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#1 ·

I've been in several threads lately where the topic has been all about Audyssey and I've noted that there's not actually a thread specifically for it. There's one that seems to be about it, but it's titled as being about the Denon 3806. Audyssey, of course, exists in far more receivers than the 3806 nowadays, so I thought I'd throw a starter into the pool to see if people were interested in having one thread to discuss all Audyssey issues/comments/questions/stories/impressions that they've come up with from their personal receiver-experiences.


Myself, i was quite anti-Audyssey when I first came across it. My ears were quite used to what they'd had before which was very bass & treble heavy. Time has passed and I've really come to understand the strengths of Audyssey and respect the clean, flat signal that I now love and enjoy (and couldn't imagine being without). I'd love to hear from anyone else that wants to chime in or discuss issues.


Basic starter-links:


The Audyssey homepage .


The types of Audyssey implimentations in different receivers.



The Audyssey FAQ


The Audyssey setup guide


====

Audyssey tips:

Microphone Placement


The microphone has been calibrated for grazing incidence and so it must point to the ceiling during calibration. Any other orientation will produce incorrect results.


The microphone response has been calibrated to match (on average) the response of an industry-standard ¼ instrumentation microphone. It is critical to use the microphone that came with the receiver and not one from another model that may have a different calibration curve.


It is also important to place the microphone on a tripod or other stand so that it is at ear height. We strongly recommend against holding the microphone in your hand because this can give rise to low frequency handling noise that will cause the MultEQ filters to compensate by cutting those frequencies. Furthermore, it is not recommended to place the microphone on the back of the couch or recliner. If a tripod is used, care must be taken to ensure that the microphone is placed at a height just above the seat back so that reflections from the seat do not cause problems at higher frequencies.


The first microphone position is used to calculate the distances to each loudspeaker and subwoofer and set the delays. It is also used to measure and set the trims. So, it is important to place the microphone in the main listening seat for the first measurement.


MultEQ measures the background noise level in the room before playing the test signal from each speaker. For the measurements to be valid, the signal to noise ratio must be above a certain threshold. If it is not, the test signal from that speaker will repeat at a higher level. If the noise in the room happens to be higher during some of the speaker measurements, then the test signals from those speakers will sound louder than the test signals from the other speakers. This does not affect the calculation of trim levels. If the room noise is too high even after the test signals increase in level, then an error message will be displayed warning the user that measurements can not be completed.


After the first position is measured, MultEQ measures other positions in the room around the listening area. These do not necessarily have to be in each individual seat. The idea is to capture as many points around the listening area as possible so that the acoustical problems that affect the quality of sound within that area are minimized.


For example, we recommend taking 3 positions on the couch facing the TV and then 3 more positions about 3 feet in front of the couch and parallel to the first three. Measurements up against the back or side walls should be avoided.


Some loudspeakers have rather problematic responses when measured off-axis (i.e. more than 15° away from the imaginary straight line that points to the listening position). In these systems, measurements taken too far away from the center line will show a reduced high-frequency response that may result in overcorrection and thus overly bright sound. Although it is difficult to predict which type of loudspeaker will have these off-axis problems we have most often observed them in poorly-designed multiple-driver arrays that exhibit very high off-axis lobing. In these situations we recommend a tighter calibration pattern centered around the main listening position and making sure that the mic is not placed in extreme locations and certainly not outside the plane of the front main speakers.

Checking the Results


Once MultEQ calibration is complete the results are stored in the receiver memory.


It is important to activate MultEQ by selecting one of the target curves. This is not performed by default after the calibration is finished and must be selected by the user. In a THX system we recommend using the Flat setting that allows the re-equalization to work as intended. In other systems, we recommend Audyssey for movie playback and Flat for music playback. Unfortunately, the music industry does not have any mixing standards like the movie industry so some music program material may sound better with the Audyssey setting. Front Align also uses the Audyssey process, but it does not apply the filters to the two front loudspeakers. Manual is not an Audyssey setting and does not use MultEQ filters. It is a simple parametric equalizer and will be subject to all the limitations that come with parametric EQ.


Small vs. Large speakers. This is the most commonly discussed topic by MultEQ users. The first thing to understand is that it is not a personal insult to your system if your speakers were detected as Small. It simply means, that in the room they were measured the - 3 dB point was detected at 80 Hz or above. This may happen even if the manufacturer's spec shows that the speaker is capable of playing lower. In fact, there are several benefits at crossing the speakers over at 80 Hz that have to do with power handling and headroom in the bass region that will be handled by the subwoofer amplifier.


The second most common question also relates to Small vs. Large. In the Denon receivers, MultEQ will designate as Large any speaker that has a -3 dB point below 80 Hz. For non-THX speaker systems this is an arbitrary definition that often causes confusion. All it means is that the speaker will not be bass managed unless the user tells it to be. Because Audyssey is not in charge of bass management, we have to abide by the manufacturers' rules and simply report the information found by the measurements to the bass management system.


In situations where the speakers do not play significantly below 80 Hz, an additional step must be taken to make sure that there is no loss of bass information. The user must set the speaker to Small manually so that bass management is performed properly.


Polarity: MultEQ checks the absolute polarity of each loudspeaker and reports it to the user. This is simply a report and does not affect the subsequent calculations in any way. It just asks you to check the wiring to make sure it is connected properly to each speaker. Sometimes we get false alarms. This is usually because the speaker has a driver (usually the mid-range driver) wired out-of-phase intentionally to make up for some problems at the crossover region. If a phase warning is shown, it is not a cause of alarm. Simply check the cables and hit Skip if everything is fine. Again, this does not have any effect on the EQ results.


Subwoofer distance: in many active subwoofers it is not possible to defeat the low-pass filtering. That means that the pre-pro bass management filters will be on top of the low-pass filters inside the subwoofer. The built-in low-filters introduce a delay to the signal coming in (because they have poles). This delay is seen by MultEQ as acoustical delay and is reported in the results. That is why sometimes the subwoofer distance is reported to be longer than the physical measured distance. The setting should not be changed because the blend between the sub and the satellites has been designed based on this time delay.


The design constraints for MultEQ were that it (1) must fit within a small portion of the DSP so that other processes can also run and (2) it must use FIR filters because of the well-known artifacts that IIR filters cause particularly in the time domain response. As it turns out, these two requirements are contradicting. In order for FIR filters to be effective and capable of correcting to low frequencies, they must consist of several thousand coefficients (taps). The problem is that the CPU power required increases with the number of taps, hence the dilemma. What we did at Audyssey was to come up with a different way to partition the frequency axis so that we can use fewer taps and yet not completely give up on low frequency resolution (and therefore low frequency correction). This allows us to take a 512 tap filter that would normally have a resolution of 94 Hz (meaning that any peak or dip narrower than 94 Hz would be missed) and significantly improve its resolving power. The resolution of the filter actually varies continuously with frequency and starts at around 10 Hz. Does this mean that MultEQ can correct an arbitrarily narrow peak or dip at 30 Hz? Of course not. The reality is that in the MultEQ XT version found in receivers, we can correct broader features below 100 Hz better than narrow ones. For example, a lump that is half an octave wide at 50 Hz can be fixed. A narrow dip or peak that is 1/3 or 1/6 octaves wide and centered at 30 Hz will be improved, but not eliminated.


The on-screen display in the receiver has very limited graphics. Therefore it is not possible to really show what the MultEQ correction filter is doing at all frequencies. It appears to only be operating on 9 bands like a parametric equalizer, but this is not the case. What is shown is a very crude approximation to the MultEQ correction and it should not be used to read exact values of cut or boost at the 9 frequencies shown.


Furthermore, there is no display for the subwoofer filter. This doesn't mean that there is no subwoofer correction. It was not added to the display because of interface and memory considerations.


(tips by Chris, CTO, Audyssey Laboratories)
 
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#361 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy Anderson /forum/post/12271738


What are you measuring this with? If it's a Radio Shack SPL meter, remember that it is less accurate with lower frequencies and requires a correction value to get a proper reading (hence the reason we have correction charts for doing coarse equalization with that meter). A 6dB rolloff as measured on the meter may well indicate flat response with the correction.


If that's not it, well... I got nothin'.


Yes I'm using a Radio shack SPL and I am using the corrections.


I am comparing to before and after with applying audyessy, so it's definitely doing something just not what I would want with LFE.
 
#362 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by jedi.night /forum/post/12270639


I have a denon 987 (same as 2807) and with audyessy Eq it seems to always roll of my LFE right where I wouldn't want it rolled off.


If I run test tones at 16hz and 20hz as well as 25hz, with the EQ engaged, I get as much as a 6db drop at some or all of those frequencies. And they aren't peaks that are getting rolled off either.


I've run it numerous times with the gain on my sub's changed just to see If I could get it to stop cutting the very low LFE and it always does.


Any ideas?

There has been a lot of discussion on the effect Audyssey has on very deep bass (below 25 Hz) which you can read about in the first hundred posts of this thread, and the "My AVR-3806 Audyssey Experience!" thread. The Audyssey system has to make some compromises due to limited computation capability, and it seems that rolling off the really deep bass (as a consequence of trying to keep everything above about 30 Hz flat) may be a consequence of that.


That said, you might check to see if there has been a firmware update for your AVR which might help. Most folks just turned up their sub level a few dB as a compromise.
 
#363 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by jedi.night /forum/post/12274289


Yes I'm using a Radio shack SPL and I am using the corrections.


I am comparing to before and after with applying audyessy, so it's definitely doing something just not what I would want with LFE.

When you're setting up the mic to run Audyssey, are you placing it within about 18" from any wall? One of the common issues I've seen is with people placing the mic too close to room boundaries, which can cause Audyssey to cut bass frequencies affected by room-induced gain that might not actually exist where your ears normally are. Additionally, if you're holding a SPL meter while sitting in your listening position, you're holding it further away from where the Audyssey mic should have been placed (and putting your body's acoustics in the equation), meaning it may well read lower than it should (because your ears are closer to the back wall than the SPL meter and you're not reading rear wall reflections/gain with your body in the way). Just a thought. If you're not near the back wall, it doesn't really apply.


This effect of room boundaries on the equalization is part of why Audyssey recommends you do at least 6 mic positions - 3 at the seats and 3 a couple of feet in front of that. That helps it better analyze the effects of boundary gain on your subwoofer's in-room response and provide an equalization better suited for the general area. The first time I ran MultEQ XT, I just did a quick three position run with the mic near ear position (which unfortunately put it in front of the headrest of the seats, causing further acoustic issues with the equalization). The result was anemic bass. After more research, I re-ran all 8available positions with the mic slightly further into the room and at a height just above the headrests of my seating, and with phenomenally better results.


Check my FAQ I linked to earlier for some other placement/setup tips. Maybe your initial mic placement is throwing off the EQ'ing. Garbage in, garbage out, as the case may be.
 
#364 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by jedi.night /forum/post/12274289


Yes I'm using a Radio shack SPL and I am using the corrections.


I am comparing to before and after with applying audyessy, so it's definitely doing something just not what I would want with LFE.

That still doesn't necessarily mean that Audyseey is wrong. There has been much discussion regarding what the proper correction values are, and it can vary depending on the vintage of your RS meter. It is possible that your whole baseline based on the "corrected" RS meter values is incorrect.
 
#365 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darin /forum/post/12277110


That still doesn't necessarily mean that Audyseey is wrong. There has been much discussion regarding what the proper correction values are, and it can vary depending on the vintage of your RS meter. It is possible that your whole baseline based on the "corrected" RS meter values is incorrect.

Well, the analog RatShack SPL meters have a fairly consistent response curve, even between the newer and older ones. I don't know that he would see a 6dB inconsistency from that alone. I still think it's an issue with how he's running Audyssey to begin with.
 
#366 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson /forum/post/10677466


AFAIK, it is not possible with any Audyssey implementation.

I have Aerial 8B for fronts and Aerial 5B for the center and Aerial SW3 for surrounds.I always set my fronts and center to large and surrounds to small and crossovers to 80Hrz on my Lexicon preamp.I sold the Lexicon and purchased a Intrgra DTC-9.8 processor with the Audyssey program.What do you think should be my Speaker and Crossover seting on the 9.8 processor .Also at what crosser should i set my Sunfire Subwoffer? I want to use the crossover in the 9.8 for my subs and what do i set the crossover on my sub? do i set it all the way up or off when using the crossover in the 9.8 processor. I do not know what to do and need sum info.
 
#367 ·
1. I would start with the same crossover settings you were using before and adjust only if you see a need.

2. When using the crossover in a pre/pro, always set the subs own crossover to OFF (or all the way up if that's not possible).
 
#368 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson /forum/post/12287048


1. I would start with the same crossover settings you were using before and adjust only if you see a need.

2. When using the crossover in a pre/pro, always set the subs own crossover to OFF (or all the way up if that's not possible).

What to do if Audyssey sets speakers to small ? Do i reset the settings in speaker ajustment? do i set subs at 80 or 120 HTZ in settings ? Thanks for your help.
 
#369 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by voigtskins /forum/post/12287325


What to do if Audyssey sets speakers to small ?

80Hz means small.

Quote:
Do i reset the settings in speaker ajustment?

Of course.

Quote:
do i set subs at 80 or 120 HTZ in settings ?

??? In the 9.8, you want the upper cutoff for the sub at 120 unless you can localize them too easily. If so, try80Hz. On the subs, themselves, you want that cutoff as high as possible or bypassed.
 
#370 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darin /forum/post/12277110


That still doesn't necessarily mean that Audyseey is wrong. There has been much discussion regarding what the proper correction values are, and it can vary depending on the vintage of your RS meter. It is possible that your whole baseline based on the "corrected" RS meter values is incorrect.


I get what you are saying but if I use my SPL meter with audyessy on and off and in the same position and get different readings on LFE then it still has to have an effect. Correction values regardless.


Lets just say I don't correct the RS spl readings...they are still very different with low frq LFE when audysessy is on...so it definitely is cutting SPL's down low.
 
#371 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy Anderson /forum/post/12276271


When you're setting up the mic to run Audyssey, are you placing it within about 18" from any wall? One of the common issues I've seen is with people placing the mic too close to room boundaries, which can cause Audyssey to cut bass frequencies affected by room-induced gain that might not actually exist where your ears normally are. Additionally, if you're holding a SPL meter while sitting in your listening position, you're holding it further away from where the Audyssey mic should have been placed (and putting your body's acoustics in the equation), meaning it may well read lower than it should (because your ears are closer to the back wall than the SPL meter and you're not reading rear wall reflections/gain with your body in the way). Just a thought. If you're not near the back wall, it doesn't really apply.


This effect of room boundaries on the equalization is part of why Audyssey recommends you do at least 6 mic positions - 3 at the seats and 3 a couple of feet in front of that. That helps it better analyze the effects of boundary gain on your subwoofer's in-room response and provide an equalization better suited for the general area. The first time I ran MultEQ XT, I just did a quick three position run with the mic near ear position (which unfortunately put it in front of the headrest of the seats, causing further acoustic issues with the equalization). The result was anemic bass. After more research, I re-ran all 8available positions with the mic slightly further into the room and at a height just above the headrests of my seating, and with phenomenally better results.


Check my FAQ I linked to earlier for some other placement/setup tips. Maybe your initial mic placement is throwing off the EQ'ing. Garbage in, garbage out, as the case may be.

I will give it another shot. My couch is near the back wall so when I do use a

Tripod with the mic it probably is within 2 feet of the back wall, at least at the 1st seating position...but not really with the other 5 placements.


I've run audyessy at least 10 times since I got the denon last January and I've never gotten proper LFE readings...always cuts them even if I turn down the sub gain prior to running it.


just frustrating because I really want it to work. But I never turn it on because of the missing LFE.....
 
#372 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by jedi.night /forum/post/12274289


Yes I'm using a Radio shack SPL and I am using the corrections.


I am comparing to before and after with applying audyessy, so it's definitely doing something just not what I would want with LFE.

An RTA chart would help to eveluate this better.
 
#373 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by fyzziks /forum/post/12276232


There has been a lot of discussion on the effect Audyssey has on very deep bass (below 25 Hz) which you can read about in the first hundred posts of this thread, and the "My AVR-3806 Audyssey Experience!" thread. The Audyssey system has to make some compromises due to limited computation capability, and it seems that rolling off the really deep bass (as a consequence of trying to keep everything above about 30 Hz flat) may be a consequence of that.


That said, you might check to see if there has been a firmware update for your AVR which might help. Most folks just turned up their sub level a few dB as a compromise.

I think the latest version in the new Onks with triple DSP engines don't have those limitations, and they're ready for the Pro software, which previous versions in those Denons aren't.
 
#374 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by jedi.night /forum/post/12298596


I get what you are saying but if I use my SPL meter with audyessy on and off and in the same position and get different readings on LFE then it still has to have an effect. Correction values regardless.


Lets just say I don't correct the RS spl readings...they are still very different with low frq LFE when audysessy is on...so it definitely is cutting SPL's down low.

Yeah but how do you decide which is correct? You may just prefer the higher read for personal reasons, but it won't make it necessarily "right" though. However eventually it is you who should be "happy" with any settings, so preference might trumps accuracy.
 
#375 ·
"I've never gotten proper LFE readings...always cuts them even if I turn down the sub gain prior to running it."


Have you tried turning it *up* before cal?


I don't know how Audyssey determines a sub's capability, but it may assume yours' is low and decide to "baby" it if it's set low to begin with.
 
#376 ·
Im confused on the terminology of crossover freq... Ran the audessey on my3808ci and now my big bad 15" sub is barely audible..


Heres what it set all my klipsch at

Fronts 40mhz (set to large) Epic C3 (250watt)

Center 60mhz

Rears 80mhz

LFE 80mhz


Questions 1. Before running audessy what volume level on the sub in back should my be set at low or high?


2. When it asks for distance to sub is that from prime listening area where you sit??


any help would be much appreciated!!
 
#377 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by daron73m /forum/post/12318285


Im confused on the terminology of crossover freq... Ran the audessey on my3808ci and now my big bad 15" sub is barely audible..


Heres what it set all my klipsch at

Fronts 40mhz (set to large) Epic C3 (250watt)

Center 60mhz

Rears 80mhz

LFE 80mhz

No wonder. I'll bet you can't hear anything above 40mHz.


Quote:
Questions 1. Before running audessy what volume level on the sub in back should my be set at low or high?

I leave mine somewhere in the middle of its adjustment range.

Quote:
2. When it asks for distance to sub is that from prime listening area where you sit??

Audyssey doesn't ask that distance; it measures it.
 
#378 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by thehun /forum/post/12298786


I think the latest version in the new Onks with triple DSP engines don't have those limitations, and they're ready for the Pro software, which previous versions in those Denons aren't.

But jedi.night has a Denon 2807, not a late model Onk, so he may not have the latest version of Audyssey software.
 
#380 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by daron73m /forum/post/12321738


Hey Kal

So what should I set my fronts at if 40hz is not good?

What are they? What is their LF response like?

Quote:
I dont really get the crossover concept. Its all numbers to me.


I did have to change distance of sub, audessey made it 14 ft and its at 8 actually.

Don't change it. Audyssey distance measurement includes the time/phase delays in the sub processing and is undoubtedly more correct than your tape measure can be (if all the other distances were OK).
 
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