Does Auto Room Correction Do More Good or Harm? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
View Poll Results: Does Auto Room Correction Do More Good or Harm?
In general, it does more good than harm 297 46.26%
In general, it does more harm than good 52 8.10%
In general, it does more good only in the bass frequencies 31 4.83%
It depends on the room-correction system; some work better than others 123 19.16%
It depends on the room 33 5.14%
It depends on the speakers and their placement 17 2.65%
I don't have enough experience to say 89 13.86%
Voters: 642. You may not vote on this poll

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post #91 of 372 Old 07-29-2013, 11:35 AM
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I never noticed a big enough difference to determine if I liked it on or off.

It makes sense from a "scientific" perspective, and no offense to some people here, but it's not the same as using a "ruler" an SPL meter, and EQ. For one thing, I have never heard of anyone using an 8 channel EQ for home theater (pro audio is a different scenario.) It certainly hold the promise of improving over room response, which many of you know is a mess.

Someone said it's a tool. To that, I agree. As is modifying your room, such as adding bass traps, but room correction is far more likely to be used smile.gif

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post #92 of 372 Old 07-29-2013, 12:03 PM
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I have many systems that use different room correction software. I think a lot of people get a new receiver, calibrate using whatever system it comes with and then after listening for 5 minutes, decide they don't like it. They don't like it because they aren't used to the way it sounds. It takes days and sometimes months of listening to determine whether or not it's any good. Many times I was frustrated after running audyssey or ypao and tweeked the results and then over time found myself reverting back towards the original settings. Unless you've used the room correction system for a very long period of time, you can't really state whether or not it's any good. I think they sound better than doing nothing, but if you have the proper equipment and time, you can do better. I don't like spending a lot of time, money and effort trying to get things perfect. I would rather enjoy what I have.
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post #93 of 372 Old 07-29-2013, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Obsessing over what the exact sound the engineer heard at the particular console where mixing occurred is just one hyper-specific way of enjoying what is contained in a recording.

And there's no way to know what the engineer heard, anyway. That's not the point.

The point is to know that your system (which includes the room it's in) isn't coloring the sound in ways that will have unpredictable effects on the program material. And there's only one way to have any confidence in that: to do what you can to make it transparent to the source material.

That's the goal of room correction. If you don't agree with the goal, then certainly you wouldn't want to use it. But it just confuses things to argue that it's not a worthwhile goal; that would be a different thread. Here, the question is whether automated correction moves us closer to that goal, or not. My experience is that it usually does.
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post #94 of 372 Old 07-29-2013, 12:50 PM
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I don't care what I use as long as I totally forget the speakers and room exists when I'm watching something. With my current Klipsch Reference RF63's, RC64 and (4) RB61 surround system I use Pioneers MC room correction on auto and it significantly improves the immersion. I usually run it 5 or 6 times then switch between them and straight stock mode till I see which I like best. The end result of all this tinkering is a room filled with sound that my particular ear really enjoys and my OCD brain can live with since a gadget told me it was the best setting.
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post #95 of 372 Old 07-29-2013, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HowardV View Post

My whole point is a machine may not know the reason for a peak and flatten it by adjusting the wrong frequencies.
If they adjust the wrong frequency, if they don't match the filter Q with the width of the peak, if they apply the wrong amount of cut, then they won't flatten the peak.

My question started from a different premise: if they've flattened the peak (i.e., the problem frequency is no longer heard louder than adjacent frequencies), then what difference does it make to know the reason for the peak and how it was fixed?

Since it is apparent that you're interested in something more than results, can you give an example of how a problem could be fixed without it actually being fixed?

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post #96 of 372 Old 07-29-2013, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

I have many systems that use different room correction software. I think a lot of people get a new receiver, calibrate using whatever system it comes with and then after listening for 5 minutes, decide they don't like it. They don't like it because they aren't used to the way it sounds. It takes days and sometimes months of listening to determine whether or not it's any good. Many times I was frustrated after running audyssey or ypao and tweeked the results and then over time found myself reverting back towards the original settings. Unless you've used the room correction system for a very long period of time, you can't really state whether or not it's any good. I think they sound better than doing nothing, but if you have the proper equipment and time, you can do better. I don't like spending a lot of time, money and effort trying to get things perfect. I would rather enjoy what I have.

But, aren't you saying that people just have to get used to how room correction sounds? And once that happens, turning it off is what's going to sound bad, and it might again take a while to re-appreciate the sound of uncorrected audio. It works both ways, and I think sales and marketing folks are well aware of this.

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post #97 of 372 Old 07-29-2013, 01:40 PM
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When I turn audyssey on and off at my house, no one has ever felt the need to get 'used' to anything - it just plain sounded better when we watched the sequence of the movie we were comparing it with.

However, KidHorn, I do think you are right when it comes to the sub. Everyone seems to think their sub has disappeared when they get it EQ'd for the first time.
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post #98 of 372 Old 07-29-2013, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by rdclark View Post

And there's no way to know what the engineer heard, anyway. That's not the point.

The point is to know that your system (which includes the room it's in) isn't coloring the sound in ways that will have unpredictable effects on the program material. And there's only one way to have any confidence in that: to do what you can to make it transparent to the source material.

That's the goal of room correction. If you don't agree with the goal, then certainly you wouldn't want to use it. But it just confuses things to argue that it's not a worthwhile goal; that would be a different thread. Here, the question is whether ARC moves us closer to that goal, or not. My experience is that it usually does.

Yes, I agree that the technology has that capability. I also agree that a badly configured stereo will almost never be faithful to the source material, and that many people don't care either way.

My solution to eliminating the effects of the room is simple enough—high-end headphones. Keeps me very well aware how the music is supposed to sound, uncolored by the room. I suggest a great pair of cans for anyone who wants to judge how close their stereo system comes to being "faithful" and "neutral," and if anything is being lost by virtue of DRC processing.

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post #99 of 372 Old 07-29-2013, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

When I turn audyssey on and off at my house, no one has ever felt the need to get 'used' to anything - it just plain sounded better when we watched the sequence of the movie we were comparing it with.

However, KidHorn, I do think you are right when it comes to the sub. Everyone seems to think their sub has disappeared when they get it EQ'd for the first time.

Perhaps that's because there's nothing that (consumer) DRC systems screw up more frequently than subwoofer levels.eek.gif I've had to re-take readings with a proper calibration mic and REW, whenever I set levels automatically—that's been the case with every auto-configuring receiver I've owned, whether it was Onkyo, HK, Sony, or my current Pioneer Elite—and with whatever subs I've owned.

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post #100 of 372 Old 07-29-2013, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Perhaps that's because there's nothing that (consumer) DRC systems screw up more frequently than subwoofer levels.eek.gif I've had to re-take readings with a proper calibration mic and REW, whenever I set levels automatically—that's been the case with every auto-configuring receiver I've owned, whether it was Onkyo, HK, Sony, or my current Pioneer Elite—and with whatever subs I've owned.

In my case, the Trinnov Optimizer in the Sherwood R-972 did wonders for my sub (much better results than Audyssey XT, for instance).

I did install the custom +6dB sub curve file Sherwood provides, but after a while realized it was too hot, so switched to the +3dB. Frankly, it may still be a tad too hot and probably leaving the non-boosted Trinnov curve would be more accurate, but for movies it seems like a good compromise.

But overall, the Trinnov Optimizer Room EQ has made the most significant improvement in sound presentation I can think of (short of significant speaker changes).
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post #101 of 372 Old 07-29-2013, 03:17 PM
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I was just going through the ARC manual and I didnt see anything about being able to select any target curve at all...such as Floyd Toole's house curve that is downward sloping...is this correct that it only tries to make it flat or can you adjust it to be how you want?

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post #102 of 372 Old 07-29-2013, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimeran View Post

I was just going through the ARC manual and I didnt see anything about being able to select any target curve at all...such as Floyd Toole's house curve that is downward sloping...is this correct that it only tries to make it flat or can you adjust it to be how you want?



You would definitely want to ask that in the ARC thread. I'd want the correct answer and that would be a real plus if you could. I'm not saying no one knows here but they would definitely know there smile.gif
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post #103 of 372 Old 07-29-2013, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimeran View Post

I was just going through the ARC manual and I didnt see anything about being able to select any target curve at all...such as Floyd Toole's house curve that is downward sloping...is this correct that it only tries to make it flat or can you adjust it to be how you want?

The AVR version of ARC does nothing at all above 5kHz (but the user can select a lower cutoff frequency!)

The only target-curve adjustment it allows is the amount of bottom-end "room gain" lift.

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post #104 of 372 Old 07-29-2013, 05:14 PM
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I think the problem with room correction begins with the fact that its a one dimensional measurement, and a one dimensional solution, to a four dimensional phenomenon. A frequency response curve of a room is not the beginning and end of what a room does to sound.

OTOH, your brain has its own room correction built in, and it works in three dimensions. If your brain had so much trouble with rooms, if you could actually hear the mid/high frequency changes that a room supposedly makes to sound....then you would walk into a room youve never been in before, and you wouldnt recognize your best friend's voice. I'm sure almost no one has had that actually happen to them.
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post #105 of 372 Old 07-29-2013, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

If they adjust the wrong frequency, if they don't match the filter Q with the width of the peak, if they apply the wrong amount of cut, then they won't flatten the peak.

My question started from a different premise: if they've flattened the peak (i.e., the problem frequency is no longer heard louder than adjacent frequencies), then what difference does it make to know the reason for the peak and how it was fixed?

Since it is apparent that you're interested in something more than results, can you give an example of how a problem could be fixed without it actually being fixed?

There is more than one way to flatten a peak, depending on what caused the peak. To me, the result is if the sound is better after the peak is flattened. That would depend on if the machine fixed the peak the proper way. It is quite possible that room correction guessed it right and flattened the peak by adjusting the frequencies which caused it. But that's a crap shoot as it's quite possible to fix the peak incorrectly so it looks "fixed" on the chart, but the sound of music is worse than before.
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post #106 of 372 Old 07-29-2013, 06:52 PM
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Kind of like the "The Emperors new clothes" ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

I have many systems that use different room correction software. I think a lot of people get a new receiver, calibrate using whatever system it comes with and then after listening for 5 minutes, decide they don't like it. They don't like it because they aren't used to the way it sounds. It takes days and sometimes months of listening to determine whether or not it's any good. Many times I was frustrated after running audyssey or ypao and tweeked the results and then over time found myself reverting back towards the original settings. Unless you've used the room correction system for a very long period of time, you can't really state whether or not it's any good. I think they sound better than doing nothing, but if you have the proper equipment and time, you can do better. I don't like spending a lot of time, money and effort trying to get things perfect. I would rather enjoy what I have.
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post #107 of 372 Old 07-29-2013, 10:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HowardV View Post

There is more than one way to flatten a peak, depending on what caused the peak. To me, the result is if the sound is better after the peak is flattened. That would depend on if the machine fixed the peak the proper way. It is quite possible that room correction guessed it right and flattened the peak by adjusting the frequencies which caused it. But that's a crap shoot as it's quite possible to fix the peak incorrectly so it looks "fixed" on the chart, but the sound of music is worse than before.
Can you give an example of fixing a peak (rendering it inaudible) "incorrectly" or the "improper way"?

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post #108 of 372 Old 07-30-2013, 07:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Can you give an example of fixing a peak (rendering it inaudible) "incorrectly" or the "improper way"?

If you have a spike at 400hz, how do you know what causes it? Is it due to resonance in the environment? Is it other frequencies creating the 400hz tone (not sure if this was called complex tones), or due to other reasons. The spike can be tamed by possibly just lowering the amplitude at 400hz (applying various slopes/widths), or trying to find the other frequencies which are creating the 400hz spike and adjusting them. Each will tame the spike, but yield two different results when listening to music.

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post #109 of 372 Old 07-30-2013, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HowardV View Post

If you have a spike at 400hz, how do you know what causes it? Is it due to resonance in the environment? Is it other frequencies creating the 400hz tone (not sure if this was called complex tones), or due to other reasons. The spike can be tamed by possibly just lowering the amplitude at 400hz (applying various slopes/widths), or trying to find the other frequencies which are creating the 400hz spike and adjusting them. Each will tame the spike, but yield two different results when listening to music.

Or a resonance in the speaker itself? Or an anomaly in a very specific position? Or if uncalibrated, in the microphone itself?

And then you have the two most obvious questions, which no room correction seems to even attempt to answer....is it perceptible by the human psychoauditory system, and/or does correcting it add distortion?
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post #110 of 372 Old 07-30-2013, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HowardV View Post

If you have a spike at 400hz, how do you know what causes it?
If you no longer hear it, what difference does it make?
Quote:
Originally Posted by HowardV View Post

The spike can be tamed by possibly just lowering the amplitude at 400hz (applying various slopes/widths), or trying to find the other frequencies which are creating the 400hz spike and adjusting them. Each will tame the spike, but yield two different results when listening to music.
How will "other frequencies" create a peak at 400Hz?

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post #111 of 372 Old 07-30-2013, 12:35 PM
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For me Audyssey has made a MAJOR improvement in my home theater and in my car system as well smile.gif
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post #112 of 372 Old 07-30-2013, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post


How will "other frequencies" create a peak at 400Hz?

Since it's been over 20 years that I took my "physics and the sound of music" class, there is no way I can remember the details and explain in technical terms. In broad terms, I do remember the complexity of frequency interactions and how other waves are created. Are you saying this isn't possible?

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post #113 of 372 Old 07-30-2013, 01:38 PM
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HowardV - since the peaks are trimmed based on a preset test tone that is supposed to measure flat and then never adjusted again afterwards, wouldn't that be 'content friendly' with respect to the phenomena you are thinking about?
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post #114 of 372 Old 07-30-2013, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

Depends which version of YPAO and which version of Audyssey. without the knowledge of too many people, YPAO have 3 diffent variations and each have gone through betwen 3 to 5 generations.

The YPAO version simply adjusts the volume of various speakers depending on the distance from the seating position. The Parametric EQ is useless.
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post #115 of 372 Old 07-30-2013, 01:48 PM
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And you come up with this conclusion how? rolleyes.gif

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post #116 of 372 Old 07-30-2013, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

HowardV - since the peaks are trimmed based on a preset test tone that is supposed to measure flat and then never adjusted again afterwards, wouldn't that be 'content friendly' with respect to the phenomena you are thinking about?

I would think so, but it's not clear how these systems handle harmonic distortion from the loudspeakers themselves. For instance, 100hz tone has a significant 200hz overtone...is it just measuring the 100hz component and ignoring the overtone, or is it measuring the total SPL when the 100hz component of the test signal was played?

In either case, there's going to be an issue when EQing. If it just measures the 100hz component, it will probably find it lacking and boost accordingly...so it effectively just boosted the distortion. If it's measuring total SPL, it may measure too high, so it will cut at 100hz, which will leave a gap in your bass. You can't win either way, so your best approach would be to do nothing at all....but automatic room correction doesn't let you do that. This can be a particularly significant issue with satellites and small subwoofers.

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post #117 of 372 Old 07-30-2013, 02:36 PM
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Sounds like the loudspeaker with the least distortion wins in that scenario.

The scenario you describe sounds like one that should be measurable ---- the great majority of people like me who are pleased with their room corrected sound are probably not going to go out of their way to measure it though.
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post #118 of 372 Old 07-30-2013, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

HowardV - since the peaks are trimmed based on a preset test tone that is supposed to measure flat and then never adjusted again afterwards, wouldn't that be 'content friendly' with respect to the phenomena you are thinking about?
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I would think so, but it's not clear how these systems handle harmonic distortion from the loudspeakers themselves. For instance, 100hz tone has a significant 200hz overtone...is it just measuring the 100hz component and ignoring the overtone, or is it measuring the total SPL when the 100hz component of the test signal was played?

In either case, there's going to be an issue when EQing. If it just measures the 100hz component, it will probably find it lacking and boost accordingly...so it effectively just boosted the distortion. If it's measuring total SPL, it may measure too high, so it will cut at 100hz, which will leave a gap in your bass. You can't win either way, so your best approach would be to do nothing at all....but automatic room correction doesn't let you do that. This can be a particularly significant issue with satellites and small subwoofers.

mo949, quite possibly, but there could be other factors when it's not just a test tone. My intention was not to try to cover all the bases and possibilities. That's outside of my scope! Based on my experience, room correction is still in it's infancy and cannot be done by trusting a machine to take over and try to adjust the full frequency spectrum without any user intervention and expertise. Hopefully we'll get there someday.

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post #119 of 372 Old 07-30-2013, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Ashi777 View Post

The YPAO version simply adjusts the volume of various speakers depending on the distance from the seating position. The Parametric EQ is useless.

I've used Audyssey XT32 w/SubEQ and the YPAO, and find both to be excellent.
(Audyssey has the edge in versatility and better low frequency integration though I think...).

But one thing my previous Yamaha AVR could do that my Marantz pre-pro can't, is save up to 4 room different room correction settings to memory, and then be able to toggle between them 'on the fly' using the remote for direct A/B/C/D comparisons, I do miss that ability.

But admittedly, I'm still learning Audyssey though.

The Insane Pink Care Bear's Home Theater Set Up:

Marantz AV 8801 Processor, Emotiva XPR-5 Amplifier, Panasonic 65" ST30 Plasma, Yamaha BD-S2900 Blu-ray, Yamaha CDC-697 CD Player, Yamaha TT-500U Turntable, w/Signet TK5e, JBL ES100 Fronts, JBL LC2 Center, JBL ES30 Surrounds & 2 JBL ES250P Subwoofers
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post #120 of 372 Old 07-30-2013, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Norseman View Post

I've used Audyssey XT32 w/SubEQ and the YPAO, and find both to be excellent.
(Audyssey has the edge in versatility and better low frequency integration though I think...).

But one thing my previous Yamaha AVR could do that my Marantz pre-pro can't, is save up to 4 room different room correction settings to memory, and then be able to toggle between them 'on the fly' using the remote for direct A/B/C/D comparisons, I do miss that ability.

But admittedly, I'm still learning Audyssey though.

"low frequency integration." Thats absolutely right. Apart from adjusting the volume level and crossover frequency, theres not much else YPAO does for the low end.
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