Surround Sound - How many speakers needed? - Page 16 - AVS Forum
View Poll Results: How many speakers do you think are needed for home surround sound?
5.1 - L,C,R,LS,RS - SUB 0 0%
7.1 - L,C,R,LS,RS,LR,RR - SUB 0 0%
9.1 - L,C,R,LS1,RS1,LS2,RS2,LR,RR - SUB 0 0%
11.1 - L,C,R,LW,RW,LH,RH,LS,RS,LR,RR - SUB 0 0%
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post #451 of 494 Old 06-29-2013, 01:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

I suspect Dolby has a much larger market share than DTS, so I wouldn't exactly say "DTS won", and SDDS may be on its last legs, but over a dozen movies are being released with SDDS, this year alone, and the following haven't even hit theaters yet:

Dec/13 47 Ronin
Nov/13 Area 51
Oct/13 Captain Phillips
Sep/13 I, Frankenstein
Jul/13 The Conjuring

Of course most movies are released with multiple soundtrack formats and which one we actually experience in the theater itself is only known by the cinema in question.
The only way you can hear an SDDS track is in a theater playing a 35mm print. What would be the point of that?

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post #452 of 494 Old 06-29-2013, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

The only way you can hear an SDDS track is in a theater playing a 35mm print. What would be the point of that?

Point? I was merely establishing that SDDS still exists, even if it is on its last legs; it hasn't died off just yet and "got replaced by DTS some time after 1993", which is how I read this:
Quote:
Ah yes - SDDS is what it was (7.1 channels in 1993) - DTS eventually won out over that

SDDS, for the time being, is still played in at least some existing theaters in some markets.

P.S. On a side note, if you are suggesting, in what I've quoted you on, that the newer digital cinemas, playing a digital movie [as opposed to 35mm film] are fundamentally incapable of delivering SDDS to the movie audience for technical reasons, under any circumstances, I believe you are wrong.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #453 of 494 Old 06-29-2013, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

Point? I was merely establishing that SDDS still exists, even if it is on its last legs; it hasn't died off just yet and "got replaced by DTS some time after 1993", which is how I read this:
SDDS, for the time being, is still played in at least some existing theaters in some markets.
My point is simply that if a tree falls in the woods, and nobody is there to hear it...
Quote:
P.S. On a side note, if you are suggesting, in what I've quoted you on, that the newer digital cinemas, playing a digital movie [as opposed to 35mm film] are fundamentally incapable of delivering SDDS to the movie audience for technical reasons, under any circumstances, I believe you are wrong.
No, I am not saying that all cinemas have sold off their 35mm projectors. I'm saying that films are distributed on digital to cinemas that support digital, so even if they have SDDS gear in the rack, and even if there are 35mm prints struck with SDDS, never the twain shall meet.

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post #454 of 494 Old 06-29-2013, 12:42 PM
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For a minute there I thought you were implying that the presentation of a digital movie, played in a digital cinema, through their digital projector, couldn't have an SDDS soundtrack played to the audience for that movie.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #455 of 494 Old 06-29-2013, 01:07 PM
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I have a 16x22 multi-purpose media room using a 7.1 set-up. I can only hear the back speakers on certain parts of a movie. I would suppose a larger room may require 11.1, but I am truly satisfied with my current set-up.
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post #456 of 494 Old 06-29-2013, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

For a minute there I thought you were implying that the presentation of a digital movie, played in a digital cinema, through their digital projector, couldn't have an SDDS soundtrack played to the audience for that movie.
When you say "SDDS", do you mean 5 channels across the front or ATRAC compressed audio (or both)?

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post #457 of 494 Old 06-29-2013, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

When you say "SDDS", do you mean 5 channels across the front or ATRAC compressed audio (or both)?
Not sure what Zillch had in mind, but I took him literally, meaning ATRAC coded audio on 35mm. If it's PCM on a Digital Cinema package, it's not SDDS anymore, just as it's not Dolby 7.1. It's just a PCM audio soundtrack.
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

For a minute there I thought you were implying that the presentation of a digital movie, played in a digital cinema, through their digital projector, couldn't have an SDDS soundtrack played to the audience for that movie.
I am not implying, I am asserting. wink.gif

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post #458 of 494 Old 06-29-2013, 05:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Not sure what Zillch had in mind, but I took him literally, meaning ATRAC coded audio on 35mm. If it's PCM on a Digital Cinema package, it's not SDDS anymore, just as it's not Dolby 7.1. It's just a PCM audio soundtrack.
Hence my question, since the DCI spec doesn't include decoding for SDDS audio. Five screen channels were already done by Cinerama (and its competitor), so that wasn't anything new nor unique to SDDS.

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post #459 of 494 Old 06-29-2013, 07:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

When you say "SDDS", do you mean 5 channels across the front or ATRAC compressed audio (or both)?

I mean a movie soundtrack which the inventor of the system, Sony, deems "SDDS". They coined the term so they get to decide what it means, not us.

[5 front channels isn't a prerequisite and is actually much less common than three front channels, for both SDDS movies and SDDS equipped theaters, by the way.]

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #460 of 494 Old 06-29-2013, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

I mean a movie soundtrack which the inventor of the system, Sony, deems "SDDS". They coined the term so they get to decide what it means, not us.
In that case, what you believe (below) is wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

On a side note, if you are suggesting, in what I've quoted you on, that the newer digital cinemas, playing a digital movie [as opposed to 35mm film] are fundamentally incapable of delivering SDDS to the movie audience for technical reasons, under any circumstances, I believe you are wrong.

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post #461 of 494 Old 06-29-2013, 09:34 PM
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No, you are wrong. This was Sony's announcement of the premier example of a digitally presented movie, not film, being played with what they, the inventors, deem an SDDS soundtrack:

"Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within” Makes History as the First Digital Cinema 8 Channel SDDS Release"

Culver City, CA: On July 11, 2001 history will be made as Columbia Pictures and Square Pictures
release “Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within” in over 2500 theatres, with seven theatres premiering the
sci-fi action-adventure in Digital Cinema format using 8 Channel Sony Dynamic Digital Sound
(SDDS) modified for electronic format. SDDS equipment currently installed in theatres will reproduce
the 8 Channel Digital Cinema audio in seven cities...

...Over 1270 screens worldwide are currently equipped to play 8 Channel SDDS films. The original 8 Channel SDDS mix
for "Final Fantasy" will be the first exhibited in Digital Cinema format in 8 Channels, remaining faithful to the filmmakers’ intent....

Source: July 9, 2001 Sony News Release

Your only way to squirm out of this is say that:

A.) Sony doesn't know what they are talking about, it wasn't SDDS (this one with 5 front channels, 2 surrounds, and a sub = 8, by the way) because they don't get to define "SDDS", you (and Roger) do.

or

B.) The Digital Cinemas playing this performance were wrong to call themselves "digital". The "DLP" chip they were using stands for, um, "Delightful Light Processing" tongue.gif

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #462 of 494 Old 06-29-2013, 11:32 PM
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The answer is in your 12-year-old press release: "modified" for electronic format. They literally had to change SDDS, that too for a promotion in only 7 theatres. Promotion is over.

"Newer digital cinemas" (to use your words) have movies delivered as a Digital Cinema Package, which delivers audio as uncompressed PCM (.wav container), and cannot decode SDDS audio. That is, they are "fundamentally incapable of delivering SDDS to the movie audience for technical reasons". The technical reason being no ATRAC decoder. So no SDDS with digital cinema.

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post #463 of 494 Old 06-30-2013, 12:13 AM
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Not sure I'm exactly following you all, but both the major theaters in my area are DLP (not sure what make and model).

Immediately following the DLP ad, there's one for SDDS.

So based on what I've read here, either they're not using a DCI machine, or, for whatever reason, are still playing a an ad for SDDS.
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post #464 of 494 Old 06-30-2013, 12:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

The answer is in your 12-year-old press release: "modified" for electronic format. They literally had to change SDDS, that too for a promotion in only 7 theatres. Promotion is over.

"Newer digital cinemas" (to use your words) have movies delivered as a Digital Cinema Package, which encodes audio as .wav files, and cannot decode SDDS audio. That is, they are "fundamentally incapable of delivering SDDS to the movie audience for technical reasons". The technical reason being no ATRAC decoder. So no SDDS with digital cinema.

I see, what I just proved with external documentation in my last post, directly from the inventors of SDDS themselves, never happened, or at least doesn't count because it happened 12 years ago or was "promotional". Riiiiiight.

I never said it was a common or on-going process, dude, I simply said it was possible, under certain circumstances, to enjoy a Digital Cinema movie while hearing an SDDS soundtrack, and now I have proven, with an external link, that such screenings actually happened. I win.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #465 of 494 Old 06-30-2013, 12:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biliam1982 View Post

Not sure I'm exactly following you all, but both the major theaters in my area are DLP (not sure what make and model).

Immediately following the DLP ad, there's one for SDDS.
Which cinema?

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post #466 of 494 Old 06-30-2013, 01:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

I see, what I just proved with external documentation in my last post, directly from the inventors of SDDS themselves, never happened, or at least doesn't count because it happened 12 years ago or was "promotional".
That's like claiming Disney Studios are capable of releasing movies in Fantasound and proving it by quoting a press release that mentions it was done in 1940 for a 14-theatre promotion of 'Fantasia'.
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I never said it was a common or on-going process, dude, I simply said it was possible, under certain circumstances, to enjoy a Digital Cinema movie while hearing an SDDS soundtrack, and now I have proven, with an external link, that such screenings actually happened.
I see what you did there, switching to the past tense when previously you were making claims in the present tense:
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

On a side note, if you are suggesting, in what I've quoted you on, that the newer digital cinemas, playing a digital movie [as opposed to 35mm film] are fundamentally incapable of delivering SDDS to the movie audience for technical reasons, under any circumstances, I believe you are wrong.

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post #467 of 494 Old 06-30-2013, 01:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

I never said it was a common or on-going process, dude
Well. that's not what you claimed before:
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

I was merely establishing that SDDS still exists, even if it is on its last legs; it hasn't died off just yet
When it comes to D-Cinema, SDDS does not exist, as in today.

Quote:
I simply said it was possible, under certain circumstances, to enjoy a Digital Cinema movie while hearing an SDDS soundtrack, and now I have proven, with an external link, that such screenings actually happened. I win.
Except it didn't happen. Read it again:
Quote:
with seven theatres premiering the sci-fi action-adventure in Digital Cinema format using 8 Channel Sony Dynamic Digital Sound (SDDS) modified for electronic format. SDDS equipment currently installed in theatres will reproduce the 8 Channel Digital Cinema audio in seven cities...
The sound heard in those theaters was the same SDDS 7.1 mix heard in conventional 35mm SDDS theaters. That's where it ends. The soundtrack was not in SDDS format, it was 8-ch PCM, totally bypassing the ATRAC encoder and decoder.

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post #468 of 494 Old 06-30-2013, 06:45 AM
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Quote:
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Which cinema?

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post #469 of 494 Old 06-30-2013, 08:00 AM
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I guess people who decompress Dolby Digital or DTS in their disc players and then send the analog sound to their receivers' multi jack RCA external inputs, instead of decoding the digital stream in the receiver itself, aren't truly listening to the Dolby Digital or DTS soundtrack in their home theaters then, because the decompression happened in the, um, "wrong" location, upstream from the "correct" location, huh? rolleyes.giftongue.gif That's essentially all that's happening in these cinemas, folks. Their SDDS processor units undoubtedly have an analogous "Direct (pre-decoded/uncompressed) Multi-Channel Input", just like many/most of our home A/V receivers do, or they've installed one, so they can take the multi-channel SDDS soundtrack directly in from their digital movie, with no need to apply any ATRAC decompression. The notion that Sony shouldn't be allowed to call such theatrical presentations "SDDS", as they do, is utterly ridiculous.

P.S. The original prototype SDDS system Sony had developed by Semetex didn't even have any ATRAC compression at all! That was added later. OOPs, did I just refer to it as "SDDS" again? I guess to some people, not Sony, that's the wrong name for it, since in their mind Sony doesn't get to define the term, they do. Oh brother.rolleyes.gif

They are fundamentally capable of presenting movies this way if they want to. It's quite simple. Present tense.
There's nothing in place to prevent them from continuing to do so, if they want to. [Until the equipment breaks down] Not that I'm claiming they do in most current cinemas, I don't know (or care).
They have actually done it in the past, as I've documented with an external link to provide proof.
They may actually still be doing this in some theaters currently, I guess, hence biliam1982's post mentioning that he's seen on-screen SDDS ads on movies at his local DLP cinemas, quite recently.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #470 of 494 Old 06-30-2013, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

I guess people who decompress Dolby Digital or DTS in their disc players and then send the analog sound to their receivers' multi jack RCA external inputs, instead of decoding the digital stream in the receiver itself, aren't truly listening to Dolby Digital or DTS in their home theaters then, because the decompression happened in the "wrong" location, upstream from the "correct" location, huh? That's essentially all that's happening in these cinemas, folks. Their SDDS processor units have a "Direct (pre-decoded/uncompressed) multi-channel in", just like many/most of our A/V receivers do, so they can take the multi channel SDDS soundtrack directly in, and not have to apply any ATRAC decompression.
You just contradicted yourself, using the decoding of lossy soundtracks (DD & DTS decompression) as your example but then claiming that the SDDS decoder does no such thing (ATRAC decompression). If the ATRAC decoding doesn't happen in the SDDS decoder, then where "upstream" does it happen? Unless you're now claiming that analogue passthrough is SDDS?
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The original prototype SDDS system Sony had developed by Semetex didn't even have any ATRAC compression at all! That was added later. OOPs, did I just refer to it as "SDDS" again?
Yes you did, and (like before) did so without being able to describe what you mean by SDDS. How can you say that SDDS decoding is occuring if you can't define what SDDS is?

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post #471 of 494 Old 06-30-2013, 10:47 AM
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Yes you did, and (like before) did so without being able to describe what you mean by SDDS.

You obviously must have missed/ forgotten my response to this in this post:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1256647/surround-sound-how-many-speakers-needed/450#post_23480728

Addressing your other point in your last post, just like it doesn't matter if the delivery system to the theater was from a server, a digital file on some CDs,, a ton of floppy discs tongue.gif, or from reading a physical piece of 35mm film, the sound those people heard in that Digital Cinema, while watching Final Fantasy, was properly termed "SDDS", whether or not that data was, hypothetically, compressed numerically only, or through a lossy perceptual coder, or where in the chain it was compressed/decompressed, or if any kind of compression occurred, anywhere, at any time. It's immaterial to the discussion of Sony calling this example of the theatrical presentation of Final Fantasy, "SDDS". If you have a problem with that, complain to Sony about how they use the term they invented, not me. I personally have no problem with their use of the term.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #472 of 494 Old 06-30-2013, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

You obviously must have missed/ forgotten what I said in this post:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1256647/surround-sound-how-many-speakers-needed/450#post_23480728
Other way 'round. I didn't miss your post, my comment was about that very post: you either refuse to or are incapable of describing what SDDS is. You're attempting to argue its use when you don't even know what it is.
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It also doesn't matter if that data was compressed numerically only, or through a lossy perceptual coder, or where in the chain it was compressed/decompressed, or if any kind of compression occurred, anywhere, at any time.
So now the SDDS format can be self contradictory too. BTW, you forgot in the above list to mention one of your earlier contradictions: Sony Dynamic Digital Sound can also be pure/direct analogue passthrough.

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post #473 of 494 Old 06-30-2013, 11:53 AM
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Is it just me or is all this talk about Sony's SDDS system constitute as being... off-topic!

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post #474 of 494 Old 06-30-2013, 12:14 PM
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Oh I get it now, Sanjay. You are trying to set a trap. I give some rudimentary, cursory explanation and you then attack it by harping on some trivial, inconsequential detail I deliberately omit because it doesn't matter, but that you claim is actually "paramount". Homey don't play that.

 

If it comforts you to think "I don't know what it is", despite being the only person in the thread who has mentioned it was actually developed for Sony by Semetex, and originally not using ATRAC at all, so be it. I don't really care...

 

P.S. Yes to SMD, off topic.


In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #475 of 494 Old 06-30-2013, 12:18 PM
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Carmike
Thanks. None of the current Fandango listings mention SDDS, so perhaps the reason they show an SDDS trailer is that a) the trailer is in the normal stack along with the DLP bumper, popcorn promotion, the "turn off the cell phone" message, and any other Carmike trailers. Since the rack has the SDDS cinema processor, which may actually be in the signal path if they are passing the output of the DCP digital decoder through the aux inputs as they can do for other digital decoders. (This is described in the DFP-3000 info.)

But this is all just my speculations. Next time you visit the Carmike, you might ask the manager why they show the SDDS trailer for a digital cinema presentation, and see what he says.

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post #476 of 494 Old 06-30-2013, 12:42 PM
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Oh I get it now, Sanjay. You are trying to set a trap.
You're projecting your mindset onto me. I'm not the one compelled to end posts with "I win".
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If it comforts you to think "I don't know what it is"
Comfort? Just pointing out that you are making claims about something you cannot even describe, short of a list of contradictions: compressed and not compressed, lossy and lossless, digital and analogue.

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post #477 of 494 Old 06-30-2013, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

... which may actually be in the signal path if they are passing the output of the DCP digital decoder through the aux inputs as they can do for other digital decoders. (This is described in the DFP-3000 info.)

I like how in section 3-4 of that SDDS processor's manual it mentions,

 

"To use the AUX1 or AUX2 for external sound sources other than digital film sound decoders, short pin blah-blah-blah to..."

 

making it dead obvious that one of these inputs' intended uses is exactly as I called it, for pre-decoded (or never compressed in the first place) multichannel soundtracks from Digital Cinema movies, even though I've never seen a DFP-3000, or its manual, in person.


In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #478 of 494 Old 06-30-2013, 02:15 PM
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Comfort? Just pointing out that you are making claims about something you cannot even describe, short of a list of contradictions: compressed and not compressed, lossy and lossless, digital and analogue.

Are you still having trouble conceptualizing how a multi-channel, digital movie soundtrack can be transferred from one place to another without any need for things like sprockets, an optical reader, or ATRAC?


In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #479 of 494 Old 06-30-2013, 03:31 PM
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Back on topic, please! Some of us don't care about Sony's almost or dead soundtrack at all.

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post #480 of 494 Old 06-30-2013, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

Are you still having trouble conceptualizing how a multi-channel, digital movie soundtrack can be transferred from one place to another without any need for things like sprockets, an optical reader, or ATRAC?
Done all the time in DCP, but then it's not SDDS.

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