FYI: New URC policy on MX series....no updates... - Page 17 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Baselworld is only a few weeks away. Getting the latest news is easy, Click Here for info on how to join the Watchuseek.com newsletter list. Follow our team for updates featuring event coverage, new product unveilings, watch industry news & more!



Forum Jump: 
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
post #481 of 508 Old 10-01-2006, 10:28 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
HT Nut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Isle of Kent, MD USA
Posts: 1,500
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
If anyone here is in a predicament due to the new URC policy, please email me.

Jerry the HT Nut
HT Nut is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #482 of 508 Old 10-01-2006, 10:34 PM
AVS Special Member
 
ThomasV555's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,024
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Ummm.. caveat emptor.

I wonder if some sleazeball is going to try and class action this.. it might work for them. (Points up)

I have used Harmony remotes. Congrats to those who converted. They work. I don't like them. They are cheap feeling and the new remotes are getting worse.
The peanut remotes were nice - 659, 676, 680, 880, 890, and 1000.

Then again I don't care for the 900 either. Give me the 850 with a better color screen.

Why does it matter if Ebay dealers are gone, yet online guys like (sorry) Mike from SurfRemoteControl just knock down the price. What's the point?

Do all of you guys have jobs anywhere? How do you waste so much time arguing?

This bloody Redcoat said I was a terrorist.

Somewhere along the way I become an Elitist who looks down on the
cheap bastards who call themselves my AV Hobbyist peers.
I am not prepared.
ThomasV555 is offline  
post #483 of 508 Old 10-02-2006, 08:22 AM
Advanced Member
 
bigpapa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Kailua Kona, HI
Posts: 939
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Johnla,

You've completely missed the point. If you need to service your car, you do not call Michigan, nor take it to Michigan; that's the point. You go to the place you bought the car from; or, in some places, any place that services your Ford. Not Michigan.

Point is, go to the place you bought your remote from.

HT Nut,

In the time it took you to go to small claims, you could probably sweat your vendor enough so maybe you could get Live Update.

Thomas,

I'm not arguing, but everyone else is! LOL
bigpapa is offline  
post #484 of 508 Old 10-02-2006, 10:13 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Johnla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,177
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 39 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigpapa

You've completely missed the point. If you need to service your car, you do not call Michigan, nor take it to Michigan; that's the point. You go to the place you bought the car from; or, in some places, any place that services your Ford. Not Michigan.

Point is, go to the place you bought your remote from.
NO, you have no POINT! And again, you even COMPLETELY missed the point! And you even just said so! The car has MANY options for repair and service, and not just as you mistakenly said "in some places, any place that services your Ford" because there are a hell of a lot more than only a few Ford and Lincoln Mercury dealers around, and not just "some". The remote does not, and I sure do doubt that you as a CI, actually do any form of actual circuit "repairs" on any physically defective remotes, and no just exchanging them for another is NOT a repair! Also the car dealers are a franchise of the car manufacture, and in some rare cases the car dealership is even owned and operated by the manufacture, but either way they both have a direct connection to the manufacture. You CI's and other people that are selling the remotes are not, you are not a franchise of URC or owned by URIC, and you also do not have any real direct connection with URC other than you sell some of their products. You are simply nothing more than a reseller! Plus a little more info for you, yes you CAN call Ford up in Michigan and talk to them, and even get some support and also even technical information, if you know the right phone numbers to call. But why in the hell would anyone 2000 or 3000 miles away from Michigan, even want to take their cars back to Dearborn just to have something like a starter motor replaced under warranty? And I sure as hell don't see anyone wanting to send their remotes back to the factory in China that assembles them for URC, to have anything done to them. So again, your reasoning is totally flawed. But hey, that's nothing new for you!
Johnla is offline  
post #485 of 508 Old 10-02-2006, 10:20 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Johnla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,177
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 39 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigpapa

You've completely missed the point. If you need to service your car, you do not call Michigan, nor take it to Michigan; that's the point. You go to the place you bought the car from; or, in some places, any place that services your Ford. Not Michigan.

Point is, go to the place you bought your remote from.
NO, you have no POINT! And again, you even COMPLETELY missed the point! And you even just said so! The car has MANY options for repair and service, and not just as you mistakenly said "in some places, any place that services your Ford". There are a hell of a lot more than only just a few Ford and Lincoln Mercury dealers around. The remote does not, and I sure do doubt that you as a CI, actually do any form of actual circuit "repairs" on any physically defective remotes, and no just exchanging them for another is NOT a repair! Also the car dealers are a franchise of the car manufacture, and in some rare cases the car dealership is even owned and operated by the manufacture, but either way they both have a direct connection to the manufacture. You CI's and other people that are selling the remotes are not, you are not a franchise of URC or owned by URIC, and you also do not have any real direct connection with URC other than you sell some of their products. You are simply nothing more than a reseller! Plus a little more info for you, yes you CAN call Ford up in Michigan and talk to them, and even get some support and also even technical information, if you know the right phone numbers to call. But why in the hell would anyone 2000 or 3000 miles away from Michigan, even want to take their cars back to Dearborn just to have something like a starter motor replaced under warranty? And I sure as hell don't see anyone wanting to send their remotes back to the factory in China that assembles them for URC, to have anything done to them. So again, your reasoning is totally flawed. But hey, that's nothing new for you!
Johnla is offline  
post #486 of 508 Old 10-02-2006, 12:12 PM
Member
 
quarterhorse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Chicago area
Posts: 35
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I don't really see a problem with URC, being th owner of a couple of MX700 a MX850 and a 250
extender. All you do is buy them from an authorized dealer. I got mine from Pro Remotes for a great price. Just call them and see if they got a deal going. Got mine for a 30% discount off of list and they sent all the data for the programing.
quarterhorse is offline  
post #487 of 508 Old 10-02-2006, 03:34 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
HT Nut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Isle of Kent, MD USA
Posts: 1,500
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
BP,

Why should I sweat anyone but URC? They made the dumb decision. I don't get mad, I get even.

1/4 pony,

When did you buy these remotes? I got mine in January 2005.

Jerry the HT Nut
HT Nut is offline  
post #488 of 508 Old 10-02-2006, 11:45 PM
AVS Special Member
 
techman707's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Florida & New York
Posts: 9,417
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by HT Nut
BP,

Why should I sweat anyone but URC? They made the dumb decision. I don't get mad, I get even.

1/4 pony,

When did you buy these remotes? I got mine in January 2005.
Whatever IDIOT made the decision to SCREW their existing customers and future victims should be fired. While greed fits in somewhere here, it's a feeble attempt to make certain dealers and installers feel that they can overcharge their customers who they "think" will have no other choice but to pay an inflated price. :mad:

How come AMX and Crestron (or even Extron) doesn't feel it's necessary to "lockout" customers from their updates and technical information? Because those companies know that the "average" customer either can't, won't or doesn't have the time or patience to program their own system and merely wants to read the information (which in most cases is greek to them).

For the potential new customers of URC I say, there are OTHER companies just waiting to take your money and who don't pull that crap.

For the existing customers who were summarily locked out with NO warning after years of it being supplied with no problem, all I can say is it's REALLY POOR BUSINESS SENSE, which I'm sure will translate to their bottom line in the long run.

In addition, if there is one thing I've learned, the laws from state to state in this country are as varied as some of the fools that write them, but, this practice is probably in violation of the law in some states.

And for the rest of you, all I can say is: I__S M E L L__C L A S S__A C T I O N! :p :D :p

"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." -Ghandi
techman707 is offline  
post #489 of 508 Old 10-03-2006, 12:06 AM
AVS Special Member
 
techman707's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Florida & New York
Posts: 9,417
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nimnifnof
Well as I'm finishing up my home theater I have been in the market for a good remote for awhile. The MX700 was at the top of my list and I could have gotten it at a good price from an authorized distributor.

But my concern was dealing with all these software issues and this new ridiculous self serving policy of URC. Even though I could have gotten the 'latest' version of the software, what's to keep them from changing their minds again in the future? What kind of support will I get from them down the road? Some big if's there that turned me off.

Unfortunately for URC, I ended up with a Harmony, programmed it, thoroughly enjoying it and not doubting my decision one bit. Thanks to URC's misguidedness for directing me to the Harmony's. ;)

You're off to a good start! If you need any help, just ask. ;)

I told all my customers that if there was any problem that I couldn't take care of, I would give them a comparable Pronto (or better) fully programmed at my cost.

Until URC pulled this nonsense, when a customer asked why their remotes were so much more than all the others (that could do essentially the same thing), I would say it was a professional product. I guess I wasn't lying, because they NO LONGER want any "consumers" on their website. :rolleyes:


Someday someone will say, what was the name of that company that used to make those professional remotes? :D .......It's on the tip of my tongue. :)

"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." -Ghandi
techman707 is offline  
post #490 of 508 Old 10-03-2006, 07:54 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
David Bott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: Traveling The USA
Posts: 9,869
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 44
Sorry all, this thread really has now gone past the topic at hand and has gone into an issue of members fighting members. We will not let this continue and will remind you that accounts can be suspended or banned for such abuse.

Keep it in check. Only warning.

Thank you.

David Bott
Founder - AVSForum


DISCLAIMER: All spelling and grammatical errors done on purpose for the proofreadingly challenged...:)

David Bott is offline  
post #491 of 508 Old 10-03-2006, 03:15 PM
Advanced Member
 
bigpapa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Kailua Kona, HI
Posts: 939
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Yes, well, uh...

All comparisons to Ford and SHOUTING aside, this still comes to channel control, not feeble attempts to 'screw people' or create an environment where CI's feel empowered to screw their customers. That's pure hyperbole not based in reality.

In the end, all that's happened is that; you have to get support from the place you bought the remote from, and URC will still provide SW, although without Live Update.

Most people won't need Live Update; should you need to update, you have to uninstall your current app and reinstall the newest app, if there's even an available update.

I think URC, CI's, and end users will net sum benefit, though there were many that were inconvenienced in this transitional period. It's too bad many think it's all based in greed or negative influences perpetrated by other groups, although that makes for good foible.
bigpapa is offline  
post #492 of 508 Old 10-03-2006, 03:28 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Johnla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,177
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 39 Post(s)
Liked: 30
No matter how you try to spin it, it's still pretty much a policy based on greed. If you buy a retail box of WinXP at a place like Best Buy, you don't see Microsoft making you have to go back to Best Buy to get WinXP product support, or for any of the new service packs that Microsoft may come out with after you bought it.
Johnla is offline  
post #493 of 508 Old 10-03-2006, 03:47 PM
AVS Special Member
 
techman707's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Florida & New York
Posts: 9,417
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigpapa
In the end, all that's happened is that; you have to get support from the place you bought the remote from, and URC will still provide SW, although without Live Update.

It shouldn't be the purchaser's responsibility to have to determine who IS and who ISN'T and "authorized dealer". Do you think companies like Buy.com are stealing them off a truck?


Quote:
Most people won't need Live Update; should you need to update, you have to uninstall your current app and reinstall the newest app, if there's even an available update. .

Can I tell all MY customers that BIGPAPA says they can go ahead and buy that MX-3000 because they won't ever need Live Update, because BIGPAPA is going to check all the new code for bugs BEFORE the product is released to the public. Do you have a phone number at URC where people can reach you if they have a problem? I think not. :rolleyes:


Quote:
I think URC, CI's, and end users will net sum benefit, though there were many that were inconvenienced in this transitional period. It's too bad many think it's all based in greed or negative influences perpetrated by other groups, although that makes for good foible.
The ONLY people who "might" benefit are "some" CI's, since the end user doesn't play into this at all.....except to be held hostage by some CI's. ;)

"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." -Ghandi
techman707 is offline  
post #494 of 508 Old 10-03-2006, 04:23 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Johnla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,177
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 39 Post(s)
Liked: 30
There is absolutely no way, that any end users will benefit from this.
Johnla is offline  
post #495 of 508 Old 10-03-2006, 04:37 PM
Advanced Member
 
bigpapa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Kailua Kona, HI
Posts: 939
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnla
No matter how you try to spin it, it's still pretty much a policy based on greed.
Why is it that you think I'm 'spinning' it?

If this was based purely on greed, URC would likely push all MX remotes on every store shelf it could, as well as every website it could. It's clear this isn't happening because most vendors online, will have 5 of this model, and 4 of this model, but not the entire product line. I was in a larger market BB last weekend, and of all their URC remotes they offered, they only had two MX650's. There's not a consistent product offering with all these outlets. I would think there would be if they're just trying to move boxes.

Likewise, they'd probably go the Pronto route and completely abandon call-in tech support. And abandon CI protection too.

The Greed story just doesn't add up, and all supportive evidence is anecdotal.
bigpapa is offline  
post #496 of 508 Old 10-03-2006, 04:47 PM
AVS Special Member
 
techman707's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Florida & New York
Posts: 9,417
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigpapa
Why is it that you think I'm 'spinning' it?

If this was based purely on greed, URC would likely push all MX remotes on every store shelf it could, as well as every website it could. It's clear this isn't happening because most vendors online, will have 5 of this model, and 4 of this model, but not the entire product line. I was in a larger market BB last weekend, and of all their URC remotes they offered, they only had two MX650's. There's not a consistent product offering with all these outlets. I would think there would be if they're just trying to move boxes.

Likewise, they'd probably go the Pronto route and completely abandon call-in tech support. And abandon CI protection too.

The Greed story just doesn't add up, and all supportive evidence is anecdotal.
Me thinks thou dust protest too much. :p

"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." -Ghandi
techman707 is offline  
post #497 of 508 Old 10-03-2006, 04:50 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Johnla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,177
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 39 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Oh it adds up all right, if you do the math correctly.
And your comment about being worried about "CI protection", pretty much even proves that.
Johnla is offline  
post #498 of 508 Old 10-03-2006, 04:57 PM
AVS Special Member
 
techman707's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Florida & New York
Posts: 9,417
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnla
Oh it adds up all right, if you do the math correctly.
And your comment about being worried about "CI protection", pretty much even proves that.
He's just telling the truth when he say CI protection. :) I'm a CI, but why is it that I don't need any protection? :confused:

If a CI wants (or needs) protection, they should just DO THEIR JOB properly and they'll find they don't need protection.

"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." -Ghandi
techman707 is offline  
post #499 of 508 Old 10-03-2006, 04:59 PM
Advanced Member
 
bigpapa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Kailua Kona, HI
Posts: 939
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by techman707
It shouldn't be the purchaser's responsibility to have to determine who IS and who ISN'T and "authorized dealer".
It shouldn't? What about all the other manufacturers the make the same requirement for their products, including projectors, displays, AV equipment... etc.

Why is URC expected to play by a different set of rules?


Quote:
Originally Posted by techman707
Can I tell all MY customers that BIGPAPA says they can go ahead and buy that MX-3000 because they won't ever....
I never said 'ever.' I said unlikely, for most people. Quite making things up.... and SHOUTING. I can hear you quite fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by techman707
The ONLY people who "might" benefit are "some" CI's, since the end user doesn't play into this at all.....except to be held hostage by some CI's. ;)
Totally disagree. This theory doesn't hold up well with the 'greed' theory though, since net sum URC might acutally sell less MX remotes.
bigpapa is offline  
post #500 of 508 Old 10-03-2006, 05:01 PM
Advanced Member
 
bigpapa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Kailua Kona, HI
Posts: 939
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by techman707
Me thinks thou dust protest too much. :p
At least I'm not SHOUTING LOL.
bigpapa is offline  
post #501 of 508 Old 10-03-2006, 05:04 PM
Advanced Member
 
bigpapa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Kailua Kona, HI
Posts: 939
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnla
Oh it adds up all right, if you do the math correctly.
And your comment about being worried about "CI protection", pretty much even proves that.
Protection is a term that most here like to call it, I should have put in into parenthesis because it's not a proper term it's one of the hyperbolically loaded terms being thrown about. I'm not worried about protection at all, and nowhere in my statement does it mean that. You're just imagining it.

I was being facetious by using the term. But, I'm sure hay will be made of it in leiu of discussing URC policy :D
bigpapa is offline  
post #502 of 508 Old 10-03-2006, 05:23 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Johnla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,177
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 39 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigpapa
I'm not worried about protection at all, and nowhere in my statement does it mean that. You're just imagining it.
Well I did not imagine it at all, because you did say it.

From http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post8573522

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigpapa
go the Pronto route and completely abandon call-in tech support. And abandon CI protection too.
Johnla is offline  
post #503 of 508 Old 10-03-2006, 08:26 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Johnla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,177
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 39 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Well, you know what? I give up, now you want to try and change what you said or what it means after you are questioned about statements that you do make. It looks like all you really want to here, is intentionally have people argue with you, just like at remotecentral. Have fun..... But I'm with what David Bott said, and it's not worth it to argue with you.
Johnla is offline  
post #504 of 508 Old 10-03-2006, 08:41 PM
QQQ
AVS Addicted Member
 
QQQ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,292
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnla
It looks like all you really want to here, is intentionally have people argue with you, just like at remotecentral. Have fun..... But I'm with what David Bott said, and it's not worth it to argue with you.
So why have you been doing it for umpteen pages?
QQQ is offline  
post #505 of 508 Old 10-03-2006, 09:43 PM
Senior Member
 
MegaByte's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Seattle WA
Posts: 327
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Jeez...
Is this still going on with you guys...
This is really, really getting old.
This thread has become useless.
MegaByte is offline  
post #506 of 508 Old 10-03-2006, 09:54 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Johnla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,177
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 39 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by QQQ
So why have you been doing it for umpteen pages?
And why are you even asking now?
Johnla is offline  
post #507 of 508 Old 10-03-2006, 10:43 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Johnla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,177
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 39 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by MegaByte
This thread has become useless.
Considering it was a thread that was started mainly to complain about a policy change at URC, that's not really surprising. Because it's very unlikely that it was ever going to do much to convince URC to change their minds about the policy change. And those resellers and CI's who back them making such a move, thinking it's good for some reason, are not going to change either.
Johnla is offline  
post #508 of 508 Old 10-03-2006, 10:50 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
David Bott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: Traveling The USA
Posts: 9,869
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 44
Ok, even with the note above it is still going the same way. As such, this thread has outlived it use and went from a topic of interest, to a topic of attacks.

Regretfully the thread is now closed.

David Bott
Founder - AVSForum


DISCLAIMER: All spelling and grammatical errors done on purpose for the proofreadingly challenged...:)

David Bott is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Closed Thread Remote Control Area

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off