Do You Prefer 2-Channel or Multichannel Music Recordings? - Page 7 - AVS Forum
View Poll Results: Do You Prefer 2-Channel or Multichannel Music Recordings?
2-channel 180 35.86%
Multichannel, audience perspective 184 36.65%
Multichannel, stage perspective 96 19.12%
I've never heard a multichannel music recording 42 8.37%
Voters: 502. You may not vote on this poll

Forum Jump: 
 125Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #181 of 363 Old 07-08-2014, 11:00 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Frank Derks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Region A,B,C
Posts: 1,897
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 103 Post(s)
Liked: 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by joehonest View Post
So maybe for real life music lovers, it would be best if all 5.1+ channels were used for the front sound stage.
Have you actually been in a concert hall with a good seating position?
The sound is far more enveloping than you think.
Frank Derks is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #182 of 363 Old 07-08-2014, 11:06 AM
Advanced Member
 
joehonest's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 983
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 69 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Derks View Post
Have you actually been in a concert hall with a good seating position?
The sound is far more enveloping than you think.
Have you ever listened to a clean high output full range stereo (2.2) system?

Last edited by joehonest; 07-08-2014 at 11:10 AM.
joehonest is offline  
post #183 of 363 Old 07-08-2014, 11:11 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Monterey Park, CA
Posts: 19,888
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1430 Post(s)
Liked: 1029
Quote:
Originally Posted by joehonest View Post
In real life the starting point of the music is in one small area , say right in front of you ( unless you got the cheap seats). Does 2 channel audio do that, yes it does. So what are the rears for?
For everything else. Performers aren't playing music in a vacuum. There is an entire venue surrounding them. The ambience from that venue does make it into live recordings and can clearly be heard in the background.

The question is how do you play back that recorded ambience at home. From the same 2 speakers up front so that it comes from the same direction as the performers? Or from another pair of speakers along your sides so that it emanates laterally like it originally did at the venue?

I could understand the resistance if you were being asked to get risky brain surgery to have implants installed. But we're talking a couple more speakers. Not unreasonable for folks in this hobby.
Quote:
Originally Posted by joehonest View Post
Have you ever listened to a clean high output full range stereo system?
Sure, and the ambience still came from the wrong direction (in front of me).

Sanjay
sdurani is offline  
post #184 of 363 Old 07-08-2014, 11:18 AM
Advanced Member
 
joehonest's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 983
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 69 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Sure, and the ambience still came from the wrong direction (in front of me).
You don't have the volume high enough!!!!
"I could understand the resistance"?? Its what I like better, I like MCM at low volumes, sometimes it really does work for me (mood), just that very loud 2 channel is my first choice when I want to party!

Last edited by joehonest; 07-08-2014 at 11:49 AM.
joehonest is offline  
post #185 of 363 Old 07-08-2014, 11:50 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Ovation's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: St. Hubert, Quebec, Canada
Posts: 3,270
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by joehonest View Post
So maybe for real life music lovers, it would be best if all 5.1+ channels were used for the front sound stage.
Hell, that would work out perfect for a 4 or 5 piece band !
Way to miss the point completely.
Ovation is offline  
post #186 of 363 Old 07-08-2014, 11:55 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Monterey Park, CA
Posts: 19,888
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1430 Post(s)
Liked: 1029
Quote:
Originally Posted by joehonest View Post
You don't have the volume high enough!!!!
Increasing level doesn't change direction. It will still come from in front of me, just louder.

Sanjay
sdurani is offline  
post #187 of 363 Old 07-08-2014, 12:01 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Frank Derks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Region A,B,C
Posts: 1,897
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 103 Post(s)
Liked: 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by joehonest View Post
Have you ever listened to a clean high output full range stereo (2.2) system?

Yes, but I don't need sound pressure levels higher than the actual spl levels in a concert hall at the optimal seating position.
My system can go much louder cleanly than the preferred spl levels I usually listen to. (And those are already north of the WAF).


In the future I wan't to keep enjoying mc music instead of streaming to a couple of SOTA hearing aids.


And you didn't answer my question.
Frank Derks is offline  
post #188 of 363 Old 07-08-2014, 12:05 PM
AVS Special Member
 
eljr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Futuristic London
Posts: 4,382
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 266 Post(s)
Liked: 1404
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ovation View Post
Actually, it's been answered several times, quite well and clearly. Persisting in thinking otherwise is just stubbornness-

or the explanation just does not hold enough water to wet the whistle

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
eljr is offline  
post #189 of 363 Old 07-08-2014, 12:09 PM
AVS Special Member
 
eljr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Futuristic London
Posts: 4,382
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 266 Post(s)
Liked: 1404
I don't think anyone denied that surround done right can sound awesome, what kind of validation is it you guys need?

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
eljr is offline  
post #190 of 363 Old 07-08-2014, 12:17 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Frank Derks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Region A,B,C
Posts: 1,897
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 103 Post(s)
Liked: 89
From


Quote:
Originally Posted by eljr View Post
like a gimmick or candy as it were

the novelty of multi-channel is entertaining but until a live performance is standardly presented the same I'll stick to two channel.

i just don't see music as a thrill ride. leave that for the movies.

to


Quote:
Originally Posted by eljr View Post
I don't think anyone denied that surround done right can sound awesome, what kind of validation is it you guys need?
Progress
Frank Derks is offline  
post #191 of 363 Old 07-08-2014, 12:20 PM
AVS Special Member
 
billmich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Metro Detroit
Posts: 1,458
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 76 Post(s)
Liked: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
increasing level doesn't change direction. It will still come from in front of me, just louder.
lol
billmich is online now  
post #192 of 363 Old 07-08-2014, 12:30 PM
Advanced Member
 
joehonest's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 983
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 69 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ovation View Post
Way to miss the point completely.
Maybe, they should put all those channels to better use, a channel for each sound source across the stage.
eljr likes this.
joehonest is offline  
post #193 of 363 Old 07-08-2014, 12:30 PM
AVS Special Member
 
eljr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Futuristic London
Posts: 4,382
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 266 Post(s)
Liked: 1404
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Derks View Post
From





to




Progress
if you feel you made a point I am happy for you

I think you left out much of what was in the middle though.

peace out

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
eljr is offline  
post #194 of 363 Old 07-08-2014, 12:32 PM
AVS Special Member
 
eljr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Futuristic London
Posts: 4,382
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 266 Post(s)
Liked: 1404
Quote:
Originally Posted by joehonest View Post
Maybe, they should put all those channels to better use, a channel for each sound source across the stage.
that would make sense to me so I am sure you will be pelted for saying it!

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
eljr is offline  
post #195 of 363 Old 07-08-2014, 12:41 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Frank Derks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Region A,B,C
Posts: 1,897
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 103 Post(s)
Liked: 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by joehonest View Post
Maybe, they should put all those channels to better use, a channel for each sound source across the stage.

Would you be happy with only two instruments or one instrument and a vocal in a stereo setup?
Frank Derks is offline  
post #196 of 363 Old 07-08-2014, 12:46 PM
Advanced Member
 
joehonest's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 983
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 69 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Derks View Post
Have you actually been in a concert hall with a good seating position?
The sound is far more enveloping than you think.
Yes, large and small, overall I would buy the CD, beer and booze and better hardware before I buy tickets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Derks View Post
Yes, but I don't need sound pressure levels higher than the actual spl levels in a concert hall at the optimal seating position.
My system can go much louder cleanly than the preferred spl levels I usually listen to. (And those are already north of the WAF).
In the future I wan't to keep enjoying mc music instead of streaming to a couple of SOTA hearing aids.

And you didn't answer my question.
Smart,, ringing ears can't be a good sign, but at a rock concert its all the same in the end..
Did I answer your question?
joehonest is offline  
post #197 of 363 Old 07-08-2014, 12:49 PM
Advanced Member
 
joehonest's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 983
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 69 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Derks View Post
Would you be happy with only two instruments or one instrument and a vocal in a stereo setup?
That would be up to the artist. If it sounds real, I'm good with it..
joehonest is offline  
post #198 of 363 Old 07-08-2014, 12:53 PM
Advanced Member
 
HockeyoAJB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 755
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 221 Post(s)
Liked: 245
Quote:
Originally Posted by joehonest View Post
Maybe, they should put all those channels to better use, a channel for each sound source across the stage.
Recording and reproducing audio in this manner isn't really practical using channel-based mixes since there is too much fluctuation from one person's setup to the next and from one performance to the next. However, object-based audio might provide a solution for this, if done properly. It's probably only a matter of time until somebody releases an album in Dolby Atmos.
HockeyoAJB is offline  
post #199 of 363 Old 07-08-2014, 12:59 PM
Advanced Member
 
joehonest's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 983
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 69 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyoAJB View Post
Recording and reproducing audio in this manner isn't really practical using channel-based mixes since there is too much fluctuation from one person's setup to the next and from one performance to the next. However, object-based audio might provide a solution for this, if done properly. It's probably only a matter of time until somebody releases an album in Dolby Atmos.
I don't see how that would be any better in MC playback just another set of speakers to mess up the sound, I'll let someone else spend $$$ and I'll judge it with my checkbook..
I must say that MC playback is good for low volume listening, it does sound full and rich most of the time. Maybe Dolby Atmos will make it sound good at even lower volume levels, is that the idea?
The year is 2024, AVRs will have 128 channels 20 watts each... I just spent more on copper speaker wire than the new AVR!!!! Wait,,news flash all the speakers are blue tooth and with solar/IR powered amps, copper wire rare due to the war effort...

Last edited by joehonest; 07-08-2014 at 01:27 PM.
joehonest is offline  
post #200 of 363 Old 07-08-2014, 04:01 PM
AVS Special Member
 
DS-21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,573
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 224 Post(s)
Liked: 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by joehonest View Post


In real life the starting point of the music is in one small area , say right in front of you ( unless you got the cheap seats). Does 2 channel audio do that, yes it does. So what are the rears for?

First, please learn to read a graphic and the accompanying text. As the graphic you quoted clearly shows, and the accompanying text further discusses, the Philharmonie actually has most of its seats behind the orchestra. When one starts from a position of willful ignorance then civilized discussion is not possible.

But to the broader point, the music starts right in front of you, but it goes all around you. You hear reflections off of the walls, the floor, the ceiling, the balconies, etc. Now, there's no reason that a mere 2-channel recording couldn't capture the direct sound from that seat. But, no matter where someone sits, multiple channels are required to capture the sound of the hall in addition to the sound of the musicians.

I guess for a "they are here" perspective multichannel may not be that useful. But if one at all aspires to a "you are there" perspective in reproduction, a good multichannel mix is the only way to consistently get there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eljr View Post
that;s a very egotistical claim
So what? It strikes me as quite egotistical to presume that a format that was crippleware from the start (mere 2 channel) is the be all end all because of idiotic reasons such as "we have two ears" or "the musicians are up front (usually)."

Again, mere 2 channel is crippleware. Don't forget that. Stereo was supposed to have LCR speakers. But back then we didn't have modern digital encoding and playback. "Encoding" was by cutters that dug ditches into tar plates. "Decoding" involved dragging a rock through those ditches. That system could not support three discrete channels. So the music industry crippled it from the start by reducing it to two channels.

Recordings done before stereo was crammed down to mere 2-channel, such as the 3-channel Mercury Living Presence SACD's, show us exactly how much was lost in the cramdown.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joehonest View Post
So maybe for real life music lovers, it would be best if all 5.1+ channels were used for the front sound stage.
Hell, that would work out perfect for a 4 or 5 piece band !
Sigh.

--
"In many cases there aren’t two sides unless one side is 'reality' and the other is 'nonsense.'" - Phil Plait
Serious Audio Blog 
Multichannel music (and video) urban loft living room system 

Last edited by DS-21; 07-08-2014 at 04:08 PM.
DS-21 is offline  
post #201 of 363 Old 07-08-2014, 04:50 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Ovation's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: St. Hubert, Quebec, Canada
Posts: 3,270
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 28
There's really little point, in the end, with arguing with those afflicted with cognitive dissonance (as your fine efforts have clearly and sadly demonstrated). I recommend pulling out a favourite MCH recording, sitting back and relaxing with it. It's what I plan to do later on this evening.
Ovation is offline  
post #202 of 363 Old 07-08-2014, 04:51 PM
AVS Special Member
 
8mile13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 4,165
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 413 Post(s)
Liked: 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Derks View Post
There is no extra 'complexity' added. The ear brain is simply acting on changing (sound) pressure levels on the two available eardrums.
It would only be more complex for the brain if it had to deal with signals coming from five ears instead of two.
We are not just dealing wih the ear brain.
Instruments coming from all kind of directions instead of limited direction. The brain has to deal with that, not just on a ear brain level.

I could claim that listening to stereo ,as a less complete artificial world than multichannel, is more complex and fatiguing for the brain as it attempts to fill in the missing information that normally occurs in the natural environment.
Being surrounded with sound is more intens which is additionally fatiguing.

Evolutionairy being surrounded by sound reminds of the wild and limited sound direction of safety (a cave. remember the cave man?). The brain will make those associations to. So subconsiously on some level it will be more at easy with limited sound direction.

There are all kind of factors at play. Some are in favour of Multi-channel others in favour of stereo.
8mile13 is offline  
post #203 of 363 Old 07-08-2014, 05:19 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Frank Derks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Region A,B,C
Posts: 1,897
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 103 Post(s)
Liked: 89
Well as long you are happy rubbing two sticks together (stereo) to make fire the more evolved humans do have more options to light a fire.
Frank Derks is offline  
post #204 of 363 Old 07-09-2014, 11:31 AM
Advanced Member
 
JediFonger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 650
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 36 Post(s)
Liked: 14
when the beatles mixed stereo for the 1st time, you can haer their playfulness. same w/1st few albums of Pink Floyd. that is what i enjoy. gone are those playfulness.

i feel like most "stereo" music sounds like MONO. the obsession over audience/stage perspective killed innovation.

i DONT want vocals locked dead center. i want it panning gimmicky and experimented on. the beatles knew that and placed vocals on right or left and put specific instruments right inside of 1 speaker or somewhere to the right of center or left of center.

to the edge of eternity and depth of infinity, stupidity knows no bound.
JediFonger is offline  
post #205 of 363 Old 07-09-2014, 12:21 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Monterey Park, CA
Posts: 19,888
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1430 Post(s)
Liked: 1029
Not sure the Beatles were being playful or just didn't understand how to use stereo. Seems like they thought two tracks of sound meant dividing up the vocals & instruments to either track. Their later stereo mixes show that they understood how to create a soundstage by adjusting the proportions of vocals & instruments mixed to both tracks.

Sanjay
sdurani is offline  
post #206 of 363 Old 07-09-2014, 12:42 PM
AVS Special Member
 
NuSoardGraphite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Tucson AZ
Posts: 1,411
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 44 Post(s)
Liked: 113
I've never heard a multi-channel music recording before. I very much want to, but I do not have a player capable of SACD playback. Nor do I have a computer capable of true multi-channel playback. Maybe I can download something in PCM format, save it to a flash drive and play it from my receiver. Not sure if that will work. I could do a DVD-A disc, but my player would only read the lossy DD or DTS track. That's probably my best bet at the moment. Just to try it out to see if I like the multi-channel aspects. If so, then I would eventually invest in a multi-format player like an Oppo or something if I wanted to begin collecting multi-channel music. (unfortunately most of my favorites aren't available in multi-channel. I know, I've looked. Extensively)

Stand tall and shake the heavens...
NuSoardGraphite is offline  
post #207 of 363 Old 07-09-2014, 01:17 PM
AVS Special Member
 
JonFo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Big Canoe, GA, USA
Posts: 1,353
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Liked: 21
I'm a big-time supporter of well-done multichannel. So much so, I've designed and built my AV room around that concept using some of the most difficult to integrate speakers (but so rewarding), a full set of large electrostats.

When I play back music that was composed and engineered for multichannel, like most of Steve Wilson's repertoire (Porcupine Tree, Storm Corrosion, Steve Wilson band, etc.) from high-rez DVD-A's or BluRay's, it is substantially better than the 2ch edition. I mean a different experience.

As others have noted, it's not just the localization of sounds in the room, it's the expansion in dynamics as well as the increased clarity that distributing the load enables. One can hear so much 'deeper' into the mix on the MC version, it's a whole new level of performance.

The one thing I will say is, to really appreciate MC to the max, one needs a substantial center channel. I find that many demos or personal experiences of MC that get bad reviews are on inadequate systems or poorly configured setups.
But if you have identical L/C/R or a truly matching center, then it can be a amazing.
JonFo is offline  
post #208 of 363 Old 07-09-2014, 05:12 PM
Member
 
von Levi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 81
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post


Notice that unlike a Musikverein/Concertgebouw shoebox, the Philharmonie has most of its seating behind the orchestra. The podium is in front of the “H.” Indeed, one reason that particular concert was so memorable is that I could literally see into Maestro Ashkenazy’s eyes.
You're looking at the chart backwards

And section H behind the orchestra is actually intended for the choir, but then sold when there is no choir (though sometimes the seats are left empty for acoustical reasons).

At the Musikverein they actually have seating onstage in the corners.
von Levi is offline  
post #209 of 363 Old 07-09-2014, 05:22 PM
Member
 
von Levi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 81
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

Again, mere 2 channel is crippleware. Don't forget that. Stereo was supposed to have LCR speakers. But back then we didn't have modern digital encoding and playback. "Encoding" was by cutters that dug ditches into tar plates. "Decoding" involved dragging a rock through those ditches. That system could not support three discrete channels. So the music industry crippled it from the start by reducing it to two channels.

Recordings done before stereo was crammed down to mere 2-channel, such as the 3-channel Mercury Living Presence SACD's, show us exactly how much was lost in the cramdown.


Sigh.
This is a great point, and to add on, even radio broadcasts in the 1950s were recorded in 3-channel because people were so confident that the hardware and media for playback would quickly catchup with recording technology.

And let's remember just how old surround sound music recordings are.

I'm not surprised that surround sound never took off with music, but you'd think there would at least be another push for 3-channel sound with downloads.
eljr likes this.
von Levi is offline  
post #210 of 363 Old 07-09-2014, 05:22 PM
AVS Special Member
 
DS-21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,573
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 224 Post(s)
Liked: 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by von Levi View Post
You're looking at the chart backwards
No, I'm not.


"Podiumsplätze" is the location of the conductor's podium, in front of the H section. See here:



You could be right about the H section, though. I've never sat there.

--
"In many cases there aren’t two sides unless one side is 'reality' and the other is 'nonsense.'" - Phil Plait
Serious Audio Blog 
Multichannel music (and video) urban loft living room system 

Last edited by DS-21; 07-09-2014 at 05:26 PM.
DS-21 is offline  
Reply Community News & Polls

Tags
frontpage , Polls



Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off