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Genelec - technologie from the 80s?

18K views 178 replies 33 participants last post by  cavu 
#1 ·
I am still looking for an audio upgrade for my rather large dedicated room. Genelec is certainly right at the top of the list of options (not only because of coldmachine's warm recommendation - they really impressed me during a (way too short) demo).


What's holding me back is that - as far as I can see it - their present speakers are all based on technology which was introduced in the late 80s.


e.g. Genelec states that the drivers used in their large 3-way monitors (1" treble, 5" mid cone) were all introduced in 1989 (!). At least the specifications haven't changed a bit since then.


Question is: If I buy some 1037Cs (HT312A) as surrounds and 1034Bs (HT324A) as fronts now do I get besically the same speaker (drivers, amp section) as available since 1989?


In a VERY dynamic market as the speaker market where it is common that a new generation of speakers every 2-3 years per manufacturer significantly improves upon its predecessors (given innovations and technical/material advancements) - how is it possible that Genelec sucessfully sells technology almost 20 years old now? And it sells it in the high-end segment...


Are the drivers really virtually unchanged or are they continuously and silently improved (without changing specs?!)?


Any input would be welcome.
 
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#103 ·
When it comes to ugglyness, there are a variety of speakers. Even my favorite coaxial speakers from Geithain are among those and are considered by some to have the lowest of all WAF. Here's another picture from them :




Point is, it's usually those companies, that know that the professional is indeed interested in the pure results/performance (and price), not the looks (and those huge units are usually not carried around that much, as the smaller units, so transportation feasability is only a small factor to the looks).


When you want controlled directivity for higher listening distances (wafeguides) or a point source like behavior (coax), there are not that many options to how you can build a speaker.


Over here in Europe Dynaudio is a very strong brand, as many people know Denmark is directly next to Germany. However, when looking at the important broadcast studios, hearing to talks among those that do listen to studio Monitors, those ones who have understood and left the path of passive high end speakers, I never hear Dynaudio. I only hear "Klein und Hummel" and "Genelec" and "Geithain", sometimes Mackie for the smaller budget. Anyone from Europe can say something about it, tell me I'm wrong (which I would not mind at all) ?


K+H example (notice the display says "FIR Controlled"

=======================================



Genelec

=======



Notice the similarities in looks....


Of course there are many alternatives, like ATC, KRK, Tannoy, etc, the list of broadcast grade monitors is endless. But once you understood that it's wise to go that route, I would also strongly suggest to ask some of the professionals in other forums as well. Professionals usually test the speakers in their own one studio, and blind A/B them....


Anything else is not a profound information and simply just a persons attitude.


PS: QQQ, love that word play
 
#104 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas /forum/post/12986598


When it comes to ugglyness, there are a variety of speakers. Even my favorite coaxial speakers from Geithain are among those and are considered by some to have the lowest of all WAF. Here's another picture from them :




Point is, it's usually those companies, that know that the professional is indeed interested in the pure results/performance (and price), not the looks (and those huge units are usually not carried around that much, as the smaller units, so transportation feasability is only a small factor to the looks).


When you want controlled directivity for higher listening distances (wafeguides) or a point source like behavior (coax), there are not that many options to how you can build a speaker.


Over here in Europe Dynaudio is a very strong brand, as many people know Denmark is directly next to Germany. However, when looking at the important broadcast studios, hearing to talks among those that do listen to studio Monitors, those ones who have understood and left the path of passive high end speakers, I never hear Dynaudio. I only hear "Klein und Hummel" and "Genelec" and "Geithain", sometimes Mackie for the smaller budget. Anyone from Europe can say something about it, tell me I'm wrong (which I would not mind at all) ?


K+H example (notice the display says "FIR Controlled"

=======================================



Genelec

=======



Notice the similarities in looks....


Of course there are many alternatives, like ATC, KRK, Tannoy, etc, the list of broadcast grade monitors is endless. But once you understood that it's wise to go that route, I would also strongly suggest to ask some of the professionals in other forums as well. Professionals usually test the speakers in their own one studio, and blind A/B them....


Anything else is not a profound information and simply just a persons attitude.


PS: QQQ, love that word play

You are not wrong at all. Others may try to nefariously convey that impression but they are delusional.
 
#106 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX /forum/post/12986704


You guys just like those waveguide mid and highs because they look like a p_ssy and a butt. Talk about butt ugly.



Your insight is staggering. I assume it originates from having your c*ck stuck in one of your own modified blanking plates
 
#110 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX /forum/post/12986704


You guys just like those waveguide mid and highs because they look like a p_ssy and a butt. Talk about butt ugly.


I thought we were looking to create a convincing and exciting visual and audible experience, not showcase hardware.


A classic 2ch system is different, but that's not what the discussion here is about. You absolutely don't want the loudspeakers out in the room from an acoustic or visual standpoint... unless the selling point is more aesthetic than substance.
 
#112 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX /forum/post/12986704


You guys just like those waveguide mid and highs because they look like a p_ssy and a butt. Talk about butt ugly.

Kudos to you - I think you captured the essence and initial design goals of Genelec and Klein+Hummel quite beautifully. I might add that JBL's and Klipsch's horn loaded designs obviously are optimized following the principles of deep throating. (
)
 
#113 ·

Quote:
Will the geitiens play to 130db 2m etu 5.1?

Ney, and I said that already one or two pages back in this thread, the way I interpretate your question, which is not totally specific to the signal. I'm sure they boost some scary short term peaks in that "reagion".


Typically Geithains or Klein und Hummel offer around "real" 112 to 121 db (100Hz to 6KHz), of course depending on frequency and signal measurement method (peak or long term or else). You are well aware that for these "extra SPLs" above 110db to 130db and especially below 50Hz one requires some substantial square-meters of driver/cone surface or stroke levels. Most of these fine studio manufacturer will offer true and very honest FR and SPL measurements on thier websides (as well as directivity) and you see how the SPL drops off with low frequency extension. However, for LFE it is recommended to use dedicated subs anyway. When it comes to the frequency range your Dynaudios will offer in your Evidence setup, I'm sure they (Geithains or Klein and Hummel or Genelec) have no problems to hold up that SPL level. And since the amps are controlling directly the chassis' feedback via the active design, the overall performance is probably still cleaner. However, that is my attitude and believe, as 130db can be risky to the ear, I won't try it, and I for the time being feel well and comfortable with clean THX reference levels. But pls feel free to squeeze 130db @ 20Hz out of your Evidence
I'm sure you got that Dynaudio US service number at hand....

Quote:
then I might as well just go get confessed cause the world is coming to an end.

Pls, never make a promise that you will never fullfill



One word. Many people have tried studio grade monitors in rather clean room environments without any assistance, as said before. Do not wonder, if that does not work. Usually, if you shop ultra high gear, a Klein and Hummel O500C will set you back 12K$ or so (8,5K Euro) or a Geithain 901K at 8K$ (6K Euro) each you will ask the manufacturer to measure the boxes in for you and they offer such services (usually around 500 to 1K$ in Germany). Then these will amaze anyone.....


Nobody in here tells now anybody to buy those sort of high grade speakers. It's a path that could be yours after you have spend 10 years with high end shXX and promises. And Genelec, to come back to the orginal post will for sure not disappoint. They offer that unbelievable SPL and dynamics level. But also within these studio grade world, there is no best, some are simply better than others and it is again your choice
 
#114 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX /forum/post/12988700


Nothing wrong with a neat presentation under the hood.

Peter, if you really believe that, I humbly suggest you re-visit the "small room setup" you showed us (Dynaudio BM12As) and do a little cable management.

That's all.


PS Anybody used Funktion One speakers in any of their setups? My best friend distributes them and he swears up and down for their sound quality... ( http://www.funktion-one.com/products.htm )
 
#116 ·
Funny detail: Some days after I started this thread Genelec changed their global website slogan from "Listen to fine details" to "30 Years of sustainable development" ( http://www.genelec.com/products/?c=Austria )


Guess somebody over there reads AVS after all




btw I am still recovering from an 7x1037C demo I witnessed last week in Salzburg. Probably the best sound coming from this city since Mozart
Simply amazing.
 
#117 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLion /forum/post/13272247


Funny detail: Some days after I started this thread Genelec changed their global website slogan from "Listen to fine details" to "30 Years of sustainable development" ( http://www.genelec.com/products/?c=Austria )


Guess somebody over there reads AVS after all




btw I am still recovering from an 7x1037C demo I witnessed last week in Salzburg. Probably the best sound coming from this city since Mozart
Simply amazing.

Glad you liked them. I used a 324a based 7.1 system. Thats a couple of sizes up from the 1037s, and boy could they shout.


Are you going to settle on Genelec?
 
#118 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by coldmachine /forum/post/13272849


Glad you liked them. I used a 324a based 7.1 system. Thats a couple of sizes up from the 1037s, and boy could they shout.


Are you going to settle on Genelec?

At this point I am pretty sure I will not be able to resist them any longer



My upgrade path will be:


Step 1: Buy 4x 1037C - use them as fronts and back surround, temporarely keep using Klipsch KL650 as surrounds until the new and much larger dedicated room is finished.


Step 2: Buy 3x 1034B (or some successor if available at that point) as fronts - use my 4x 1037C as surrounds -> buy some additional SVS Ultra-13 (4-8 placed at wall midpoints and/or corners should do the trick - I prefer the low frequency extension compared to the HTS6)


Voila - 7 channels of full-active Genelec sound.
 
#120 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLion /forum/post/13277709


At this point I am pretty sure I will not be able to resist them any longer



My upgrade path will be:


Step 1: Buy 4x 1037C - use them as fronts and back surround, temporarely keep using Klipsch KL650 as surrounds until the new and much larger dedicated room is finished.


Step 2: Buy 3x 1034B (or some successor if available at that point) as fronts - use my 4x 1037C as surrounds -> buy some additional SVS Ultra-13 (4-8 placed at wall midpoints and/or corners should do the trick - I prefer the low frequency extension compared to the HTS6)


Voila - 7 channels of full-active Genelec sound.


Sounds cool. Couple of questions


How will you be mounting them?

Have you thought about some Lake processing?

Which PJ and screen will you be using?
 
#121 ·
Peter may well be certifiably insane, but he is right about the dynaudios being far superior to listen to than the Genelecs. The genelecs are a killer choice for loud clean and dynamic, which makes them a wonderful choice if your primary concern is getting reference level very cleanly in a very large theater space. If a high quality commercial cinema is your frame of reference, and clean and accurate and little else is your goal, genelec makes excellent speakers for that. They are tough, well designed, professional products. But they don't sing with music, in my opinion. Relentlessly accurate is a very worthy goal, and it absolutely should be Genelec's goal as a professional speaker maker, but as far as my own personal tastes go, I wouldn't do genelec in a critical music system. They'd kill for a loud rock and roll system where you want to blast yourself silly deaf and do it with great accuracy, and this is why they are great for a clean dynamic theater especially in a large space, but there's also no magic there. Dynaudio's home speakers have a great deal of magic, their pro monitors less so (and a little bit behind in driver technology in my understanding). This is, for ME personally, a huge advantage. However, it may not be for others, especially if you don't care primarily for enjojyment, but rather what the mixing engineer which is unvarnished, unpretty, relentlessly clean and undistorted flat response etc etc. It just depends what you're after. I'm after enjoyment primarily, and primarily with music. Clean loud dynamics is great, but it's not a huge priority IMO. I like my hearing.
 
#122 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles /forum/post/13285638


Peter may well be certifiably insane, but he is right about the dynaudios being far superior to listen to than the Genelecs. The genelecs are a killer choice for loud clean and dynamic, which makes them a wonderful choice if your primary concern is getting reference level very cleanly in a very large theater spaceif a high qualIity commercial cinema is your frame of reference, and clean and accurate and little else is your goal, genelec makes excellent speakers for that. They are tough, well designed, professional products. But they don't sing with music, in my opinion. Relentlessly accurate is a very worthy goal, and it absolutely should be Genelec's goal as a professional speaker maker, but as far as my own personal tastes go, I wouldn't do genelec in a critical music system. They'd kill for a loud rock and roll system where you want to blast yourself silly deaf and do it with great accuracy, and this is why they are great for a clean dynamic theater especially in a large space, but there's also no magic there. Dynaudio's home speakers have a great deal of magic, their pro monitors less so (and a little bit behind in driver technology in my understanding). This is, for ME personally, a huge advantage. However, it may not be for others, especially if you don't care primarily for enjojyment, but rather what the mixing engineer which is unvarnished, unpretty, relentlessly clean and undistorted flat response etc etc. It just depends what you're after. I'm after enjoyment primarily, and primarily with music. Clean loud dynamics is great, but it's not a huge priority IMO. I like my hearing.

Chris, Im trying to understand your post. It just seems to say that Genelec and Dynaudio monitors are too accurate for you. You say they are "relentlessly clean and undistorted flat response etc etc" but not suitable for "critical" use. I think critical listening needs "relentlessly clean and undistorted flat response etc etc".


Also if "high quality commercial cinema is your frame of reference" Genelecs would be a waste of money.


I dont understand how accuracy is at odds with enjoyment. For me they are inextricably linked.
 
#123 ·
Using the Dynaudio Audiophile speakers may be a better surround sound overall than the Dynaudioacoustics. The Genelecs while impressive are tnot class A. Hopefuly Coldmachine will come down to Miami to experience the world's finest projected image in Helene and there he will hear whatr Chris is talking about.

 
#124 ·
That picture is too funny. Lol. Anybody can throw some high end speakers behind a screen and put some heavy equalization on it to get a straight line. Then make the room respond nicely and kill off the mess the speakers produce in the first place (poor directivity, phase control). I do not think that this is the right way to do it, a passive speaker not to begin with. However, maybe the Lion should explain his main goals a little more indepth and then we can further discuss what is right and not. In the end without blind a/b tests this is all just hot air about opinions, nothing else....
 
#126 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas /forum/post/13287363


TAnybody can throw some high end speakers behind a screen and put some heavy equalization on it to get a straight line. Then make the room respond nicely and kill off the mess the speakers produce in the first place (poor directivity, phase control). I

No they cant, or even close to it. Big rooms are very resonant and reverberant. EQ at this level is not so much about the speakers as it is about room correction.
 
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