Value Electronics 10th Annual Display Shoot-Out - Updated 5/29/2014 - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 608 Old 04-18-2014, 12:48 AM
 
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Originally Posted by venus933 View Post

Not sure what you're referring to as May was the expected launch date of the M series and they should start showing up this summer. The P series will be out this Fall. Vizio NEVER promised earlier launch dates. As for the R series, as far as I know Vizio is still planning to launch them, but who knows.

Edit: It's probably a good ideal that Vizio will no longer participate at the CES since their product launches for their higher end models happen mid to late year.
That's the thing...no R dates and the big hullabaloo at CES centered on that series. Vizio has a tradition that this continued silence underscores based on promised product announcements in previous years.
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post #182 of 608 Old 04-18-2014, 04:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post


I've never been to one, but the descriptions earlier in this thread were that there wasn't time for that sort of thing.

Here's a link to the post.

 

Anyone who wants to can get up and scrutinize the TVs close-up.

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Originally Posted by lukemanstalker View Post


On what basis should Robert include the Panasonic VT? it lost the shoot out based on contrast and moving sharpness, unless firmware has changed dramatically between then and now it will lose again

The VT essentially tied for a close second-place with the ZT. The whole vote was super-duper close and don't forget that the pros chose the Panasonics, not the Samsung. The audience voted for the F8500... it just goes to show how much appeal a bright screen has to many people. The VT and ZT are discontinued, time to say goodbye IMO.


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post #183 of 608 Old 04-18-2014, 05:31 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

The VT essentially tied for a close second-place with the ZT. The whole vote was super-duper close and don't forget that the pros chose the Panasonics, not the Samsung. The audience voted for the F8500... it just goes to show how much appeal a bright screen has to many people. The VT and ZT are discontinued, time to say goodbye IMO.

I guess it depends on your definition of pros, the calibrators by a smidgen picked the ZT/VT and the audience members by a smidgen picked the F8500. In both sets of votes it was the overwhelming advantage the F8500 had in the day mode that allowed it to be on par with the ZT/VT. The Panasonic plasmas by small margins won all the other categories.

So my big question is this, what percentage of the audience members would you considered "professional" (I'm assuming you have attended past events)? From the YouTube videos I've watched the last couple of years the audience members seem to consist of industry insiders with some just as expert as the 3 calibrators that make up the panel. Feel free to consider yourself a pro as I just anointed you as one based upon your credentials. wink.gif

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post #184 of 608 Old 04-18-2014, 05:33 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Anyone who wants to can get up and scrutinize the TVs close-up.
No one else minds that someone is standing directly in front of it pixel peeping and blocking their view?
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post #185 of 608 Old 04-18-2014, 05:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post


No one else minds that someone is standing directly in front of it pixel peeping and blocking their view?

 

There are times when it would be rude to do so, but there are other times when you are invited to do so. How many times do you have to scrutinize the screen? Not on "every test pattern, every movie clip and every demo that's thrown up." After a few trips to the screens, you figure out how sharp each one is and move on to observing other aspect of image quality.


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post #186 of 608 Old 04-18-2014, 06:32 AM
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Because of the 2013 Shootout, I purchased a Samsung 64F8500. What will it be this year???????????????
You buy a new TV every year?????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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post #187 of 608 Old 04-18-2014, 07:15 AM
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You buy a new TV every year?????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


It all depends on what is out. This year the LG 77" 4K OLED is very interesting. If it is hangable, I might do it. I have nothing else to do. I am retired and collecting Blu's and watching movies is my hobby/passion. So, why not buy new TV technology.

I don't golf, race cars, chase women, drink, smoke or gamble. Therefore, buying a new TV every once in awhile is a must to keep me going.
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post #188 of 608 Old 04-18-2014, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

Add me to the list of people who would also like to see "Viewing Angles" and "Screen Uniformity" added to the list of criteria. If my OLED has issues with either of those I am not spending 5 figures on it.
Input Lag as well, even though that's not strictly about image quality. It would be good to see how this compares against Moving Resolution / Sharpness (is this the same as Motion Blur)?
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post #189 of 608 Old 04-18-2014, 12:13 PM
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It needs more plasmas. I'm still upset at plasmas demise. LCD ain't good enough. Now we have these unfinished spec 4K LCD's. Is Panasonic's LCD's even going to be there?


All those TV's can stay. But they should include-

ZT60
VT60
A kuro display

We need to see how these new displays compare to the best.


The 2014 Shootout has concluded the best. They included in the 2014 line up last year's Shootout winner the Samsung 64F8500

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post #190 of 608 Old 04-18-2014, 12:47 PM
 
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^Not universally the best, but it's an argument whose time has expired. The F8500 will be an afterthought to me on this shootout.
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post #191 of 608 Old 04-18-2014, 02:50 PM
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Has LG ever one the shootout? don't recall them doing so, and it looks like they can potentially come up with both hd and uhd titles.
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post #192 of 608 Old 04-18-2014, 03:29 PM
 
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Not any time recently (if at all). It's difficult to find results going back prior to 2008 (Kuro by default that year).
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post #193 of 608 Old 04-19-2014, 10:22 AM
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Here are my predictions based upon the projected nominees:

Best TV: LG 77EC9800
Best non OLED TV: Samsung PN64F8500

Best LCD Full HD: Samsung UN65H8000
Best LCD Ultra HD: Sony XBR-65X950B

Since it's my understanding the Sony KDL-65X950B has a ISP panel from LG I'm going with the Samsung in the Full HD category.

I think Vizio's new M series would have a good chance to win the Full HD category so I hope Robert Zohn reconsiders including it in the shootout. Amazon has the M652i-B2 listed so I suspect it will be weeks, not months before stock arrives.

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post #194 of 608 Old 04-19-2014, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by venus933 View Post

Here are my predictions based upon the projected nominees:

Best TV: LG 77EC9800
Best non OLED TV: Samsung PN64F8500

Best LCD Full HD: Samsung UN65H8000
Best LCD Ultra HD: Sony XBR-65X950B

Since it's my understanding the Sony KDL-65X950B has a ISP panel from LG I'm going with the Samsung in the Full HD category.

I think Vizio's new M series would have a good chance to win the Full HD category so I hope Robert Zohn reconsiders including it in the shootout. Amazon has the M652i-B2 listed so I suspect it will be weeks, not months before stock arrives.

I'll bet against you in Best LCD Ultra category. I'll take the Toshiba 65L9400U for the upset win.

Obviously, the LG 77" 4K OLED will take the win, but is it even a legal entry? Usually, the entries must be taken from his inventory and no doubt this is a ringer product sample. Not that it needed an advantage to win anyway.
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post #195 of 608 Old 04-19-2014, 06:21 PM
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I thought that the LG 4K OLED TVs weren't supposed to show up before fall? Especially the 77" model. I'd actually be surprised to see any 4K OLED in the shooutout.
As for the Full HD OLED, it's the first time that I heard of a EC9300. AFAIK LG will simply continue to sell last year's EA9800/9700, so I expect one of those to appear in the shootout.
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post #196 of 608 Old 04-19-2014, 07:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sytech View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by venus933 View Post

Here are my predictions based upon the projected nominees:

Best TV: LG 77EC9800
Best non OLED TV: Samsung PN64F8500

Best LCD Full HD: Samsung UN65H8000
Best LCD Ultra HD: Sony XBR-65X950B

Since it's my understanding the Sony KDL-65X950B has a ISP panel from LG I'm going with the Samsung in the Full HD category.

I think Vizio's new M series would have a good chance to win the Full HD category so I hope Robert Zohn reconsiders including it in the shootout. Amazon has the M652i-B2 listed so I suspect it will be weeks, not months before stock arrives.

I'll bet against you in Best LCD Ultra category. I'll take the Toshiba 65L9400U for the upset win.

Obviously, the LG 77" 4K OLED will take the win, but is it even a legal entry? Usually, the entries must be taken from his inventory and no doubt this is a ringer product sample. Not that it needed an advantage to win anyway.

We are obviously free to define whatever categories we want and crown AVS Forum winners based on the underlying scoring matrix, but I don't think the categories that Venus933 has defined are going to be official. From what I have understood, the official categories will be:

#1 Best Overall TV (shootout between #2 and #3 below)
#2 Best 1080p HDTV
#3 Best 4K UHDTV

With the Samsung F8500 in the HDTD shootout, it's a real shame that one of the 2014 FALD HDTVs is not included (either the Vizio M Series or the Toshiba L7400U).

With the OLED HDTV included as well, it may be a moot point, but it would have been nice to have seen how the FALD panels compared to the best edge-lit LED/LCDs and also how they compared to last years winner in terms of black levels and shadow detail. The argument that the L7400U could not be included because it is only 55" is nonsense, since the LG OLED is only 55".

Day two should provide an interesting comparison of the best FALD LED/LCD against the best edge-lit LED/LCDs, and even though the 77" LG OLED should win, the comparison in scores will hopefully provide some sense of the PQ tradeoffs being made for those seeking a more affordable or more mature TV this year.
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post #197 of 608 Old 04-19-2014, 08:05 PM
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We are obviously free to define whatever categories we want and crown AVS Forum winners based on the underlying scoring matrix, but I don't think the categories that Venus933 has defined are going to be official. From what I have understood, the official categories will be:

#1 Best Overall TV (shootout between #2 and #3 below)
#2 Best 1080p HDTV
#3 Best 4K UHDTV

With the Samsung F8500 in the HDTD shootout, it's a real shame that one of the 2014 FALD HDTVs is not included (either the Vizio M Series or the Toshiba L7400U).

With the OLED HDTV included as well, it may be a moot point, but it would have been nice to have seen how the FALD panels compared to the best edge-lit LED/LCDs and also how they compared to last years winner in terms of black levels and shadow detail. The argument that the L7400U could not be included because it is only 55" is nonsense, since the LG OLED is only 55".

Day two should provide an interesting comparison of the best FALD LED/LCD against the best edge-lit LED/LCDs, and even though the 77" LG OLED should win, the comparison in scores will hopefully provide some sense of the PQ tradeoffs being made for those seeking a more affordable or more mature TV this year.

Well, we can take heart in that the final nominees are not set in stone or the format for that matter. I hope the reason the M series is not in the shootout is because VE doesn't sell Vizios.

With your correction the LG OLEDs should take all 3 categories, but as you alluded to it may be more interesting to see how the LCDs compare to each other.

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post #198 of 608 Old 04-19-2014, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by venus933 View Post

Well, we can take heart in that the final nominees are not set in stone or the format for that matter. I hope the reason the M series is not in the shootout is because VE doesn't sell Vizios.
It was listed somewhere in the thread that Vizio was invited to participate in 2014 (for the first time).
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With your correction the LG OLEDs should take all 3 categories, but as you alluded to it may be more interesting to see how the LCDs compare to each other.
I'm not sure how I feel about that. I've never attended, but I spent several hours watching various non-manufacturer segments of the 2013 shoot-out on Youtube today. It really seemed like the LCDs were just filler for the 3 Plasmas (VT50, ZT60, and F8500) to beat up on. IE: To serve as a bad example. With the OLED in the mix for 2014 it doesn't seem like a stretch to think a good percentage of the shoot-out will be about how much better the OLEDs do everything than all the other displays.
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post #199 of 608 Old 04-19-2014, 10:00 PM
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It was listed somewhere in the thread that Vizio was invited to participate in 2014 (for the first time).

Thanks for the info, so maybe there's legitimate hope after all because it sure seems like the M series will be out in time. Then again I don't know what's going on behind the scenes. Our thread starter, Mark Henninger, mentioned that Vizio was the most interesting unknown. Maybe that doesn't extend to the M series.
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I'm not sure how I feel about that. I've never attended, but I spent several hours watching various non-manufacturer segments of the 2013 shoot-out on Youtube today. It really seemed like the LCDs were just filler for the 3 Plasmas (VT50, ZT60, and F8500) to beat up on. IE: To serve as a bad example. With the OLED in the mix for 2014 it doesn't seem like a stretch to think a good percentage of the shoot-out will be about how much better the OLEDs do everything than all the other displays.

Yeah, I know what you mean. The LCDs were like the Washington Generals but I'm hoping this year's FALD sets are competitive.

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post #200 of 608 Old 04-20-2014, 05:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the info, so maybe there's legitimate hope after all because it sure seems like the M series will be out in time. Then again I don't know what's going on behind the scenes. Our thread starter, Mark Henninger, mentioned that Vizio was the most interesting unknown. Maybe that doesn't extend to the M series.
Yeah, I know what you mean. The LCDs were like the Washington Generals but I'm hoping this year's FALD sets are competitive.

 

Robert asked me what he could do to improve the shootout and my response was simple: include the Vizio M series in the lineup. I don't know if it will happen, but it's been communicated.

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post #201 of 608 Old 04-20-2014, 05:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post


It was listed somewhere in the thread that Vizio was invited to participate in 2014 (for the first time).
I'm not sure how I feel about that. I've never attended, but I spent several hours watching various non-manufacturer segments of the 2013 shoot-out on Youtube today. It really seemed like the LCDs were just filler for the 3 Plasmas (VT50, ZT60, and F8500) to beat up on. IE: To serve as a bad example. With the OLED in the mix for 2014 it doesn't seem like a stretch to think a good percentage of the shoot-out will be about how much better the OLEDs do everything than all the other displays.

 

Except there are no guarantees. OLED has issues with motion resolution that could still trip it up, when compared to a plasma. Deepest blacks is the only given for OLED.

 

Sharp's Elite LCD won the shootout in 2011, so it's not unheard of.


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post #202 of 608 Old 04-20-2014, 10:06 AM
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Sharp's Elite LCD won the shootout in 2011, so it's not unheard of.
Yeah, and the 2013 Q&A video when the Sharp Elite was brought up Kevin Miller said he'd take any of the displays up there, with perhaps the exception of the Panasonic IPS LCD, over it.
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post #203 of 608 Old 04-20-2014, 10:30 AM
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Yeah, and the 2013 Q&A video when the Sharp Elite was brought up Kevin Miller said he'd take any of the displays up there, with perhaps the exception of the Panasonic IPS LCD, over it.

I can understand the plasmas since the Samsung (the current F8500) was noted for a significant improvement from the prior year and the same with the Panasonics in 2012 (50 series) but taking the Sony and Samsung LCDs over the Sharp Elite is surprising. Hmm..

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post #204 of 608 Old 04-20-2014, 10:30 AM
 
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I thought that the LG 4K OLED TVs weren't supposed to show up before fall? Especially the 77" model.
Late August is what I've heard, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if that slips into the fall. It all depends on how yields are coming along along with the new fabrication plant set to open in a few months.
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post #205 of 608 Old 04-20-2014, 10:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Yeah, and the 2013 Q&A video when the Sharp Elite was brought up Kevin Miller said he'd take any of the displays up there, with perhaps the exception of the Panasonic IPS LCD, over it.

 

And last year, the Pros voted for the ZT60/VT60 (basically a tie), as did I. Even so, the official winner comes from the audience vote tally, not from the calibrators.


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post #206 of 608 Old 04-20-2014, 10:41 AM
 
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Already a mini-review out for the EC9300. Don't quote me, but I think the curved panel from last year (55EA9800) is set to be discontinued. I'd rather VE use the flat one ("Gallery") anyway. This curved nonsense might be enough to grasp defeat from the jaws of victory. wink.gif
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post #207 of 608 Old 04-20-2014, 11:01 AM
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LOL, that's the only site where I saw any mention of this so called EC9300. It also has "reviews" of the 4K OLED models. rolleyes.gif
I am sure they also have "reviews" of the 2015 models somewhere. wink.gif
I still doubt that the shoot-out will include any of the 2014 OLED models apart from possibly the speakerless version of the 9800, the 9700, that hat yet to appear in the US, unless LG provides the prototypes that they have shown at CES and press conferences.
Am I the only one who thinks so?
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post #208 of 608 Old 04-20-2014, 11:05 AM
 
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I didn't believe they were going to deliver ANY OLED about 12 months ago, so anything is possible. wink.gif I also see no point in Robert including that model in the above lineup if he didn't have an ice cube's chance in hell of getting it in time. biggrin.gif
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post #209 of 608 Old 04-20-2014, 11:11 AM
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You have a point. wink.gif Maybe we'll see first real prices for the 4K OLEDs in 55"/65" in July after the world cup. For the 77" I always heard that it's not supposed to be out before the IFA in Berlin, so I don't know how it would be possible to see it take part in the shoot-out.
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post #210 of 608 Old 04-20-2014, 11:15 AM
 
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I've heard the opposite (from Robert about a month ago) that the 77" will see release (albeit no doubt highly limited given the price) before the 65". I have no idea why and given the fluidity of release plans with these outfits, that may now be outdated info. eek.gif
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Panasonic Tc P65vt60 65 Inch 3d Smart Plasma Hdtv , Panasonic , Samsung , Samsung Pn64f8500 64 Inch 3d Smart Plasma Hdtv , Ces 2014
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