Have You Heard Exotic Audio Cables Improve Sound Quality? - Page 16 - AVS Forum
View Poll Results: Have You Heard Exotic Audio Cables Improve Sound Quality?
Yes, and it was a big improvement 47 8.55%
Yes, but it was only a slight improvement 61 11.09%
No, I did not hear any improvement 304 55.27%
I don't have enough experience to say 138 25.09%
Voters: 550. You may not vote on this poll

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post #451 of 646 Old 06-19-2013, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

Nice try tongue.gif

Believe what you want!

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post #452 of 646 Old 06-19-2013, 11:23 PM
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Originally Posted by wse View Post

Believe what you want!

In that case I believe cables can make a difference in good or bad sound in one's system. Not sure why price is a factor as long as its in your allocated cable budget, in fact I'm selling the more expensive cables I have because I've found some that gel better with my current setup and they just happen to cost less eek.gif which goes to show if it gets the job done the way you want it too, I could care less if cost $ 2.00 but as it is sometimes it requires one spending a bit more!

Enjoy your Music & movies wse smile.gif
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post #453 of 646 Old 06-20-2013, 04:26 AM
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I've been working in audio professionally all my life. It's common to hear anomalies that can be traced to a cable -- but it's always something mechanical, or with use of a cable that doesn't meet the electrical requirements of the application.

If two cables are mechanically sound, designed to spec, and can properly carry the signal, they will both have the same effect on audio quality. If you hear a difference, one of the cables is defective.

(Sometimes defects are disguised as "features" in boutique cables. Be careful out there!)


Rdclark, u hit the nail on the head in my opinion, i'm pretty sure lot's of people are liking their cables because they are actually not suited to their system and somehow exaggerate either the bass, the midrange or the top end due to the cable not making the electrical requirements of the application, damn i couldn't have said it better myself and i hope that's the end of it tongue.gif
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post #454 of 646 Old 06-20-2013, 03:19 PM
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Believe what you want!

But must we want what we believe? Or what we believe we want? What we believe we want to believe?

I am glad we settled this matter once and for all!

This dead horse has been thoroughly beaten -- I'll be quiet now.
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post #455 of 646 Old 06-20-2013, 03:30 PM
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Hi Hi Hi said the horse! :)


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post #456 of 646 Old 06-21-2013, 10:49 PM
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well up till now it would've been a hard pill to swallow for me on the digital domain, but a few days ago a friend of mine recommende playing my digital files from a usb stick in stead of directly of my hard disk drive. I thought yeah right whatever....

it almost regrets me to inform u that there is an obvious difference... i'm not too sure what i like best yet... but it's different... dammit
(etc, etc)


If these are real audible differences, then something is wrong with either your comparison method (e.g, not blind, not level-matched, DSP n effect on one but not both), or your setup (something broken, grossly mismatched, or badly designed on purpose)
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post #457 of 646 Old 06-21-2013, 10:53 PM
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Interesting how the two camps persist.

Way back in the day I pinched my pennies to upgrade from a Marantz 1030 integrated amp to a bright shiny Kenwood. The Marantz had average specs for the day, but the Kenwood -- latest design, THD two orders of magnitude better, S/N ratio blew the Marantz out of the water. A better machine by every published number. When the Kenwood arrived mail order from Dixie HiFi I couldn't believe my good fortune. It was a masterpiece of brushed aluminum, big volume knob, lots of switches and adjustments -- a wonder to behold. And I already had the specs --

Then I hooked it up. Gone was the embracing midrange, the subtle nuances of the violins and I had to deal with a collapse of the orchestral soundstage. It sounded dry, lifeless. Totally unsatisfying.

Undaunted I fiddled with the myriad knobs (most lacking on the Marantz), boosted the midrange, toyed with speaker placement.

Then the dark truth became unavoidable -- better specs do not make better sound. I had wasted my treasure on a shiny beast with excellent numbers and no soul, and I hated it.

From that day on I quit looking a spec sheets. I shop by taking a sheath of my favorite albums and sitting and listening and am better for it.

This argument reminds me of my profession, medicine.

Manufacturer 'spec sheets' are often not particularly useful. But well done bench tests can be.

The 'dark truth' -- unavoidable truth -- is that humans are very prone to believing what they want to believe, regardless of whether it is true. As a doctor you should be at least aware that proper comparisons like this are done 'blind' (as well as having other controls in place), to separate 'placebo'-like effects from ones due to real audible difference. Its very possible you drew the wrong conclusion from your 'experiment' with the Marantz and Kenwood because the experiment itself was flawed.
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post #458 of 646 Old 06-22-2013, 02:01 AM
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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

Manufacturer 'spec sheets' are often not particularly useful. But well done bench tests can be.

The 'dark truth' -- unavoidable truth -- is that humans are very prone to believing what they want to believe, regardless of whether it is true. As a doctor you should be at least aware that proper comparisons like this are done 'blind' (as well as having other controls in place), to separate 'placebo'-like effects from ones due to real audible difference. Its very possible you drew the wrong conclusion from your 'experiment' with the Marantz and Kenwood because the experiment itself was flawed.
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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

Manufacturer 'spec sheets' are often not particularly useful. But well done bench tests can be.

The 'dark truth' -- unavoidable truth -- is that humans are very prone to believing what they want to believe, regardless of whether it is true. As a doctor you should be at least aware that proper comparisons like this are done 'blind' (as well as having other controls in place), to separate 'placebo'-like effects from ones due to real audible difference. Its very possible you drew the wrong conclusion from your 'experiment' with the Marantz and Kenwood because the experiment itself was flawed.

How in the world can you tell another listener he's wrong about his thoughts on what he heard! This is not hard and I'll say and say it again just listen, cup your ear if you have too biggrin.gif. I just can't believe at times you guys go off into the deep end due to your own inability to "Hear" and think this is an episode on "Brain Games" and what do you guys think happens after the wire has been exposed? Do you think we that hear a difference keep reinforcing the pipedream by telling ourselves" Man this sounds good" ! I think not and we are probably more critical of cables than you are in the end eek.gif

As strange as this may sound , a critical listening session when evaluating gear or cables or any changes for that matter to my setup, has to meet my personal "Objective" criteria to stay.
And in the end I can guarantee that I'll come away more satisfied than one who's limited by there own personal opinion (not that he or she would only listen) on what different cables ,gear etc.. can make wink.gif
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post #459 of 646 Old 06-22-2013, 04:51 AM
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I would never suggest that the differences you guys hear aren't real.

But I would suggest that if they are differences that you can hear consistently, even if the cable were to be swapped out without your knowledge, or used in another system, then you will be able to identify the cause of the difference through measurement.

In audio, no measurable difference is no difference.
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post #460 of 646 Old 06-22-2013, 11:18 AM
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I would never suggest that the differences you guys hear aren't real.

But I would suggest that if they are differences that you can hear consistently, even if the cable were to be swapped out without your knowledge, or used in another system, then you will be able to identify the cause of the difference through measurement.

In audio, no measurable difference is no difference.

Wouldn't that depend on the measuring device as well ? key word there being "Audio" and the best measuring device would be a brain and ears. But if you put 100% of your trust in a device that may contradict what you hear and still try and convince yourself it sounds good then good luck enjoying this hobby ! Now don't get me wrong, just to be safe and as a check and balance I sometimes use measurements to explain why a piece of gear may sound good to my ears or doesn't , but in the end, I will never let a set of measurements dictate to me what I like or dislike as you're now in the realm of too many variables on the accuracy of the device and the one using it , some one just might be having a bad day wink.gif
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post #461 of 646 Old 06-22-2013, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post


Wouldn't that depend on the measuring device as well ? key word there being "Audio" and the best measuring device would be a brain and ears. But if you put 100% of your trust in a device that may contradict what you hear and still try and convince yourself it sounds good then good luck enjoying this hobby ! Now don't get me wrong, just to be safe and as a check and balance I sometimes use measurements to explain why a piece of gear may sound good to my ears or doesn't , but in the end, I will never let a set of measurements dictate to me what I like or dislike as you're now in the realm of too many variables on the accuracy of the device and the one using it , some one just might be having a bad day wink.gif

But there are more variables in play with your brain and ears than a measuring device.

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post #462 of 646 Old 06-22-2013, 11:43 AM
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But there are more variables in play with your brain and ears than a measuring device.

Indeed ! guess it comes down to the lesser of two evils biggrin.gif and as an self proclaimed ' Audiophile" in search of a higher "Fidelity" and not the best measuring device rolleyes.gif guess which evil I'll chose wink.gif
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post #463 of 646 Old 06-22-2013, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdclark View Post

I would never suggest that the differences you guys hear aren't real.

But I would suggest that if they are differences that you can hear consistently, even if the cable were to be swapped out without your knowledge, or used in another system, then you will be able to identify the cause of the difference through measurement.

In audio, no measurable difference is no difference.

Wouldn't that depend on the measuring device as well ? key word there being "Audio" and the best measuring device would be a brain and ears. But if you put 100% of your trust in a device that may contradict what you hear and still try and convince yourself it sounds good then good luck enjoying this hobby ! Now don't get me wrong, just to be safe and as a check and balance I sometimes use measurements to explain why a piece of gear may sound good to my ears or doesn't , but in the end, I will never let a set of measurements dictate to me what I like or dislike as you're now in the realm of too many variables on the accuracy of the device and the one using it , some one just might be having a bad day wink.gif

The brain is not a measuring device, sorry. What you describe is the very definition of "subjective."

If you can hear the difference with your brain removed from the circuit, then the difference will be measurable.

The only way to remove your brain from the circuit is for you to not be "listening for" something specific. For you to not know whether that magic cable is acturally present or not.

Again, I am not in any way denying that people are hearing differences. Different cables do have different electrical behavior that can cause audible differences. These differences are measurable.

It's also been demonstrated that some people enjoy a certain amount of distortion..

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post #464 of 646 Old 06-22-2013, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by rdclark View Post

The brain is not a measuring device, sorry. What you describe is the very definition of "subjective."

If you can hear the difference with your brain removed from the circuit, then the difference will be measurable.

The only way to remove your brain from the circuit is for you to not be "listening for" something specific. For you to not know whether that magic cable is acturally present or not.

Again, I am not in any way denying that people are hearing differences. Different cables do have different electrical behavior that can cause audible differences. These differences are measurable.

It's also been demonstrated that some people enjoy a certain amount of distortion..

I'll agree to most of what you said except the brain not being an measuring device even when not perceiving or listening to something specific, the brain is measuring distance, canceling distortion and many things we probably aren't aware of.

you don't think to breath do you? or regulate the heart beats per second? but this can become subjective when one intently try's to override said functions by calming down or taking shorter or longer breaths!

you should give your brain more credit than you do as it will always be the SOTA!
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post #465 of 646 Old 06-22-2013, 12:42 PM
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If these are real audible differences, then something is wrong with either your comparison method (e.g, not blind, not level-matched, DSP n effect on one but not both), or your setup (something broken, grossly mismatched, or badly designed on purpose)


sorry man, wish it was that simple :

jriver mediacenter running wasapi to my dac.

i use the same file twice, one on a internal esata hard drive, one on a usb stick, in the same playlist, and today my wife was toggling while i was blind and i could say wich was wich...

i don't seem to be alone on this matter, and i also tend to say that on the usb stick, it sounds a little better, the most noticable difference lies in the bass though, this is what makes me spot it, the bass from usb is better then from hdd.

i have in no way any idea if there is a mistake in my system, but generally when a hard disk fails it doesn't work at all, same for usb, so beats me
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post #466 of 646 Old 06-22-2013, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdclark View Post

The brain is not a measuring device, sorry. What you describe is the very definition of "subjective."

If you can hear the difference with your brain removed from the circuit, then the difference will be measurable.

The only way to remove your brain from the circuit is for you to not be "listening for" something specific. For you to not know whether that magic cable is acturally present or not.

Again, I am not in any way denying that people are hearing differences. Different cables do have different electrical behavior that can cause audible differences. These differences are measurable.

It's also been demonstrated that some people enjoy a certain amount of distortion..

I'll agree to most of what you said except the brain not being an measuring device even when not perceiving or listening to something specific, the brain is measuring distance, canceling distortion and many things we probably aren't aware of.

you don't think to breath do you? or regulate the heart beats per second? but this can become subjective when one intently try's to override said functions by calming down or taking shorter or longer breaths!

you should give your brain more credit than you do as it will always be the SOTA!

Brains cannot be calibrated or generate consistently reproducible data. I am not arguing the power of the human brain to evaluate complex sets of stimuli, process them, and reach conclusions. But that is not "measurement."

I've already clearly stated my position on this. I hate repeating myself.

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post #467 of 646 Old 06-22-2013, 01:58 PM
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Brains cannot be calibrated or generate consistently reproducable data. I am not arguing the power of the human brain to evaluate complex sets of stimuli, process the, and reach conclusions. .

Inter-variability!

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post #468 of 646 Old 06-22-2013, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdclark View Post

Brains cannot be calibrated or generate consistently reproducable data. I am not arguing the power of the human brain to evaluate complex sets of stimuli, process the, and reach conclusions. .

Inter-variability!

Exactly. A spectrum analyzer doesn't produce different results based on how much coffee it's had today.

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post #469 of 646 Old 06-22-2013, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by denkiedenk View Post


sorry man, wish it was that simple :

jriver mediacenter running wasapi to my dac.

i use the same file twice, one on a internal esata hard drive, one on a usb stick, in the same playlist, and today my wife was toggling while i was blind and i could say wich was wich...

i don't seem to be alone on this matter, and i also tend to say that on the usb stick, it sounds a little better, the most noticable difference lies in the bass though, this is what makes me spot it, the bass from usb is better then from hdd.

i have in no way any idea if there is a mistake in my system, but generally when a hard disk fails it doesn't work at all, same for usb, so beats me

eek.gif

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post #470 of 646 Old 06-22-2013, 07:30 PM
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i don't seem to be alone on this matter, and i also tend to say that on the usb stick, it sounds a little better, the most noticable difference lies in the bass though, this is what makes me spot it, the bass from usb is better then from hdd.
 

You just need a better cable from the hdd to the motherboard.

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Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #471 of 646 Old 06-23-2013, 12:03 AM
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Exactly. A spectrum analyzer doesn't produce different results based on how much coffee it's had today.

Neither will account for variables unless its programed to look for it biggrin.gif
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post #472 of 646 Old 06-23-2013, 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by rdclark View Post

The brain is not a measuring device, sorry. What you describe is the very definition of "subjective."

If you can hear the difference with your brain removed from the circuit, then the difference will be measurable.

The only way to remove your brain from the circuit is for you to not be "listening for" something specific. For you to not know whether that magic cable is acturally present or not.

Again, I am not in any way denying that people are hearing differences. Different cables do have different electrical behavior that can cause audible differences. These differences are measurable.

It's also been demonstrated that some people enjoy a certain amount of distortion..

Your posts are spot on, well said.

The "brain games" reference was a good documentary example of how a persons perception can be manipulated. Nothing wrong with that, that how we evolved.
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post #473 of 646 Old 06-23-2013, 06:59 AM
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You just need a better cable from the hdd to the motherboard.
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lmfao, audiophile esata cables lmfao times 2
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You just need a better cable from the hdd to the motherboard.
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You hit the nail on the head LOLOLOL cool.gif

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post #475 of 646 Old 06-23-2013, 01:13 PM
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Yes I am thinking to rewire my entire house with 100% pure silver cable, including all my electronic equipment especially those made on China!

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post #477 of 646 Old 06-23-2013, 06:25 PM
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These are always such interesting discussions to have, just like do all amps sound the same, if subs have the same frequency response they will sound the same and so on and so forth. People who are not into this hobby think we are ALL nuts for what we spend and what we hear or perceive to hear.

This is one of those "To each his own" arguments that will just go on and on and on and on. Does it really make a difference in my life if my neighbor spends $20K on cables for his system? Just as long as he didn't borrow the money from me wink.gif

Would you care if you wandered into one of the "All amps sound the same" threads WSE and they mocked you for having Classe amps? There argument could be that Emotiva Monoblocks would sound the same for a fraction of the cost, maybe they do maybe they don't, does it matter to you?
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post #478 of 646 Old 06-24-2013, 10:10 AM
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Yes I am thinking to rewire my entire house with 100% pure silver cable, including all my electronic equipment especially those made on China!

Be sure to get CL rated and UL approved.biggrin.gif
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post #479 of 646 Old 06-25-2013, 11:47 AM
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This is one of those "To each his own" arguments that will just go on and on and on and on. Does it really make a difference in my life if my neighbor spends $20K on cables for his system? Just as long as he didn't borrow the money from me wink.gif
Agreed!


Would you care if you wandered into one of the "All amps sound the same" threads WSE and they mocked you for having Classe amps? There argument could be that Emotiva Monoblocks would sound the same for a fraction of the cost, maybe they do maybe they don't, does it matter to you?
Don't talk to me about Emotiva they are the worst, I tried!

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post #480 of 646 Old 06-25-2013, 12:13 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Chicago
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

Don't talk to me about Emotiva they are the worst, I tried!

care to elaborate on emotiva amps?

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