving Friday along with Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs
That "whizzbang" remote..lol..is arriving UPS today. That should amuse me for 30 days..maybe.
I am somewhat tempted to return that...even at the 70% off I purchased it for

What is the significance of 47 million people?..is that the amount that is supposed to make the format a success?
What is the significance of 2014?


Warren

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post #1523 of 2615 Old 11-10-2010, 06:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Dubin View Post

Could it be that consumers are just not interested? While cost seems to be more an issue than the glasses, what I don't see being asked of those in this and other studies is the next step - whether or not they actually would want to purchase a 3D set even if the prices did go down. Wouldn't that be the natural follow-up question to ask to determine if there was really true interest down the road?

Or maybe they have and that's why apps is the next new thing being hyped by the industry?

One trend that has retailers in Europe worried is that an average of just one pair of 3D glasses per 3D set is being sold, which has some thinking that those purchasing 3D sets are not interested in 3D but (as Warren has pointed out) want high-end 2D and can only get that by purchasing a 3D unit. I take that to mean that consumers of high-end video have to pay the extra cost of 3D in order to get the 2D that they want since there are no equivalent models produced minus the 3D feature. If that's the case, then I don't think the industry has anything to worry about since they're forcing videophiles to pay extra whether they want 3D or not.

Joe

You are making assumptions here as to what the extra cost..if any...there is for a manufacturer of a 3D set. How do you know it costs them anymore to manufacture compared to the same set without 3D
Though as you stated you get the best without buying 3D
As I have said before...case in point the difference among Samsung 32" LCD sets
You can't remove one function...such 1080P without losing something else that has a negative effect on picture quality.

As for the cost of the glasses..based on the bundles of glasses and Blu ray players..I really don't see that being an issue

I am not sure some of the other world markets are a litmus test to the US
They have home blu ray recorders in other parts of the world.
From what I understand they are no where close to getting them released in the US due to companies litigating over copyright protection.
Which on another note ..is why I understand Blu ray players can have hiccups.
It seems they have changed/modified the copy protection many times to thwart bootlegging...the players keep needing firmware updates to manage these changes.
Avatar was a perfect example of this...it locked about everyone's blu ray player up
Ofcourse it seems they don't care about anyone copying standard DVD..you have been able to buy software to do that for years...


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post #1524 of 2615 Old 11-10-2010, 06:44 AM
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Joe

I keep trying to beat you record....I might be close again..lol

In regard to markets to sell this concept to.
I would say that of course they started with the high end level of the product range...and likely the smallest, percentage wise, segment of HDTV sales
They also seemed to be after the "kids" market
I guess I can understand this....there are millions of people a year( and I have friends that have) that spend $2500-3500 extra on their SUV just to have the DVD and video screens in it...just for their kids
It doesn't seem out of the question that they would spend somewhere close to that amount for the family TV. A purchase that they could use as well as their kids

Another market segment they should attack( IMO) is the gamers. There are probably millions( if not a billion) worth of $$ spent by gamers each year buying such things as the "Call of Duty that was just released. An item that created a line outside my local BB the other night
To do this( IMO) they need to have some lower priced models that are 3D capable...some mid range priced offerings
I call this the Jackass 3D crowd. I don't mean anything negative by that..I am just stating the demographic

In my mind when the 3D sets roll into Walmart they should have the price point to hit this demographic head on
This crowd won't have an issue with the price of the glasses. even past the ones they got for free
Based on the "I" phone pricing they paid and the $2500-3500 worth of games they have at home it should not be an issue
Thought I think dropping dropping $2500 for a TV would be

If they come out with store brand 3D next year..ie..Insignia and some other 3rd tier brands...I can see multiple 3D sets in the same household..especially for those households in suburban middle class to upper middle class neighborhoods that have teenagers in the household. The kind of household where the teenager has both a laptop and an "I" phone
If the price threshold of the sets gets to the point where a college student etc can pay for it...things will change drastically
And that person does not demand the picture quality of a videophile

Kind of like drinking cheap liquor in college..its amazing what you( or me anyway) could put away in the early to mid 20's...that I now 20 years later would not even think of touching

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post #1525 of 2615 Old 11-10-2010, 07:01 AM
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Joe

You are making assumptions here as to what the extra cost..if any...there is for a manufacturer of a 3D set. How do you know it costs them anymore to manufacture compared to the same set without 3DWarren

Hi Warren,

I can't believe you just said that. If Hollywood is limited with producing titles due to the extra expenses associated with filming movies in 3D, does that mean the same doesn't apply to the equipment required to present such type content?

You believe it doesn't cost the industry that much to incorporate 3D into a high-end set? That little money was spent on research and development over the past half decade and if so, that the industry would not pass these hidden costs onto the consumer in the price of the set?

Since only the high end models with 3D also have all the other latest features deemed necessary by videophiles, are you also suggesting that there is no mark-up and that 3D was just thrown in for free? That the same type of television without 3D wouldn't cost any less to produce... or sell?

If there was no additional profit to be made, I don't think the industry would have wasted it's time, effort and expense on developing 3D. They are driven by profit, not altruistic desires.


Joe

P.S. I just prevented you from tying my record again.
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post #1526 of 2615 Old 11-10-2010, 07:05 AM
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"I didn't know that you had a true 1080P capable display?..how were you able to go back and forth between 1080P and 480P?"

Hi Warren,

On the bottom of the screen one can pull up a window to access the type of resolution they want. Usually it's a choice between 360p, 480p and 720p, with some also going up to 1080p.

Joe
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post #1527 of 2615 Old 11-10-2010, 07:21 AM
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"I didn't know that you had a true 1080P capable display?..how were you able to go back and forth between 1080P and 480P?"

Hi Warren,

On the bottom of the screen one can pull up a window to access the type of resolution they want. Usually it's a choice between 360p, 480p and 720p, with some also going up to 1080p.

Joe

I said true 1080P..not upconverted material
Or should I say 1080P native material


Warren

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post #1528 of 2615 Old 11-10-2010, 07:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Dubin View Post

Hi Warren,

I can't believe you just said that. If Hollywood is limited with producing titles due to the extra expenses associated with filming movies in 3D, does that mean the same doesn't apply to the equipment required to present such type content?

You believe it doesn't cost the industry that much to incorporate 3D into a high-end set? That little money was spent on research and development over the past half decade and if so, that the industry would not pass these hidden costs onto the consumer in the price of the set?

Since only the high end models with 3D also have all the other latest features deemed necessary by videophiles, are you also suggesting that there is no mark-up and that 3D was just thrown in for free? That the same type of television without 3D wouldn't cost any less to produce... or sell?

If there was no additional profit to be made, I don't think the industry would have wasted it's time, effort and expense on developing 3D. They are driven by profit, not altruistic desires.


Joe

P.S. I just prevented you from tying my record again.

Joe

it might..but you don't know that for sure..its speculation. I am speaking to cost of TV manufacturing
There is additional profit to be made for sure...however that doesn't have to be related, at all, to the cost of manufacturing.
Why has the cost of an equivalent TV gone down since last year( and every year)?...even with 3D capability they are still less expensive
You could speculate on this one till the cows come home
are 3D TV's any more expensive to produce?...would they have been cheaper this year without 3D?...have they gotten cheaper to manufacture..or have the manufacturers lowered their profit margins?

For instance one of the features of my 8000 series Samsung TV ( over the 7000 series) is what they call its ultra clear panel...the TV's are $300 MSRP difference
Does that panel actually cost them more than the one in the 7000..who knows
And really..I don't care about the profits/costs etc associated with the company's products
I only care about performance and affordability

Warren

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post #1529 of 2615 Old 11-10-2010, 07:31 AM
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I said true 1080P..not upconverted material
Or should I say 1080P native material


Warren

That we might not ever know, although the difference between 480p and 720/1080p is noticably better. For older black and white films like Three Stooges shorts seen on the critters app, the sharpness, black and constrast levels are definately there, even if just upconverted.

I will try and scan a few films to see if there is anything mentioned about remastered for HD before the presentation begins and will let you know.
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post #1530 of 2615 Old 11-10-2010, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Joseph Dubin View Post

That we might not ever know, although the difference between 480p and 720/1080p is noticably better. For older black and white films like Three Stooges shorts seen on the critters app, the sharpness, black and constrast levels are definately there, even if just upconverted.

I will try and scan a few films to see if there is anything mentioned about remastered for HD before the presentation begins and will let you know.

Actually its pretty simple

if it was not;
a Blu ray disc
an HD DVD disc
or one of the "certified" 1080P streaming services such as Cinema Now or Vudu etc
Then it was not 1080P native resolution

and even then..I can notice a difference in a "remastered" blu ray disc from an old standard DVD release..vs a new release movie on blu ray disc
I recall the same being true for remastered DVD movies from older movies that were on original VHS releases
A different level of both video and audio quality

Warren

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