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#1 ·

This thread is for all discussion related to burn in, IR, and break in questions/concerns/info on flat panel TVs. Please post all discussions on this topic in this thread.


With today's new technologies (2007 and beyond) burn in is nearly non-existence if users use common sense. While still possible, it is highly unlikely if common care is used. A lot of newer TV's (i.e. Pioneer's 8th gen sets) have new technologies that help to also prevent IR. Combined with break in and common care/use, IR can be dramatically reduced if not even eliminated completely.


This thread is for the Plasma and LCD Flat Panel Displays Forum: there is a SEPARATE thread for RPTV


Download Break In DVD (SVCD)

 

New information added on 12/6/12:

 

This was from 2007.

 

"THE REALIZATION of high-quality plasma display panels (PDPs) requires an urgent solution to the image sticking or image retention problems induced in PDP cells after strong sus-tain discharges have been repeatedly produced during a sustain period [1]–[9]. Image retention means temporal image sticking that is easily recoverable through minor treatment, whereas image sticking is permanent and not recoverable even with severe treatment."


As you see, they talk about Image Retention (as we know it) and that is "temporal image sticking" whereas "image sticking" (without a qualifier) is what we here term Burn-in. Now if you read the fix was 100 hours of full white but at a level much higher than we can generate with our TVs. However, what they threw at the tv to get the alleged permanent image sticking (and in the abstract they generated what they believed was permanent image sticking) was 500 hours continuously at an insanely high level (far higher levels than any current plasma can reach even with the smallest of windows). So while a full white screen can get nowhere near the levels what they used for the "fix" by the same token what they used to generate the alleged permanent image sticking is also at a far higher level attainable with our TVs (and this was essentially 3 weeks continuous of the same image (abuse which we could not remotely duplicate in terms of brightness level).

 

http://pde.knu.ac.kr/publication/recovery%20of%20boundary%20image%20sticking%20using%20aging%20discharge%20in%20AC%20plasma%20display%20panel.pdf

 
 
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#377 ·
That's the kind of feedback I'm interested in.


When I researched my present TV over six years ago, burn-in from 4:3 material was a major concern (and they most certainly called it burn-in back then). There was a lot of talk about how the purpose of the gray bars was to prevent uneven burn-in (even burn-in good, uneven burn-in bad). The common wisdom was that, if your contrast wasn't set too high and you varied the material you were watching, this wouldn't really be a concern. However, after five+ years, it became apparent that I had 4:3 burn-in (technically the center of the screen was more burned in than the sides).


In my mind, if you have to watch most of your 4:3 material stretched, you're compromising your viewing habits to fit your TV. I would rather compromise my TV to fit my viewing habits. I refuse to stretch classic movies. I will stretch some 4:3 TV, but I prefer not to.


I doubt we would really watch 33% 4:3 material (probably more like 10-20%), but my point is I don't want to have to worry about it. I can hear my wife now: "We paid all this money for this fancy, dancy TV and now we have to worry about how we watch it?"!


I'll see what others have to say, but I suspect I'll be looking for an LCD. The problem is I'm not sure that LCDs are quite there yet. I may just wait another year and let them work out the motion issues (though it sounds like they're getting close).
 
#378 ·

Quote:
How many people do you see posting that they have burn-in on their plasma anymore? It's b/c it's not a problem unless you completely abuse your T.V., but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't be careful.

I've owned a plasma for just under a year, and even though my particular model is a little more prone to IR than the Pioneers and Pannys (mine is a Hitachi), I have yet to have any IR last more than a few minutes. That isn't to say that burn-in is not a possibility. In this very thread I've seen posts form people who's volume control and internal menu screens have resulted in IR that had lasted days. These people have said that their sets were not in "torch-mode" and that they did not leave any static images on screen for any length of time.


It seems that there are two types of stories in this thread:

ONE: People having marathon video gaming sessions resulting in little to no IR, and...


TWO: people watching a couple hours of something with a static logo or running ticker (or a fricking volume control) that has resulted in IR lasting days.


I guess the truth is in the middle. If you own a plasma, you still have to be careful but not paranoid. If you want to use your display primarily for video games/computer monitor/4x3 material, you might as well just get an LCD.
 
#379 ·
Dear all,


I am new to this forum, my name is Khaled and I am planning to buy a plasma TV LG 42" however I am concerned about burn-in so my main question is;


*Does watching channels with "logos"/playing games using Play station for example affect the TV screen?


Are Plasma TVs designed for DVD movies only and not for video games?



Regards,

Khaled
 
#380 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by mchalebk /forum/post/13902628


This seems like a semantic argument. Isn't the type of burn-in that is caused by a station logo a simple case of extreme uneven phosphor wear? The people at PlasmaSaver.com agree with my definition (the following is from: http://www.plasmasaver.com/burnin.html):




Regardless, even if the terms aren't completely equivalent, isn't that splitting hairs? Is there a percentage of viewing 4:3 material that is safe for a modern plasma TV? Less than 5%? Less than 10%? Less than 20%?

Uneven phospor wear is going to cause areas of your TV to display lighter or darker depending on the wear. Burn in means that an area of your TV will display the same color and image regardless of what is on the TV (i.e. a station logo). You are not "burning in" the side bars, nothing is being displayed there, they are OFF. This causes uneven wear. Burn in causes one (or multiple colors) to be ON for so long, in the same spot, that you will see that color on all screens.


As for what kind of TV to get, I did not mean to imply you buy a different kind of TV, I was implying that you should stretch your material then to fit your screen. Some TVs have a very, very good stretch mode, some are horrible.
 
#381 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by real_khaled /forum/post/13905958


Dear all,


I am new to this forum, my name is Khaled and I am planning to buy a plasma TV LG 42" however I am concerned about burn-in so my main question is;


*Does watching channels with "logos"/playing games using Play station for example affect the TV screen?


Are Plasma TVs designed for DVD movies only and not for video games?



Regards,

Khaled

So far Ive played a few hours straight of Devl May Cry 4 on my PS3, I havent had any problems yet. I am still in my break in period so I do run the disk for 3-4 hours a day.
 
#382 ·

Quote:
I was implying that you should stretch your material then to fit your screen. Some TVs have a very, very good stretch mode, some are horrible.

Stretching classic movies is not an option for most people who love film (and my Toshiba has a pretty good stretch mode). It is almost as bad as watching pan 'n' scan on a 4:3 set. To me, stretching 4:3 material to fill a widescreen TV is saying the TV is more important than what you're watching; it's like saying the canvas, paint and frame are more important than the painting. If you have to stretch classic movies like Casablanca and Miracle on 34th Street to keep from damaging your TV, than I say that the technology for that TV is inadequate.


Of course, LCD TVs have their own set of issues, so I'm not sure where this leaves me. I may buy later this year, I may decide to wait for 1 or 2 more generations.
 
#384 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamR /forum/post/13906207


Uneven phospor wear is going to cause areas of your TV to display lighter or darker depending on the wear. Burn in means that an area of your TV will display the same color and image regardless of what is on the TV (i.e. a station logo). You are not "burning in" the side bars, nothing is being displayed there, they are OFF. This causes uneven wear. Burn in causes one (or multiple colors) to be ON for so long, in the same spot, that you will see that color on all screens.

What? Where did you get this information? This is not what I've read on the subject.


Cheers
 
#385 ·
How many times can you possibly want to watch these movies ? Heck....maybe you should just get a black and white TV as well if you want to view the classics as they were meant to be seen



Not trying to bust on you...but just think HDTV's are mainly meant for HD content. Personally, I have a nice 32 inch CRT in our basement where I watch 4:3 content. We use the HDTV for prime-time viewing, movies and gaming. I really don't care for stretched 4:3 content in many cases either....but I've found I'm really not watching much of it these days anyhow. And I'm guessing I'll watch even less a few years from now.


I'd say if you are really that concerned, then save yourself the worry and go LCD since you won't really be able to enjoy the plasma with that fear in the back of your head. But if you could make other arrangements for your classic viewing, I think plasma offers better PQ for HD content in many cases.




Quote:
Originally Posted by mchalebk /forum/post/13906351


Stretching classic movies is not an option for most people who love film (and my Toshiba has a pretty good stretch mode). It is almost as bad as watching pan 'n' scan on a 4:3 set. To me, stretching 4:3 material to fill a widescreen TV is saying the TV is more important than what you're watching; it's like saying the canvas, paint and frame are more important than the painting. If you have to stretch classic movies like Casablanca and Miracle on 34th Street to keep from damaging your TV, than I say that the technology for that TV is inadequate.


Of course, LCD TVs have their own set of issues, so I'm not sure where this leaves me. I may buy later this year, I may decide to wait for 1 or 2 more generations.
 
#386 ·

Quote:
How many times can you possibly want to watch these movies ?

Do you know how many great films were produced before movies went widescreen? I am a movie lover. I like to watch movies in the proper aspect ratio. In my mind, it is ludicrous to suggest that I take a great work of art such as Casablanca and distort it just because the display hardware isn't what it should be.

Quote:
but just think HDTV's are mainly meant for HD content.

I assume you mean widescreen HD content when you say that, because there are Blu-ray/HD-DVD discs of 1.33:1 movies. Anyway, this is just not true. HDTVs are the new standard for television. It is designed to be backward compatible with all previous formats. They have composite (red/white/yellow) inputs. How much HD content can you watch through those? In a few years, HDTVs will be all that you can buy in a size larger than 30". Does that mean we should quit watching 1.33:1 content? Does that mean we have to desecrate (stretch) art to enjoy it? For that matter, should all content completely fill the screen? Do we need to get rid of those pesky black bars on 2.35:1 movies?


I have been researching flat panel TVs for a couple of months now. I have gone back and forth as to whether I should buy an LCD, consider a plasma or just wait a while. I have read so many comments about what a great image plasma delivers and about how immature LCD technology is when it comes to HDTV. However, it seems like the plasma world thinks that I should think nothing of distorting classic film art because the technology of their TV has a flaw that they pretend isn't a big deal.


I apologize if it seems I'm getting a little worked up over this, but the attitude that widescreen TVs are only about widescreen material astounds me. Movies come in many shapes and sizes. TVs only come in two, and that will soon change. The TV has to be able to adapt to the material. You should not have to compromise your viewing experience because of shortcomings in the design of display hardware.
 
#387 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by mchalebk /forum/post/13907709


Do you know how many great films were produced before movies went widescreen? I am a movie lover. I like to watch movies in the proper aspect ratio. In my mind, it is ludicrous to suggest that I take a great work of art such as Casablanca and distort it just because the display hardware isn't what it should be.



I assume you mean widescreen HD content when you say that, because there are Blu-ray/HD-DVD discs of 1.33:1 movies. Anyway, this is just not true. HDTVs are the new standard for television. It is designed to be backward compatible with all previous formats. They have composite (red/white/yellow) inputs. How much HD content can you watch through those? In a few years, HDTVs will be all that you can buy in a size larger than 30". Does that mean we should quit watching 1.33:1 content? Does that mean we have to desecrate (stretch) art to enjoy it? For that matter, should all content completely fill the screen? Do we need to get rid of those pesky black bars on 2.35:1 movies?


I have been researching flat panel TVs for a couple of months now. I have gone back and forth as to whether I should buy an LCD, consider a plasma or just wait a while. I have read so many comments about what a great image plasma delivers and about how immature LCD technology is when it comes to HDTV. However, it seems like the plasma world thinks that I should think nothing of distorting classic film art because the technology of their TV has a flaw that they pretend isn't a big deal.


I apologize if it seems I'm getting a little worked up over this, but the attitude that widescreen TVs are only about widescreen material astounds me. Movies come in many shapes and sizes. TVs only come in two, and that will soon change. The TV has to be able to adapt to the material. You should not have to compromise your viewing experience because of shortcomings in the design of display hardware.

.. you're in the wrong Forum if everytime you crank-up the plasma & burn-in on 4:3 films/broadcast TV is a concern; pick out the best you can discern from the LCD side and be happy. Besides classic Tarzan, there shouldn't be much of a motion/studder issue.
 
#388 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by daniel'son /forum/post/13908018


.. you're in the wrong Forum if everytime you crank-up the plasma & burn-in on 4:3 films/broadcast TV is a concern; pick out the best you can discern from the LCD side and be happy. Besides classic Tarzan, there shouldn't be much of a motion/studder issue.

I was in the right forum. I have read many articles and threads where people claim that burn-in (or uneven phosphor wear) is not really an issue anymore with plasma TVs. It seemed to me that this forum was the right place to find out if this is true.


What I found is that it is indeed a real issue if you want to watch more than a nominal amount of 4:3 material.


It's not like I watch 4:3 material all the time. My wife and I watch plenty of modern movies. And we were refusing to watch pan 'n' scan movies on our old 26" 4x3 TV, the same way we refuse to watch stretched images of 1.33:1 films now. However, we watch enough 4:3 material that my present TV (CRT-based RPTV) has uneven phosphor wear from the gray bars and I don't want to have to worry about it with my next one. That's why I'm in this forum. To figure this out.


It looks like I got my answer, which is that plasma is only a viable option if you watch mostly 16x9 material, or you don't plan to own the TV long enough for the uneven phosphor wear to become an issue. Neither of these will work for me, so I believe I have my answer.
 
#390 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamR /forum/post/13909369


On this forum.


This assuming the side bars are set to black, i.e. off. Not grey. If they are grey (or anything else other then black) yes you will get burn in/IR.

Sorry, I thought you said that uneven wear and burn-in are not related.
 
#391 ·
Personally, I think it's basically impossible for anybody to say how 2008 plasmas are going to hold up 5 years from now....and exactly how much of an issue uneven wear/burn-in might be.


I think it's probably pretty logical to think it's improved alot since 5 years ago....and probably isn't nearly the problem that it used to be. But as a plasma owner, it's still a concern in the back of my head and I really don't want to take chances with it.


Not sure the answer is as cut and dry as you might want it.


The one answer I am sure of though is that LCD ALWAYS has motion problems, virtually with every single LCD with certain content.


So for me, I decided I'd take my chances and use a little caution with a plasma rather than have an LCD that I knew for a fact I was going to be bothered with the picture with issues like blurring, ghosting, uneven lighting ,etc. Those are issues you know you'll get for sure.


So I really think you have trade-offs with either technology. With LCD, you might get a little better feeling about being able to watch any type of content, but you also get other problems with the picture that can't really be controlled. Or with plasma, you can control your viewing and have better PQ.


I opted for the technology that I could control more easily. Sure, I might have to sacrifice a little bit on some aspect ratios, but at least I've got a nice, rich picture without blurred edges all the time.


Point is, there are trade-offs with both technologies.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mchalebk /forum/post/13908994


I was in the right forum. I have read many articles and threads where people claim that burn-in (or uneven phosphor wear) is not really an issue anymore with plasma TVs. It seemed to me that this forum was the right place to find out if this is true.


What I found is that it is indeed a real issue if you want to watch more than a nominal amount of 4:3 material.


It's not like I watch 4:3 material all the time. My wife and I watch plenty of modern movies. And we were refusing to watch pan 'n' scan movies on our old 26" 4x3 TV, the same way we refuse to watch stretched images of 1.33:1 films now. However, we watch enough 4:3 material that my present TV (CRT-based RPTV) has uneven phosphor wear from the gray bars and I don't want to have to worry about it with my next one. That's why I'm in this forum. To figure this out.


It looks like I got my answer, which is that plasma is only a viable option if you watch mostly 16x9 material, or you don't plan to own the TV long enough for the uneven phosphor wear to become an issue. Neither of these will work for me, so I believe I have my answer.
 
#392 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamR /forum/post/13909369


On this forum.


This assuming the side bars are set to black, i.e. off. Not grey. If they are grey (or anything else other then black) yes you will get burn in/IR.

William, I'm confused. I thought that's what the whole point of grey bars was for - to also drive the side bars to some degree when watching 4:3 content. I thought that leaving them as black was what would cause uneven wear.
 
#393 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyptony /forum/post/13911468


William, I'm confused. I thought that's what the whole point of grey bars was for - to also drive the side bars to some degree when watching 4:3 content. I thought that leaving them as black was what would cause uneven wear.

.. the 1150hd defaults as grey out of the box, so i'm sure that's where it should remain; you can go into the service menu and change to black, but probably shouldn't.
 
#394 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyptony /forum/post/13911468


William, I'm confused. I thought that's what the whole point of grey bars was for - to also drive the side bars to some degree when watching 4:3 content. I thought that leaving them as black was what would cause uneven wear.

same here, i think something is missing .


i may get a Plasma Samsung soon, i´m looking for teh recommend view settings i read some user NICE or something but i can´t find it.

Anyone?
 
#395 ·
My understanding is that using grey sidebars helps prevent uneven wear/burn-in since the phosphors need to "fire"....I think that is the whole point of the grey sidebars. Set them to grey and it's almost like your using the whole screen.


When they are set to black, you aren't using the phosphors so that causes the uneven aging.


Personally, I generally like stretching. Kinda get used to it after awhile and I generally just hate seeing "blank" real estate on the screen.


Quote:
Originally Posted by daniel'son /forum/post/13911717


.. the 1150hd defaults as grey out of the box, so i'm sure that's where it should remain; you can go into the service menu and change to black, but probably shouldn't.
 
#396 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by briansemerick /forum/post/13901187


if you're considering a Pioneer, burn in is almost non-existent unless you're using it for CNN 24/7.


Panasonic is really good about it now too, i think almost the extent that Pio is.


point being, you get what you pay for. if you're looking at low-end stuff, it might be a concern. anything decent and it's not a problem.

WRONG! I have a Pioneer 4270 that I posted here and has bURN iN , oops I mean IR (but it hasn't gone away after 3 weeks) oh and by the way mine is in the shop for the second time in 14 months


So with the Pio you get the best in PQ , but it's still man made and anything can happen
 
#397 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyptony /forum/post/13911468


William, I'm confused. I thought that's what the whole point of grey bars was for - to also drive the side bars to some degree when watching 4:3 content. I thought that leaving them as black was what would cause uneven wear.

That is the catch. The grey bars definitely help big time to prevent uneven phosphor wear. But then you run the risk of IR with grey bars.


If you use black, you don't get IR but then you suffer from uneven wear.


Personally I prefer the grey as the lesser of two evils because I have no fears of IR on my set. However, the grey bars are distracting so I just use the stretch mode for anything. However, with blu-ray, HD-DVDs, and HD programming what I have to stretch is getting less and less.
 
#398 ·

Quote:
The one answer I am sure of though is that LCD ALWAYS has motion problems, virtually with every single LCD with certain content.


So for me, I decided I'd take my chances and use a little caution with a plasma rather than have an LCD that I knew for a fact I was going to be bothered with the picture with issues like blurring, ghosting, uneven lighting ,etc. Those are issues you know you'll get for sure.

LCD sets have made immense strides, so I'm not sure that this is a true statement with some of the latest sets. I've been doing a lot of research on this, but I admit it hasn't gotten to the point where I'm actually comparing sets. It seems like a lot of these typical LCD issues are not much of a problem with some of the latest designs. However, if I find that they haven't dealt with the motion issues well enough for my taste, I'll probably just live with my present TV for another year.
 
#399 ·
And, yes, the purpose of the gray (vs. black) bars is to attempt to even out the phosphor wear while watching 4x3 material. My RPTV uses the gray bars. They may have delayed the process somewhat, but I did finally end up with noticeable uneven phosphor wear. I'm sure it would have been worse with black bars, but the gray bars did not prevent it.
 
#400 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyptony /forum/post/13911468


William, I'm confused. I thought that's what the whole point of grey bars was for - to also drive the side bars to some degree when watching 4:3 content. I thought that leaving them as black was what would cause uneven wear.

Follow your owners manual. The manual for my Pio 5080 says use gray bars when not watching full screen content to prevent I/R. I can hardly believe they would knowingly print false info.
 
#401 ·
The only sets I really looked at for LCD's were the 120HZ Sammy and 120HZ Sony XBR4. Still saw the motion problems on those sets.


Didn't really notice it much in the stores initially because they generally seem to have those sets running blu-ray feeds. But once I was able to see them running "normal" TV feeds in some more controlled environments, I was totally unimpressed.


Don't get me wrong....I really, really wanted an LCD set because I also did not like the idea of worrying about stretching all the time and/or worrying about burn-in.


But I just couldn't convince myself to pull the trigger as I continually found myself liking the plasma pictures better and finding that plasmas were alot cheaper as the Sammy and Sony 52 inch 120HZ sets were going to run me about $700 more than the 50 inch plasma I settled on.


But I'm a heavy sports watcher...so maybe I was just paying more attention to it than you might and LCD might suit you just fine if you're really not too picky about the motion.


So I watch HD as much as possible and stetch what I can. Forunately, also have a 32 inch CRT in the basement that I can watch SD and 4:3 content on if I choose to.....so I sorta feel like I'm able to enjoy the best of both worlds.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mchalebk /forum/post/13914238


LCD sets have made immense strides, so I'm not sure that this is a true statement with some of the latest sets. I've been doing a lot of research on this, but I admit it hasn't gotten to the point where I'm actually comparing sets. It seems like a lot of these typical LCD issues are not much of a problem with some of the latest designs. However, if I find that they haven't dealt with the motion issues well enough for my taste, I'll probably just live with my presnt TV for another year.
 
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