HDR Game mastering levels - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 4Likes
  • 3 Post By Wookii
  • 1 Post By Wookii
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 12 Old 09-01-2017, 05:26 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Wookii's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,839
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1321 Post(s)
Liked: 481
HDR Game mastering levels

I've asked this in another section, but thought I'd post it here also to spread the net a little:

Simple question but might not be a simple answer.

HDR UHD blu-rays contain a metadata stream which includes details for the peak luminance of the mastering monitor (ScrMax) and the peak luminance of any highlight in the actual content (MaxCLL).

On HDR games (at least on the PS4 Pro anyway) there is no metadata, or at least the metadata stream if there is one contains no values (or zero values) for these two luminance stats.

Given this, does anyone know what peak luminance HDR games are mastered to?
Wookii is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 12 Old 09-01-2017, 06:11 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
nathanddrews's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1,660
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 422 Post(s)
Liked: 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
Given this, does anyone know what peak luminance HDR games are mastered to?
I believe HDR games peak at 4,000 nits, since that's the "cap" for HDR10. Whether or not the artists actually design their assets to be viewed with such superfluous color is another topic altogether.

How are you measuring/detecting the metadata stream? HDFury? Are you running HDR via 10-bit 4:2:0 or 8-bit 4:4:4?
nathanddrews is offline  
post #3 of 12 Old 09-01-2017, 03:47 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Wookii's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,839
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1321 Post(s)
Liked: 481
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathanddrews View Post
I believe HDR games peak at 4,000 nits, since that's the "cap" for HDR10. Whether or not the artists actually design their assets to be viewed with such superfluous color is another topic altogether.

How are you measuring/detecting the metadata stream? HDFury? Are you running HDR via 10-bit 4:2:0 or 8-bit 4:4:4?
Thanks for the reply Nathan. HDR10 actually specifies a peak luminance of 10,000nits. The 4000nits is just the highest luminance achievable in currently available mastering monitors (namely the Dolby Pulsar).

What I don't know is whether games are mastered on such monitors or not, or instead on lower output monitors that peak ata round 1000nits.

I'm using a Lumagen Radiance Pro which can read the incoming metadata stream, but a HDFury Linker would produce the same result.
Wookii is offline  
 
post #4 of 12 Old 09-01-2017, 08:52 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
nathanddrews's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1,660
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 422 Post(s)
Liked: 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
What I don't know is whether games are mastered on such monitors or not, or instead on lower output monitors that peak ata round 1000nits. I'm using a Lumagen Radiance Pro which can read the incoming metadata stream, but a HDFury Linker would produce the same result.
I've watched a lot of developer diaries and interviews with BioWare (Andromeda), Turn10 (Forza), Gorilla Games (Zero Dawn), etc. and they have all used consumer HDR TVs to test/evaluate HDR. So at best, I think that's like 1500-2000 nits. I'm sure in 10 years we'll look back and refer to this time as the dark ages of HDR. Pun intended.
nathanddrews is offline  
post #5 of 12 Old 09-03-2017, 11:35 AM
Member
 
Vagrant Pistol's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: NJ
Posts: 189
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 30 Post(s)
Liked: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
I've asked this in another section, but thought I'd post it here also to spread the net a little:



Simple question but might not be a simple answer.



HDR UHD blu-rays contain a metadata stream which includes details for the peak luminance of the mastering monitor (ScrMax) and the peak luminance of any highlight in the actual content (MaxCLL).



On HDR games (at least on the PS4 Pro anyway) there is no metadata, or at least the metadata stream if there is one contains no values (or zero values) for these two luminance stats.



Given this, does anyone know what peak luminance HDR games are mastered to?


I've been playing HDR games and noticed various difference with them; Resogun, Matterfall, Nex Machina, The Last Of Us, FFXV, Rez Infinite, etc. So, I m curious about this myself. Don't think some developers are using standards, if any, correctly. Since HDR gaming is still in its infancy until HDMI 2.1, I think some of these developers may be doing the minimum to get their game pushed out in HDR. When you look at Nex Machina, it sure as hell doesn't look like it was developed correctly to take the full benefits of HDR. Same as FFXV and the Last Of Us. HDR seems real weak in those games. (All based on my experience with the Sony 930e which has awesome HDR)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

"A Video Game Junkie At His Finest"
[1000+ games with 29 Consoles and counting]
Gamer Tag on Xbox and PSN: Vagrant Pistol

Sony 930E - Denon X4200W - Polk RTiA 7 - RTiA 3 - CSiA 6 - SVS SB12 Plus
Vagrant Pistol is offline  
post #6 of 12 Old 09-04-2017, 12:44 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Wookii's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,839
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1321 Post(s)
Liked: 481
Thanks for the input guys, however I have been able to verify a couple of titles myself to close the loop on my initial query. I have been able to use a 'debug' feature in the Lumagen Radiance Pro that highlights on screen (with a red flashing area) any parts of the image that have an input nit level above a predetermined limit.





Above is a quick iPhone pic of Unchartered: Lost legacy.

The predetermined limit is set by the "Linear Y>" percentage - this is basically a percentage of the 10000nit HDR10 max (e.g. 10%=1000nits, 40%=4000nits, 100%=10000nits etc). So any bright red flashing elements seen on screen (such as the centre of the explosion in the above image) have an input nit level 'above' the "Linear Y>" setting that is currently active.

As you can see in this screen shot, there is content in the explosions above 9700nits input level, in fact the red flashing area only disappears at Linear Y=100%

Long and short of it then, and to answer my original query, it looks like HDR titles, at least on the PS4Pro, are essentially mastered using the entire HDR10 range and have highlights up to 10,000nits input.

I have also ran this check on Horizon: Zero Dawn, with the same result. I will check on Infamous First light/Second Son, however I expect the result will be the same.
Wookii is offline  
post #7 of 12 Old 09-05-2017, 07:53 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
nathanddrews's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1,660
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 422 Post(s)
Liked: 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
Long and short of it then, and to answer my original query, it looks like HDR titles, at least on the PS4Pro, are essentially mastered using the entire HDR10 range and have highlights up to 10,000nits input.
That's cool! Good to know. Leave it to gaming to shoot for the moon.
nathanddrews is offline  
post #8 of 12 Old 09-05-2017, 09:29 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
helvetica bold's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: NYC
Posts: 1,177
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 547 Post(s)
Liked: 310
Guerrilla Games stated that the sun in HZD is 6000nits.
helvetica bold is offline  
post #9 of 12 Old 09-06-2017, 01:43 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Wookii's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,839
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1321 Post(s)
Liked: 481
Quote:
Originally Posted by helvetica bold View Post
Guerrilla Games stated that the sun in HZD is 6000nits.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsxnNgRRTKI&t=1050s
Interesting - I used the debug tool on the opening menu screen (that has the scene with the bright sun) - and that sun had highlights right up to 10000nits.
helvetica bold likes this.
Wookii is offline  
post #10 of 12 Old 09-06-2017, 05:57 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
helvetica bold's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: NYC
Posts: 1,177
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 547 Post(s)
Liked: 310
Do you have Battlefield 1? The HDR patch came out last night and I expect DICE to have first rate
implementation. Curious what the nit levels are.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
helvetica bold is offline  
post #11 of 12 Old 09-06-2017, 06:06 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Wookii's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,839
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1321 Post(s)
Liked: 481
Quote:
Originally Posted by helvetica bold View Post
Do you have Battlefield 1? The HDR patch came out last night and I expect DICE to have first rate
implementation. Curious what the nit levels are.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Oh cool, thanks for the heads up - I'll give is a go tonight with the Lumagen debug tool and report back - that single player campaign begged to be in HDR from day 1 if I'm honest!
Wookii is offline  
post #12 of 12 Old 09-06-2017, 06:44 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
helvetica bold's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: NYC
Posts: 1,177
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 547 Post(s)
Liked: 310
I agree! I think you need to download the new DLC Name of the Tsar. Beautiful maps and it seems DICE had HDR in mind lighting them. I promised myself I'd wait until next year for HDMI 2.1 to get an HDR display but it's tough waiting!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
helvetica bold is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Home Theater Gaming

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off