Value Electronics 10th Annual Display Shoot-Out - Updated 5/29/2014 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 608 Old 02-24-2014, 01:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Shootout Dates: August 16 & 17, 2014 (Saturday and Sunday)

This year promises to be an intriguing one for videophiles. Consumers have a number of choices to make: 1080p HD versus 2160p UHD resolution, flat versus curved screens, LCD versus OLED versus plasma panels. At the high end, there are 21:9 aspect-ratio screens and HDR (high dynamic range) displays to consider, as well as UHD-capable OLEDs. I saw examples of all of these TVs at CES 2014, but it is impossible to judge the quality of any TV while standing in a convention center—the ambient lighting is far too bright and there is no way to confirm the settings.
 
The best way to judge a TV is to compare it to other TVs. Ideally, the comparison is between calibrated TVs, in optimum lighting conditions, using the same reference material. As you can imagine, that's not an easy thing to pull off, which is why it's a good thing that Robert Zohn of Value Electronics in Scarsdale, NY, decided it was a good idea to organize an event based on comparing TVs in a controlled environment.
 
Last year was my first time attending the VE shootout, and I'm looking forward to this year's event—it's the tenth anniversary! Although Value Electronics is a TV retailer, a lot of effort is put in to making sure it is a fair competition. All the TVs receive a professional calibration—for both day and night viewing—and the comparisons occur under appropriate lighting, with all the windows blocked out for the night portion of the judging. While I would not go so far as to call the competition scientific in nature—there are too many variables to account for, and it's not a blind comparison—it is fair. For instance, the calibrators are among the very best in the industry: Kevin Miller, DeWayne Davis, and David Mackenzie.
 

Robert Zohn talks to the audience full of enthusiasts at last year's event
 
The 2014 VE shootout is tentatively scheduled for a weekend in late May, although the date is not yet firm because many of the TVs intended to be in the shootout are not shipping yet. If need be, a later date could be chosen. I hope that the 2014 TVs come to market sooner rather than later because I'm anxious to see this showdown.
 
This year's shootout will be interesting because the TV industry is at a technological crossroads. Plasma technology is still around and offers truly compelling performance for the money. Brand new, pricey OLED UHDTVs are now a reality at home theater-worthy screen sizes. LED-lit UHD 21:9 screens that can replace a front-projection home-theater rig are also a reality. Sadly, the shootout won't feature one of those widescreen wonders.
 
Whereas the 2013 shootout turned into a battle of the top HD plasmas, this year there is a lot of competition coming from the UHD LED-LCD segment thanks to the re-adoption of full-array backlighting with local dimming—quite a few top-tier LCD UHDTVs looked spectacular at CES. I'm curious how they'll hold up when subjected to added scrutiny at the 2014 VE Shootout.
 
The event itself will take place over two days, with an HDTV shootout on a Friday night and a UHDTV shootout on a Saturday night. At the end of the second night, the winning HDTV and UHDTV will duke it out in a final showdown.
 
For me, the event is an opportunity to compare TVs from different manufacturers on a level playing field. Last year, I thought the Panasonic VT60 and ZT60 were the best-performing panels, whereas the audience voted for Samsung's F8500 by a razor-thin margin. The truth is that either TV could have taken the crown last year.
 

Here are the voting results from last year's shootout
 
Do you plan to watch the shootout via live online streaming, or perhaps even attend? Is this event a factor in your TV-shopping process?
 
I will update this thread when the dates of the shootout are firm, and I'll post a list of TVs that will be in the shootout as soon as that becomes available.
 
Updated 5/29/2014
 
Copied and pasted directly from my email...
 
"Mark,
 
I’m rethinking a few details and we are likely to follow our 2013 decision to mix 1080p with Ultra HD and just like we have done each year is to have the same event repeated over two days.  The attendees, press and special VIP guests vary each night so presenters, in attendance and on-line Q&A and we just seem to always do a better job on the second night, but the core agenda is the same for each of the two days.  
 
At this moment here’s the list that’s 99% in the event:
 
1080p, Full HD
 
  • Samsung PN64F8500 PDP
  • Sharp LC-70UQ17U
 

1080p models that are likely to be included in the list of contestants, but not finalized:
 
  • Sony KDL-65W950B
  • Samsung UN65H8000
  • LG 65LB7100
 
4K, Ultra HD
 
  • Sony X950B Direct LED, locally dimmed
  • Samsung HU8550 Edge LED, locally dimmed
  • Samsung HU9000 Edge LED, locally dimmed
  • LG UB9800 Edge LED, locally dimmed
  • Toshiba 65L9400U Direct LED, locally dimmed
 

If available, we’ll definitely include LG’s 65” or 77” EC9800 4K OLED TVs.  I’m not prepared to answer to Vizio or Panasonic at this moment, but look forward to updating and finalizing everything very shortly.

 
The date is still undecided, but we’re trying for July 19-20th.
 
I love reading all of the posts and one or two emails and a few anonymous phone calls.  In particular thanks to fafrd for pointing out some one year old obsolete text on my website, which I fixed.  
 
Finally, I have a few great new special guests and some very very cool ideas that I’d love to leak, but can’t do yet.  My company, our panel of experts, videographer, all of our behind the scene vendors and humans and myself are deeply committed and focused on making this the best and most accurate display evaluation of the highest-end premium TVs available each year from the finest premium manufacturers.  All comments are gratefully considered and appreciated!" - Robert Zohn

 
Updated 5/03/2014
 
I have another update from Robert Zohn to share:
 
"I had planned to have confirmation of all of the models participating in the Shootout competition before announcing them on my website. 
 
"We're still speaking with Vizio on their participation with the "M" and "P" series as the "R" series will definitely not be available in time.  If Vizio says yes then the vetting process will proceed with one or more of our panel of experts making the final decision.
 
"At this moment I would say the event is likely to be on Saturday, July 12 and Sunday, July 13.  But I should be able to finalize the date once I confirm all of the models are available and the key participants and special VIP guests are available.
 
"It's getting exciting to see this year's flagship displays being included in our Shootout evaluation event.  I read one poster that was not excited to see the 4K Ultra HD TVs in the competition, but I assure you this year's edge lit and of course the direct back lit LCD/LED displays are nothing like what we have seen in previous years.  All of the panels that we are putting into the Shootout are excellent performance TVs." - Robert Zohn
 
 
Updated 4/15/2014
 
From Robert Zohn:
 
"Below is our latest list of TVs that are likely to be included in our 2014 Flat and Curved HD and UHD Shootout Evaluation event. One or more may be dropped or added if available. Finally, not sure at this time if we’ll permit the OLED to be included in the final official decision to crown the “2014 King of HDTV” and our crowning of the “2014 King of 4K Ultra HD”  So if we don’t use the OLED votes in the determination of the winner we will publish the results for the attendees and public to know if OLED would have won if they were included."
 
Day One the Full HD Competition
 
LCD/LED Full HD displays:
 
Samsung UN65H8000
LG 65LB7100
Sharp LC-70UQ17U
Sony KDL-65X950B
 
Plasma Full HD displays:
 
Samsung PN64F8500
No final decision, but we are testing for possible inclusion LG’s 60PB6900
 
OLED Full HD:
LG’s new 55EC9300
 
Day Two the 4K Ultra HD Competition
 
LCD/LED 4K Ultra HD displays:
 
Sony XBR-65X950B full array locally dimmed
Samsung UN65HU8550
Samsung UN65HU9000
LG 65UB9800 or the 79" UB9800
Toshiba 65L9400U full array locally dimmed
 
OLED 4K Ultra HD:
 
LG’s 77EC9800

"I’d like to include Vizio’s reference series, but it’s not launching till the fall if at all.  Also I’ll ask Panasonic if they would like to participate with their new TC-65AX900U 4K LCD/LED TV.
Here’s a few more tidbits.  On day one we’re doing the 1080p Shootout.  However, at the opening of the event we’ll light up the Ultra HD Shootout wall, discuss the models and some of our findings.  At the conclusion of each of the two days we’ll have a q/a with the expert panelists; attendees and cyberspace questions and comments will be answered. 
 
"Also on both days before the attendees leave we’ll announce the winner of the competition Shootout.  At the conclusion of day two we’ll put the winners of day one (1080p) and day two (UHD) butt next to each other, and we’ll demonstrate 1080p and Ultra 4K, unconverted and down converted and we’ll have the audience pass the two displays in a line at 1.5 x the screen height to see if they can see the advantages of UHD.
 
"Regarding the actual event date we are pushing for the earliest possible date, but coordination of our long term team of expert panelists, headed by Kevin Miller, DeDayne (Davis D-Nice), David Mackenzie and Ed Johnson along with our Videographer Joe So So,  inclusion of all of the displays that come from our stock of random inventory is some of the items that must be taken into account.  I’m also working with our previous VIP guests to be sure they will be available, and I have a few new special VIP guests attending this year and I’d like to accommodate all of these VIP guests.  At this moment, it looks like the earliest date is June 27th, and I’m sure it will be no later than July 11th.  
 
"This is all I have at this moment and much of this is still fluid so if some of this changes, please understand that all of this is still subject to our final testing of each display and the manufacturers' final decisions.  Even some of my ideas and all of the changes that are triggered by our inclusion of 4K Ultra HD are subject to change.
 
This will be our biggest and most exciting and interesting Shootout.  In the past nine years we’ve had between 6 and 8 displays competing; this year, our tenth video evaluation Shootout, we’ll have many more TVs." - Robert Zohn  
 
 
 
 
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Last edited by imagic; 07-08-2014 at 04:53 PM.
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post #2 of 608 Old 02-24-2014, 02:40 PM
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I was scheduled to be at the 2013 Shootout but when the date was finalized, I was to be just getting off a cruise ship with my wife and it was impossible to get to New York in time.

I have already contacted Robert and I am set for the 2014 Shootout. No cruise this year to stop me. Because of the 2013 Shootout, I purchased a Samsung 64F8500. What will it be this year???????????????



m
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It's in my opinion, Plasmas should not be in the shootout until they have at least 500 hours on them - too many changes still going on at the previous 165 hours chosen

(or at what point in hours of use, will a Plasma be at it's Best!?)
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It's in my opinion, Plasmas should not be in the shootout until they have at least 500 hours on them - too many changes still going on at the previous 165 hours chosen

There is some drift with plasma phosphors, but for the purposes of a comparison, the calibration will hold for long enough that it's a non-issue. Waiting 500 hours before performing a professional calibration is probably worthwhile for a home installation.


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post #5 of 608 Old 02-24-2014, 03:57 PM
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Last year's best LED, the Samsung 4K FALD, was not present at the shootout. Also a very expensive 4K Sony was not present. Top TVs that will cost more than $10.000 might not be present at a VE shootout because they are to expensive to handover for a shootout. Also they want to sell these TVs, and when a TV finishes last in a shootout that might not be good for sales. I would like to see that in threads like this such TVs get their fair share of attention.
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Last year's best LED, the Samsung 4K FALD, was not present at the shootout. Also a very expensive 4K Sony was not present. Top TVs that will cost more than $10.000 might not be present at a VE shootout because they are to expensive to handover for a shootout. Also they want to sell these TVs, and when a TV finishes last in a shootout that might not be good for sales. I would like to see that in threads like this such TVs get their fair share of attention.

 

Sony's XBR900A was in last year's shootout. The low prices of the plasmas only reflect what a good deal the technology represents.

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post #7 of 608 Old 02-24-2014, 04:07 PM
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Its a retailer that holds these - I'd like to see a complete field as well along with ALL measurements released and not just the votes and a couple of calibration charts being released as 'evidence'; its lost a lot of value to me since 2012 which was the last time they released any of the detailed data.
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definitely will be interested in this years, but that's it, as an interest.

I feel that as much as 2013 was a great year to buy a new tv(st60, vt60, zt60, f8500 were all unreal performers and a great value at their respective levels), 2014 will likely be a terrible year to buy, as we will likely see the half-arsed attempts to clear out what's left of plasma parts, and the 'not-quite-ready' offerings from oled. BUT, it should give us the first, and best chance to really get an idea of how those two technologies compare, and a taste of how hard we should be holding onto our plasmas over the next couple of years.

last year's event really helped me decide(or validate as I had already brought home the f8500) my purchase.
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I have already bought the Panasonic 65VT60 and I am happy with it. I am just curious as to whether or not Vizio will be showing their 65" Reference series? From what I have read so far, it should do quite well and may be priced more affordably than the competition. Only time will tell.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic 
Sony's XBR900A was in last year's shootout. The low prices of the plasmas only reflect what a good deal the technology represents.
My point is that the best LEDs were not in the Shootout. The LEDs at the Shootout did not represent the best 2013 LEDs had to offer. On the other hand, we saw the best what 2013 Plasma'' had to offer.

The Samsung 4K UN85S9 ($40.000), LG 4K 84LM9600 ($20.000) and the Sony 4K XBR 84X900 ($25.000) were not in the Shootout. Right, the Sony 4K XBR 65X900A ($7.000) was at the Shootout smile.gif
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My point is that the best LEDs were not in the Shootout. The LEDs at the Shootout did not represent the best 2013 LEDs had to offer. On the other hand, we saw the best what 2013 Plasma'' had to offer.

The Samsung 4K UN85S9 ($40.000), LG 4K 84LM9600 ($20.000) and the Sony 4K XBR 84X900 ($25.000) were not in the Shootout. Right, the Sony 4K XBR 65X900A ($7.000) was at the Shootout smile.gif

 

2013's crop of 84-inch FALD LED-lit LCDs, although beautiful, were not relevant to TV buyers because of astronomical pricing and very limited availability. The same goes for 2013 OLEDs. 2013's best LCDs—aside from the "halo" products—did not quite manage to beat plasma picture quality.

2014 is another story, with the return of backlit arrays there's a good chance an LCD can perform in the same league as a plasma, while adding UHD resolution to the mix. Motion resolution is probably the biggest sticking point when it comes to LCD matching plasma quality, along with viewing angles. Contemporary LED-lit LCDs are doing pretty good in the on-axis black levels department.

 

This year OLED promises to achieve unprecedented contrast and black levels plus UHD resolution. The plan is to include OLED in the shootout, hopefully the 2014 models ship in time for the shootout.


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post #12 of 608 Old 02-25-2014, 08:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

Its a retailer that holds these - I'd like to see a complete field as well along with ALL measurements released and not just the votes and a couple of calibration charts being released as 'evidence'; its lost a lot of value to me since 2012 which was the last time they released any of the detailed data.

 

I'm going "behind the scenes" this year, to watch them calibrate the displays and set up the showroom for the shootout. Robert Zohn has offered me transparent access to the entire proceeding.

 

Frankly, that's a tough crowd in the audience, it would be quite a trick to fool everyone in that room, including AVS members, top TV critics, and reps from each manufacturer. Not to mention that the votes end up mirroring the general consensus that emerges throughout the rest of the year regarding which TVs are best.


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post #13 of 608 Old 02-25-2014, 08:08 AM
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what are you babbling about? I want the detailed measurements. Consequetly if the detailed measurements had been released in 2013 less people would have been blindsided by the floating black issues of the F8500 as the ansi luminance charts would have shown that quite clearly...
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what are you babbling about? I want the detailed measurements. Consequetly if the detailed measurements had been released in 2013 less people would have been blindsided by the floating black issues of the F8500 as the ansi luminance charts would have shown that quite clearly...

 

It can't hurt to ask if they will be made available this year. It's not clear if the calibrated modes used for last year's shootout would have triggered FB in the first place.

What I was babbling about... if there was a noticeable issue with floating blacks on the F8500, as it was calibrated for last year's shootout, then it would have been apparent to some of the people in the room.

 

I'm not sure how many people were blindsided by the F8500 per se, anyone looking for the ultimate in black level performance knew that the ZT60 was the best in that category. The F8500's merits have more to do with how bright it can get.

 


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post #15 of 608 Old 02-25-2014, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
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Quote:
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My point is that the best LEDs were not in the Shootout. The LEDs at the Shootout did not represent the best 2013 LEDs had to offer. On the other hand, we saw the best what 2013 Plasma'' had to offer.


The Samsung 4K UN85S9 ($40.000), LG 4K 84LM9600 ($20.000) and the Sony 4K XBR 84X900 ($25.000) were not in the Shootout. Right, the Sony 4K XBR 65X900A ($7.000) was at the Shootout smile.gif

2013's crop of 84-inch FALD LED-lit LCDs, although beautiful, were not relevant to TV buyers because of astronomical pricing and very limited availability.

I don't think relevance to tv buyers and pricing are the biggest factors of set selection either. The ST60 I would argue was of relevance to a good chunk of buyers that wanted top end performance for low pricing and is 'videophile' worthy, but it also was not present. Can't say it wouldn't have been able to hold its own at the event either since it clearly would not have been in last place based on the measurements that were eventually released on its performance.
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I will be attending as I have to most of them. Will see you there Mark.
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post #17 of 608 Old 02-25-2014, 08:48 AM - Thread Starter
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I don't think relevance to tv buyers and pricing are the biggest factors of set selection either. The ST60 I would argue was of relevance to a good chunk of buyers that wanted top end performance for low pricing and is 'videophile' worthy, but it also was not present. Can't say it wouldn't have been able to hold its own at the event either since it clearly would not have been in last place based on the measurements that were eventually released on its performance.

Yes, but the goal of the shootout is to find the best TV that is relevant to buyers, not the least-expensive plasma that can mop the floor with its LCD competition.

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post #18 of 608 Old 02-25-2014, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

I don't think relevance to tv buyers and pricing are the biggest factors of set selection either. The ST60 I would argue was of relevance to a good chunk of buyers that wanted top end performance for low pricing and is 'videophile' worthy, but it also was not present. Can't say it wouldn't have been able to hold its own at the event either since it clearly would not have been in last place based on the measurements that were eventually released on its performance.
Yes, but the goal of the shootout is to find the best TV that is relevant to buyers, not the least-expensive plasma that can mop the floor with its LCD competition.

You are entitled to your own impressions of the ST60 of course. I don't think Dewayne Davis would consider his ST60 purchase as mopping up the floor with the LCD crowd from 2013. I think his impressions along with other esteemed videophiles such as David Katzmier line up closer to my own on that account. In any case, if us consumers get full disclosure of the results its better for us when it comes time to make a decision since some of us are looking for different things and even if you don't understand the implications of the some of the measured results there are those that do and would greatly appreciate them being made available again.
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post #19 of 608 Old 02-25-2014, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic 

2013's crop of 84-inch FALD LED-lit LCDs, although beautiful, were not relevant to TV buyers because of astronomical pricing and very limited availability. The same goes for 2013 OLEDs.
 Only the cheap stuff is relevant to buyers ( $200 - $1.000). The VT60/ZT60 and F8500 are to expensive for most buyers. I do understand the ''limited availability'', argument. Nevertheless it seems to me that VE wanted to include some of these expensive TVs but manufacturers were not willing to hand them out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic 
2014 is another story, with the return of backlit arrays there's a good chance an LCD can perform in the same league as a plasma, while adding UHD resolution to the mix. Motion resolution is probably the biggest sticking point when it comes to LCD matching plasma quality, along with viewing angles. Contemporary LED-lit LCDs are doing pretty good in the on-axis black levels department.

This year OLED promises to achieve unprecedented contrast and black levels plus UHD resolution. The plan is to include OLED in the shootout, hopefully the 2014 models ship in time for the shootout.

I hope to see the Vizio and the Sony top of the line and some OLED stuff.
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post #20 of 608 Old 02-25-2014, 09:11 AM - Thread Starter
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You are entitled to your own impressions of the ST60 of course. I don't think Dewayne Davis would consider his ST60 purchase as mopping up the floor with the LCD crowd from 2013. I think his impressions along with other esteemed videophiles such as David Katzmier line up closer to my own on that account. In any case, if us consumers get full disclosure of the results its better for us when it comes time to make a decision since some of us are looking for different things and even if you don't understand the implications of the some of the measured results there those that do and would greatly appreciate them being made available again.

 

I'm quite familiar with all of these TVs and I know David. Check out this article I wrote a few months back about a visit to CNETs facilities. Maybe you are misunderstanding me?
 

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"For the LCD units, I requested a Vizio M551D and a Samsung UN55F8000. For the plasma, I requested a Panasonic TC-P60ST60—a TV with the distinction of having earned the highest rating ever from CNET. The Panasonic plasma received its top ranking because of the overall value it represents, as opposed to being the ultimate in producing a reference-quality picture. At the last minute, we decided to add a fourth TV—Sony's KDL-55W900A LCD TV. Then, temptation struck again and we decided to toss in 2013's best-performing plasma panel, Panasonic's TC-P60ZT60. There were dozens of TVs to choose from, even a Kuro of some sort that was sitting in a dark corner waiting for another chance to shine." Mark Henninger - read more

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post #21 of 608 Old 02-25-2014, 09:30 AM
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Entirely possible. I do find It difficult to reconcile your statements. You say that the ST60 would be mopping up the floor with the LCD's of 2013 but then you also say, "The bigger surprise was how close the ST60 gets to the ZT60 in terms of image quality" in that article. The latter is a statement I agree with in this case. The 2013 LCD's present at the shootout are not ones I would say were very close to the ZT60 in terms of image quality.
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post #22 of 608 Old 02-25-2014, 09:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

Entirely possible. I do find It difficult to reconcile your statements. You say that the ST60 would be mopping up the floor with the LCD's of 2013 but then you also say, "The bigger surprise was how close the ST60 gets to the ZT60 in terms of image quality" in that article. The latter is a statement I agree with in this case. The 2013 LCD's present at the shootout are not ones I would say were very close to the ZT60 in terms of image quality.

 

http://onlineslangdictionary.com/meaning-definition-of/mop-the-floor-with

 


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post #23 of 608 Old 02-25-2014, 09:44 AM
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LOL! now that makes sense. This whole time I'm thinking you are trying to say its doing latrine duty with the other rejects. My urban slang is a bit out of date.
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post #24 of 608 Old 02-25-2014, 09:55 AM
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It can't hurt to ask if they will be made available this year. It's not clear if the calibrated modes used for last year's shootout would have triggered FB in the first place.


What I was babbling about... if there was a noticeable issue with floating blacks on the F8500, as it was calibrated for last year's shootout, then it would have been apparent to some of the people in the room.

I'm not sure how many people were blindsided by the F8500 per se, anyone looking for the ultimate in black level performance knew that the ZT60 was the best in that category. The F8500's merits have more to do with how bright it can get.


 

i kind of like the way they do it now. it's way too easy for some keyboard jockey to look at some numbers and put way more meaning into them then they really deserve. somebody will read a display has an MLL of .0017 and peak white of 189, while a second has an MLL of .0019 and a peak of 250, and jump all over than second display for have 'terrible' blacks compared to the first. or point out that the first displays peak white is 'super dim'. yet in the showroom, either difference might be unnoticeable yet some other hard to define quality between the two of them is obviously different.

the numbers are good if you don't trust the people looking at the displays. the numbers are bad, if they're being interpreted by ppl who haven't seen the displays.

i will admit however, i wish i'd know what the BO on the f8500 actually did. it PROBABLY would have steered me back to panasonic, or at least gotten me to wait until the zt60's were released. not to say i'm unhappy with the f8500, but i'm less certain i made the right choice now. part of the reason i kept the f8500 was the measured black levels being pretty close, and under the best viewing conditions i could manage in display rooms, that appeared true. The brightness of the f8500 is completely moot for me, it's far too bright under any reasonable viewing condition for me, and the cell light is turned down to 50% and still feels on the bright side.

but, i don't know how posting numbers would have fixed this, as it was posted numbers that caused this. the f8500 does have a great MLL, but it achieves it in a different way than the panny's. that's something that needs to be seen, not measured imo. i don't care if black levels rise, i care whether or not i can perceive those rising black levels.

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post #25 of 608 Old 02-25-2014, 10:15 AM
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I've had my Panasonic 65VT60 plasma since May (calibrated by Chad B) and have been absolutely thrilled with it. It really has a very warm, rich, yet natural image and the contrast is often stunning as I only view in a dark room around 31 ftL. I briefly had a Samsung 64F8500 plasma side by side with it, but the blacks definitely stood out to me on the VT60 and I didn't need the extra light output of the Samsung.

I've taken the next step designing a dedicated room with a front projection set-up (JVC RS4810) eyeing a 109" wide 2:35 screen and hope to have everything up and going within a few weeks. I guess you could say flat panels are not as much of a concern to me now although being an enthusiast I still have general interest and will be curious of the Shootout results.

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Unlike last year, let's hope that they show 4K vs 2K live this year. So they will have to use a quality 4K .h265 source that also has a 1080p counterpart. Last year they did not let the sets display the same source in 4K that the 1080p set were showing in the audience shootout. That would be like limiting all the sets to 25FL of brightness, just because the plasmas can not go brighter. Made no sense.
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post #27 of 608 Old 02-25-2014, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

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My point is that the best LEDs were not in the Shootout. The LEDs at the Shootout did not represent the best 2013 LEDs had to offer. On the other hand, we saw the best what 2013 Plasma'' had to offer.


The Samsung 4K UN85S9 ($40.000), LG 4K 84LM9600 ($20.000) and the Sony 4K XBR 84X900 ($25.000) were not in the Shootout. Right, the Sony 4K XBR 65X900A ($7.000) was at the Shootout smile.gif

2013's crop of 84-inch FALD LED-lit LCDs, although beautiful, were not relevant to TV buyers because of astronomical pricing and very limited availability. The same goes for 2013 OLEDs. 2013's best LCDs—aside from the "halo" products—did not quite manage to beat plasma picture quality.


2014 is another story, with the return of backlit arrays there's a good chance an LCD can perform in the same league as a plasma, while adding UHD resolution to the mix. Motion resolution is probably the biggest sticking point when it comes to LCD matching plasma quality, along with viewing angles. Contemporary LED-lit LCDs are doing pretty good in the on-axis black levels department.

This year OLED promises to achieve unprecedented contrast and black levels plus UHD resolution. The plan is to include OLED in the shootout, hopefully the 2014 models ship in time for the shootout.

Mark,

thanks for starting this thread (first time I have been drawn to the 'Community News and Polls' Forum biggrin.gif )

Any insight you can provide into earliest / latest timing for the shootout as well as panels that are hoped to be included in the 1080p shootout and the UHD shootout would be greatly appreciated as soon as you have any insight.

I, for one, greatly appreciated last year's VE shootout. Of course, the value depends completely on the honesty and lack-of-agenda of the parties running the shootout, but there are enough participants from the videophile community that I am comfortable that the results reflect are about as objective of an assessment as possible in today's world.

It's a key question regarding what threshold to impose on 'the best' for participation in the shootout. The shootout is valuable to me because I can imagine springing for every panel that has been shown. That would not be the case if there were panels running into the 5 digits...

Looking at this years crop of panels, the 65" Sony 950B has had an MSRP of $8000 leaked, and I would suggest that this is an appropriate 'upper limit' for the MSRP of panels accepted in the shootout. As far as lower limit, I don't believe there should be any lower limit on price, but there should be a minimum quality standard that avoids comparing against panels that are too inferior. Last years worst-panel the Panasonic WT60 scored 6.1/ 6.8 (Audience/Expert) representing 67%/76% of the respective top scores. I feel this is appropriate but would not like to see it go any lower than that in terms of quality. Ideally, I'd like to see a panel accepted into the shootout only if an informal assessment indicates that it has a chance of performing 75% as well as the top level of expected performance.

The only other request I would have is, with LED/LCD becoming a more important technology in the shootout this year and going forward, it would be great to have off-angle performance added as a category to be assessed by both audience and experts (perhaps at some nominal viewing angle like +/- 30 degrees off-axis).

Will be eagerly awaiting whatever updates you have to provide on this topic.

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post #28 of 608 Old 02-25-2014, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sytech View Post

Unlike last year, let's hope that they show 4K vs 2K live this year. So they will have to use a quality 4K .h265 source that also has a 1080p counterpart. Last year they did not let the sets display the same source in 4K that the 1080p set were showing in the audience shootout. That would be like limiting all the sets to 25FL of brightness, just because the plasmas can not go brighter. Made no sense.

My thoughts exactly. I'm not sure how people think they can compare 4K to 2K, it's almost like comparing a bicycle to motorbike.

I hope that when they have the "ultimate showdown" between HD and UHD winner, they perceive the 4K gloriousness as a unquestionable superiority over 1080p resolution of the same video.

Comparing upscaled 1080p source on a 4K to native 1080p screen completely negates the point of 4K TV's existence. It would be like comparing a top speed of a race car versus a road car, with the race car speed limited to that of a road car. It's utterly non-sensical.

 

To me 4K resolution offers a PQ upgrade of let's say a factor of 100, while 2K plasma's PQ superiority over 2K LED was maybe a factor of 5.

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post #29 of 608 Old 02-25-2014, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soapbox View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by sytech View Post

Unlike last year, let's hope that they show 4K vs 2K live this year. So they will have to use a quality 4K .h265 source that also has a 1080p counterpart. Last year they did not let the sets display the same source in 4K that the 1080p set were showing in the audience shootout. That would be like limiting all the sets to 25FL of brightness, just because the plasmas can not go brighter. Made no sense.
My thoughts exactly. I'm not sure how people think they can compare 4K to 2K, it's almost like comparing a bicycle to motorbike.
I hope that when they have the "ultimate showdown" between HD and UHD winner, they perceive the 4K gloriousness as a unquestionable superiority over 1080p resolution of the same video.
Comparing upscaled 1080p source on a 4K to native 1080p screen completely negates the point of 4K TV's existence. It would be like comparing a top speed of a race car versus a road car, with the race car speed limited to that of a road car. It's utterly non-sensical.

To me 4K resolution offers a PQ upgrade of let's say a factor of 100, while 2K plasma's PQ superiority over 2K LED was maybe a factor of 5.

Ideally, they would run the UHD vs. HD shootout twice, once with 1080p content and once with true UHD content. Also, the distance for that UHD vs HD shootout should be carefully thought through and tied to a common screen size such s 65" (and the distance for the test should possibly be the subject of a poll here on AVS Forum...).

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post #30 of 608 Old 02-25-2014, 01:47 PM
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what are you babbling about? I want the detailed measurements. Consequetly if the detailed measurements had been released in 2013 less people would have been blindsided by the floating black issues of the F8500 as the ansi luminance charts would have shown that quite clearly...

Oh c'mon, really, 'babbling'? The audience was so ignorant of floating blacks? Really? I bought the F8500 based on Robert's shootout and haven't regretted it for a second...nor have I been bothered by floating blacks for a second.

As for the stats in detail, as I've said in various threads 1,000 times, stats are great and can serve a purpose, but in the end we watch the picture or listen to the sound. I trust my eyes and ears far more than any given stat. I know some people on these forums that actually feel the opposite. They think if they see something one way, but the stats say it should be the other way, they just assume their eyes or ears are lying.

I'll be attending the Saturday night session since I'm primarily interested in 4K at this point. I can't see spending significant $$$ for 2K anymore.

As always, it should be a great show and we are always in debt to Robert for this 'one and only' chance to see the top performers battling it out! smile.gif
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