Home Theater of the Month: Popalock's "Bassment"—Big Screen, Bigger Subs - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 176 Old 08-07-2013, 07:26 PM
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I've read about this concept of mains not keeping up with and being overpowered by subs but have yet to experience it, and I have relatively little subwoofage compared to many here. Carp and Mark explain it well enough but gotta wonder with the subs Kemiza has what his setup is telling him....

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post #92 of 176 Old 08-07-2013, 07:32 PM
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It basically comes down to: You're not going overpower decent speakers because they're in different audible ranges. Sure if you were asking the RF7's to play low bass content, the subs would overpower them/drown them out.

Lets ask the same question but from the opposite direction:

How is it that the RF7 horn tweeters don't drown out those 16 subwoofers ?
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post #93 of 176 Old 08-07-2013, 07:33 PM
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"99 problems but a sub ain't one"

I'll say! That is one of the greatest tags I have seen here especially considering your setup). Cheers to the DIY'er!

You just have to see what you are measuring into the single digits with that setup. I have heard that Pulse scene with Carp's 8 18''s and it was really crazy ULF so I can only try to imagine what double the subbage is like.

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post #94 of 176 Old 08-07-2013, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathanc View Post

It basically comes down to: You're not going overpower decent speakers because they're in different audible ranges. Sure if you were asking the RF7's to play low bass content, the subs would overpower them/drown them out.

Lets ask the same question but from the opposite direction:

How is it that the RF7 horn tweeters don't drown out those 16 subwoofers ?

LOL! I was sort of thinking the same thing....but have never heard the RF7 to be fair.

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post #95 of 176 Old 08-07-2013, 08:22 PM
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London Drugs in Canada has a listening room that lets you do A/B comparisons using a switching setup between various Klipsch, JAMO, Sony and other brands.

When I was first interested in Klipsch stuff, I was switching back and forth between the Synergy F2's and the RF82's. I couldn't tell much if any difference, and same with the RF82's versus the RF7's. However there was a difference between the RF7's and the Synergy F2's. In essence, you go up in sound quality, and there is a jump between cheap to expensive, but not a big jump from say, midrange reference to top reference.

Interesting about those JTR 228's. I didn't know they were that cheap! (Relatively) They would out perform pretty much anything I can think of in the price range, pre-assembled.
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post #96 of 176 Old 08-07-2013, 09:09 PM
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London Drugs? They uh, provide enhancers for listening sessions? smile.gif

The 228s sound very interesting indeed...and were even more interesting during the introductory offer....

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post #97 of 176 Old 08-08-2013, 01:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemiza View Post

So what you're saying is 2 floorstanding speakers with (4)10 inch woofers plus surrounds can keep up with (16)18 inch subwoofers?

Don't get me wrong. I can boost the subs to easily over power the mains. A flat fq response is just that..."flat."

Meaning, I could have 64+ subs in place and it would essentially sound the same as it does now if my system was calibrated for a flat response. However, my subs would simply be working less to achieve the same output. Same general concept applies if you have 1 sub or 64. That's the beauty of owning a powerful Digital Sound Processor (DSP) such as the mini. It allows us to boost the low-end where a sealed sub needs it (say 10Hz) and cut the mid-bass (say 50-60Hz) to "flatten" the response.

If I did not have the miniDSP in place for EQ and I simply threw 16 subs in my room in a sealed configuration, I'm confident the raw response from the subs coupled with my room acoustics would create nulls and peaks in the frequency range that would give the impression that the subs were "overpowering" the mains.

For instance, say I liked to listen to rap music and the beat of one song I wanted to demo has awesome 20Hz content mixed without much other bass content. Now let's say the natural response of my system had a nasty peak at 50Hz. Peak meaning that particular fq (50Hz) is maybe 10db louder then the rest of the fq range due to the raw sub response in my room. So if you play this rap song you like and really have to crank the bass up to enjoy the 20Hz content, then change songs to something with more 50Hz content, all of a sudden it's going to sound like your subs completely overpower the rest of your system.

Make sense?

If you've ever heard a sub and said, wow... I like the "sound" of this one over that one, it's because of your own subjective taste/preferences in whatever listening environment you are in. If subs are calibrated with the same frequency curve (i.e. - a flat response) they should essentially "sound" the same.

Here is a great thread I like referencing to people when they say they subjectively like one type of sub configuration (sealed, ported, horn loaded) over another.

Archaea's Kansas City Blind Subwoofer Shootout 2012

A very informative / highly recommended read!
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post #98 of 176 Old 08-08-2013, 05:36 AM
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How many miniDSP's do you use? What software packages are you using?
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post #99 of 176 Old 08-08-2013, 06:47 AM
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Maybe that particular question was answered in the build thread but... Isn't 600 W per SI HT 18" the recommended max power? This is what I gathered from Josh Ricci's post on Data-Bass. At 1.125 kW per driver this looks quite a bit overpowered. I don't know much about multi-speaker wiring so maybe there's something I didn't take into account...

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post #100 of 176 Old 08-08-2013, 06:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

Maybe that particular question was answered in the build thread but... Isn't 600 W per SI HT 18" the recommended max power? This is what I gathered from Josh Ricci's post on Data-Bass. At 1.125 kW per driver this looks quite a bit overpowered. I don't know much about multi-speaker wiring so maybe there's something I didn't take into account...

I don't know for a fact but I assume the answer is you want "extra" power so as not to be pushing the amp to hard and make everything more effortless.

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post #101 of 176 Old 08-08-2013, 07:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

Maybe that particular question was answered in the build thread but... Isn't 600 W per SI HT 18" the recommended max power? This is what I gathered from Josh Ricci's post on Data-Bass. At 1.125 kW per driver this looks quite a bit overpowered. I don't know much about multi-speaker wiring so maybe there's something I didn't take into account...

That's 600W of RMS power, not peak. The driver motor can handle the extra power, no problem. It's all about calculating the excursion limits at any given power level, relative to the volume of the sealed enclosure. Also, amplifier power output at very low frequencies is a different realm that is usually not shown in specs—but many amps have diminished output under 16Hz or so.

Data-bass.com says it best:
Quote:
" The very compliant suspension results in little power being needed to move the driver to full stroke. SI's recommendations for this woofer make sense in light of this and the driver will not make much use of more than 5 or 600w of power without getting into trouble. Depending upon the particular enclosure design more power could possibly be used but careful measurement and simulation would be needed to assess the wisdom of applying more power."

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post #102 of 176 Old 08-08-2013, 11:26 AM
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Well that's the part in data-bass that made me question the wisdom of applying 18kW of power to 16 SI HT 18" drivers smile.gif I thought it was 18kW RMS, but of course I guess there are lots of subtleties in play when trying to match that amount of power with... huh that amount of drivers biggrin.gif

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post #103 of 176 Old 08-08-2013, 12:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

Well that's the part in data-bass that made me question the wisdom of applying 18kW of power to 16 SI HT 18" drivers smile.gif I thought it was 18kW RMS, but of course I guess there are lots of subtleties in play when trying to match that amount of power with... huh that amount of drivers biggrin.gif

The main point is the SI 18" is typically excursion-limited, not power-limited. That's a good thing, but with a small volume enclosure and careful modeling you can get the maximum excursion to match up with a higher RMS.

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post #104 of 176 Old 08-08-2013, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

Well that's the part in data-bass that made me question the wisdom of applying 18kW of power to 16 SI HT 18" drivers smile.gif I thought it was 18kW RMS, but of course I guess there are lots of subtleties in play when trying to match that amount of power with... huh that amount of drivers biggrin.gif

I've yet to reach the excursion limits of the SI drivers in my current configuration. I have tripped my dedicated 20a lines before my subs reach their limits.

 

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post #105 of 176 Old 08-08-2013, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

I've read about this concept of mains not keeping up with and being overpowered by subs but have yet to experience it, and I have relatively little subwoofage compared to many here. Carp and Mark explain it well enough but gotta wonder with the subs Kemiza has what his setup is telling him....
My posts reflect what I heard in my own home. And yes my speakers and receiver are setup correctly.

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post #106 of 176 Old 08-08-2013, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Don't get me wrong. I can boost the subs to easily over power the mains. A flat fq response is just that..."flat."

Meaning, I could have 64+ subs in place and it would essentially sound the same as it does now if my system was calibrated for a flat response. However, my subs would simply be working less to achieve the same output. Same general concept applies if you have 1 sub or 64. That's the beauty of owning a powerful Digital Sound Processor (DSP) such as the mini. It allows us to boost the low-end where a sealed sub needs it (say 10Hz) and cut the mid-bass (say 50-60Hz) to "flatten" the response.

If I did not have the miniDSP in place for EQ and I simply threw 16 subs in my room in a sealed configuration, I'm confident the raw response from the subs coupled with my room acoustics would create nulls and peaks in the frequency range that would give the impression that the subs were "overpowering" the mains.

For instance, say I liked to listen to rap music and the beat of one song I wanted to demo has awesome 20Hz content mixed without much other bass content. Now let's say the natural response of my system had a nasty peak at 50Hz. Peak meaning that particular fq (50Hz) is maybe 10db louder then the rest of the fq range due to the raw sub response in my room. So if you play this rap song you like and really have to crank the bass up to enjoy the 20Hz content, then change songs to something with more 50Hz content, all of a sudden it's going to sound like your subs completely overpower the rest of your system.

Make sense?

If you've ever heard a sub and said, wow... I like the "sound" of this one over that one, it's because of your own subjective taste/preferences in whatever listening environment you are in. If subs are calibrated with the same frequency curve (i.e. - a flat response) they should essentially "sound" the same.

Here is a great thread I like referencing to people when they say they subjectively like one type of sub configuration (sealed, ported, horn loaded) over another.

Archaea's Kansas City Blind Subwoofer Shootout 2012

A very informative / highly recommended read!
There you are! I was wondering when you were going to chime in.smile.gif Thanks bro! I'm quite sure your system is a fun roller coaster ride I would love to hear it one day. I also wanted to build my next system. If you have some free time fire up the movie Oblivion on bluray and tell me what you think. Keep banging...smile.gif

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post #107 of 176 Old 08-08-2013, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemiza View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

I've read about this concept of mains not keeping up with and being overpowered by subs but have yet to experience it, and I have relatively little subwoofage compared to many here. Carp and Mark explain it well enough but gotta wonder with the subs Kemiza has what his setup is telling him....
My posts reflect what I heard in my own home. And yes my speakers and receiver are setup correctly.

Setup correctly perhaps but how about measurements to prove it?

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post #108 of 176 Old 08-08-2013, 09:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemiza View Post

My posts reflect what I heard in my own home. And yes my speakers and receiver are setup correctly.

How about your Subs?

Find out more about Mark Henninger at www.imagicdigital.com
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post #109 of 176 Old 08-09-2013, 12:25 AM
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Next time you have movie night check your power meter before and after and let us know how many KW/hr all that power uses.
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post #110 of 176 Old 08-09-2013, 02:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

Setup correctly perhaps but how about measurements to prove it?
Thanks for your input gentlemen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

How about your Subs?

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post #111 of 176 Old 08-09-2013, 02:48 AM
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I never understood the 20 subwoofer systems when I had a subwoofer in my car you couldn't even really hear it from the outside of my car because I wanted the bass to blend in with my music not play 20 decibles higher than it's suppose to. I don't get why you wouldn't want pink noise playing through your system to have a flat response versus a huge spike in the bass region. I thought audiophiles valued the integrity of their system.
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post #112 of 176 Old 08-09-2013, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by ComputerTech0903 View Post

I never understood the 20 subwoofer systems when I had a subwoofer in my car you couldn't even really hear it from the outside of my car because I wanted the bass to blend in with my music not play 20 decibles higher than it's suppose to. I don't get why you wouldn't want pink noise playing through your system to have a flat response versus a huge spike in the bass region. I thought audiophiles valued the integrity of their system.
You're gonna get sucker punched on this thread for posting that.

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post #113 of 176 Old 08-09-2013, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ComputerTech0903 View Post

I never understood the 20 subwoofer systems when I had a subwoofer in my car you couldn't even really hear it from the outside of my car because I wanted the bass to blend in with my music not play 20 decibles higher than it's suppose to. I don't get why you wouldn't want pink noise playing through your system to have a flat response versus a huge spike in the bass region. I thought audiophiles valued the integrity of their system.


He doesn't have anything playing 20 decibels higher than it is supposed to.  Frequencies down into the single digits require many many sealed subs with lots of power to reproduce them.  Properly calibrated which as far as I can tell this system is will have a flat, as close as any response can get to flat anyways, response it is just that this one can play frequencies down to 5hz and possibly below which most systems can not do.


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post #114 of 176 Old 08-09-2013, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ComputerTech0903 View Post

I never understood the 20 subwoofer systems when I had a subwoofer in my car you couldn't even really hear it from the outside of my car because I wanted the bass to blend in with my music not play 20 decibles higher than it's suppose to. I don't get why you wouldn't want pink noise playing through your system to have a flat response versus a huge spike in the bass region.
Just explained by the OP a few posts before your's:
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Don't get me wrong. I can boost the subs to easily over power the mains. A flat fq response is just that..."flat."

Meaning, I could have 64+ subs in place and it would essentially sound the same as it does now if my system was calibrated for a flat response. However, my subs would simply be working less to achieve the same output. Same general concept applies if you have 1 sub or 64. That's the beauty of owning a powerful Digital Sound Processor (DSP) such as the mini. It allows us to boost the low-end where a sealed sub needs it (say 10Hz) and cut the mid-bass (say 50-60Hz) to "flatten" the response.
So if you had 4 subs in your car instead of one, you would still dial in the bass to blend in with your music and not play 20 decibels higher than it's supposed to; i.e., you would still have a flat response. But each sub would be working less, since the workload is shared amongst 4 subs.

If multiple subs aren't used to go louder than the speakers, then why use multiple subs? Because there are advantages over using a single subwoofer. For example, pushing each sub less means you will lower distorion. Also, spreading 4 subs around your car cabin would give better seat to seat consistency than a single sub. Same thing at home.

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post #115 of 176 Old 08-09-2013, 10:58 AM
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You're gonna get sucker punched on this thread for posting that.
He'll get explanations, not punches (at least in this thread).

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post #116 of 176 Old 08-09-2013, 11:00 AM
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BOOM! What he said! any comment on here should say congrats, not be critiquing his system in any negative way. His won yours didn't. That's it.
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post #117 of 176 Old 08-09-2013, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ComputerTech0903 View Post

I never understood the 20 subwoofer systems when I had a subwoofer in my car you couldn't even really hear it from the outside of my car because I wanted the bass to blend in with my music not play 20 decibles higher than it's suppose to. I don't get why you wouldn't want pink noise playing through your system to have a flat response versus a huge spike in the bass region. I thought audiophiles valued the integrity of their system.

One of the main things I love about this forum is that we all share a passion for the hobby and everyone (for the most part) treats each other with respect. With that said, I totally understand where you are coming from. I had a similar thought process just a few short years ago before I knew the intracies of taking measurements (still learning a lot) and learning about the tools needed to take full advantage of what a system is capable of. For instance, when I would demo one sub or another I couldn't tell you the science behind how/why it sounded the way it did in a particular listening environment. I just used terms like "boomy" or "muddy," etc... without giving a second thought to why it sounded that way.

Then came my interjection into the DIY scene and my shift in focus to ULF/Infrasound. It's just something that I gained a passion for and decided to pursue.

With that said, I would be willing to make a bet that there are many many systems out there that sound just as good as mine at the listening position from 16Hz-20kHz playing a movie at 90db. So good, in fact, most owners would not question why they would want/need more. It makes me happy that those individuals have reached that level of satisfaction. Seriously!
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You're gonna get sucker punched on this thread for posting that.

We Donkey Punch around these parts.

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post #118 of 176 Old 08-09-2013, 03:13 PM
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Popa, that is one kick A set-up. I wish I had the room. I would love to hear what a system like this sounds like. I have been cruising the DYI subwoofer threads and I think I am about to drink the kool-aid. I have enough of the tools needed to do a project. I am waiting for my daughter, who moved in with us for a little while, to move which is coming Sept. 1. I am going to start a thread for some advice. I have been eye ballin' the SI-18s thinking I am going to build a pair.

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post #119 of 176 Old 08-09-2013, 03:29 PM
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If you have more subs only so each one works less why would you need 18,000 watts? I don't buy for a second this system is flat. 18,000 watts for sub's and 1000 for your other speakers that's ridiculous. 18000 watts is more then a multiplex cinema with all the screens combined. Either way at a certain point you just like the feeling of low notes not the accuracy of your system like kids at a car SPL competition. Either way enjoy your system.
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post #120 of 176 Old 08-09-2013, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ComputerTech0903 View Post

If you have more subs so each one works less why would you need 18,000 watts? I don't buy for a second this system is flat. 18,000 watts for sub's and 1000 for your other speakers that's ridiculous.

He also has the option of running crazy house curves (using minidsp for eq) so that the really low bass (the stuff you can't hear at all but only feel the couch violently shaking etc) is far more prominent.

This low bass takes a ton of power. I have 8 of his subs and I can get a very impressive amount of feel from the subs. The couch shakes like crazy, your hair on your head, arms, and legs will move with the bass too.

However, I can't achieve what he can with a scene like F'ing Irene from Blackhawk Down. On that scene I can tell the room feeling the bass but I feel nothing. I need more power below 10hz to make that scene impressive even with 8 18" subs, so yes there is a use for 16 subs in one room.

Also, as mentioned before the bass frequency response throughout his room is so smooth because he has so many subs. This is the biggest benefit to me since 99 percent of the time I'm not cranking the crap out of the system.
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