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#1 ·

I've been in several threads lately where the topic has been all about Audyssey and I've noted that there's not actually a thread specifically for it. There's one that seems to be about it, but it's titled as being about the Denon 3806. Audyssey, of course, exists in far more receivers than the 3806 nowadays, so I thought I'd throw a starter into the pool to see if people were interested in having one thread to discuss all Audyssey issues/comments/questions/stories/impressions that they've come up with from their personal receiver-experiences.


Myself, i was quite anti-Audyssey when I first came across it. My ears were quite used to what they'd had before which was very bass & treble heavy. Time has passed and I've really come to understand the strengths of Audyssey and respect the clean, flat signal that I now love and enjoy (and couldn't imagine being without). I'd love to hear from anyone else that wants to chime in or discuss issues.


Basic starter-links:


The Audyssey homepage .


The types of Audyssey implimentations in different receivers.



The Audyssey FAQ


The Audyssey setup guide


====

Audyssey tips:

Microphone Placement


The microphone has been calibrated for grazing incidence and so it must point to the ceiling during calibration. Any other orientation will produce incorrect results.


The microphone response has been calibrated to match (on average) the response of an industry-standard ¼ instrumentation microphone. It is critical to use the microphone that came with the receiver and not one from another model that may have a different calibration curve.


It is also important to place the microphone on a tripod or other stand so that it is at ear height. We strongly recommend against holding the microphone in your hand because this can give rise to low frequency handling noise that will cause the MultEQ filters to compensate by cutting those frequencies. Furthermore, it is not recommended to place the microphone on the back of the couch or recliner. If a tripod is used, care must be taken to ensure that the microphone is placed at a height just above the seat back so that reflections from the seat do not cause problems at higher frequencies.


The first microphone position is used to calculate the distances to each loudspeaker and subwoofer and set the delays. It is also used to measure and set the trims. So, it is important to place the microphone in the main listening seat for the first measurement.


MultEQ measures the background noise level in the room before playing the test signal from each speaker. For the measurements to be valid, the signal to noise ratio must be above a certain threshold. If it is not, the test signal from that speaker will repeat at a higher level. If the noise in the room happens to be higher during some of the speaker measurements, then the test signals from those speakers will sound louder than the test signals from the other speakers. This does not affect the calculation of trim levels. If the room noise is too high even after the test signals increase in level, then an error message will be displayed warning the user that measurements can not be completed.


After the first position is measured, MultEQ measures other positions in the room around the listening area. These do not necessarily have to be in each individual seat. The idea is to capture as many points around the listening area as possible so that the acoustical problems that affect the quality of sound within that area are minimized.


For example, we recommend taking 3 positions on the couch facing the TV and then 3 more positions about 3 feet in front of the couch and parallel to the first three. Measurements up against the back or side walls should be avoided.


Some loudspeakers have rather problematic responses when measured off-axis (i.e. more than 15° away from the imaginary straight line that points to the listening position). In these systems, measurements taken too far away from the center line will show a reduced high-frequency response that may result in overcorrection and thus overly bright sound. Although it is difficult to predict which type of loudspeaker will have these off-axis problems we have most often observed them in poorly-designed multiple-driver arrays that exhibit very high off-axis lobing. In these situations we recommend a tighter calibration pattern centered around the main listening position and making sure that the mic is not placed in extreme locations and certainly not outside the plane of the front main speakers.

Checking the Results


Once MultEQ calibration is complete the results are stored in the receiver memory.


It is important to activate MultEQ by selecting one of the target curves. This is not performed by default after the calibration is finished and must be selected by the user. In a THX system we recommend using the Flat setting that allows the re-equalization to work as intended. In other systems, we recommend Audyssey for movie playback and Flat for music playback. Unfortunately, the music industry does not have any mixing standards like the movie industry so some music program material may sound better with the Audyssey setting. Front Align also uses the Audyssey process, but it does not apply the filters to the two front loudspeakers. Manual is not an Audyssey setting and does not use MultEQ filters. It is a simple parametric equalizer and will be subject to all the limitations that come with parametric EQ.


Small vs. Large speakers. This is the most commonly discussed topic by MultEQ users. The first thing to understand is that it is not a personal insult to your system if your speakers were detected as Small. It simply means, that in the room they were measured the - 3 dB point was detected at 80 Hz or above. This may happen even if the manufacturer's spec shows that the speaker is capable of playing lower. In fact, there are several benefits at crossing the speakers over at 80 Hz that have to do with power handling and headroom in the bass region that will be handled by the subwoofer amplifier.


The second most common question also relates to Small vs. Large. In the Denon receivers, MultEQ will designate as Large any speaker that has a -3 dB point below 80 Hz. For non-THX speaker systems this is an arbitrary definition that often causes confusion. All it means is that the speaker will not be bass managed unless the user tells it to be. Because Audyssey is not in charge of bass management, we have to abide by the manufacturers' rules and simply report the information found by the measurements to the bass management system.


In situations where the speakers do not play significantly below 80 Hz, an additional step must be taken to make sure that there is no loss of bass information. The user must set the speaker to Small manually so that bass management is performed properly.


Polarity: MultEQ checks the absolute polarity of each loudspeaker and reports it to the user. This is simply a report and does not affect the subsequent calculations in any way. It just asks you to check the wiring to make sure it is connected properly to each speaker. Sometimes we get false alarms. This is usually because the speaker has a driver (usually the mid-range driver) wired out-of-phase intentionally to make up for some problems at the crossover region. If a phase warning is shown, it is not a cause of alarm. Simply check the cables and hit Skip if everything is fine. Again, this does not have any effect on the EQ results.


Subwoofer distance: in many active subwoofers it is not possible to defeat the low-pass filtering. That means that the pre-pro bass management filters will be on top of the low-pass filters inside the subwoofer. The built-in low-filters introduce a delay to the signal coming in (because they have poles). This delay is seen by MultEQ as acoustical delay and is reported in the results. That is why sometimes the subwoofer distance is reported to be longer than the physical measured distance. The setting should not be changed because the blend between the sub and the satellites has been designed based on this time delay.


The design constraints for MultEQ were that it (1) must fit within a small portion of the DSP so that other processes can also run and (2) it must use FIR filters because of the well-known artifacts that IIR filters cause particularly in the time domain response. As it turns out, these two requirements are contradicting. In order for FIR filters to be effective and capable of correcting to low frequencies, they must consist of several thousand coefficients (taps). The problem is that the CPU power required increases with the number of taps, hence the dilemma. What we did at Audyssey was to come up with a different way to partition the frequency axis so that we can use fewer taps and yet not completely give up on low frequency resolution (and therefore low frequency correction). This allows us to take a 512 tap filter that would normally have a resolution of 94 Hz (meaning that any peak or dip narrower than 94 Hz would be missed) and significantly improve its resolving power. The resolution of the filter actually varies continuously with frequency and starts at around 10 Hz. Does this mean that MultEQ can correct an arbitrarily narrow peak or dip at 30 Hz? Of course not. The reality is that in the MultEQ XT version found in receivers, we can correct broader features below 100 Hz better than narrow ones. For example, a lump that is half an octave wide at 50 Hz can be fixed. A narrow dip or peak that is 1/3 or 1/6 octaves wide and centered at 30 Hz will be improved, but not eliminated.


The on-screen display in the receiver has very limited graphics. Therefore it is not possible to really show what the MultEQ correction filter is doing at all frequencies. It appears to only be operating on 9 bands like a parametric equalizer, but this is not the case. What is shown is a very crude approximation to the MultEQ correction and it should not be used to read exact values of cut or boost at the 9 frequencies shown.


Furthermore, there is no display for the subwoofer filter. This doesn't mean that there is no subwoofer correction. It was not added to the display because of interface and memory considerations.


(tips by Chris, CTO, Audyssey Laboratories)
 
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#382 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by daron73m /forum/post/12322541


Hard to say LF response, Im not an audiophile so its tough for me to judge .

You don't need to be an audiophile, just look at the spec sheet for your speakers to find out their low frequency (LF) response. For example: your Epic Series CF-3 speakers go down to about 35Hz; the KSF-C5 centre speaker is spec'd down to 63Hz.


Sanjay
 
#383 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz /forum/post/12301862


"I've never gotten proper LFE readings...always cuts them even if I turn down the sub gain prior to running it."


Have you tried turning it *up* before cal?


I don't know how Audyssey determines a sub's capability, but it may assume yours' is low and decide to "baby" it if it's set low to begin with.

Yeah, If I turn my sub's gain to 10 am on the dial (not much 2nd slash) I would say about 30% of the subs gain, the audsessy resets my AVR's sub volume to -12 all the time, so It probably wants to turn the sub volume down even more. But the avr turns the sub off after -12....



I have to barely use the gain on the sub and set it to 20% power just to not have audyessy turn the sub on the avr to -12 out of a possible -12....
 
#385 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by thehun /forum/post/12298811


Yeah but how do you decide which is correct? You may just prefer the higher read for personal reasons, but it won't make it necessarily "right" though. However eventually it is you who should be "happy" with any settings, so preference might trumps accuracy.


Not sure what you mean...


Let me explain again.


If I take base readings with the Sub calibrated equal to my mains using AVIA and an RS SPL meter, I get a certain readout, with the various low LFE FRQ's of 16hz, 20hz, and 25hz all being within 3 or 4 db's of each other corrected for the SPL meter.

I would assume the above would be correct....since no EQ at all.



Then I run audyessy it reconfigures everything, sets my Sub's volume in the AVR to -12 which is as low is it can go.



I retake readings at 16 hz, 20hz and 25hz ( and various other points).


Compared to each other using audyessy on , 16 hz gets a 6db drop from 20hz and 25 hz gets a boost of 4 dbs or so. This is being compared to itself with audyessy.


If I then take these new audyessy on readings and compare them to my initial base readings with audyessy off and fully calibrated with avia, the overall drop in db's across all 3 of those LFE Frq's are down from 6-10 dbs....


So it must be cutting the FRQ's...


Even if the RS spl reads wrong, it's reading wrong across the board and showing the differences.....so if 100 dbs is really 90 dbs at 20hz then with audyessy on its really 80 dbs...


I hope this clears up what I'm trying to explain.


Thanks for the help and insight.
 
#386 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani /forum/post/12322704


You don't need to be an audiophile, just look at the spec sheet for your speakers to find out their low frequency (LF) response. For example: your Epic Series CF-3 speakers go down to about 35Hz; the KSF-C5 centre speaker is spec'd down to 63Hz.

Sanjay

Assuming that those are reliable numbers, I would suggest that the OP cross the CF-3s at 50-60Hz and the C5 at 80Hz.
 
#387 ·
While running the Audyssey MultEQ XT setup on my new NAD 775, and on the first microphone position, sometimes it gives me message to check the phase of a particular speaker. I checked and it was fine. What's odd is before it moves on to the second speaker, it will give me that message for the first speaker it sent the tone to. The left front. Isn't it impossible for a single speaker to out of phase? I could maybe understand if it gave me the message after testing the second speaker. What would make it think the first speaker is out of phase before testing the second one?

I have a typical setup. Bookshelf speakers about 14" from wall, 6 feet apart and the microphone in middle of room about 9 feet from speakers.
 
#388 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by jedi.night /forum/post/12323205


Not sure what you mean...


Let me explain again.


If I take base readings with the Sub calibrated equal to my mains using AVIA and an RS SPL meter, I get a certain readout, with the various low LFE FRQ's of 16hz, 20hz, and 25hz all being within 3 or 4 db's of each other corrected for the SPL meter.

I would assume the above would be correct....since no EQ at all.



Then I run audyessy it reconfigures everything, sets my Sub's volume in the AVR to -12 which is as low is it can go.



I retake readings at 16 hz, 20hz and 25hz ( and various other points).


Compared to each other using audyessy on , 16 hz gets a 6db drop from 20hz and 25 hz gets a boost of 4 dbs or so. This is being compared to itself with audyessy.


If I then take these new audyessy on readings and compare them to my initial base readings with audyessy off and fully calibrated with avia, the overall drop in db's across all 3 of those LFE Frq's are down from 6-10 dbs....


So it must be cutting the FRQ's...


Even if the RS spl reads wrong, it's reading wrong across the board and showing the differences.....so if 100 dbs is really 90 dbs at 20hz then with audyessy on its really 80 dbs...


I hope this clears up what I'm trying to explain.


Thanks for the help and insight.

A few things worth mentioning:


1) Avia's subwoofer level tones are located in the main channels (not the LFE channel), meaning they're dependant on a) your channel crossovers all being above 80Hz since the tones are 40-80Hz band limited in the individual channels, and b) speaker and sub being in phase since phase issues could create cancellation near the upper range of the 40-80Hz tone (or near the crossover range you've set for the speakers). It might be better for comparison's sake to use the tones in the AVR itself to match speaker to sub and then use Avia later (post-Audyssey) to verify proper speaker/sub interaction and levels.


2) Avia's subwoofer tones are uncorrected for C-weighted response with the Radio Shack meter. I've verified this by decrypting the 5.1 track from the disc and analyzing the resulting component channels produced from the bitstream (as part of a digital comparison I did between Avia and DVE - which no one should ever use to calibrate subwoofer levels because it is digitally incorrect and not band-limited). Assuming flat subwoofer response and volume set to reference, Avia should read 85dB in the speaker and around 83dB in the subwoofer tone (the freq. analysis on averaged C-weighting read 82.6dB if I recall). However, peaks between 40 and 80Hz may throw off overall level readings. If you were setting this so speaker and sub read the same pre-Audyssey, you were likely running your subwoofer 2-3dB hot to begin with.


3) Coarse level readings using 1/6 octave tones and a correction chart don't tell the whole story of in-room response, though they do help analyze peak/null issues. What they don't tell you is how response is in the time domain. Since Audyssey's filtering also alters time (which is what sets it apart from other room correction methods), coarse meter readings may not accurately show the overall effect it has on desired frequency response. For this, you would need a time-averaged RTA to really get a sense of whether MultEQ XT is doing what it is supposed to.


4) The aforementioned work in the time domain is aimed at ensuring that your ears hear the first impulse of sound more than the reflected sound from the room. If you are accustomed to a subwoofer sound muddied by reflected "bounces" of sound, the post-Audyssey result may sound tighter than you're used to. It may also sound subjectively "less" bassy than before, even if the sound is at the same level, since you're reducing ringing/smearing of the audio.


5) Audyssey strives to prevent distortion that can muddy up the sound. I can't say for sure ('cause I'm spitballing on this one - not basing it off anything Audyssey has said), but if your subwoofer moves too much into distortion as you approach 16Hz (which most will), I wonder if Audyssey may cut those lower frequencies slightly to produce an overall less-distorted result across the entire range of the subwoofer. This would be akin to using a subsonic filter to prevent distortion and damage to the subwoofer's driver from over-excursion. Just throwing it out there... but in my experience, Audyssey hasn't significantly reduced subsonics on my system. I'm running a SVS 20-39CS+ off a Samson 1,000w amp with an Onkyo 705 receiver, as well as a Buttkicker LFE off of the Samson's second channel. Before the 705, I was also using an ART-351 EQ to flatten subwoofer response and use as a subsonic filter, though I am now only using it to prevent over-excursion of the Buttkicker because Audyssey did such a great job smoothing out my sub's response. I actually had to turn the Buttkicker's level down a bit after Audyssey.
 
#389 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by jedi.night /forum/post/12323104


Yeah, If I turn my sub's gain to 10 am on the dial (not much 2nd slash) I would say about 30% of the subs gain, the audsessy resets my AVR's sub volume to -12 all the time, so It probably wants to turn the sub volume down even more. But the avr turns the sub off after -12....



I have to barely use the gain on the sub and set it to 20% power just to not have audyessy turn the sub on the avr to -12 out of a possible -12....

I know this is crazy, but have you tried moving your subwoofer? While running a sub at 1/3 gain or less isn't unheard of to level match it (especially in smaller rooms), I wonder if your sub's placement is creating a room-induced peak that is throwing off either Audyssey's equalization or the overall level reading. Is your subwoofer placed close to a wall? Is it corner-loaded? Perhaps with more information, we can help figure out what's going on.
 
#390 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy Anderson /forum/post/12326186


I know this is crazy, but have you tried moving your subwoofer? While running a sub at 1/3 gain or less isn't unheard of to level match it (especially in smaller rooms), I wonder if your sub's placement is creating a room-induced peak that is throwing off either Audyssey's equalization or the overall level reading. Is your subwoofer placed close to a wall? Is it corner-loaded? Perhaps with more information, we can help figure out what's going on.

I hear ya,


I don't have much choice in placement though.


It's a PC-Ultra (2005 model with TV-12) in the Front left corner (so it is corner loaded).


I really don't anywhere else to place it.


I am also using an MBM-12 crossed from 50-80hz and it does a nice job of eliminating any peaks or nulls. It is located behind the couch at a nearfield position.

My NHT Classic 3's are crossed at 80hz in the AVR.
 
#391 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson /forum/post/12323466


Assuming that those are reliable numbers, I would suggest that the OP cross the CF-3s at 50-60Hz and the C5 at 80Hz.

Ok thanks Kal..I emailed klipsch tech guy and he is about right on with your recommendations...heres his email response...


Thanks for writing. The auto-setup of receivers frequently gets this wrong.




I recommend using either 80 Hz, which is the THX recommended frequency, or 20 Hz above the speaker's -3 db down point, whichever is greater. Here is an example from your system




CF3 is down -3 db at 35 Hz per it's spec sheet. We want to cross it over up where the response is still flat so 35 + 20 = 55, we'll use 60 Hz. It can easily handle this frequency but it still will send about 1 ½ octaves to the sub IF this speaker is set to SMALL setting on the setup controls.




KSF-C5 surround is -3 db at 63 Hz. 63 +20 is pretty close to 80 so use that. This cuts 2 octaves of bass from the surrounds, rerouting it to the sub. This cleans up the sound of the surrounds because they won't be trying to play notes they can't handle. It also will give them much more power handling capability because the powerful bass is limited.




The crossover on the sub should be rotated fully clockwise. We do not want it's filter to operate at all, basically we're telling the sub to play whatever the receiver sends you'. The sub will be playing the .1 part of the soundtrack (Low Frequency Effects) and any of the bass that has been stri




I recommend going through all this setup, THEN trigger your auto setup with this portion of speaker setup SWITCHED OFF. Otherwise the first thing the receiver will do is to reset to the previous faulty parameters. You can use the optimizer to set distance, level, and eq, but don't trust it to do the setup. Usually you can toggle which features you wish the optimizer to run. See your receiver's manual for more details.








Michael Colter


Klipsch Heritage and Pro Audio Specialist


Home Audio / Theatre Technical Support
 
#392 ·
I asked this in the Denon AVR-2808ci thread but they suggested I ask here instead:


I have a question for those of you who have configured your system with the audyssey eq system. After I ran the setup i checked my settings and it is crossing my fronts at 120, my rears at 150, and my center at 120, then it says LFE at 80. Does this mean that the sub out is only outputting 0-80hz? and the fronts are outputting 120hz+? If so does that mean there is a hole on my setup between 80-120hz?


Thanks for any help!
 
#393 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sy- /forum/post/12331804


I asked this in the Denon AVR-2808ci thread but they suggested I ask here instead:


I have a question for those of you who have configured your system with the audyssey eq system. After I ran the setup i checked my settings and it is crossing my fronts at 120, my rears at 150, and my center at 120, then it says LFE at 80. Does this mean that the sub out is only outputting 0-80hz? and the fronts are outputting 120hz+? If so does that mean there is a hole on my setup between 80-120hz?


Thanks for any help!

no, the LFE channel ranges from 120hz down and from what I understand that's where the available FRQ's can be used for movie out put. It just means than any LFE on a DVD below 80hz is sent to the sub, but in your case because the mains are crossed much higher, your sub will still get that bass as well.


you can manually adjust the LFE setting up to 120hz if you just want to be sure of it...there isn't much of an LFE signal from 80 to 120hz...and you will be getting all of that bass from the sub anyway because of the response of your mains.
 
#394 ·
what is the best way to calibrate with audyssey where the main listening position is a person on a bed?


would it be bad if i were to set the mic on the bed in 8 different positions or is that just as bad as holding it in your hand which i know one should not do.
 
#397 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by curlyjive /forum/post/12240262


Tonight while doing some listening tests, I could definitely hear sound from the sub at 120 that I could not hear when set at 80. However, the tones that were audible at that setting made voices sound very tubby and unnatural. Now it could be just a poor 5.1 broadcast signal, but is was bad enough for me to change the LFE to 80, because otherwise it was just too distracting.


As far as Audessy as a whole, I can't decide what to do with it. It definitely makes a more seamless soundfield al around. But it does make the high end on my center channel sound was to pronounced. So much so that it is fatiguing. Pixar films are great for testing your front soundstage because they move characters from left to center to right often. With Audessy on, it was painfully obvious that the center stood out and was EQ'd very differently. Maybe I could use Cinema EQ to help with that, but I thought Audessy is supposed to roll off the high end. This is my first AVR with Audessy, but so far it has been a mixed bag. I am going to rerun the setup tonight when there is no background noise and see how it goes. If the EQ on my center could be a little more flat, I would be happy enough to keep it on.


Also, I think I will see if turning my sub to mid volume makes a difference during setup, and then adjust the gain afterward.

I did a 6 posisiotn EQ with my Denon 4308CI and was very pleased, btu did noticed the center to be a bit high on the high, voices were alomst a bit raspy, I enabeld CinemaEQ and it seems to smooth it out a tad, enough to be less obvious.
 
#398 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson /forum/post/12353701


If he is sitting up, follow the usual directions. If he is lying down, ???????

yeah lying down is more of what its going to be 2 pillow head high
 
#399 ·
I set my my TX-SR605 with the Audyssey. It's replacing a Marantz SR6200 because of space issues in the cabinet that my wife wants. In the past I have set up my system with a SPL meter.


Not sure if the difference is the receiver or the audyssey setup but the Marantz was much more musical with two channel audio. Maybe I'm used to the room colorations and the specific timbre of my speakers. Music does seem brighter but I guess I prefer a warmer tone with my music.


For HT I really really like the setup. The setup is definitly clearer/cleaner sounding to my ears and imaging seems much improved. I'm going to have to give it a big A+ in my HT setup but a big C- for my two channel music setup.
 
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