Is the End of Physical Media Inevitable? - Page 22 - AVS Forum
View Poll Results: Is the End of Physical Media Inevitable?
Yes, physical media will quickly disappear altogether 23 2.17%
Yes, physical media will slowly disappear altogether 198 18.64%
No, new physical formats will continue to be developed 370 34.84%
No, but physical media will become a niche market for enthusiasts 471 44.35%
Voters: 1062. You may not vote on this poll

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post #631 of 920 Old 04-28-2013, 03:52 PM
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I have zero interest in wasting time trying to find some crap pirated videos. Those warez kiddies are incompetent when it comes to encoding.

At my other hangout we get one-post wonders asking questions like the following all the time:

"OMG, I just downloaded a great quality 1 GB 720p BD rip of (insert latest blockbuster title here). How do they do it?"

Before the lock, answers are usually along the following lines:

1) It's not great quality and you're a moron.
2) What are you watching this on, a 4" screen?
3) Didn't read the forum rules on warez, did you?

And I just don't see how piracy benefits the law abiding consumer, as was mentioned earlier. Not at all.
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post #632 of 920 Old 04-28-2013, 05:32 PM
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What piracy does is pressure providers on pricing, amount of DRM, etc. It's a mixed bag. For example, I don't appreciate pirates who rip movies and share them on the internet, but I also don't appreciate studios hobbling my media so that I can't make a backup of it.

Look at it this way. They fought piracy of VHS tapes for years (over a decade) using a variety of techniques, but by the end of VHS, you could buy a VHS duplicator, completely legally, that defeated any of the copy protections that were present on the VHS tape.

I'm only interested in backing up or changing the medium of stuff I've purchased. The studios don't think I should even be able to do that... in their eyes I'm a "pirate" even though I buy all of my stuff.
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post #633 of 920 Old 04-28-2013, 06:40 PM
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Physical media can't end. Distributing movies and TV shows over the Internet is going to to choke the Internet.
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post #634 of 920 Old 04-28-2013, 06:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fritzi93 View Post

I have zero interest in wasting time trying to find some crap pirated videos. Those warez kiddies are incompetent when it comes to encoding.

...

And I just don't see how piracy benefits the law abiding consumer, as was mentioned earlier. Not at all.

Your first statement is rather uninformed, since many of those "warez kiddies" probably have much better knowledge of encoding than you and in fact most popular titles are available at very high bitrates, ripped by the same "warez kiddies."

Your second statement shows rather poor understanding of the industry.

The law abiding consumer benefits from piracy because piracy is the main reason prices for both digital and physical media are not double and triple of what they are today. Steve Jobs famous battles with clueless music executives who demanded $2.99 per song are rather instructive, as are the fantasy prices initially planned for all digital media.

Technically, circumventing DRM even for your own backup is a crime in many, if not most, jurisdictions, so if you have ever personally ripped a DVD or a BR, or stripped DRM from a single song, you have forfeited your claim of being a "law-abiding consumer."

This might be illuminating as well: http://piracy.americanassembly.org/where-do-music-collections-come-from/
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post #635 of 920 Old 04-28-2013, 08:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan1 View Post

Your first statement is rather uninformed, since many of those "warez kiddies" probably have much better knowledge of encoding than you and in fact most popular titles are available at very high bitrates, ripped by the same "warez kiddies."

Your second statement shows rather poor understanding of the industry.

The law abiding consumer benefits from piracy because piracy is the main reason prices for both digital and physical media are not double and triple of what they are today. Steve Jobs famous battles with clueless music executives who demanded $2.99 per song are rather instructive, as are the fantasy prices initially planned for all digital media.

Technically, circumventing DRM even for your own backup is a crime in many, if not most, jurisdictions, so if you have ever personally ripped a DVD or a BR, or stripped DRM from a single song, you have forfeited your claim of being a "law-abiding consumer."

This might be illuminating as well: http://piracy.americanassembly.org/where-do-music-collections-come-from/

I have plenty of experience with encoding, and am a veteran at videohelp. Ask for the opinions of members there about the quality of the vast majority of pirated encodes..
Or try posting that at Doom9, where the x.264 developers hang out.

As for the rest, nonsense.
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post #636 of 920 Old 04-29-2013, 01:26 AM
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Technically, he is correct.

Format shifting, as it is known, differs from one jurisdiction to another in how it is treated under copyright law.

For example, in the USA as far as I'm aware you are permitted to make backup copies, or to shift format you personally own from one format to another but not if this means you have to defeat a copy-protection or encryption system of any sort.

Australian copyright law was amended about five years ago with similar clauses.

In the UK and mainly thanks to our membership of the ghastly European Union, we have some of the strictest copyright law in the world. Backup copies are not allowed (you are suposed to go to the original provider and ask them to take back the damaged copy in exchange for a new one!); format shifting is not allowed under any circumstances, not even when there is no DRM involved.

So strictly speaking, in the UK millions of people break the law every day when they rip a CD and then copy it to a portable device.

The same is true of people who rip their DVD's and BluRays to hard-drives - almost anywhere, including the US.

But then, technically speaking, it was always illegal to record and keep a TV broadcast.

The only real piracy the industry is interested in is when people make copies and then offer them to others, either free or for a charge. And practicaily (and public relations) usually mean that even here, they are only going to prosecute people who do it on a large scale.

No one has ever been prosecuted in the UK for copying music from a CD to an MP3 player - although an advertising form was prosecuted for encouraging people to do it as "incitement to break the law"

Uk law is due for amendment in the autumn of this year to make format shifing legal.
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post #637 of 920 Old 04-29-2013, 03:00 AM
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Here in the US it's not illegal to rip CD's, and as far as I know CD's here don't use DRM. DVD's are a different story, and ripping or copying anything with DRM is illegal, even for personal use.
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post #638 of 920 Old 04-29-2013, 03:30 AM
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Quite. It's the breaking of DRM of any sort that is the problem in the USA. European copyright law is much tougher and simply forbids copying, DRM or not. However, many countries are now modifying their laws to allow for format shifting, presumably because the practise is so widespread and so many devices use it that as the classic saying goes - the law gave every appearance of being an ass.

As I said, strictly speaking, recording a TV show was always a violation of copyright; you were without doubt making an unauthorised copy.
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post #639 of 920 Old 04-29-2013, 03:37 AM
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It possibly could get that strict here. That's one reason why I'm for physical media hanging around awhile. The government and movie people really need to stay of our lives.
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post #640 of 920 Old 04-29-2013, 05:15 AM
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All this talk about the legality of ripping a Blu-ray or DVD. Well, the archived copy is legal! The task of making the rip is illegal, but so is speeding down the highway at 5 miles an hour over the limit! So long as the backup copy itself is not illegal, it's like driving your car somewhere and breaking the speed limit along the way. Everyone does it, and for the most part cops ignore it.


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post #641 of 920 Old 04-29-2013, 05:29 AM
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I'm with you Mark, but it still doesn't make it legal. That said, I've never heard of anyone being arrested for archiving their DVD's.
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post #642 of 920 Old 04-29-2013, 06:01 AM
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Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

I'm with you Mark, but it still doesn't make it legal. That said, I've never heard of anyone being arrested for archiving their DVD's.

Don't ask, don't tell is the official policy of the industry. You know what record companies do? They send unreleased music to DJs (who are arguably the number one reason physical media will not go away) and encourage its inclusion on mix tapes even though the act of doing so is a copyright violation.

 

Lawyers like the current arrangement because it makes it very easy to prosecute pirates. There really are no exceptions that could be used as a defense; like you have 50,000 friends and you are only loaning out your music or movies or something like that.

 

Right to privacy is what makes it possible to archive disk-based media that has DRM protection. I actually chat about this all the time because just about everyone on my wife's side of the family is a lawyer. Criminal defense and contract law, Manhattan-based, so this stuff literally comes up at family dinner on holidays.

 

I made the analogy to driving, because sometimes when I am on the New Jersey Turnpike I realize that I am one of tens of thousands of cars, all simultaneously breaking the law. It allows the police to pick and choose who they want to interrogate and/or issue fines to. More often than not, on I-95, someone who is obviously attempting to obey the law is the person who sticks out like a sore thumb — by going 55 when everyone else is going 75 or 80.


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post #643 of 920 Old 04-29-2013, 06:45 AM
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You are right, in many parts of the country it is russian roulette as far as who gets picked up for speeding. However, AFAIK no one in the US has ever been successfully prosecuted for backing up their own media. What they are interested in is online sharing of their content or selling bootleg copies... so it's not really an accurate analogy.

Frankly I don't think they are stupid enough to try to prosecute someone for breaking copyright protections to back up their own purchased media, because they would get their asses handed to them in court. What they are worried about is DMCA being deemed unconstitutional when it comes to putting it up against right of first use, and that could open the flood gates for commercial products that make it quick and painless for consumers to back their own media up. The studios don't want you to back up your content, they want you to re-buy your content, either on a new format or simply to replace bad media.
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post #644 of 920 Old 04-29-2013, 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

You are right, in many parts of the country it is russian roulette as far as who gets picked up for speeding. However, AFAIK no one in the US has ever been successfully prosecuted for backing up their own media. What they are interested in is online sharing of their content or selling bootleg copies... so it's not really an accurate analogy.

 

I was trying not to be too explicit, but basically what the cops do on the road is use the fact that everyone is speeding to pick out the ones they think are smuggling drugs/illegal immigrants/Chinese cigarettes... whatever. They are the ones who get stopped, then searched. Other than that, the police are only looking for people who are speeding at an exceptional rate or are driving erratically. Without that initial illegality, the speeding, then the stop itself would not be legal in many cases.

 

Right to privacy is what prevents the music and movie police from doing something similar to that in people's homes. But, if you share that online, then it's like you're out on the highway speeding. The investigation can proceed from the simple assumption that the law was broken because of the mere existence of a ripped copy, that was then shared. If the studio cops look in your trunk and they find that you have 50,000 friends with whom you shared a copy of the hobbit, you owe somebody a ton of money and might even be spending some time in a small room with a very crappy TV... and no physical media whatsoever.


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post #645 of 920 Old 04-29-2013, 08:04 AM
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I am not going to defend the action of pirates. However, getting back to the topic at hand, an advantage of physical media over streaming/downloadable media is that with my physical media I can share legally my physical media with whoever I want, and even sell it later if I decide I no longer want the title.

Even laser discs, which are in nearly all cases horribly inferior to their DVD and BD counterparts have value as used items. Especially in the case of special/collector editions or special cuts of the film that are no longer available in any other format.
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post #646 of 920 Old 04-29-2013, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

I am not going to defend the action of pirates. However, getting back to the topic at hand, an advantage of physical media over streaming/downloadable media is that with my physical media I can share legally my physical media with whoever I want, and even sell it later if I decide I no longer want the title.

Even laser discs, which are in nearly all cases horribly inferior to their DVD and BD counterparts have value as used items. Especially in the case of special/collector editions or special cuts of the film that are no longer available in any other format.

 

Isn't the biggest problem with those out-of-print versions the fact that they are tied to obsolete physical media? I only have a very few movies that fit into that category. Laurie Anderson's Home of the Brave, and Salome's Last Dance, by Ken Russell were two examples. It cost me over $100 to get a copy of each of those off of eBay. Now, Home of the Brave is on YouTube for free. Oh well, Mostly I'm happy that other people get to experience that incredible concert video.

 

And Salome's Last Dance, well let's just say that that would be the "number one" request I have for re-releasing something on Blu-ray

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post #647 of 920 Old 04-29-2013, 08:36 AM
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They are not tied to obsolete media if you take the time to convert them to a different format. Bravo for YouTube but I have my doubts about YouTube being any kind of archive. Good luck with certain things still being available in 5 years let alone 10.

I was thinking of your "use once" argument last night. My wife and I frequently tire of what's on network TV and fall back to our local collection of media. She was watching that "Pitch Perfect" cheese fest for probably the fifth time in as many months.
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post #648 of 920 Old 04-29-2013, 08:58 AM
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They are not tied to obsolete media if you take the time to convert them to a different format. Bravo for YouTube but I have my doubts about YouTube being any kind of archive. Good luck with certain things still being available in 5 years let alone 10.

I was thinking of your "use once" argument last night. My wife and I frequently tire of what's on network TV and fall back to our local collection of media. She was watching that "Pitch Perfect" cheese fest for probably the fifth time in as many months.

Well, there are YouTube downloaders. No doubt about it, if I see something out-of-print on YouTube I'm grabbing it. I think we can all agree that it would be great if there was a project to archive all known movies that enjoyed any kind of commercial release, and can still be read off of their original format. To digitally preserve as much of cinematic history as possible.


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post #649 of 920 Old 04-29-2013, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Well, there are YouTube downloaders. No doubt about it, if I see something out-of-print on YouTube I'm grabbing it. I think we can all agree that it would be great if there was a project to archive all known movies that enjoyed any kind of commercial release, and can still be read off of their original format. To digitally preserve as much of cinematic history as possible.

That would be great but it's against the aim of studios or other copyright holders... who in many cases have insisted on extending the copyright of works that are over 75 years old by lobbying Congress to do so. They'd rather see some old works destroyed than allow them to be archived and made free to the masses. Should Disney's very first cartoon be something with a copyright or should it be made public domain as it's part of the American Experience?

I'll put it this way. If I wouldn't trust archiving family videos and photos to an internet service (and I won't) then I'm not going to trust them to protect the movies I love so that I can watch them whenever I want.

Maybe if there was a "consumer bill of rights" that forced them to make backups and make those backups available in the event they go bust I would have a different opinion.

Facebook is working very hard to break down any sense of privacy in the newer generation, who in most cases have no problem sharing amounts of personal information on the Internet that most of us over 35 blush at the thought of being public. It's only a matter of time before when you agree to terms of service for Facebook, Instagram, etc, that all of your movies photos, private papers are in fact handed over to them... you give them permission to use those materials in exchange for the privilege of using their service. In fact Instagram already tried it but got smacked.
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post #650 of 920 Old 04-29-2013, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by fritzi93 View Post

I have plenty of experience with encoding, and am a veteran at videohelp. Ask for the opinions of members there about the quality of the vast majority of pirated encodes..
Or try posting that at Doom9, where the x.264 developers hang out.

As for the rest, nonsense.

Would you care to elaborate, other than on your "plenty of experience" claim?

Again, if it wasn't for piracy, you wouldn't have iTunes, or Spotify, or MOG, or probably even Netflix streaming. Or, you would be paying $3 per a DRM-ed song and $50+ for a Bluray. Really. Because this is what the studios wanted.

Piracy is the big stick Steve Jobs took to the negotiating table, as well as Spotify's Sean Parker (notably, formally of Napster fame) and piracy is the only way they convinced the music industry that it should let them charge much less than the initial demands.

Piracy is what has reduced the formerly large discrepancies in release time for different geographic markets and different media.

BTW, I actually went out and checked the posted specks of a recent release done by those "warez kiddies" that you seem to scoff at, and here is what they say:

Duration: 2:49:37.208 (h: m: s.ms)
Size: 41002647552 bytes
Bitrate: 32.23 Mbps

Maybe they know something you don't.

I am obviously not advocating piracy, but merely pointing out that if it disappeared suddenly, the average law-abiding consumer would likely feel the pain rather quickly both in terms of price and availability.
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post #651 of 920 Old 04-30-2013, 10:07 AM
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I've been a serious video hobbyist for a couple decades, and transitioned to digital video starting about 12 years ago, starting with VCDS and SVCDs. Then DVDs when burners were going for a couple hundred bucks per. Mostly capturing video tapes to intermediate lossless, filtering using Avisynth scripts and encoding to save to optical disc. Then AVCHD/Blu-Ray about a year after the standards were set.

But anybody can say whatever they like. What is *YOUR* experience? Not that I care one whit.

I've seen some of the better pirated stuff, from Russian sites purporting to be legit. It's encoded to target size without exception, to BD5/9. Quality based is a better way to go if one must re-encode. And most pirated video is not nearly as good.

You're entitled to your opinion in regard to piracy benefiting the consumer. I don't happen to share it.
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post #652 of 920 Old 04-30-2013, 10:16 AM
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Not movie related, but as a member of ASCAP, BMI, SOCAN and KCI (hence being a recepient of royaly $$), I'm completely against piracy. mad.gif

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post #653 of 920 Old 05-01-2013, 06:27 AM
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http://www.theverge.com/2013/4/30/4287902/netflix-losing-almost-1800-titles-from-its-streaming-library-starting-tomorrow
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Netflix may have more original programming coming in the months ahead, but the company is also going to be losing quite a few titles as well. According to InstantWatcher, a site that catalogs the comings and goings of Netflix's streaming catalog, the service will be saying farewell to 1,794 different titles in May. That number includes 15 seasons of South Park, old horror movies like Audrey Rose, and James Bond classics like Dr. No and Goldfinger. According to Slate, the drop comes because several licensing deals Netflix has in place with studios like MGM, Warner Bros., and Universal are expiring.

Looky here!
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post #654 of 920 Old 05-01-2013, 07:42 AM
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Just like I've been harping on about through the whole argument then....

I wonder how many people sold their DVD copies of this sort of stuff whilst blithely telling other people "Oh, of course, I can always watch it on Netflix, whenever I want..."
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post #655 of 920 Old 05-01-2013, 07:48 AM
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Welcome to the New World Order, in which you will have to subscribe to a pile of services to get access to ALL the content.
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post #656 of 920 Old 05-01-2013, 07:52 AM
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Welcome to the New World Order, in which you will have to subscribe to a pile of services to get access to ALL the content.

I took a stab at sorting out that mess: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1470753/netflix-to-nix-1800-titles


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post #657 of 920 Old 05-01-2013, 08:15 AM
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I took a stab at sorting out that mess: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1470753/netflix-to-nix-1800-titles

Well, it's great that you highlighted it and broke the news so to speak, but I don't think it's sorted in any way shape or form.

The reality is that fragmentation is almost definitely a certainty. I don't think it's going to be a concern for the typical user, but for the "enthusiast" it is going to get expensive to subscribe to streaming services that have everything they want, not to mention that every time contracts expire the picture is going to change.

This is EXACTLY why for the small amount of content I really care about, I want a physical copy to fall back on... because a contract isn't going to be pulled and render that copy unusable because someone gets greedy.
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post #658 of 920 Old 05-01-2013, 08:22 AM
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Well, it's great that you highlighted it and broke the news so to speak, but I don't think it's sorted in any way shape or form.

The reality is that fragmentation is almost definitely a certainty. I don't think it's going to be a concern for the typical user, but for the "enthusiast" it is going to get expensive to subscribe to streaming services that have everything they want, not to mention that every time contracts expire the picture is going to change.

This is EXACTLY why for the small amount of content I really care about, I want a physical copy to fall back on... because a contract isn't going to be pulled and render that copy unusable because someone gets greedy.

 

I totally agree, not sorted out in the slightest. I concur, I am no fan of getting my media from a subscription service. I don't use Netflix, not sure why I'm giving them money right now. If I don't watch their shows, there is little value to their product. 
 
I'm still pretty satisfied with Apple, I'm willing to gamble that the movies I purchased from them will be playable for a long time to come. I have taken to buying my favorite movies on Blu-ray.

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post #659 of 920 Old 05-01-2013, 08:27 AM
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I totally agree, not sorted out in the slightest. I concur, I am no fan of getting my media from a subscription service. I don't use Netflix, not sure why I'm giving the money right now. If I don't watch their shows, there is no value.
 
I'm still pretty satisfied with Apple, I'm willing to gamble that the movies I purchased from them will be playable for a long time to come. I have taken to buying my favorite movies on Blu-ray.

I agree that Apple is in a very strong position, but you are still subject to losing your purchases or having to re-purchase them if the landscape changes. You also currently don't have the ability to make a backup copy of movies you "purchased" from iTunes. My biggest issue with iTunes movies is that, unlike music, their video purchases can only be played on iDevices. I don't want to have to put an ATV in every room of my house, and always have to carry an iPhone to watch my videos. 5 years from now Apple hardware could be irrelevant and all those purchases would effectively be worthless.

I had hoped early on that Apple would be able to work the same voodoo magic that they worked on the music industry and convince them that sans DRM copies were the way to go, but the movie industry isn't going for it (while absurdly claiming that every pirate download is a "lost sale" just like the music industry tried to claim). Steve is dead, and he's probably one of the only people who could have made it happen.
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post #660 of 920 Old 05-01-2013, 03:35 PM
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I totally agree, not sorted out in the slightest. I concur, I am no fan of getting my media from a subscription service. I don't use Netflix, not sure why I'm giving them money right now. If I don't watch their shows, there is little value to their product. 
 
I'm still pretty satisfied with Apple, I'm willing to gamble that the movies I purchased from them will be playable for a long time to come. I have taken to buying my favorite movies on Blu-ray.

I guess you are the dream consumer for the content providers. They have been trying to kill streaming services like Netflix, so that then they can milk you (and me) $3 for each episode you watch, or $7 per movie.

Because it is naive to think that if subscription services like Netflix (for movies) and MOG and Spotify (for music) go away, the studios will keep physical media around.

There is a reason why they claim that you do not own the content and it is because they want you to pay per view. They can't easily do this with physical media.

But if they choke Netflix and the likes, then there WILL come a day when you will find that the latest content becomes available ONLY on iTunes, or on HBO-Go, or whatever proprietary, overpriced and DRM-ladden sites the studios come up with.

Frankly, the only reasons why this day may not come is if they cannot completely choke off piracy, or the content providers break up (although the trend is clearly toward consolidation and don't expect Congress to stop it).

To reiterate, the studios do not want you to use Netflix (that's why they are not renewing agreements, going to iTunes, Amazon Prime and their own sites) -- they would rather stay in bed with the cable cos and pay per view resellers.

But, they do not like physical media either -- and the day will come, when they will force you to stream, just not on your terms the way it is with Netflix now, but on theirs.
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