Value Electronics 10th Annual Display Shoot-Out - Updated 5/29/2014 - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 608 Old 06-21-2014, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Thankfully I'm fully qualified to calibrate TVs, and for a legit AVS event I'm sure I'd have some help. No joke, I want this to happen... start planning now and it could be a reality for next year, or even later this year.
That could be an incentive for people to bring in there sets. A free professional calibration. The logistics might be a little tricky. Need to do it on weekend when most people are off. Find a free venue like a community center or a school auditorium where you could control the lighting and had access to electrical outlets. Even with a few calibrators on hand there would be no time to do in depth calibration on every set, but maybe some of the sets would already be calibrated by their owners anyway.
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post #452 of 608 Old 06-21-2014, 07:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sytech View Post
That could be an incentive for people to bring in there sets. A free professional calibration. The logistics might be a little tricky. Need to do it on weekend when most people are off. Find a free venue like a community center or a school auditorium where you could control the lighting and had access to electrical outlets. Even with a few calibrators on hand there would be no time to do in depth calibration on every set, but maybe some of the sets would already be calibrated by their owners anyway.
Bam! Clear thinking, I like it. There is a community center one block from my home, and that's before asking if any AVS members have the space and the desire to host such an event. No-nonsense calibrations don't take all that long unless a TV already has major issues... If you don't have to "service" the customer as well as the TV, and you only calibrate one input, then a calibration is pretty quick.

I know this idea is at the "dream" stage, but it seems possible with enough time and planning. I'll mention it to Scott Wilkinson and get some feedback.

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post #453 of 608 Old 06-21-2014, 07:54 AM
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And stream the event live.
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post #454 of 608 Old 06-21-2014, 09:02 AM
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I think we should call it:

The First Annual Sytech AVS Forum Community Challenge

I can see it now. People bringing in their sets like a car show. We could have friendly wagering, popcorn, live streaming.
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post #455 of 608 Old 06-21-2014, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by sytech View Post
I think we should call it:

The First Annual Sytech AVS Forum Community Challenge

I can see it now. People bringing in their sets like a car show. We could have friendly wagering, popcorn, live streaming.

We need a Bay Area edition!
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post #456 of 608 Old 06-21-2014, 10:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sytech View Post
That could be an incentive for people to bring in there sets. A free professional calibration. The logistics might be a little tricky. Need to do it on weekend when most people are off. Find a free venue like a community center or a school auditorium where you could control the lighting and had access to electrical outlets. Even with a few calibrators on hand there would be no time to do in depth calibration on every set, but maybe some of the sets would already be calibrated by their owners anyway.
A little tricky is putting it mildly.

Before getting too far into it, why don't you start a thread to find out who would be willing to bring their fairly new display a few hundred miles to a shootout. I'm afraid that this might be one of those things where very few would actually be willing to risk damaging their new displays for a shootout.

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post #457 of 608 Old 06-23-2014, 05:58 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Bam! Clear thinking, I like it. There is a community center one block from my home, and that's before asking if any AVS members have the space and the desire to host such an event. No-nonsense calibrations don't take all that long unless a TV already has major issues... If you don't have to "service" the customer as well as the TV, and you only calibrate one input, then a calibration is pretty quick.

I know this idea is at the "dream" stage, but it seems possible with enough time and planning. I'll mention it to Scott Wilkinson and get some feedback.
Just curious, how similar is your idea the same as what Cleveland Plasma (AV) is trying to do now?

BTW, great ideas.
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post #458 of 608 Old 06-23-2014, 06:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Just curious, how similar is your idea the same as what Cleveland Plasma (AV) is trying to do now?

BTW, great ideas.
It's fairly similar, aside from the fact CP says it is buying some of TVs and then reselling them to get the evaluations done—I did also receive the invite to bring the AX800U to Cleveland! So, the main difference would be that this "idea" of a AVS diplay evaluation shootout would not be sponsored, or connected, to a dealer in any way, and Philly is a lot more convenient to get to for a much larger population than Cleveland, Ohio. Probably the biggest difference is CP is actually doing it, right now. I'm just dreaming of something that might be possible in a year, with support and planning.

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post #459 of 608 Old 06-23-2014, 06:16 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
It's fairly similar, aside from the fact CP says it is buying some of TVs and then reselling them to get the evaluations done—....snip.
Interesting.... Link?

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post #460 of 608 Old 06-23-2014, 06:34 AM
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Originally Posted by JimP View Post
Interesting.... Link?

http://www.avsforum.com/showthread.php?t=1573465


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post #461 of 608 Old 06-23-2014, 07:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
It's fairly similar, aside from the fact CP says it is buying some of TVs and then reselling them to get the evaluations done—I did also receive the invite to bring the AX800U to Cleveland! So, the main difference would be that this "idea" of a AVS diplay evaluation shootout would not be sponsored, or connected, to a dealer in any way, and Philly is a lot more convenient to get to for a much larger population than Cleveland, Ohio. Probably the biggest difference is CP is actually doing it, right now. I'm just dreaming of something that might be possible in a year, with support and planning.
I don't think you necessarily have to rule out including a dealer. If they took a hands off approach and let you used their display or demo models for evaluation, I think it would be fine. They just could not make the rules or exclude any other make or model they didn't sell. The key would be to fine a large concentration of AVS forum members willing to participate. Hopefully there are enough around Philly and NY to make it happen.
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post #462 of 608 Old 06-23-2014, 08:07 AM - Thread Starter
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I don't think you necessarily have to rule out including a dealer. If they took a hands off approach and let you used their display or demo models for evaluation, I think it would be fine. They just could not make the rules or exclude any other make or model they didn't sell. The key would be to fine a large concentration of AVS forum members willing to participate. Hopefully there are enough around Philly and NY to make it happen.
Well, if AVS members would be cool with it taking place at a dealer's location, then that's a cinch.

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post #463 of 608 Old 06-23-2014, 09:02 AM
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Well, if AVS members would be cool with it taking place at a dealer's location, then that's a cinch.

I understood the point of doing it at a neutral place and not including dealers. It was a way to "ensure" there would be no brand bias as far as the winner goes I'm not saying there has been or will be at dealer events but conspiracy theorists will abound if the dealer is selling a certain brand of TV even of they are selling all of the brands.


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post #464 of 608 Old 06-24-2014, 06:17 AM
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Neat idea, seems like it would be a lot of work to put together.

IMO, This would help really get it right.


Before Show
  • Define calibration targets for the shootout
  • Calibrate all of the TVs to the defined targets; have those who are better/most familiar at certain devices do them.
  • Have someone separate verify the calibration and best settings on the TVs (ensure TV is setup as best as can be) Or have a discussion about this in advance per set.
  • Put up cardboard cutouts in front of every TV so you can't see brand manufacturer/bezel. (use hobby putty to adhere to bezel)
  • Number each cardboard cutout
  • Create a demo loop of material to vote on that is sent to all of the displays. Use common and uncommon video scenes; make sure no user interaction is needed at all and it loops. Have it show title on intended section that matches voting section.

At show
  • Start the demo loop before people arrive so no menus/anything that could give away manufacturer would show.
  • Do initial voting once everyone has arrived
  • Then go into each panel's features after voting has been completed.
  • A/V news
  • Presentations
  • Anyone involved in the show is excluded from voting

List of things needed...
  • Venue
  • TVs
  • Calibrators
  • Speakers
  • Organizers
  • Video editor (person/people) make loop disc
  • Craft people cutout each bezel specific for TV
  • Video mounting wall
  • Wall mounts
  • power splitters
  • video splitters
  • long HDMI cables
  • BR player(s)
  • chairs
  • tables
  • food
  • P/A system
  • mics
  • projector/screen (presentations)
  • ... I could keep going

It's a bit of work And unless you are selling TV(s) and or have sponsors who can do presentations maybe even show new products. I can see why only dealors do this... so far

Just my thoughts on it...

-SiGGy

Last edited by SiGGy; 06-24-2014 at 06:36 AM.
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post #465 of 608 Old 06-24-2014, 07:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post
Neat idea, seems like it would be a lot of work to put together.

IMO, This would help really get it right.


Before Show
  • Define calibration targets for the shootout
  • Calibrate all of the TVs to the defined targets; have those who are better/most familiar at certain devices do them.
  • Have someone separate verify the calibration and best settings on the TVs (ensure TV is setup as best as can be) Or have a discussion about this in advance per set.
  • Put up cardboard cutouts in front of every TV so you can't see brand manufacturer/bezel. (use hobby putty to adhere to bezel)
  • Number each cardboard cutout
  • Create a demo loop of material to vote on that is sent to all of the displays. Use common and uncommon video scenes; make sure no user interaction is needed at all and it loops. Have it show title on intended section that matches voting section.

At show
  • Start the demo loop before people arrive so no menus/anything that could give away manufacturer would show.
  • Do initial voting once everyone has arrived
  • Then go into each panel's features after voting has been completed.
  • A/V news
  • Presentations
  • Anyone involved in the show is excluded from voting

List of things needed...
  • Venue
  • TVs
  • Calibrators
  • Speakers
  • Organizers
  • Video editor (person/people) make loop disc
  • Craft people cutout each bezel specific for TV
  • Video mounting wall
  • Wall mounts
  • power splitters
  • video splitters
  • long HDMI cables
  • BR player(s)
  • chairs
  • tables
  • food
  • P/A system
  • mics
  • projector/screen (presentations)
  • ... I could keep going

It's a bit of work And unless you are selling TV(s) and or have sponsors who can do presentations maybe even show new products. I can see why only dealors do this... so far

Just my thoughts on it...
Great post that shows the complexity involved with hosting such an event.
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post #466 of 608 Old 06-24-2014, 04:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post
Neat idea, seems like it would be a lot of work to put together.

IMO, This would help really get it right.


Before Show
  • Define calibration targets for the shootout
  • Calibrate all of the TVs to the defined targets; have those who are better/most familiar at certain devices do them.
  • Have someone separate verify the calibration and best settings on the TVs (ensure TV is setup as best as can be) Or have a discussion about this in advance per set.
  • Put up cardboard cutouts in front of every TV so you can't see brand manufacturer/bezel. (use hobby putty to adhere to bezel)
  • Number each cardboard cutout
  • Create a demo loop of material to vote on that is sent to all of the displays. Use common and uncommon video scenes; make sure no user interaction is needed at all and it loops. Have it show title on intended section that matches voting section.

At show
  • Start the demo loop before people arrive so no menus/anything that could give away manufacturer would show.
  • Do initial voting once everyone has arrived
  • Then go into each panel's features after voting has been completed.
  • A/V news
  • Presentations
  • Anyone involved in the show is excluded from voting

List of things needed...
  • Venue
  • TVs
  • Calibrators
  • Speakers
  • Organizers
  • Video editor (person/people) make loop disc
  • Craft people cutout each bezel specific for TV
  • Video mounting wall
  • Wall mounts
  • power splitters
  • video splitters
  • long HDMI cables
  • BR player(s)
  • chairs
  • tables
  • food
  • P/A system
  • mics
  • projector/screen (presentations)
  • ... I could keep going

It's a bit of work And unless you are selling TV(s) and or have sponsors who can do presentations maybe even show new products. I can see why only dealors do this... so far

Just my thoughts on it...
I think you guys are making it a little to in depth. I called it a Challenge rather than a Shootout for that very reason. You start doing all that and you would need days to set it all up and run it. No presentations, going in depth to look at each panel features, wall mounts, formal speakers, mics, custom demo loops, hiding bezels, food, etc. Just gather as many sets as you can, whether from AVS forum members or a dealers that would have a hands off approach. Quick calibration of all sets. Throw on some standard BD and 4K material we all use in evaluation. View in dark room and with lights on. Maybe take a few measurements like black levels and lag input. People there vote. Think of it more like Saturday afternoon classic car show at your local McDonald's than in depth performance shootout at the drag strip.
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post #467 of 608 Old 06-24-2014, 04:57 PM - Thread Starter
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FWIW I spoke to Robert today. No firm date yet, but it's close. One tidbit... The majority of TVS in the shootout will be 79" or larger. Also, the event will take place no later than the weekend of August 9-10. But, it could be earlier. The main delay is product availability.

Also, the inclusion of the Vizio M is still a possibility, but it's on Vizio to make it happen.

Last edited by imagic; 06-24-2014 at 07:10 PM.
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post #468 of 608 Old 06-24-2014, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sytech View Post
I think you guys are making it a little to in depth. I called it a Challenge rather than a Shootout for that very reason. You start doing all that and you would need days to set it all up and run it. No presentations, going in depth to look at each panel features, wall mounts, formal speakers, mics, custom demo loops, hiding bezels, food, etc. Just gather as many sets as you can, whether from AVS forum members or a dealers that would have a hands off approach. Quick calibration of all sets. Throw on some standard BD and 4K material we all use in evaluation. View in dark room and with lights on. Maybe take a few measurements like black levels and lag input. People there vote. Think of it more like Saturday afternoon classic car show at your local McDonald's than in depth performance shootout at the drag strip.
Perhaps.

When I was writing that I was thinking of improvements on things over the VE shootout. Otherwise why just repeat it done with less at another venue?

Even to do a basic hangout like you are saying it's going to take a lot of work/effort anyway.
  • Lugging the TVs out; this is the major thing. Way easier to drive a classic car to a meet
  • Calibrating 15 TV sets is 20-30 hours of work; even split up between 4 people it's 2-3 hours, easy. I'm quoting rushed numbers.
  • Setting up video walls/tables hdmi/splitters
You could cut it back... like no HDMI distribution. But then you have each TV going to have a separate player? Are all of the settings the same on all of the players?
  • Chroma sub-sampling?
  • RGB, YUV modes?
  • Black Level output?
...

I get what you're saying; but I see it as it's a lot of effort not to just go the extra mile and do it better. If you organized enough people and assigned duties you wouldn't need days. Just the day to setup and then start having guests at night.

-SiGGy

Last edited by SiGGy; 06-24-2014 at 05:14 PM.
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post #469 of 608 Old 06-24-2014, 05:37 PM
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The majority of TVS in the shootout will be 79" or larger.
Well, my interest in the shootout pretty much just went to zero. The best local dimming tech is not on any of the TVs in that size, except for the Sony X950B, so there's basically nothing to be learned about the 65-70" siblings by comparing the larger edge-lit family members.

I would like to know who pushed the size up from the 64-70" range to 79+" though. If I were paranoid, I'd suggest some of the major CE makers convinced Robert to go really big so the less established brands who don't make panels in those sizes can't even enter.
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post #470 of 608 Old 06-24-2014, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post
Perhaps.

When I was writing that I was thinking of improvements on things over the VE shootout. Otherwise why just repeat it done with less at another venue?


I get what you're saying; but I see it as it's a lot of effort not to just go the extra mile and do it better. If you organized enough people and assigned duties you wouldn't need days. Just the day to setup and then start having guests at night.
The main reason would be to allow all new models an equal opportunity and not eliminate any just because the dealer did not sell them or the manufacture did not want their set to participate. It would be open to any new noteworthy model from any manufacture as long as the set could get there in time. They would be set up by calibrators like imagic with no affiliation to any manufactures. Then the AVS members in attendance would judge. If you did as in depth as the VE shootout there would just not be enough time. He only has like 8 sets and is thinking about making it a 2 day event. It would get to be to much. We hopefully would get like 20 sets and could pick winners based on category. Best overall, best bang for the buck, best 4K, etc.
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Well, my interest in the shootout pretty much just went to zero. The best local dimming tech is not on any of the TVs in that size, except for the Sony X950B, so there's basically nothing to be learned about the 65-70" siblings by comparing the larger edge-lit family members.

I would like to know who pushed the size up from the 64-70" range to 79+" though. If I were paranoid, I'd suggest some of the major CE makers convinced Robert to go really big so the less established brands who don't make panels in those sizes can't even enter.

But on the brighter side it looks like Vizio is still in the game, I'm thinking Robert is campaigning them for their 70" model given the motto this year is go bigger. Heck, if this event gets pushed out to August perhaps the P series is still a possibility.

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post #472 of 608 Old 06-24-2014, 07:06 PM
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But on the brighter side it looks like Vizio is still in the game, I'm thinking Robert is campaigning them for their 70" model given the motto this year is go bigger. Heck, if this event gets pushed out to August perhaps the P series is still a possibility.
How did you determine that Vizio is still in the game? Because the date for it was pushed out even further?
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post #473 of 608 Old 06-24-2014, 07:11 PM - Thread Starter
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How did you determine that Vizio is still in the game? Because the date for it was pushed out even further?
Post 467. I talked to Robert in person today.
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post #474 of 608 Old 06-24-2014, 07:56 PM
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Post 467. I talked to Robert in person today.
With what set? An edge-lit 80" M-series?
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post #475 of 608 Old 06-24-2014, 08:11 PM
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With what set? An edge-lit 80" M-series?

You do realize he can't say anything. Robert is still working on a date AND finalizing the list if sets. Min sure Roberts wants a lock on the information until he officially releases it.

not sure how "most will be" turned into "all will be". That statement means there will be sets smaller than 79" shown.


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post #476 of 608 Old 06-25-2014, 04:46 AM
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You do realize he can't say anything. Robert is still working on a date AND finalizing the list if sets. Min sure Roberts wants a lock on the information until he officially releases it.

not sure how "most will be" turned into "all will be". That statement means there will be sets smaller than 79" shown.
Well, if the plan is that most will be 79"+ what exactly do you think is the criteria for determining the size used? Do you think think they might take the largest size offered in a given TV series? Or do you think the manufacturers going to be allowed to enter any old size they want so VE has a shootout comparing a bunch of cherry-picked sizes?

It stands to reason it will be the former. Since there is a 80" M-series it seems most likely they would use it because it meets the >=79" criteria.

Besides, we already know the OLED can't be any larger than 77" and the Plasma 64". So how many smaller than 79" LCDs can he take before "most" of the displays aren't >=79"?

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post #477 of 608 Old 06-25-2014, 05:41 AM
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''The majority will be 69'' or larger''. The OLED(s) present will be smaller than that which leaves very little to none room for smaller than 69'' non OLEDs. The smaller than 69'' TVs will probably be the OLEDs.

At the UK Shootout size was 65'', at the VE Shootout size is 69'', globaly only a small minority buys 50''+ TVs and because of that i would prefer seeing smaller sized TVs at Shootouts..
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post #478 of 608 Old 06-25-2014, 06:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
Well, if the plan is that most will be 79"+ what exactly do you think is the criteria for determining the size used? Do you think think they might take the largest size offered in a given TV series? Or do you think the manufacturers going to be allowed to enter any old size they want so VE has a shootout comparing a bunch of cherry-picked sizes?

It stands to reason it will be the former. Since there is a 80" M-series it seems most likely they would use it because it meets the >=79" criteria.

Besides, we already know the OLED can't be any larger than 77" and the Plasma 64". So how many smaller than 79" LCDs can he take before "most" of the displays aren't >=79"?

They could take any size they wished. For the M series I would think that would be 65 or 70 for best results. I'm not sure what the hang up is. VE is not going to force them to have a certain size, it's up to the manufacturer to chose that.

Until the entries are officially known, it will be hard to say either way, but if I had to guess I would think Vizio IF they decide to enter would enter the largest FALD screen(s) they have.


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post #479 of 608 Old 06-25-2014, 07:17 AM
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FWIW I spoke to Robert today. No firm date yet, but it's close. One tidbit... The majority of TVS in the shootout will be 79" or larger. Also, the event will take place no later than the weekend of August 9-10. But, it could be earlier. The main delay is product availability.

Also, the inclusion of the Vizio M is still a possibility, but it's on Vizio to make it happen.
Yawn. Too large to make extrapolation of results to the sweet spot sizes for most living rooms, 55-65 inches. Having 65 be the standard was as big as I would have gone.

This event should not be about size, who cares if you bring the biggest set? Event has gone from questionable to useless. Too much performance variation, particularly in the edge-lit sets, when you get that big.
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post #480 of 608 Old 06-25-2014, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post
They could take any size they wished. For the M series I would think that would be 65 or 70 for best results. I'm not sure what the hang up is. VE is not going to force them to have a certain size, it's up to the manufacturer to chose that.

Until the entries are officially known, it will be hard to say either way, but if I had to guess I would think Vizio IF they decide to enter would enter the largest FALD screen(s) they have.
If most of your displays aren't the same size it becomes even harder to compare them. It's just another needless variable that doesn't need to be put into play.
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