Why Isn't Multichannel Music More Popular? - Page 6 - AVS Forum
View Poll Results: Why Isn't Multichannel Music More Popular?
Most people prefer 2-channel music 27 8.54%
Most people have never heard multichannel music 138 43.67%
Most people play music in the background 71 22.47%
Most people listen to music on headphones 32 10.13%
Other 48 15.19%
Voters: 316. You may not vote on this poll

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post #151 of 187 Old 08-15-2014, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by djp2k7 View Post
Well I guess I am going to have to buy a good DVD audio disc and try it out. Any recommendations?
Here's a bluray audio disc I'm a fan of (Steven Wilson):

http://www.amazon.com/Raven-Refused-...+wilson+bluray

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post #152 of 187 Old 08-16-2014, 07:05 AM
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Well I guess I am going to have to buy a good DVD audio disc and try it out. Any recommendations? I feel like when I'm at a concert I'm not listening to surround sound. I'm listening to stereo. So that's how I want to hear music at home; just like it would sound live. Even with home theater I've always thought it somewhat gimmicky. My brain knows that there isn't a real helicopter flying around behind me when watching a movie. Sometimes I find surround sound distracting. I have a 5.1 theater in my basement but I also have a 2 channel setup upstairs for tv and music. And the occasional DVR movie. And I haven't once thought "damn I wish I had surround sound up here too." But don't get me wrong...when I rent a blu ray I always watch it on the theater setup downstairs!
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post #153 of 187 Old 08-16-2014, 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Philnick View Post
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Is it too much to ask for folks to not always be too busy to sit and listen to a great piece of music?
I agree, slow down for a few moments & enjoy some fine music. My 25 y/o daughter can't do it when I ask her, she is too busy. Different generations, different preferences, nothing wrong with that!

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post #154 of 187 Old 08-16-2014, 11:44 AM
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I agree, slow down for a few moments & enjoy some fine music. My 25 y/o daughter can't do it when I ask her, she is too busy. Different generations, different preferences, nothing wrong with that!
I blame it on school to be honest. I'm 24 and not in college and I actually do have time to slow down and enjoy things more. My sister though is 26 and in grad school and was one of those "straight A students" in high school and yet she's actually struggling quite a bit with grad school, particularly with the actual workload and getting things done (and it's not because of goofing off, she actually has a pretty minimal social life).

I think she regularly gets like 4-6 hours of sleep a night compared to my 8-11 hours. It's bad enough that whenever she comes home for a week or two everything feels chaotic and like things are going 100mph.

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post #155 of 187 Old 08-16-2014, 01:25 PM
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^ +1
Very intuitive response! She just finished Grad School with a 4.0. Started her new job this week with a TESL position, she pulls kids out classes and helps (teaches) them English. Music through her ear buds is a major part of her multi tasking. She has so much going on, as you said look at your & your sisters' position, simply not much time to sit back and just listen to music. Besides, so much else to do with your precious time. I think you nailed it!

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post #156 of 187 Old 08-17-2014, 03:41 PM
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Convenience is another factor. People seem happier these days to have access to music for a subscription so they can listen to whatever they want on whatever device is closest. Multichannel is really the opposite of convenience in its current state (as is HD audio - topic for later).

Can sympathise with the busy lifestyle and convenience arguments and on most days of the week I do the same... but sitting down for a session of multichannel music listening is totally worth it. Bjork's multichannel work is probably my favourite example of immersive audio.
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post #157 of 187 Old 08-19-2014, 03:04 AM
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Originally Posted by NintendoManiac64 View Post
Um, you did listen to the sound clips I posted above, right?

Again, for headphones, you only need two audio channels for true surround sound. Last time I checked we only have two ears!

Your ears are capable of processing much more than sensing what comes out of two speakers. Have you figured out why you can tell which direction a sound comes from? In 6 channel sound the singer can be in the center and the guitar in the left, some drums in the rear right, a base violin, can be in mixed into the rear left and the front left. With the proper equipment, you actually sound like your in the middle of the room of guys playing instruments around you in all directions.
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post #158 of 187 Old 08-19-2014, 06:06 AM
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Originally Posted by robertkjr3d View Post
With the proper equipment, you actually sound like your in the middle of the room of guys playing instruments around you in all directions.
Which is one reason many folks reject surround sound music. If the purpose is to more accurately recreate a live concert, there would be zero instruments behind you. Gimmicky recordings were one of the reasons for the death of the original quad surround.

In the very early days of stereo, the gimmicky trick was called the "ping pong"" effect with voices and instruments bouncing between the left and right speakers. Fortunately, that did not last forever.

And just as fortunately, there are some great surround recordings that do attempt to place the listener in the venue (and not on the stage with the perfromers).

I am not suggesting the there cannot be some fun recordings where sounds that would not normally be behind you show up, but for me, at least, that gets real old, real fast. But YMMV.
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post #159 of 187 Old 08-19-2014, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Which is one reason many folks reject surround sound music. If the purpose is to more accurately recreate a live concert, there would be zero instruments behind you. Gimmicky recordings were one of the reasons for the death of the original quad surround.

In the very early days of stereo, the gimmicky trick was called the "ping pong"" effect with voices and instruments bouncing between the left and right speakers. Fortunately, that did not last forever.

And just as fortunately, there are some great surround recordings that do attempt to place the listener in the venue (and not on the stage with the perfromers).

I am not suggesting the there cannot be some fun recordings where sounds that would not normally be behind you show up, but for me, at least, that gets real old, real fast. But YMMV.
Your missing the point. This is not for the effect of being at a concert. This for an entirely different surreal experience. Recorded music is rarely recorded like concert music anyway, if that is your point. Unless your listening to music marked 'Live Recording'. On MCH: If done correctly, we get chills and when you close your eyes you can get the effect and fooled for the moment that the players are actually in the room. You can have a moment in time and space that is all your own. Like that picture above with the atom circling the head.

I claim that many cannot process those sensations anymore because of ear-damage, or sheer lack of patience because of the times.
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post #160 of 187 Old 08-19-2014, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by robertkjr3d View Post
Your ears are capable of processing much more than sensing what comes out of two speakers. Have you figured out why you can tell which direction a sound comes from? In 6 channel sound the singer can be in the center and the guitar in the left, some drums in the rear right, a base violin, can be in mixed into the rear left and the front left. With the proper equipment, you actually sound like your in the middle of the room of guys playing instruments around you in all directions.
...did you listen to the sound clips? Everything you describe is possible with 2-channel binaural sound via headphones...
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post #161 of 187 Old 08-19-2014, 12:29 PM
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...did you listen to the sound clips? Everything you describe is possible with 2-channel binaural sound via headphones...
Ok Yes I listened to the 1st clip. I hope I made your day partly. I know you have been asking folks a few times. I refuse to listen to the 2nd one, I won't do the torture thing. They have always been able to do some interesting tweaks with 2-channel sound, more-so was this done back I would say in the 70s-85 era. However this does not compare to a discreetly recorded Blu-ray, in which sounds or Phaser blasts will come from different directions and cause you or your pet to turn their head because they are faked out for a split second, that something is in the room other than the people watching the movie. I would cite: 'Star Trek: Insurrection' as one of my best Blu-Rays for 6-channel sound... When they discover the Holo-ship under water and they bring it up. All of a sudden there are these phaser blasts that come from the rear channels to the front and scare you out of your wits if your not prepared. All heads watching are sure to turn!
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post #162 of 187 Old 08-19-2014, 12:32 PM
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So are you telling me that you were not able to follow the matchbox sounds around your head and up and down the left & right sides?

Because if you were not able to do so, then something is wrong with your audio setup for 2-channel sound.
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post #163 of 187 Old 08-19-2014, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by robertkjr3d View Post
Your missing the point. This is not for the effect of being at a concert. This for an entirely different surreal experience. Recorded music is rarely recorded like concert music anyway, if that is your point. Unless your listening to music marked 'Live Recording'. On MCH: If done correctly, we get chills and when you close your eyes you can get the effect and fooled for the moment that the players are actually in the room. You can have a moment in time and space that is all your own.
Studio recordings are already surreal and "not concerts" so why shoehorn them into being concerts? Just to turn them into a familiar paradigm?

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Like that picture above with the atom circling the head.
Wait, that's Timothy Learly, isn't it?
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post #164 of 187 Old 08-19-2014, 02:06 PM
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So are you telling me that you were not able to follow the matchbox sounds around your head and up and down the left & right sides?

Because if you were not able to do so, then something is wrong with your audio setup for 2-channel sound.
Perhaps it was because I didn't actually watch the video while I listened. I am at work...hehe I do have some pretty good headphones. I am anti-earbuds..lol. But I did get the partial effect of it moving around, but not quite the 3D effect you speak of. Are you saying we should all turn to Binaural recording and forget multi-channel. That discreet is not better? I find this notion tragic. But I understand it.
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post #165 of 187 Old 08-19-2014, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by robertkjr3d View Post
Perhaps it was because I didn't actually watch the video while I listened
No, that doesn't make a difference because the image of the video is just a still image or similar.

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But I did get the partial effect of it moving around, but not quite the 3D effect you speak of.
That's very strange, getting that 3D effect is the whole point of binaural.

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Are you saying we should all turn to Binaural recording and forget multi-channel. That discreet is not better? I find this notion tragic. But I understand it.
It more that I feel, due to the fact that binaural audio is a thing, and that the majority of music is listened on headphones, discrete multi-channel audio would not be all that useful (unless it was done like how video games do sound effects ala Dolby Atmos).
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post #166 of 187 Old 08-20-2014, 06:03 AM
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Well, you must consider - how many people that listen to music on big multi-channel home theater systems are computer-savvy enough to acquire music purely from the internet, especially from anywhere other than itunes or Amazon? (both services have monetary interest in headphone-based music playback)

Currently the only hardware format capable of multi-channel lossless audio is Blu-ray, and how many Pure Blu-ray audio discs are there? Not only that, how many computers are there with Blu-ray drives?

I would be very surprised if the answer to the above questions was anything other than "not that many".


Also consider that it's becoming increasingly common for computers to not even have a built-in disc drive (do USB Blu-ray drives even exist? And a desktop drive over eSATAp would pull too much power...)

EDIT: Apparently USB Blu-ray drives do exist, but they're still decently expensive starting at around 50 bucks.
Nitendo - My computer is a fully running HTPC running Multichannel audio--- I also record TV in multi-channel coming from Comcast with a Cablecard. Yes I also have a Blu-ray drive, which the quality is noticeably better. I did have Netflix streaming for a while, and I stick to the Blu-ray's with their service. The internet-streaming was indeed --- only 2-channel. Apparently, you can get the Roku, or a standard Blu-ray player that could pick up HD-Audio streaming from them, but that is an entirely separate thread. I did purchase the Blu-ray drive for my desktop machine separately as a USB device.

In general: Nintendo... Aren't you being a bit Negative? I agree that the endeavor is doomed anyway. The market is headed for people watching movies on these little phones, and listening to music with cheap little ear-buds.
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post #167 of 187 Old 08-20-2014, 06:47 AM
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Originally Posted by robertkjr3d View Post
Nitendo - My computer is a fully running HTPC running Multichannel audio--- I also record TV in multi-channel coming from Comcast with a Cablecard. Yes I also have a Blu-ray drive, which the quality is noticeably better. I did have Netflix streaming for a while, and I stick to the Blu-ray's with their service. The internet-streaming was indeed --- only 2-channel. Apparently, you can get the Roku, or a standard Blu-ray player that could pick up HD-Audio streaming from them, but that is an entirely separate thread. I did purchase the Blu-ray drive for my desktop machine separately as a USB device.

In general: Nintendo... Aren't you being a bit Negative? I agree that the endeavor is doomed anyway. The market is headed for people watching movies on these little phones, and listening to music with cheap little ear-buds.
I think there will continue to be diversity in people's listening habits including where, when and on what platform. I think that the different formats/qualities will be price differentiated. You can see that now for digital downloads WRT bit depth/sampling rate. And certainly remastered 2-ch SACDs cost a lot more than the best Redbook of a title.

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post #168 of 187 Old 08-20-2014, 10:01 AM
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2-Ch effects

The 2-ch effects you Nintendo speak of, sound very similar to the days prior to at home DTS and 5.1 or better sound systems. Recall even a VHS was marked 'Dolby Stereo' and your deck system was to interpret the Center and surround channels by the Dolby onboard software chip in your receiver.

The same happens when a 2-Channel piece of music is played and you have the 'Speaker Fill' switch turned on. The software will move the fill the sound into the Center,Sub, and Rear Channels based on what it decides... It does a pretty good job.
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post #169 of 187 Old 08-20-2014, 10:51 AM
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Just wanted to mention, that my work machine is playing on my pandora - headphones: Daft Punk: Tron... and just before that Ed Alleyne-Johnson-Orange-Ultraviolet (that sounds kinda bionaural) - But you must hear the music and movie of Tron with a real good DTS system, it's a whole different experience. The headphones only do it half the justice.
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post #170 of 187 Old 08-20-2014, 11:37 AM
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Even 3-way in ear monitors that reach to 20Hz do not have the realism of a good subwoofer system slamming your chest.

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post #171 of 187 Old 08-20-2014, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post
Even 3-way in ear monitors that reach to 20Hz do not have the realism of a good subwoofer system slamming your chest.
Personally I don't like the feeling of the"full body impact" of speaker bass, but I do like the only-in-ear impact of bass over IEMs.
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post #172 of 187 Old 08-20-2014, 01:34 PM
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post #173 of 187 Old 08-21-2014, 07:43 PM
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Good article in TAS this month about "The attention span gap". Directly relates to this thread.

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post #174 of 187 Old 08-22-2014, 05:26 AM
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Personally I don't like the feeling of the"full body impact" of speaker bass, but I do like the only-in-ear impact of bass over IEMs.
It scares you? hehe. I think whatever we say as multichannel sound system enthusiasts. Nintendo will always have something opposite to say. If i had my "money" druthers... I would add a couple of those subs that don't produce sound, but actually just hit/kick under your seats. That would be so cool!
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post #175 of 187 Old 08-22-2014, 07:22 AM
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^^^

I have a second/main row platform that with a fortuitous resonance from 15Hz to 25Hz, entirely passive. It is rare that any music excites that resonance, but crikeys, a whole lotta LFE does. I miss that when I visit other enthusiasts.

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It scares you? hehe.
No, fear has nothing to do with it. I find full-body bass at louder close-distance levels to be moderately jarring and/or uncomfortable. Works great for theatrical impact in movies, but it prevents a good chunk of musical enjoyment for me.

Now to clarify, I'm perfectly OK with full-body bass impact in music at lower "body shaking" levels.


I believe it has something to higher physical sensitivity. For reference, I knew of a deaf listener of music that wasn't found of bass because it felt unnatural, and I also find any vertical decent on roller coasters to be very uncomfortable as well.


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just hit/kick under your seats. That would be so cool!
I suggested this very same thing to my father yesterday evening since we had installed a center speaker the night before.

Protip: if you have any stereo computer speakers with an amplifier built into one of the speakers, you can totally use the speaker without the built-in amp by itself as a center-channel speaker.
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post #177 of 187 Old 08-22-2014, 01:35 PM
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Protip: if you have any stereo computer speakers with an amplifier built into one of the speakers, you can totally use the speaker without the built-in amp by itself as a center-channel speaker.
Protip? Gimme a break. I don't want to hear any system where a stereo computer speaker, with or without it's amp, is used as a center channel. Even worse, where that speaker is a good match for the L&R speakers.

In fact, I propose to add "Because computer speakers are used as CC speakers" to the poll "Why Isn't Multichannel Music More Popular?"

Jeff

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Protip? Gimme a break.
"Protip" is an old internet phrase, it comes from the following quote in a magazine referring to the game Doom: "Protip: To defeat the Cyberdemon, shoot at it until it dies.".

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I don't want to hear any system where a stereo computer speaker, with or without it's amp, is used as a center channel.
The point was that it's technologically possible, that obviously doesn't mean that everyone should do it.

Quality-wise, I personally used one of those large computer speakers that came with a CRT monitor. Let me put it this way, the front of the speaker measures 26.5cm x 6.5cm while the depth is 8cm to 17cm (it's tapered)

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Even worse, where that speaker is a good match for L&R speakers.
Due to the size of the L&R speakers and the fact that the TV is in an entertainment center, there isn't any physical way to fit a comparably-sized speaker.

Also the L&R speakers are from the 80s, so there'd be no way to match the speakers anyway.


EDIT: At the very least I was able to use the receiver's individual speaker volume-balance setting to balance out the precieved volume, and I can probable use the frequency crossover function to prevent any possibly reduced bass response.

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post #179 of 187 Old 08-22-2014, 01:57 PM
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No, fear has nothing to do with it. I find full-body bass at louder close-distance levels to be moderately jarring and/or uncomfortable. Works great for theatrical impact in movies, but it prevents a good chunk of musical enjoyment for me.

Now to clarify, I'm perfectly OK with full-body bass impact in music at lower "body shaking" levels.
Actually theater sound is exactly what we are achieving... Except usually higher quality than the local theater these days. I find the local theater doesn't keep up with their sounds systems like they did in the bit older days. For me it is the higher pitches that my ears cannot take. Ex: A rock-concert or a wedding where the volume is too loud. The tweeters will just wreak havoc on my ears, and I use 'ear plugs'. It wreaks havoc on everybody else's ears too, but most just don't realize it anymore.... It's the ear damage over the years.

Body-Shaking - is what the sub-woofer is generally for, and can't be achieved on the headphones. In DTS sound, the music/movie is specifically encoded to put the right sounds to the Sub speaker.
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post #180 of 187 Old 08-22-2014, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertkjr3d View Post
Actually theater sound is exactly what we are achieving..
Well sure for home-theater, but this thread is about music, no?
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