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Old 05-18-2012, 10:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Beyond Blu-ray
Author - Mark Anderson




It seems like only yesterday that I breathed a sigh of relief at the end of the HD format wars. Blu-ray had won and I could safely start building my HD media library. With players under $100, it’s safe to say Blu-ray is now mainstream, but current TV’s and projectors can display content that is not supported by Blu-ray. Good examples include wide-gamut TV’s and 4K displays projectors and AV receivers. It’s time to look to the future.

Let me be clear, there’s nothing wrong with Blu-ray. Every time I insert a (well authored) Blu-ray movie into my player and watch it on my Pioneer Kuro, I’m amazed. The quality is outstanding—especially for the price, but I want more.

Read the complete article at HomeToys.com

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Old 05-18-2012, 01:21 PM
 
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I think we’re stuck with Blu-ray and 1080P (or upsampled 4K) for the foreseeable future.

Kind of an ignorant way of saying 4K won't be viable for consumers for at least a decade from now...
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Old 05-18-2012, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Splicer010 View Post

Kind of an ignorant way of saying 4K won't be viable for consumers for at least a decade from now...

I do hope it is not that far away. 4K player and display is coming out slowly, and probably more mainstream in 5 years. Content probably takes longer, so 10 years for mainstream 4K could be right
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Old 05-18-2012, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidK442 View Post

If Hi-definition had not come hand in hand with flat panel screens would the average consumer have ditched their old DVD player and CRT for 1080p. I have my doubts.

That combined with the transition to digital broadcasts. I absolutely agree we just got a lucky break that 1080p is now mainstream. I don't think the stars are aligned right now in such a way to allow a second lucky break. 4K displays with upscaling will be the best thing going in mainstream consumer media for a very long time.
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Old 05-18-2012, 09:44 PM
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Amazing how people are fascinated by new tech, even if the human eye can't tell the difference. Like people that sit in their living rooms, 15 feet from a 42" flat panel that they bought 4 years ago. They HAD to have 1080p because that was the "best", but what the marketing and sales guy didn't tell them is that their eyes won't be able to tell the difference in 720p and 1080p in their situation, and yet a LOT of sub 50" 1080p sets were sold.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for "better", but 4K isn't it. Not for the home. I mean, in order to get an image big enough to really notice, you are dealing with front projection, and I would rather have them work on brighter, higher contrast projectors than pumping more and smaller pixels at us.

Like others have said, 1080p is "mainstream" due to a number of factors. 4K won't be so lucky.
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Old 05-18-2012, 11:57 PM
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All the same obstacles were cited a decade ago for the adoption of HD. The major manufacturers are always looking for new upgrade paths, and this seems like the inevitable near field destination.

I love my 1080P set, I say bring on the 4k, I can't wait.

And DavidK442, I'm sorry your Netflix in Canada is almost unwatchabe, but it's pretty darn good here in Central California, on par with over-the-air HD prime-time broadcasting. For $8 a month I'm a happy camper.
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Old 05-19-2012, 12:14 AM
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We've all seen the charts showing the limits of visual acuity at different seating distances. The fact of the matter is that, even for the vast majority of discerning enthusiasts, the move to 4K is not a very compelling one. The only strong selling point for me would be that halved 3D resolution would still be HD. Yes, there are those that will benefit, but it is a very small marketplace compared to the move to HD, which included not only the shift to flat panel tech, but also the move to digital broadcast. The stars are just not well aligned for 4k to take off in my opinion.

"A wide screen just makes a bad film twice as bad. "
-Samuel Goldwyn

I wonder what he'd think about 3D IMAX?
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Old 05-19-2012, 01:30 AM
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Limitations of Current Blu-ray
The two main content limitations of Blu-ray are color space and resolution. On the color space front, all content is produced to Rec.709 standard. This is largely based on the NTSC standard from the 1950’s. In contrast, digital content for theaters is authored to DCI P3: a much large color gamut and much better suited to today’s display technologies (Plasma, backlit LCD, OLED, etc.) (For more detailed information on color gamut, see previous article: Divergence of Content and Display Technology.)

The much bigger issue is one of pixel count. The current Blu-ray disk does not have sufficient capacity to hold a feature length movie at 4K. At 4 times the pixel count of 1080P, a 4K movie with bonus material and uncompressed audio will require over 100GB (assuming we stick with 24fps). So one of the following is required:
  • Use of multiple disks
  • A new, higher capacity disk format
  • Better encoding/compression
  • An alternative to optical disk


Based on the article, it almost appears that we have milked the proverbial "disk" for all it is worth in getting to 1080p - and that taking things to the next level, ie "quad", would require a rebuild of the A/V delivery chain as we know it. As exciting as it is, I think they might be right. We will obviously see advanced resolution [beyond 1080p] at tradeshows and the like in the same way you see concept cars at automobile shows today. But we are clearly at some kind of crossroad now - which could be a good thing.
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Old 05-19-2012, 01:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek Dean View Post

All the same obstacles were cited a decade ago for the adoption of HD. The major manufacturers are always looking for new upgrade paths, and this seems like the inevitable near field destination.

I love my 1080P set, I say bring on the 4k, I can't wait.

Yes, your are right ! Even i have the same opinion.Things will change in 4 to 5 years.And They have BD disc that can hold up to 150GD data having 4 layers.So once 4k becomes a hit,then holloyhood studios will launch movies,imax presentation in that video format with dolby or DTS trueHD with lossless techonology becoming the order of the day.
If corporations don't keep inventing new things it could become difficult for them to sustain in business.

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Old 05-19-2012, 06:22 AM
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Originally Posted by fight4yu View Post

I do hope it is not that far away. 4K player and display is coming out slowly, and probably more mainstream in 5 years. Content probably takes longer, so 10 years for mainstream 4K could be right

It took a long time for the current HD broadcast standards to be chosen. If there is not some innovative extra compression techniques, over-the-air transmission for 4K quality may be a long way away. Frequency spectrum fights are becoming more common, and I don't think that 4K would be viable unless people were able to receive over-the-air transmissions. Networks and stations would be reluctant to spend the money if it required completely new equipment, as opposed to higher quality signals over existing or only slightly modified equipment.

I apologize in advance if this issue has already been researched by those coming out with 4K equipment and I have simply not run across that information :-)

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Old 05-19-2012, 05:31 PM
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Interesting discussion. I agree with the viewpoint that 4k is at least 10 years away from being main-stream. I kind of suspect that the format will become obsolete rather than become mainstream.

Almost reminds me of LaserDisc. A minority were willing to pay a premium for special equipment & content.
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Old 05-19-2012, 05:44 PM
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My friends at the BBC (who is broadcasting the Olympics in 4K this summer) tell me that larger screens and 4k is at least 10 years away. We are safe to buy 1080p now and know that's really the best we'll have.

My thing is I'd rather have the industry work out standards before releasing 4K to the consumer world. I'd rather not have another format war or anything that causes consumers to lose (poor HD-DVD owners).
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Old 05-19-2012, 06:29 PM
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4K is already here. Movies have been mastered to 4K for a long time. Film masters, 35mm, are equivalent to 4K. You want to see 4K, just go to the digital movies. The extra resolution and color gamut is readily apparent. It is now why I go to the movies. Can't wait to get it at home.
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Old 05-19-2012, 08:46 PM
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4K displays can upconvert 1080p Blu-ray and make it look even better and the upconversion to 4K from 1080p is even better than from 480p to 1080p as there is more stuff to work with in the way of pixels in 1920x 1080 than there was in 640x480.

Less stuff needs to be created out of thin air.

4K recordable Blu-ray drives are already on the market for BD-R computer data situations and Sony is already working on 4K BD-Rom media.

4K may not be a mass market movie software format like DVD or Blu-ray but it will be available for enthusiasts in one way or another for select catalog titles and even more new releases as time goes along. Even if that's 4K distributed from the cloud instead of on Blu-ray or other physical media.

Also as noted above 4K displays can show full 1080p Blu-ray 3D movies in each eye so Blu-ray 3D will look better on 4K displays as well.

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Old 05-20-2012, 01:29 AM
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In many Asian countries, SD 4:3 contents are still the standard for national FTA TV broadcasting. 720p is good enough on 50" display. 1080p BD (and better standard) requires a front projector to shine.
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Old 05-20-2012, 02:29 AM
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I agree were a good 10 years away from 4K content being mainstream... even then it may fall short and lose steam and become the next "laserdisc".

The move to 1080p and some form of hi-def disc (which obviously blu-ray won over hd-dvd) was inevitable as the difference from tube TV's to flat screens combined with hi-def resolutions was HUGE! 4K is not so much of a difference until you get into HUGE tv sizes or projectors where the images being projected are very large.

Just think 3D was a marketing team's wet dream with its "cool" factor and boy did/have they promoted it like that to but still people have not adopted it in their homes. I mean people are still buying dvd's folks!!! <<< 4K is a LONG way's away without a doubt.
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Old 05-20-2012, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HorizonChaser View Post

My friends at the BBC (who is broadcasting the Olympics in 4K this summer) tell me that larger screens and 4k is at least 10 years away. We are safe to buy 1080p now and know that's really the best we'll have.

My thing is I'd rather have the industry work out standards before releasing 4K to the consumer world. I'd rather not have another format war or anything that causes consumers to lose (poor HD-DVD owners).

Here Here - I personally believe all of it will happen simultaneously. Whether it ultimately evolves into 4K or some other medium, resolutions higher than 1080p will eventually happen - in the general course of technololgy improvement. And just as BD is not in every home yet, niether will 4K. That of course doesn't mean there won't be a strong following as a niche market for it - for example those who bought the Sony's 1000ES. From the threads I've read - those guys ain't never comin back this way again. They are gone for good. So I think there is certainly room for it right now - but it will be awhile before it or anything like it gets anywhere close to the mainstream.
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Old 05-20-2012, 08:07 AM
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...Even USB 3.0 flash drives are slow and copying 100GB is likely to take a whilemy brand new Core i7/USB3.0 laptop only gets about 22MBs to a USB 3.0 stick, so we're talking over an hour to copy 100GB...

Somewhat tangent, but you're only getting USB2 speeds at that rate. I have a hard drive in a USB3 external case, and I get over 100 MB/s with it, and that is limited by the speed of the hard drive, not USB3. That would still be longer than I'd expect a customer to wait at a store for a 100GB movie to be loaded onto their drive, though.

I question the assertion that 4k movies will cost that much more to produce. Isn't good ol' analog film in the ballpark of 4k resolution, though it is not in a rigid 2D grid of digital pixels? Digital special effects may cost more to create at higher resolutions, but over the years, the power of computing has steadily increased while the cost per computing has gone down. Any additional digital effect cost should disappear within a few years.

Bazinga!

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Old 05-20-2012, 11:15 AM
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I think the fact is 1080p looks absolutely great at 55" I don't see people seeing a great need for 4K until whatever tv screen technology becomes affordable at very large screen sizes, kind of like in the articles picture.

Give me a 125" 60fps 4K TV for $2000 and I'll be thrilled.

PS a major problem with 4k high frame rate video is that it will make streaming services pretty close to impossible.
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Old 05-20-2012, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by gorthocar View Post

Somewhat tangent, but you're only getting USB2 speeds at that rate. I have a hard drive in a USB3 external case, and I get over 100 MB/s with it, and that is limited by the speed of the hard drive, not USB3. That would still be longer than I'd expect a customer to wait at a store for a 100GB movie to be loaded onto their drive, though.

I question the assertion that 4k movies will cost that much more to produce. Isn't good ol' analog film in the ballpark of 4k resolution, though it is not in a rigid 2D grid of digital pixels? Digital special effects may cost more to create at higher resolutions, but over the years, the power of computing has steadily increased while the cost per computing has gone down. Any additional digital effect cost should disappear within a few years.

I thought a lot of movies are currently being shot in 4K and then get down converted for blu-ray and further for DVD.
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Old 05-20-2012, 06:35 PM
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Didn't you guys read my post? I'm thinking the LG 84" 4k is going to look great. Sony will cram 4k movies on Blu-ray but it won't look as good as at the theater. They have to leave a reason to go. Check this out- http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...-def-2013.html
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Old 05-20-2012, 08:35 PM
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What's "Blue-ray" ???
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Old 05-20-2012, 11:42 PM
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cool. 1080P projectors will be $200....and anamorphic lenses will still be $6000
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Old 05-21-2012, 12:51 AM
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on the way to 4k, which of these do you think will come first
Quote:


Use of multiple disks
A new, higher capacity disk format
Better encoding/compression
An alternative to optical disk

I'm going to argue for number 3 [better compression and encoding].
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Old 05-21-2012, 08:32 AM
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4k displays would be nice if only for the higher ppi. I'd much rather see improvements in color depth and frame rate, and cheaper, bigger OLED screens.
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Old 05-21-2012, 12:09 PM
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I think where this will all come together is in the commercial market{lesser in the HT market}.
OLED screens using 4k-8K- commercials. In stores-stadiums-billboards ....... .
The absolute WOW !!!! factor. [think Victoria Secrets & football here]
50x100' screens
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Old 05-21-2012, 06:17 PM
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Fantastic article. It does seem too costly for studios to do this. But what about Sharp's 8k display at CES this year? I want 4k or 8k, either one will do. Guess we will have to wait for consumer grade camcorders to film in 4k before we get a true vessel to hold the data and a transport to play the gb's or tb's of info.
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Old 05-21-2012, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post

In many Asian countries, SD 4:3 contents are still the standard for national FTA TV broadcasting. 720p is good enough on 50" display. 1080p BD (and better standard) requires a front projector to shine.

Your statement is false - the Asian region gets the best of the best FIRST and long before N. America/Europe and they have tested successfully Super HiVision for four years now and in partnership to do the same with the Olympics in GB. 4K will go main stream in Asia long before here - it only makes sense that they are the source of the Electronics and it's R&D and they are the first to adopt and experience it. The hold back was bandwidth 4 yrs ago but today the backbone pipes and switch technology are quite sufficient to handle it now.

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Old 05-21-2012, 11:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidK442 View Post

In my oppinion this article nails it.
If Hi-definition had not come hand in hand with flat panel screens would the average consumer have ditched their old DVD player and CRT for 1080p. I have my doubts.
Many of the "hi-def" cable and satelite channels I've seen have abysmal picture quality (upconverted VHS?) and Netflix (at least in Canada) is almost unwatchable. Even so, the masses seem completely content to ewe and awe over how their new 60' tv is only 1 inch thick.
Those with huge screens and projectors are a minority, and even among this group those who pine away for greater resolution and a better color standard (and are willing and able to pay for it) are fewer still.
98% of the population simply does not care.

Not caring and not having 5 or 10 thousand bucks to drop on a new system ever couple of years are 2 completely different things. As long as people make "new technology" unaffordable to the masses...it's not going to pick up. Should be common sense.
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Old 05-22-2012, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickbuol View Post

Amazing how people are fascinated by new tech, even if the human eye can't tell the difference. Like people that sit in their living rooms, 15 feet from a 42" flat panel that they bought 4 years ago. They HAD to have 1080p because that was the "best", but what the marketing and sales guy didn't tell them is that their eyes won't be able to tell the difference in 720p and 1080p in their situation, and yet a LOT of sub 50" 1080p sets were sold.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for "better", but 4K isn't it. Not for the home. I mean, in order to get an image big enough to really notice, you are dealing with front projection, and I would rather have them work on brighter, higher contrast projectors than pumping more and smaller pixels at us.

Like others have said, 1080p is "mainstream" due to a number of factors. 4K won't be so lucky.

The early adopters for 4K will be those with deep enough pockets to purchase a large enough projection screen to see the difference.

Plus, do you think it's an accident that flat panel makers are pushing towards ever-larger displays? It's certainly not to make 1080p look better, because it doesn't. They're planning for 4K. Right now.

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