Do You Prefer 2-Channel or Multichannel Music Recordings? - Page 8 - AVS Forum
View Poll Results: Do You Prefer 2-Channel or Multichannel Music Recordings?
2-channel 108 32.93%
Multichannel, audience perspective 124 37.80%
Multichannel, stage perspective 63 19.21%
I've never heard a multichannel music recording 33 10.06%
Voters: 328. You may not vote on this poll

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post #211 of 299 Old 07-09-2014, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post
No, I'm not.


"Podiumsplätze" is the location of the conductor's podium, in front of the H section. See here:



You could be right about the H section, though. I've never sat there.
I've also been there, and you're so wrong on this that I will gladly bet you money. We can put the money in someone's PayPal account, and then have it transferred to me after you call up the Berlin Philharmonic and they tell you I'm right.

Just look at the picture you posted! Everyone sitting behind the orchestra is a member of the choir! There aren't any audience members behind the orchestra in that picture! That guy in the white shirt with his back to the camera is the conductor.

Can I have my money now?
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post #212 of 299 Old 07-09-2014, 05:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by von Levi View Post
I've also been there, and you're so wrong on this that I will gladly bet you money. We can put the money in someone's PayPal account, and then have it transferred to me after you call up the Berlin Philharmonic and they tell you I'm right.

Just look at the picture you posted! Everyone sitting behind the orchestra is a member of the choir! There aren't any audience members behind the orchestra in that picture! That guy in the white shirt with his back to the camera is the conductor.

Can I have my money now?

Actually it could be used for audience or choir so it is multipurpose. Can i have some money to


In this picture the light is on the orchestra which suggests that they are surrounded by an audience.


Here is a picture of a concerthall in Paris in which you can clearly see that the audience is surrounding the orchestra.
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post #213 of 299 Old 07-09-2014, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by von Levi View Post
I will gladly bet you money. We can put the money in someone's PayPal account,
Put it in my account.

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #214 of 299 Old 07-09-2014, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
Actually it could be used for audience or choir so it is multipurpose. Can i have some money to


In this picture the light is on the orchestra which suggests that they are surrounded by an audience.


Here is a picture of a concerthall in Paris in which you can clearly see that the audience is surrounding the orchestra.
I previously noted that the choir seats are sold to the audience when not in use by the choir, so no money for you. And as I also noted, sometimes the choir seats are left empt for acoustical reasons.

I don't dispute that there are some halls that place a lot of seats behind and to the side of the orchestra, but it is still not generally done much.

The reason for these designs are not about sound but sight lines -- making more of the audience feel close to the performers. Shoebox halls have the best sound, but most of the audience is sitting far away.

And while sitting behind the orchestra gives you an interesting perspective, I wouldn't want to do it that often -- the balances are completely off. You have the percussion upfront, and the brass and woodwind bells are facing the wrong way.
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post #215 of 299 Old 07-09-2014, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by eljr View Post
Put it in my account.
This is going to be the easiest money I'll ever make, so if you're willing to function as our escrow bank, I'm game.
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post #216 of 299 Old 07-09-2014, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by von Levi View Post
if you're willing to function as our escrow bank
I did not say that.

I just encouraged the two of you to put the money in my account.

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #217 of 299 Old 07-09-2014, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by von Levi View Post
I've also been there, and you're so wrong on this that I will gladly bet you money.
I am indeed, and you are correct.

My apologies for drawing this out. I'd say more, but the crow feathers tickle a bit as they go down my throat.

I had written a long post defending my statement, but then I realized I actually still had my ticket to that DSO performance of DSCH5 in a notebook. So I went to check. It turns out my memory failed me. I was actually seated in H not A for that performance. Funny, I've probably mentioned that performance and sitting in Section A above the horns looking straight at Maestro Ashkenazy like three dozen times. Oops!

As an aside, I was studying at the FU-Berlin during the last fin-de-siecle, tickets were unreasonably cheap for students. Even Berliner Philharmoniker or DSO concert (I actually favored the latter, just because their musical director at the time, Vladimir Ashkenazy, programmed music that I love and took the orchestra through it amazingly) were cheaper than going to a movie, and chamber concerts in the Kleiner Saal were priced even better.
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post #218 of 299 Old 07-09-2014, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post
I am indeed, and you are correct.

My apologies for drawing this out. I'd say more, but the crow feathers tickle a bit as they go down my throat.
I give you major props for admitting that. You're a better person than most.
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post #219 of 299 Old 07-10-2014, 09:02 AM
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Lets talk about Multi channel content for a moment. How many Multi channel recordings are available? at what price?

It has been suggested that some the label Surround Records multichannel stuff is actually manipulated stereo. Is there a difference between ''upscaled'' stereo and ''tru'' multichannel recordings?


btw Scott started a identical poll in 2011. results were back then:
2-channel 41%
Multichannel, audience perspective 34%
Multichannel, stage perspective 15%
I've never heard a multichannel music recording 10%
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post #220 of 299 Old 07-10-2014, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
Lets talk about Multi channel content for a moment. How many Multi channel recordings are available? at what price?'
Thousands. Prices vary from reasonable (under 20$) to outrageous (many hundreds of dollars)--much like 2ch offerings.

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It has been suggested that some the label Surround Records multichannel stuff is actually manipulated stereo. Is there a difference between ''upscaled'' stereo and ''tru'' multichannel recordings?

I don't own any of their releases (though I have well over 300 MCH recordings in my collection), so I can't say for sure. I've heard that rumour as well. Will let someone else answer more fully--presumably someone who has verified this rumour one way or the other.

There is a difference between ''upscaled'' stereo and ''tru'' multichannel recordings. It's actually easy enough to check out (I've done it several times out of curiosity). Play a 2ch version of something for which you also have a discrete MCH version with something like Dolby Pro Logic II (Music) or its DTS/other equivalent. Then play the discrete MCH version. There's no predicting which one you'll like better (though the preponderance of opinions on the matter suggest discrete will almost always be chosen as better) but you'll be able to tell a difference.

It does happen, on MCH releases, that some individual tracks are "upscaled" as you called it. As far as I can tell, it is almost always because there are no multitrack originals available (discrete MCH recordings go back to the original multitrack recordings at source, with very few exceptions). I have two that I can recall off the top of my head in my collection. On the MCH release of Genesis' And Then There Were Three..., I believe the track Many Too Many (or Say It's Alright Joe, but I'm pretty sure it's Many...) was "upscaled" because they could not find the original multi tracks. It's been awhile since I've listened to it or read the booklet that explains how they did it, though. The other is Clap, from the recent Blu-ray MCH release of The Yes Album. Same issue, no multitrack originals available. Steve Wilson used a process called Penteo to create a MCH version--it works quite well. Penteo has been used a fair bit in the making of movie soundtracks--when you hear a pop song or classic rock track in a movie in 5.1, it's quite possible the track was processed by Penteo. I have some beta samples of Penteo tracks that were made available some years ago by the inventor of the process (he used to post on AVS a fair bit--haven't seen his posts in a while, but I don't hang out here as much as I used to). The sample tracks I downloaded were far closer to a discrete MCH mix than anything I've been able to coax out of DPLII or DTS:Neo6 or the like. There was some talk of releasing the tech via AVRs, but that appears to have died (sadly, as far as I'm concerned). It now finds itself used by movie studios and television studios (and, IIRC, radio stations) to generate a MCH version of whatever is being worked on that is only otherwise available in 2ch (and it works for sound in general, not just music). If you want an example of Penteo at work, watch the movie The Watchmen. There's a scene in which Jimi Hendrix' music is playing quite loudly and it is an exceptionally convincing MCH channel sound derived from a 2ch source. If ever it became available as a consumer product, I'd buy it instantly. It would make all my 2ch music recordings into MCH greatness (saving me from having to repurchase any titles in MCH in the future). But, alas, that doesn't seem likely.
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post #221 of 299 Old 07-10-2014, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ovation
It does happen, on MCH releases, that some individual tracks are "upscaled" as you called it. As far as I can tell, it is almost always because there are no multitrack originals available (discrete MCH recordings go back to the original multitrack recordings at source, with very few exceptions).
So all you need for ''tru'' MCH is Multitrack recordings?
Seems that Multitrack recording started in the early sixties, so there must be a lot of multitrack material. Nevertheless lots of that stuff is recorded with stereo release in mind so one wonders about artistic integrity.

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post #222 of 299 Old 07-10-2014, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
So all you need for ''tru'' MCH is Multitrack recordings?
Seems that Multitrack recording started in the early sixties, so there must be a lot of multitrack material. Nevertheless lots of that stuff is recorded with stereo release in mind so one wonders about artistic integrity.
I thought even 2ch is created from the multitrack recording in the mixing process...I don't think you would record with 2-ch release in mind particularly but might depend on type of music?

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post #223 of 299 Old 07-10-2014, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
So all you need for ''tru'' MCH is Multitrack recordings?
Seems that Multitrack recording started in the early sixties, so there must be a lot of multitrack material. Nevertheless lots of that stuff is recorded with stereo release in mind so one wonders about artistic integrity.
Artistic integrity? Originally, stereo (taken from the Greek and, in the vernacular, meaning three-dimensional) was a 3 track format. However, consumer audio products were not able to play back three channels, so they were down-mixed into 2 channels. Multi-track went from 4 to 8 to 16 to 24 (which I believe is the current standard in studio recordings, though I cannot say for certain). Those tracks were also down-mixed into 2 channel, into the 1970s, and beyond. In the 70s, quadrophonic releases (up to 4 discrete channels) emerged, but the necessary gear to play it back at home was cumbersome and expensive, not to mention a bit touchy, so it never really took off as format. With the advent of digital equipment, discrete MCH is easy to playback (any AVR in the past 10 years, and many from before that, is capable of playing a discrete MCH recording). Anyone with a home cinema setup with more than two speakers can get some form of MCH playback, though it really begins to shine with 4 channels or more.

The issue of "artistic integrity" doesn't enter into the bulk of multitrack recordings--the standard was 2ch because the gear limitations remained until the 90s. If an artist insists that there should be no MCH release of their work, that's their choice, but unless there are protests to the contrary, there is nothing that violates "artistic integrity" with MCH releases. Indeed, many of the artists (bands, solo acts, etc.) either participate in the making of the MCH mix or provide input and approval for them (one of the three box sets of Genesis albums released in MCH was delayed so that Peter Gabriel could review what had been done and give his approval--the others in the band were already on board--so one can hardly say "artistic integrity" is not respected). Conceptually, there is no difference between a re-release of music in MCH or in a remix of 2ch. Each of them is a remix of the original multi tracks and neither provides the same mix as the original. So far, I've heard people express a preference for the original (or for the remix), but not much about "violating artistic integrity" for offering different mixes (2ch or MCH). Besides, just about all MCH releases also include a 2ch version (the Blu-ray of The Yes Album offers a number of options--new 2ch mix, a MCH mix, the original 2ch mix, a "needle-drop" 24/96 capture of a UK vinyl pressing that has not been otherwise processed or EQ'd--plenty of choices for everybody).

If MCH releases of material that was initially released in 2ch was supplanting the original, rendering it unobtainable going forward, then complaints about "artistic integrity" might have some resonance and relevance. However, MCH releases supplement, rather than replace, originals--and I can see no downside to that whatsoever.
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post #224 of 299 Old 07-10-2014, 01:19 PM
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looking at the poll results is interesting. It was effectively even until a couple days ago.



My honest opinion, most people voting don't listen to much music at all other than on an Ipod.

There is simply not enough music available in multi channel to warrant these results.

My guess, virtually everyone with a multi movie systems voted multi just because they have it.

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #225 of 299 Old 07-10-2014, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljr View Post
that;s a very egotistical claim
Nothing egotistical about this statement to me. Its just an opinion, and many, including me, agree with it.
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post #226 of 299 Old 07-10-2014, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by gbaby View Post
Nothing egotistical about this statement to me. Its just an opinion, and many, including me, agree with it.
of course it is egotistical

it implies that his preferences are superior to anyone with differing prefreances

if that's not egotistical, i don't know what is

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #227 of 299 Old 07-10-2014, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljr View Post
looking at the poll results is interesting. It was effectively even until a couple days ago.



My honest opinion, most people voting don't listen to much music at all other than on an Ipod.

There is simply not enough music available in multi channel to warrant these results.

My guess, virtually everyone with a multi movie systems voted multi just because they have it.
The poll is asking which you prefer, not which you spend more time listening to or which you own more of. If there was only one MCH album in existence and that one album was "Wish you were here", by Pink Floyd then I would still vote for multichannel. If you enjoy MCH music, the lack of content doesn't somehow make it worse. It just makes you wish there was more of it.
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post #228 of 299 Old 07-10-2014, 01:45 PM
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I don't have a ton of multichannel, so by default I'd have to say 2-channel. But I'm starting to build up my collection (slowly). Recently got Beck's Sea Change Blu-Ray Audio, and it's fantastic. Great use of the additional channels...not gimicky.

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post #229 of 299 Old 07-10-2014, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljr View Post
looking at the poll results is interesting. It was effectively even until a couple days ago.



My honest opinion, most people voting don't listen to much music at all other than on an Ipod.

There is simply not enough music available in multi channel to warrant these results.

My guess, virtually everyone with a multi movie systems voted multi just because they have it.
Around here? Maybe most people in general use a digital player like an ipod or their phone, but this is a forum (not talking about this particular sub-forum) dedicated to gear for the most part and most of us have multich setups, if not multiple multich setups (I have three, one dedicated to music altho based on ipod only as the hdmi board fried, this one is only 3.1). I didn't take the poll to take into consideration how much multich music is available or owned, just a preference as to what I'd like in terms of format.

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post #230 of 299 Old 07-10-2014, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gecko85 View Post
I don't have a ton of multichannel, so by default I'd have to say 2-channel. But I'm starting to build up my collection (slowly). Recently got Beck's Sea Change Blu-Ray Audio, and it's fantastic. Great use of the additional channels...not gimicky.
Again, how much you own has nothing to do with it. If you owned zero MCH recordings but had heard a MCH album somewhere and you preferred that MCH version over the stereo version and wished that every song made had a MCH version then you should be voting for MCH. On the other hand, even if you owned every MCH album ever created, that does not necessarily mean that you have to vote for MCH, either. You can still prefer stereo.

Think of it like this...If somebody offered you both MCH and stereo and forced you to choose one or the other, which would you choose? That should be your answer to the poll question.
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post #231 of 299 Old 07-10-2014, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
Around here? Maybe most people in general use a digital player like an ipod or their phone, but this is a forum (not talking about this particular sub-forum) dedicated to gear for the most part and most of us have multich setups, if not multiple multich setups (I have three, one dedicated to music altho based on ipod only as the hdmi board fried, this one is only 3.1). I didn't take the poll to take into consideration how much multich music is available or owned, just a preference as to what I'd like in terms of format.
you are right,

my post is in no way judgmental just an opinion based on my understanding of human nature

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #232 of 299 Old 07-10-2014, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljr View Post
of course it is egotistical

it implies that his preferences are superior to anyone with differing prefreances

if that's not egotistical, i don't know what is
Egotistical or not, I can't remember anyone, on hearing one of my multi-ch setups, let alone knowing the format or the source, say that's nice but can you just make it 2ch now.....no, there was one guy who came over to demo my speakers and since he was going 2-ch to start wanted to hear things that way. Personally I do often listen to 2 ch in 2 ch but depends on the music and mood etc but will usually start any demo with the full setup....however, since this thread I've found myself messing around more with various multich formats in my avr for the 2 ch sources.

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post #233 of 299 Old 07-10-2014, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
Egotistical or not, I can't remember anyone, on hearing one of my multi-ch setups, let alone knowing the format or the source, say that's nice but can you just make it 2ch now.....no, there was one guy who came over to demo my speakers and since he was going 2-ch to start wanted to hear things that way. Personally I do often listen to 2 ch in 2 ch but depends on the music and mood etc but will usually start any demo with the full setup....however, since this thread I've found myself messing around more with various multich formats in my avr for the 2 ch sources.
I always turn up the volume of my two channel to demo for people.

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #234 of 299 Old 07-10-2014, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by eljr View Post
I always turn up the volume of my two channel to demo for people.
Gotta keep in mind most of us in here are freaks for having the gear we have, whether thats 2ch or multich. Most people I know could care less one way or the other about good audio gear at all.

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post #235 of 299 Old 07-10-2014, 02:28 PM
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Not to derail this thread, but I'm looking for a good set of surround sound headphones for late night/early morning movie, TV show, and music listening. If you have any experience with surround sound headphones or are interested in getting a pair yourself, please check out the discussion in the following thread...

What are the best wireless surround sound headphones for movies and music?

Thanks
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post #236 of 299 Old 07-10-2014, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd
I thought even 2ch is created from the multitrack recording in the mixing process...I don't think you would record with 2-ch release in mind particularly but might depend on type of music?
You are maybe right about that, seems that up until now artists made rarely such decisions. Since MCH artists have become more aware of the options they have in that regard, which does not mean that make use of those options.

Most musicians are in there for the music, they want the music to sound on a record the way they intended. Seems to me that they care less about 2ch, MCH etc..(only exception would be musicians that are also tech-geeks)
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Originally Posted by Ovation
(the blu-ray of The Yes Album offers a number of options--new 2ch mix, a MCH mix, the Original 2ch mix, a ''needle-drop'' 24/96 capture of a UK vinyl pressing that has not been otherwise processed or EQ'd--plenty of choices for everybody).
The Yes Album is a early seventies album (which stood the test of time AFAIK). Seems to me that the main reason why there are all these options might be that there are several tech-freaks in the band (or it might be even a management decision). I am not shure if it is a musical choice. It is a bit akward imo because The Yes Album is soo seventies and the musicians were soo seventies, it is soo stereo and they still are somehow(e) stuck in the seventies (they shouldn't even be here ), so it is a bit akward seeing YES doing stuff like that.
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post #237 of 299 Old 07-10-2014, 04:59 PM
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You are maybe right about that, seems that up until now artists made rarely such decisions. Since MCH artists have become more aware of the options they have in that regard, which does not mean that make use of those options.

Most musicians are in there for the music, they want the music to sound on a record the way they intended. Seems to me that they care less about 2ch, MCH etc..(only exception would be musicians that are also tech-geeks)

The Yes Album is a early seventies album (which stood the test of time AFAIK). Seems to me that the main reason why there are all these options might be that there are several tech-freaks in the band (or it might be even a management decision). I am not shure if it is a musical choice. It is a bit akward imo because The Yes Album is soo seventies and the musicians were soo seventies, it is soo stereo and they still are somehow(e) stuck in the seventies (they shouldn't even be here ), so it is a bit akward seeing YES doing stuff like that.
I doubt the artists make a lot of technical decisions in general but rather trust their producer and engineer(s) to produce the recording and even sound for a given venue. A long time ago I used to do some logistics work for some major artists and that was my general impression the few times I was around a recording session or setup of gear for a performance. One notable exception was Frank Zappa...he was very involved about every aspect of the performance and recording. Remember a Rod Stewart session where it seemed the producer and engineer were seemingly steering everything....back then I never did ask much in the way of questions about the process, though (wish I could have a do-over on that now!)....was just glad to be hanging around!

Generally I think many people with home reproduction gear put too much credit in the artists' hands as to how their recorded product sounds to the finer details (there's people for that!), but rather more concerned with their performance....at least that's my impression again.

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post #238 of 299 Old 07-10-2014, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Ovation View Post

There is a difference between ''upscaled'' stereo and ''tru'' multichannel recordings. It's actually easy enough to check out (I've done it several times out of curiosity). Play a 2ch version of something for which you also have a discrete MCH version with something like Dolby Pro Logic II (Music) or its DTS/other equivalent. Then play the discrete MCH version. There's no predicting which one you'll like better (though the preponderance of opinions on the matter suggest discrete will almost always be chosen as better) but you'll be able to tell a difference.
You're making it sounds like recordings intended for stereo are fed into an algorithm that create a MCH.

While I don't that happens, in my experience, most of the time the multichannel tracks are just remixed for 5.0.

Sometimes the mixes are quite good, other times all they really do is create a 3-channel version.
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post #239 of 299 Old 07-10-2014, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

Generally I think many people with home reproduction gear put too much credit in the artists' hands as to how their recorded product sounds to the finer details (there's people for that!), but rather more concerned with their performance....at least that's my impression again.
And there's nothing wrong with that -- artists have other things to do, like performing, rather than sitting in an editing studio.

It seems like most make notes for the producer and editor during playback at the session about how they want certain parts to sound, and then sign-off on a near final recording.
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post #240 of 299 Old 07-10-2014, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by von Levi View Post
You're making it sounds like recordings intended for stereo are fed into an algorithm that create a MCH.

While I don't that happens, in my experience, most of the time the multichannel tracks are just remixed for 5.0.

Sometimes the mixes are quite good, other times all they really do is create a 3-channel version.
A discrete MCH release is mixed into 3.0, 4.0, 4.1, 5.0, 5.1 or something else--no algorithm. However, he was asking if there's a difference between a discrete MCH mix and a 2ch mix sent through an algorithm. I was explaining how to hear the differences between a discrete MCH mix and generated by an algorithm.
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