Is the End of Physical Media Inevitable? - Page 7 - AVS Forum
View Poll Results: Is the End of Physical Media Inevitable?
Yes, physical media will quickly disappear altogether 23 2.16%
Yes, physical media will slowly disappear altogether 198 18.63%
No, new physical formats will continue to be developed 371 34.90%
No, but physical media will become a niche market for enthusiasts 471 44.31%
Voters: 1063. You may not vote on this poll

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post #181 of 920 Old 04-11-2013, 07:25 AM
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As Paul Harvey used to say, "It's not one world". To have physical media replaced by streaming services requires not only a revamp of the distribution system, but also a revamp of who owns what for distribution. My maximum speed for DSL through the local phone company is 25 Mbps. I'm having it installed next week. That's barely enough speed for the new Netflix 3D and UHD streaming services. Upgrading to an even higher bandwidth would require the city to spend many Millions of dollars for no return. So, not going to happen. Content here in Canada is controlled by various media companies, so a unified service like you get in the US is highly unlikely. I imagine it's like that around the world. Users of Netflix in Canada have been using IP changer services for a long time to access Netflix's US (and other countries) content as there is no other solution for this country. Sales of DVDs may be on the decline in other areas but there are still a lot of sales out here in the hinterlands. Blu ray isn't universal though many of my friends are finally starting to upgrade once the basic player cost went down low enough for their budgets. I really think people have to think about what goes on in a lot of other countries and not just the US. But that's another story...
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post #182 of 920 Old 04-11-2013, 07:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post

We'll see. I went on a downloading run now just in case. I'm hoping they'll just get rid of the cap entirely, at least for those of us paying $10/mo more for Blast!

Here's what residential customers have to look forward to:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-57436489-93/comcast-ditches-250gb-data-cap-tests-tiered-pricing/

http://www.firstcoastnews.com/topstories/article/276426/483/Cable-companies-cap-data-use-for-revenue

Of course there's always Comcast Business Class.

Looky here!
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post #183 of 920 Old 04-11-2013, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by boblinds View Post

The content providers will push and push and push streaming and downloadable media until physical media has been eradicated. Then they can completely control the dissemination of their content to ensure that you can't own it and can access it only in those contexts they deem acceptable, profitable, and convenient...for THEM. This issue has nothing to do with technology or quality. It's all about the studios and producers controlling their IP and, ultimately, charging for every viewing.

This. Exactly.

We might all care about sound/video quality but Joe Six Pack (or even my wife and kids) doesn't care. I still catch them watching the SD channels even though there's an HD channel too. My neighbor too. They could care less about it being hooked to an AVR and the little DTS-MA light coming on. They'd be fine with sound through the TV's speakers. As a matter of fact, I am the only one I know who has their TV hooked to an AVR. I don't even think any of my neighbors except the one guy with a PS3 has a Blu-ray player.

 

 

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post #184 of 920 Old 04-11-2013, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StardogChampion View Post

This. Exactly.

We might all care about sound/video quality but Joe Six Pack (or even my wife and kids) doesn't care. I still catch them watching the SD channels even though there's an HD channel too. My neighbor too. They could care less about it being hooked to an AVR and the little DTS-MA light coming on. They'd be fine with sound through the TV's speakers. As a matter of fact, I am the only one I know who has their TV hooked to an AVR. I don't even think any of my neighbors except the one guy with a PS3 has a Blu-ray player.

I'm inclined to agree, but there's another angle. Physical sale of discs is still a hugely profitable business for studios. Discs cost nearly zero to manufacture package and ship and the profit margins are enormous on them.

I think that BD might very well be the last physical format, but we'll see use of it expanded to 4K 3D very soon.... it will survive for quite a while as a media format for collectors and enthusiasts if nothing else.
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post #185 of 920 Old 04-11-2013, 12:34 PM
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I hope not. I like having physical media. I like owning a movie that I can do what ever I want with it. Screw these companies who try and make me buy a digital download. I have an idea. Start making movies that have a good plot and story, then maybe they can charge a little more for the disk. Or, lower the wages to some of these actors so they make more profit.

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post #186 of 920 Old 04-11-2013, 12:47 PM
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I hope not. I like having physical media. I like owning a movie that I can do what ever I want with it. Screw these companies who try and make me buy a digital download. I have an idea. Start making movies that have a good plot and story, then maybe they can charge a little more for the disk. Or, lower the wages to some of these actors so they make more profit.

Ditto. However, they'd just pay the countless producers that jump on board these gravy trains even more. Want to make money and do virtually nothing on a film project? Get a producers credit. biggrin.gif

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #187 of 920 Old 04-11-2013, 02:33 PM
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I think Physical media will be here for a bit longer. Like it or not DVD plays still outrank blu ray in homes, also the new formats coming the 4k formats will have to launch first on a
physical disk because the infrastructure for streaming such hi res video is not there yet for many people. For myself my disk buying for movies has definitely slowed, and when I do buy a new blu ray or
DVD I usually end up ripping it to my server and storing the disk.

In collections right? Of course, since it's been around for a while. I'm sure Blu-ray is way outselling DVD on new sales, so over time, people's collections will shift to Blu-Ray.
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Here's what residential customers have to look forward to:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-57436489-93/comcast-ditches-250gb-data-cap-tests-tiered-pricing/

http://www.firstcoastnews.com/topstories/article/276426/483/Cable-companies-cap-data-use-for-revenue

Of course there's always Comcast Business Class.

That may be the case. We'll have to see. There's always business class or moving to Rhode Island I guess, where they have unlimited 80/40 on FIOS.

EDIT: As of today, I'm at 1028GB.

EDIT2: Based on that article, it looks like Blast! has a 450GB cap. For legal use, that's tough to hit, and if you are hitting it, you're paying so much more in fees for the content than overages from Comcast. I don't like the idea of metered bandwidth, but practically speaking, that model isn't that bad.
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This. Exactly.

We might all care about sound/video quality but Joe Six Pack (or even my wife and kids) doesn't care. I still catch them watching the SD channels even though there's an HD channel too. My neighbor too. They could care less about it being hooked to an AVR and the little DTS-MA light coming on. They'd be fine with sound through the TV's speakers. As a matter of fact, I am the only one I know who has their TV hooked to an AVR. I don't even think any of my neighbors except the one guy with a PS3 has a Blu-ray player.

Yeah, I'm surprised how many people don't seem to give a crap. TV speakers are an atrocity these days, and yet no one seems to care. An AVR even improves SD/DVD content.
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I'm inclined to agree, but there's another angle. Physical sale of discs is still a hugely profitable business for studios. Discs cost nearly zero to manufacture package and ship and the profit margins are enormous on them.

I think that BD might very well be the last physical format, but we'll see use of it expanded to 4K 3D very soon.... it will survive for quite a while as a media format for collectors and enthusiasts if nothing else.

I'm not convinced 4k will catch on at all. "mastered in 4k" Blu-rays may be the end of the line, as considering how many people don't seem to care about HD, selling the masses on 4K is going to be really, really tough when 4k is pushing the limits of the human eyes to see the difference between that and a "mastered in 4k" 1080p BD disk. The other issue is that if you have to sit 5 feet away from a giant TV to see 4k, it looks HORRIBLE when you switch to over-compressed cable. I'm pushing how close I can get and not get pissed off at Comcast's compression, and as a result, I'm not close enough to even get everything out of high-quality BD/ HDX movies.
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post #188 of 920 Old 04-11-2013, 02:46 PM
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Oh, not this BS again about needing to sit 5' away from a giant TV to see 4K advantage.

Yesterday and today Sony Canada did a comparison on two 65" TV. One is playing HD, the other is playing the same feed but upscaled to 4k (not even native 4k. Both screens were located 8ft away from the nearest seats, and 100% of the viewers of hundreds of dealers, journalists can easily tell which is which.

Again, this is only a 65" screen from 8'-16' away playing only upscaled blu-ray (Adele concert, to be exact).

So much with your theory of needing to sit 5' away from a giant screen. 65" is not giant and even people who are standing 16' away can accurately tell the difference between HD and upscaled 4k.

On the other side of the room, Sony projected 130' native 4K video viewed from about 20' away and people still be able to see the advantage of 4K.

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post #189 of 920 Old 04-12-2013, 07:08 AM
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In 2011 a Sony manufacturing plant in NJ shut down - the closing blamed on declining demand which was basically blamed on Internet sales of music.

At some point, Microsoft will be practically forcing users to log into their servers to run their OS and Office software offerings. So no more pirated Excel, etc.
Quote:
Here's what residential customers have to look forward to:
Cellular providers have had tiered data plans for a long time. They have considerably less bandwidth to work with than landlines so it's sensible they imposed the restrictions early. But it's just a matter of time for your DSL or Cable to do the same.

So, if there is a tiered-plan mentality going forward, the viability of physical media will rebound somewhat, so hopefully it won't go away. For sure, those lower volumes will equal increased per-disk costs.
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post #190 of 920 Old 04-12-2013, 08:16 AM
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[quote name="BiggAW" I'm not convinced 4k will catch on at all. "mastered in 4k" Blu-rays may be the end of the line, as considering how many people don't seem to care about HD, selling the masses on 4K is going to be really, really tough when 4k is pushing the limits of the human eyes to see the difference between that and a "mastered in 4k" 1080p BD disk. The other issue is that if you have to sit 5 feet away from a giant TV to see 4k, it looks HORRIBLE when you switch to over-compressed cable. I'm pushing how close I can get and not get pissed off at Comcast's compression, and as a result, I'm not close enough to even get everything out of high-quality BD/ HDX movies.[/quote]

I think you are missing the point. The critical mass doesn't buy thing because they can "see" the difference but becase the numbers are bigger. Most people can't tell the difference between 720p and 1080p and they still buy 1080p set becasue 1080>720.

The percived value is much more important to the critical mass than the actuall value of a product. Take antiseptic soap for example, is it really going to fight bacteria better than normal soap? Not but if the manufacturers say so, then antiseptic soap it is.
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post #191 of 920 Old 04-12-2013, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

Oh, not this BS again about needing to sit 5' away from a giant TV to see 4K advantage.

Yesterday and today Sony Canada did a comparison on two 65" TV. One is playing HD, the other is playing the same feed but upscaled to 4k (not even native 4k. Both screens were located 8ft away from the nearest seats, and 100% of the viewers of hundreds of dealers, journalists can easily tell which is which.

Again, this is only a 65" screen from 8'-16' away playing only upscaled blu-ray (Adele concert, to be exact).

So much with your theory of needing to sit 5' away from a giant screen. 65" is not giant and even people who are standing 16' away can accurately tell the difference between HD and upscaled 4k.

On the other side of the room, Sony projected 130' native 4K video viewed from about 20' away and people still be able to see the advantage of 4K.

I'm very skeptical. I think it can be appreciated in a home environment, but not at a distance that's far enough away to tolerate cable HD.
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[quote name="BiggAW" I'm not convinced 4k will catch on at all. "mastered in 4k" Blu-rays may be the end of the line, as considering how many people don't seem to care about HD, selling the masses on 4K is going to be really, really tough when 4k is pushing the limits of the human eyes to see the difference between that and a "mastered in 4k" 1080p BD disk. The other issue is that if you have to sit 5 feet away from a giant TV to see 4k, it looks HORRIBLE when you switch to over-compressed cable. I'm pushing how close I can get and not get pissed off at Comcast's compression, and as a result, I'm not close enough to even get everything out of high-quality BD/ HDX movies.

I think you are missing the point. The critical mass doesn't buy thing because they can "see" the difference but becase the numbers are bigger. Most people can't tell the difference between 720p and 1080p and they still buy 1080p set becasue 1080>720.

The percived value is much more important to the critical mass than the actuall value of a product. Take antiseptic soap for example, is it really going to fight bacteria better than normal soap? Not but if the manufacturers say so, then antiseptic soap it is.[/quote]

That could very well be the case. We'll see. If anything sells 4k, that's probably it. Oh god, another round of people not hooking up the right resolution stuff to their TV's!
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post #192 of 920 Old 04-12-2013, 03:11 PM
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To answer the OP directly yes, it is inevitable, however it will take much longer than people predict in most cases. All of the problems people list in this thread will be solved. Specifically we need someone to get some sort of multicast system for the internet going at a good rate. Multicast is essentially what Cable and TV do, broadcast a single message for many clients. Setting up a good system would solve a lot of our problems with media size. You want to watch the latest movie in HD, you have to wait for the multicast, if you want to see it now you pay, or watch in a more compressed form.

For me personally I ditched all my physical media, everything is loaded on a hard drive or streamed. its just so much easier and takes up so much less space that way. The movie industry will see the same progression the music industry saw.

4K is another issue entirely, but I think that it will enable us to get even bigger TVs, and use our TVs more as many people are as both a TV and a computer. many people already buy multiple monitors to increase real estate and a 4k 50 inch TV finally gets the dot pitch on a TV down to what is acceptable for a computer monitor.

All issues aside, really its the easy of not having to manage my library, and not having to waste space that makes virtual media so much better. Really a computer automatically sorts everything, no need to worry about if the kids didn't put the disk back in the right spot or someone left it in some random place, its even a good excuse to not allow others to borrow the disk, I don't have one.
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post #193 of 920 Old 04-12-2013, 03:31 PM
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Still no movie streams that are in DTS-HD Master Audio and still no music download as good as my discs. As far as the music downloads go, they will tell you they are 24 bit and they very well may be but the ones I've heard are no better than my red book CD's. I do have a bunch of my CD's ripped to FLAC on a hard drive and I can't tell the difference between the two.
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post #194 of 920 Old 04-12-2013, 04:00 PM
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Still no movie streams that are in DTS-HD Master Audio and still no music download as good as my discs. As far as the music downloads go, they will tell you they are 24 bit and they very well may be but the ones I've heard are no better than my red book CD's. I do have a bunch of my CD's ripped to FLAC on a hard drive and I can't tell the difference between the two.

Compression kills fidelity. Bit depth determines the noise floor. The noise floor determines dynamic range, but a CD has 100Db of DR, which is more than enough for everything we humans can safely listen to. A 44kHz sampling rate covers the full range the human ear can hear. At a fundemental level, you can't 'beat' a properly produced CD. I just came from the New York Audio Show, plenty of $100,000+ systems being auditioned, yet almost all the music came from CD or Vinyl. Nobody was concerned about 24/96 and whether it would make those rarified systems sound better. Lossy compression is the enemy. You will not hear an improvement from 16/44 to 24/96, if the music is properly mastered.
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post #195 of 920 Old 04-12-2013, 04:18 PM
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Compression kills fidelity. Bit depth determines the noise floor. The noise floor determines dynamic range, but a CD has 100Db of DR, which is more than enough for everything we humans can safely listen to. A 44kHz sampling rate covers the full range the human ear can hear. At a fundemental level, you can't 'beat' a properly produced CD. I just came from the New York Audio Show, plenty of $100,000+ systems being auditioned, yet almost all the music came from CD or Vinyl. Nobody was concerned about 24/96 and whether it would make those rarified systems sound better. Lossy compression is the enemy. You will not hear an improvement from 16/44 to 24/96, if the music is properly mastered.



I saw some of your pics from the show,very impressive. I guess there's no doubt about what they feel has better sound wink.gif
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post #196 of 920 Old 04-12-2013, 04:53 PM
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I saw some of your pics from the show,very impressive. I guess there's no doubt about what they feel has better sound wink.gif

That's impossible, I just got out of there... I have shared no pics at all! The last article with shots was Panasonic only, and a press event. This was a high-end audio show, open to the public. Most of it is was overpriced and underwhelming, but a few systems really stood out. Vinyl was definitely the most popular format, but it seems like all those high-end audiophile folks listen to nothing but plucked string instruments all day, with a smattering of orchestral music. I want my Com Truise.


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post #197 of 920 Old 04-12-2013, 04:59 PM
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That's impossible, I just got out of there... I have shared no pics at all! The last article with shots was Panasonic only, and a press event. This was a high-end audio show, open to the public. Most of it is was overpriced and underwhelming, but a few systems really stood out. Vinyl was definitely the most popular format, but it seems like all those high-end audiophile folks listen to nothing but plucked string instruments all day, with a smattering of orchestral music. I want my Com Truise.



My bad, I got them confused. I would of loved to hear some of those high end setups, but I doubt they would have liked my choice of music biggrin.gif
I YouTubed Com Truise, I bet that's pretty cool live. There must be a good light and screen show that goes with it.
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post #198 of 920 Old 04-12-2013, 10:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Compression kills fidelity. Bit depth determines the noise floor. The noise floor determines dynamic range, but a CD has 100Db of DR, which is more than enough for everything we humans can safely listen to. A 44kHz sampling rate covers the full range the human ear can hear. At a fundemental level, you can't 'beat' a properly produced CD. I just came from the New York Audio Show, plenty of $100,000+ systems being auditioned, yet almost all the music came from CD or Vinyl. Nobody was concerned about 24/96 and whether it would make those rarified systems sound better. Lossy compression is the enemy. You will not hear an improvement from 16/44 to 24/96, if the music is properly mastered.

Holy crap! We are once again in total agreement! eek.gif

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post #199 of 920 Old 04-12-2013, 10:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Compression kills fidelity. Bit depth determines the noise floor. The noise floor determines dynamic range, but a CD has 100Db of DR, which is more than enough for everything we humans can safely listen to. A 44kHz sampling rate covers the full range the human ear can hear. At a fundemental level, you can't 'beat' a properly produced CD. I just came from the New York Audio Show, plenty of $100,000+ systems being auditioned, yet almost all the music came from CD or Vinyl. Nobody was concerned about 24/96 and whether it would make those rarified systems sound better. Lossy compression is the enemy. You will not hear an improvement from 16/44 to 24/96, if the music is properly mastered.

Anyone who spends $100k on audio equipment needs their head examined. I hate to put an arbitrary ceiling on it, but even for an insane surround sound system, doing more than tip-toeing in the 5-digit cost range is just ridiculous and a total waste.
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post #200 of 920 Old 04-12-2013, 10:52 PM
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Oooh, big surprise from BiggAW. Anybody who doesn't conform to your standards always need to have their heads examined. From video compression, audio equipment, 4k viewing distance, everything have to conform to your ideas and not tangible facts. FUN STUFF !! rolleyes.gif I guess according to your standards, Abbey Road Studios, Capitol Records, Air Studios, Skywalker Sound, and thousands more studios need to have their heads examined because I know for a fact that their speakers alone (just one pair of monitor speakers) cost around $100K.

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post #201 of 920 Old 04-13-2013, 04:40 AM
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This is kind of a long article, but a good one.

http://www.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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This is kind of a long article, but a good one.

http://www.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html


Golden Earring? tongue.gif
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post #203 of 920 Old 04-13-2013, 07:12 AM
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Golden Earring? tongue.gif



Not the twilight zone version of it tongue.gif
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post #204 of 920 Old 04-13-2013, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

Oh, not this BS again about needing to sit 5' away from a giant TV to see 4K advantage.

Yesterday and today Sony Canada did a comparison on two 65" TV. One is playing HD, the other is playing the same feed but upscaled to 4k (not even native 4k. Both screens were located 8ft away from the nearest seats, and 100% of the viewers of hundreds of dealers, journalists can easily tell which is which.

Again, this is only a 65" screen from 8'-16' away playing only upscaled blu-ray (Adele concert, to be exact).

So much with your theory of needing to sit 5' away from a giant screen. 65" is not giant and even people who are standing 16' away can accurately tell the difference between HD and upscaled 4k.

On the other side of the room, Sony projected 130' native 4K video viewed from about 20' away and people still be able to see the advantage of 4K.

The human vision has limitations, just like human hearing, so it is highly unlikely that anyone saw any resolution difference even at the 8' seats. To those seating at the 12' seats and beyond, even the difference between 720p and 1080p would have been hard to tell. See this chart, for example.

Of course, there may have been other, visible differences, resulting from the way the screens were set up, or as artifacts of the upscaling process. But such differences were certainly not because of the audience's ability to perceive individual pixels at these distances -- it is simply a biological limitation for us humans.

Until 120'+ screens are affordable, 4k will remain a gimmick, unless you really do seat within 5" of your 65' TV (technically your eyes need to be even closer than that to get the full benefit of 4k).

But would it sell? Like hot-cakes, since good marketing will make people with limited knowledge (most of us consumers, really) feel "inadequate" in some way if they have 1080p, regardless of size and viewing distance. And as your post indicates, it's easy to fool human perceptions, just like it's often done in the world of "high-end" audio.

As to physical media, yep, it's already gone the way of vinyl. Some just don't know it yet.
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post #205 of 920 Old 04-13-2013, 01:20 PM
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The human vision has limitations, just like human hearing, so it is highly unlikely that anyone saw any resolution difference even at the 8' seats. To those seating at the 12' seats and beyond, even the difference between 720p and 1080p would have been hard to tell. See this chart, for example.

Of course, there may have been other, visible differences, resulting from the way the screens were set up, or as artifacts of the upscaling process. But such differences were certainly not because of the audience's ability to perceive individual pixels at these distances -- it is simply a biological limitation for us humans.

Until 120'+ screens are affordable, 4k will remain a gimmick, unless you really do seat within 5" of your 65' TV (technically your eyes need to be even closer than that to get the full benefit of 4k).

But would it sell? Like hot-cakes, since good marketing will make people with limited knowledge (most of us consumers, really) feel "inadequate" in some way if they have 1080p, regardless of size and viewing distance. And as your post indicates, it's easy to fool human perceptions, just like it's often done in the world of "high-end" audio.

As to physical media, yep, it's already gone the way of vinyl. Some just don't know it yet.

Have you seen a 4K TV or are you just guessing? When you mention specific distances and pixel visibility, aren't you ignoring the huge discrepancies that exist in human vision? As to the notion of "getting the full benefit from 4K", that's like saying you have to drive a car 130mph or faster all the time to get the full benefit. As for vinyl, yes it's a fringe, niche format. It's also still here, and quite popular at the high-end.

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post #206 of 920 Old 04-13-2013, 02:12 PM
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... When you mention specific distances and pixel visibility, aren't you ignoring the huge discrepancies that exist in human vision? ....

As a matter of fact, I am indeed ignoring most vision-ability discrepancies found in the general public.

Virtually all resolution charts assume that the subject has perfect vision, which most of the population does not.

In other words, many consumers with less than perfect vision will need to be even closer than the chart suggests, if they are to get any benefits from 4k.

Moreover, the testing is normally done with carefully selected still material, under controlled conditions, which are unlikely to be easily achievable in most home theaters.
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...As for vinyl, yes it's a fringe, niche format. It's also still here, and quite popular at the high-end.

Vinyl certainly introduces distortion which is at times audible and colors the sound. If someone likes the resulting coloration of sound, that's great.

Just don't call it "high end" in terms of objective reproduction of sound.
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post #207 of 920 Old 04-13-2013, 02:33 PM
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,
As a matter of fact, I am indeed ignoring most vision-ability discrepancies found in the general public.

Virtually all resolution charts assume that the subject has perfect vision, which most of the population does not.

In other words, many consumers with less than perfect vision will need to be even closer than the chart suggests, if they are to get any benefits from 4k.

Moreover, the testing is normally done with carefully selected still material, under controlled conditions, which are unlikely to be easily achievable in most home theaters.
Vinyl certainly introduces distortion which is at times audible and colors the sound. If someone likes the resulting coloration of sound, that's great.

Just don't call it "high end" in terms of objective reproduction of sound.

For the sake of argument, what do you consider "perfect human vision"? Hopefully you're not referring to 20/20.

I'll take your non-response to my question to mean that you are basing you argument on theory, and that you have not seen a 4K TV in person.

"High End" is exactly the market segment where you find vinyl. I don't make the rules, that's just how it is.

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post #208 of 920 Old 04-13-2013, 03:25 PM
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For the sake of argument, what do you consider "perfect human vision"? Hopefully you're not referring to 20/20.
...

For the sake of argument, why do you say "Hopefully you're not referring to 20/20?"

This is an accepted standard of "normal" vision and the fact that a few individuals may have a bit better visual acuity is as irrelevant as my arguing that the majority of Western consumers, particularly those of the age at which they are most likely to be able to afford a 4k set, have considerably lower visual acuity.

Again, it is physically impossible, for the vast majority of consumers, including those with standard "perfect" vision, to differentiate black and white patterns of spatial frequency higher than one minute of an arc. There are a few humans who can go as far as double that, but that's about it.

There is no magic here, just like there is no magic to the inherent distortion found in vinyl.

As far as your claims that you can see a difference, I believe you. All I am saying is that these are not controlled tests, but sessions designed to sell product and should be evaluated as such.

The difference you are seeing beyond certain "normal" distance is most likely due to factors other than resolution.
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post #209 of 920 Old 04-13-2013, 04:13 PM
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For the sake of argument, why do you say "Hopefully you're not referring to 20/20?"

This is an accepted standard of "normal" vision and the fact that a few individuals may have a bit better visual acuity is as irrelevant as my arguing that the majority of Western consumers, particularly those of the age at which they are most likely to be able to afford a 4k set, have considerably lower visual acuity.

Again, it is physically impossible, for the vast majority of consumers, including those with standard "perfect" vision, to differentiate black and white patterns of spatial frequency higher than one minute of an arc. There are a few humans who can go as far as double that, but that's about it.

There is no magic here, just like there is no magic to the inherent distortion found in vinyl.

As far as your claims that you can see a difference, I believe you. All I am saying is that these are not controlled tests, but sessions designed to sell product and should be evaluated as such.

The difference you are seeing beyond certain "normal" distance is most likely due to factors other than resolution.

20/20 is average human vision, plenty of people see better than 20/20. Look it up. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_acuity

I'll take your second non-response to the question - have you seen a 4K UHDTV in person - as confirmation you have not seen a 4K UHDTV in person, and are basing your opinion on "book knowledge" and erronous assumptions about human visual acuity. I'm just giving you a heads up, get some first-hand experience of your own before you start telling people who have had that experience what they saw.
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post #210 of 920 Old 04-13-2013, 04:33 PM
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Oooh, big surprise from BiggAW. Anybody who doesn't conform to your standards always need to have their heads examined. From video compression, audio equipment, 4k viewing distance, everything have to conform to your ideas and not tangible facts. FUN STUFF !! rolleyes.gif I guess according to your standards, Abbey Road Studios, Capitol Records, Air Studios, Skywalker Sound, and thousands more studios need to have their heads examined because I know for a fact that their speakers alone (just one pair of monitor speakers) cost around $100K.

I'm not dismissing 4k as completely useless, but I'm highly skeptical that it will catch on. We'll see. However, $100k audio systems is another place where A) it's ridiculous to spend that much no matter how rich you are, and B) humans can't tell the difference beyond a certain point, which is at least an order of magnitude less than a $100k audio system. And the only reason that the price ever crept into the 5-digit range is stuff like 11.4 surround where the extra speakers and amps add up for an immersive experience, the price ceiling of absurdity is a lot less on the stereo side.
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The human vision has limitations, just like human hearing, so it is highly unlikely that anyone saw any resolution difference even at the 8' seats. To those seating at the 12' seats and beyond, even the difference between 720p and 1080p would have been hard to tell. See this chart, for example.

Of course, there may have been other, visible differences, resulting from the way the screens were set up, or as artifacts of the upscaling process. But such differences were certainly not because of the audience's ability to perceive individual pixels at these distances -- it is simply a biological limitation for us humans.

Until 120'+ screens are affordable, 4k will remain a gimmick, unless you really do seat within 5" of your 65' TV (technically your eyes need to be even closer than that to get the full benefit of 4k).

But would it sell? Like hot-cakes, since good marketing will make people with limited knowledge (most of us consumers, really) feel "inadequate" in some way if they have 1080p, regardless of size and viewing distance. And as your post indicates, it's easy to fool human perceptions, just like it's often done in the world of "high-end" audio.

As to physical media, yep, it's already gone the way of vinyl. Some just don't know it yet.

Yeah, you hit the nail on the head. I wouldn't say physical media has gone the way of vinyl quite yet, but it's rapidly going there.
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