Which Elements of UHD are Most important for Improving Image Quality? - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
View Poll Results: Which Elements of UHD are Most important for Improving Image Quality?
Higher pixel count 97 20.77%
Higher dynamic range 297 63.60%
Wider color gamut 247 52.89%
Higher frame rate 90 19.27%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 467. You may not vote on this poll

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post #61 of 112 Old 04-26-2015, 09:29 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barrelbelly View Post
I voted HDR. But rank them in this order of importance for myself:
  1. HDR
  2. WCG
  3. HFR
  4. UHD
They are all important when applied together properly IMO.
Ditto .
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post #62 of 112 Old 04-26-2015, 09:31 AM
 
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Originally Posted by avdoc View Post
Totally agree, blur is the most distracting. It takes me right out of the movie. Color then uhd then hdr.
good point especially on the larger sets .
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post #63 of 112 Old 04-26-2015, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by RLBURNSIDE View Post
Disagree, TVs being ultra wide screen, have perfect blacks, infinite contrast, perfect out of the box greyscale calibration, being flat or curved, large or not, are all independent parameters of what should belong in the signal or video source material.

Anyway, the UHD standard is pretty much set now, isn't it? We're getting all these things, so it's all good. You can also get perfect black HDR / UHD tvs later on this year if you have the money, buy an OLED. But no standard should force the industry to enforce a given display technology, which might be superior in some ways but inferior in others (price?). I'd rather see UHD succeed and bring costs down for these emerging technologies even if it means accepting one more round of LCD's dominance in the home. So what? As long as you have a choice to spend money for a better product, that's all you need. And it's a self-correcting problem anyway, because over time technology improves across the board, prices go down, contrast and dynamic range and bit depth go up, up, up, and that's just progress being made. We don't need to have every TV support rec 2020 and 4000 nits with infinite contrast and zero motion blur, right away, to start benefitting from UHD Bluray's improved pixel quality.

Let's let displays play catch up to the video signal for a while. They already are anyway. But a sub-2k 1080p OLED at Best Buy is already pretty darn close to being reference at reproducing what rec.709 can provide. So it's time to kick it up a notch or two on the content side.
Actually, most of the better displays are more capable than any mainstream consumer source available to feed them.

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Originally Posted by jrob23 View Post
didn't Panasonic and Samsung equal Kuros though? I know it's almost hipster like to keep talking about how great Kuros are and the calibrators perpetuate that because let's be honest, they made so much money off them. So I am not a) buying that Kuros really measure that low or the equipment could read that accurately b) the 2014 Plasmas didn't beat them. Regardless, the difference is not perceivable to the human eye. Factor in size, color, 3d, etc and the Kuros were beat soundly.
I have a VT60 and the last generation of Kuro plasmas still produce a better 2D picture owing to improved contrast-- they are both blacker and brighter and color saturation is still the best of anything I've seen outside of OLED.

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post #64 of 112 Old 04-26-2015, 11:20 AM
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High definition means nothing if it's all blurry. HFR for me, easily.
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post #65 of 112 Old 04-26-2015, 11:54 AM
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i haven't seen UHD, so my vote may be a bit misguided. that being said, there's only been one thing i've ever complained about with current HD sources, and that's poor motion.

pixels would be good for the projector, maybe, but probably not the most obvious upgrade. increased color falls in the same boat, i'm sure once i see it i'll appreciate it, but it's not like it disrupts my enjoyment now anyway. HDR is actually something i'm more likely to hate than like, so i'm just hoping it's not very noticeable, or leads to to displays that have better than the 1000:1 CR we see from most on the market now.

so there it is, increase frame rate is what i'm most interested in. it is imo, the 'weak spot' of the current standard. there is simply no way to make 24fps or even 30fps look 'real'. FI is terrible, and completely unwatchable to me. and the best plasma's only show the weakness of the source, so this is where i cast my vote. 1080/60p would be a huge improvement to me. the other stuff is just bonus

1.HFR
2.color
3.pixels
4.HDR(really have no interest in this at all)

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post #66 of 112 Old 04-26-2015, 12:45 PM
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Soctt,
I think there is a problem in the poll display with total percentage going over 100%. My guess is the denominator is a fixed number vice increasing with each vote.
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post #67 of 112 Old 04-26-2015, 05:12 PM
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The error is huge thing summing to about 155%, something that needs investigation by the AV polling commission.
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post #68 of 112 Old 04-26-2015, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cvn74n2 View Post
Soctt,
I think there is a problem in the poll display with total percentage going over 100%. My guess is the denominator is a fixed number vice increasing with each vote.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
The error is huge thing summing to about 155%, something that needs investigation by the AV polling commission.
No, it just takes a little common sense. Being a multiple choice poll the percentages represent what percentage of those who voted included that option in their vote. It is totally useless to add those percentages together as you two seem to have done.


PS: What the heck does:
Quote:
My guess is the denominator is a fixed number vice increasing with each vote.
mean?

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post #69 of 112 Old 04-26-2015, 06:53 PM
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My take:
1. HDR
2. WCG

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post #70 of 112 Old 04-26-2015, 07:42 PM
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here it is:
  1. HDR
  2. WCG
  3. UHD
  4. HFR

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post #71 of 112 Old 04-26-2015, 08:10 PM
 
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The poll is flawed? ...We can vote for one, two, three, and/or all four. ...Seems fine to me. ...The order? ...Which order?
If you vote for one there is no order, if you vote for all four that means all four are important, and in no specific order. Am I correct in my theoretical/logical deduction/interpretation/scientific analysis?

When Scott created this poll he was asking which one of the four we consider most important. ...Very simple, no discontinuity no ambiguity no nothing perplex here.
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Last edited by NorthSky; 04-27-2015 at 11:44 AM. Reason: small typo ("flawed" - adj., and not "flaw" - n.)
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post #72 of 112 Old 04-27-2015, 12:36 AM
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I'm positively surprised how many AVS members consider HFR an important feature and I agree.

I'm using a FullHD DLP projector with PureMotion blur reduction and judder removal and an HD Ready DLP projector (1280 x 720) for video games (XBox 360) and HDTV (most live broadcasts in Germany limited to 720p anyway),

Curiously, even on my 1.78:1 100" screen, I notice less the amount of missing pixels (opposite to FullHD) but rather find the motion blur and judder distracting.

PureMotion has become one of these things, I couldn't miss anymore. Before I jump to 4K there has to be satisfying motion blur reduction, one way (frame interpolation) or the other (native HFR program content).

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post #73 of 112 Old 04-27-2015, 01:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post

When Scott created this poll he was asking which one of the four we consider most important. ...Very simple, no discontinuity no ambiguity no nothing perplex here.

That would be true if the ballot only allowed choosing one. But Scott then changed the poll to allow one to vote for up to four of the four candidates.. But it doesn't allow ranking the order. Many here have chosen to rank the importance to them.


OK. I will bite. The most important to me is the resolution increase. I have a big screen and putting 8 million plus pixels on it results in a more realistic image than putting just 2 million plus pixels on it.This applies to all source resolutions with a big plus when sources shot in 4K or higher and mastered in 4K become widely available and for wide subject content. those with smallish displays, the resolution should not be of much importance,


Next should be a wider color gamut than rec 709. 4K bluray will have a wider gamut and commercial digital movies are in a wider gamut, P3. better yellows, reds, greens will be apparent to most and will increase the realism.


HDR will likely be unimportant because HDR content won't be widely available. Film makers create content with dynamic rage limitation in effect. One can't covert content shot with the dynamic range limitation of film in mind.

HDR is merely a personal choice. Keep the cinematic effect or increase the realism by upping the frame rate. Upping the frame rate will make fake look more fake. The solution is variable frame rates.

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post #74 of 112 Old 04-27-2015, 06:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
The poll is flaw? ...We can vote for one, two, three, and/or all four. ...Seems fine to me. ...The order? ...Which order?
If you vote for one there is no order, if you vote for all four that means all four are important, and in no specific order. Am I correct in my theoretical/logical deduction/interpretation/scientific analysis?

When Scott created this poll he was asking which one of the four we consider most important. ...Very simple, no discontinuity no ambiguity no nothing perplex here.
Fully agree, this poll is flawed, if you vote for 4 in order there is no way to order your choice so each vote gets equal weight. Also can't believe HFR is running 4th, the majority of people commenting here seem to put it at No.1

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post #75 of 112 Old 04-27-2015, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Wurlitzer-1015 View Post
Fully agree, this poll is flawed, if you vote for 4 in order there is no way to order your choice so each vote gets equal weight. Also can't believe HFR is running 4th, the majority of people commenting here seem to put it at No.1
The poll isn't flawed. The idea is that you vote only for the element that you think is most important. The only reason for picking multiple elements is if you think there are two or more that are equally important.

I understand that you would like to be able to rank them in terms of importance, but that's not possible with a single poll unless the number of choices is increased to include every possible combination of options in every possible order...

1) HDR>WCG>HFR>4K
2) WCG>HDR>HFR>4K
3) HFR>HDR>WCG>4K
...
17) HDR=WCG>HFR>4K
18) HDR=WCG>4K>HFR
19) HFR>HDR=WCG>4K
20) HFR>4K>HDR=WCG
21) 4K>HDR=WCG>HFR
22) 4K>HFR>HDR=WCG
...
41) HDR=WCG=HFR>4K
42) 4K>HDR=WCG=HFR
43) HDR=WCG=4K>HFR
44) HFR>HDR=WCG=4K
45) HDR=HFR=4K>WCG
46) WCG>HDR=HFR=4K
47) WCG=HFR=4K>HDR
48) HDR>WCG=HFR=4K
49) HDR=WCG=HFR=4K

As you can see, a single poll is not the most efficient way to determine the exact order of importance. And even if we did use such a poll, one would have to question whether or not we should have been able to assign a weight to the importance of each, as opposed to simply assigning an order.

If you really want to know the order of importance of each element, you would ask everybody to rate each element on a scale from 1-10 and then tabulate the results. But, I don't think that Scott wanted to set up a spreadsheet to handle the results.
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post #76 of 112 Old 04-27-2015, 11:47 AM
 
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Thumbs up Bravo!

Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyoAJB View Post
The poll isn't flawed. The idea is that you vote only for the element that you think is most important.
The only reason for picking multiple elements is if you think there are two or more that are equally important.
Exactly ^ that.
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post #77 of 112 Old 04-27-2015, 12:06 PM
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OK. The poll is not flawed, but the poll constructer and every one else in the world including myself is flawed.


Some more so than others.
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post #78 of 112 Old 04-27-2015, 12:11 PM
 
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Nobody is flawed; we are simply having a cordial discussion where we aren't afraid to take it to the next dimension...higher level. ...That's all.
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post #79 of 112 Old 04-27-2015, 12:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
Scott, what is your own personal order of preference?
Normally, I don't express my opinion in these polls, but since I've written and spoken about this particular subject in the past, it's already out there. Here is my personal order of preference:

1. HDR
2. WCG
3. HFR
4. Pixel count

The first three are a virtual tie for me—I want them all equally. Unlike some on AVS, I like the look of HFR, especially the clarity of things in motion and camera pans. Pixel count is in distant last place for me at home, but since that is the only element that's fully baked into UHD, it's here to stay. I only hope the other elements are decided upon and delivered ASAP.

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post #80 of 112 Old 04-27-2015, 12:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cvn74n2 View Post
Soctt,
I think there is a problem in the poll display with total percentage going over 100%. My guess is the denominator is a fixed number vice increasing with each vote.
There's no problem; this is a multiple-choice poll, so each person can choose more than one item in the list, which results in a total percentage over 100%.

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post #81 of 112 Old 04-27-2015, 12:52 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
Normally, I don't express my opinion in these polls, but since I've written and spoken about this particular subject in the past, it's already out there. Here is my personal order of preference:

1. HDR
2. WCG
3. HFR
4. Pixel count

The first three are a virtual tie for me—I want them all equally. Unlike some on AVS, I like the look of HFR, especially the clarity of things in motion and camera pans. Pixel count is in distant last place for me at home, but since that is the only element that's fully baked into UHD, it's here to stay. I only hope the other elements are decided upon and delivered ASAP.
Thank you for sharing Mr. Scott sir. ...Me I did not vote because I simply don't have enough experience.
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post #82 of 112 Old 04-27-2015, 03:39 PM
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In the interest of poll perfection, we should be able to weight each element in its order of importance. Here's mine:

WCG = 9
HDR = 8
UHD = 3
HFR = 1

Wait, a scale of 1 to 100...that's even more perfect.
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post #83 of 112 Old 04-27-2015, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
Nobody is flawed; we are simply having a cordial discussion where we aren't afraid to take it to the next dimension...higher level. ...That's all.

Nobody here or elsewhere is perfect. We all can be better.
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Nobody here or elsewhere is perfect. We all can be better.
...And better we are. ,,, Better than who? ,,, Better than ourselves, that's who.
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post #85 of 112 Old 04-27-2015, 08:41 PM
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4k pixel counts are absolutely necessary with the additionally 8k being absolutely helpful in movie theaters (especially for the first 10 rows or so).

More of everything is necessary. Now that I own a Retina 5k 28" Imac on my desktop, I am no longer wanting for good image quality from my computer. If only my projector were even half as good as this display...

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post #86 of 112 Old 04-27-2015, 08:54 PM
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1. Higher frame rate (eg. 240 fps) so there can be less blur and judder. Like people have said, without this the higher pixel resolution won't be much good since it will be blurred or judder more obvious - depending on screen size/viewing distance.
2. Possibly pixel count (depending on screen size/viewing distance)

Unsure about the next two. Not really sure about how much effect wider colour gamut will have:
3. High dynamic range. Possibly. If it makes things more accurate. As long as you can turn it off, and also turn it down. And as long as things aren't too bright.
4. Wide colour gamut. Probably only mostly needed if there's HDR. But it should save on dithering with standard dynamic range which is good. But maybe not with HDR 10 bit.

But HDR without HFR will make the judder much more obvious than standard dynamic range. Like the BBC/news sites have said. So I'm not sure how much HDR without HFR will really improve the picture, if it makes judder much more obvious, as well if it gets used to make things much too bright. Also the EBU tests have tested up to 240 fps and found the subjective quality going up much more than the other parameters, yet this poll only mentions up to 120 fps (what is currently in the UHD-1/2 specs). Though UHD Blu-ray won't even go to that (only to 60 - no higher than was in the first Blu-ray in 2006).
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post #87 of 112 Old 04-27-2015, 09:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyoAJB View Post
The poll isn't flawed. The idea is that you vote only for the element that you think is most important. The only reason for picking multiple elements is if you think there are two or more that are equally important.

I understand that you would like to be able to rank them in terms of importance, but that's not possible with a single poll unless the number of choices is increased to include every possible combination of options in every possible order...

1) HDR>WCG>HFR>4K
2) WCG>HDR>HFR>4K
.......
As you can see, a single poll is not the most efficient way to determine the exact order of importance. And even if we did use such a poll, one would have to question whether or not we should have been able to assign a weight to the importance of each, as opposed to simply assigning an order.

If you really want to know the order of importance of each element, you would ask everybody to rate each element on a scale from 1-10 and then tabulate the results. But, I don't think that Scott wanted to set up a spreadsheet to handle the results.
What if everyone was asked to write the importance of each element in order, in a specific (easy) format, with the option of adding scores/weights (eg. 1-10). Then have a program/programs do the calculating (reading each page and post and totalling the results) instead of having to do it manually by manually entering the figures into a spreadsheet? The results could then be put into a spreadsheet to generate the chart if that was quicker/easier than doing it in the program. If a standard format was decided, the same method/program(s) - without change - should be able to be used for any polls requiring scores like this (assuming it was okayed by the forum admins/owners).

Also, other forums allow multiple questions. If a multiple question poll was created like in other forums, it could ask "1. what is the most important", "2. what is the 2nd most important", etc. That would be easier but not as accurate/good as the above method - if the forum allowed multiple questions like others do.

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post #88 of 112 Old 04-28-2015, 02:09 AM
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I wish I could watch the Manny vs. Money fight this weekend in 4K @ 240fps. Would be the most awesome soap opera I've ever seen!!!!
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post #89 of 112 Old 04-28-2015, 08:38 AM
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Higher frame rate for me, I wonder why it's written in italics, motion blur is simply a very annoying and distracting issue in my opinion
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post #90 of 112 Old 04-28-2015, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torkens View Post
Higher frame rate for me, I wonder why it's written in italics, motion blur is simply a very annoying and distracting issue in my opinion
The options you vote for are shown in italics - to highlight to you the fact that those were your chosen options in the poll.
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