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*Official* Denon AVR 2309CI/889 Thread

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#1 ·
Hi All,


Since I will be taking delivery of a Denon AVR 2309CI unit this Friday, I thought that I would get this thread started. This post is a placeholder, so that I can post my initial thoughts and, later, a review of the unit, as well as answer any questions.


My original intent was to purchase an 889 model, as I did not feel that I needed the extra features that the 2309 model offered. However, when I found the 2309 on Amazon in stock, with overnight shipping a mere $4, I had to pull the trigger on it.


This unit will be replacing a Denon AVR 2805. I like my 2805 a lot, but with it not having any HDMI connections, it became increasingly frustrating to use. My wife will love the volume leveling features, as she is always complaining about the volume of commercials vs the shows themselves.


I will be hooking up 2 DirecTV HR-20s, an Oppo 981 DVD player, a PS3, an Xbox 360, and a Wii to the system, which will feed into my Samsung DLP 7178. My current plan is to feed the Xbox 360 & Wii thru component connections (neither has HDMI connections) and the other 4 via HDMI.


Look for my initial impressions either Friday night or Sunday (I have an all-day commitment on Saturday
)...


Don
 
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#102 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig /forum/post/14476840


You'd think that, but I guess it's not true because most lower-end receivers don't allow video processing on digital video, it's only the analog->HDMI conversion where they let you do it. I've heard it's an HDCP issue, but who knows...


I'm sure you've read this article:
http://hometheatermag.com/receivers/608recfeat/


In the 3808ci section, they say: "The AVR-3808CI is one of only a few AVRs in this roundup that will let you apply video processing to incoming HDMI signals."


In the Sony section: "Sony seems to be incorporating the same stance as most of the other companies by not allowing video processing of incoming HDMI signals."


Even high-end models in that roundup, like the RX-V3800 and Sony 4300ES don't offer video processing of digital video.



And if you dig into the Denon manuals, there is cryptic information about "analog to HDMI" conversion but never a mention of digital processing, until you get to the 3808ci manual...

I still think it's just some cost issue - both new HK do full VP, analog or digital, to 1080p, form *any* source.


The HDCP limitation I'm aware of is that you cannot pass 1080p over component.
 
#103 ·
Anyone that's still interested in the $749 price at J&R it was still available today as I ordered a few hours ago. Keep in mind that the guy's in NY so he's in EST time zone. Completely slipped my mind last night.


Oh, and it's no longer a preorder price as they currently have them in stock. I didn't know this until Jacques informed me.
 
#106 ·
I skimmed this thread and I don't think all of this was covered so here are some requests for owners when they get a chance:


Test/look for: DTS bomb (you've seen that subject around I'm sure), LFE bug (probably not.)


Video: Test to make sure that video pass through is not negatively affected in any way. No BTB bug. No white crush, no black crush, no clipping, etc.


^^ All these sorts of things.
 
#107 ·
Except for the DTS-MA thing (which didn't exist), Denon got all of those things correct on their very first HDMI models (3806/2807/2307) so I don't think they'd suddenly start screwing up now. HDMI-equipped Denons have never had the LFE bug or video clipping, so I think we're safe, although it's always nice to confirm with a test pattern. Somebody has already confirmed with DVE that the 1909 doesn't crush/clip video information, so I don't think the 2309 will have a problem.
 
#109 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig /forum/post/14492310


Except for the DTS-MA thing (which didn't exist), Denon got all of those things correct on their very first HDMI models (3806/2807/2307) so I don't think they'd suddenly start screwing up now. HDMI-equipped Denons have never had the LFE bug or video clipping, so I think we're safe, although it's always nice to confirm with a test pattern. Somebody has already confirmed with DVE that the 1909 doesn't crush/clip video information, so I don't think the 2309 will have a problem.

Smoeone already reported seeing crushed blacks, IIRC in the 1909 thread - what's up with him?
 
#111 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig /forum/post/14476840


You'd think that, but I guess it's not true because most lower-end receivers don't allow video processing on digital video, it's only the analog->HDMI conversion where they let you do it. I've heard it's an HDCP issue, but who knows...


I'm sure you've read this article:
http://hometheatermag.com/receivers/608recfeat/


In the 3808ci section, they say: "The AVR-3808CI is one of only a few AVRs in this roundup that will let you apply video processing to incoming HDMI signals."


In the Sony section: "Sony seems to be incorporating the same stance as most of the other companies by not allowing video processing of incoming HDMI signals."


Even high-end models in that roundup, like the RX-V3800 and Sony 4300ES don't offer video processing of digital video.



And if you dig into the Denon manuals, there is cryptic information about "analog to HDMI" conversion but never a mention of digital processing, until you get to the 3808ci manual...

Does this imply that once TV signals go fully Digital, all video-processing and/or scaling of Cabletv/Sat signals on Denon 2809/889 and below are going to stop?


I use a comcast hdtv receiver which is normally connected via component to my Sony Bravia, and by optical audio cableto my 2802. I was hoping to connect it via hdmi to the 988, and later to the 989, but if there is not going to be any video processing/scaling, I might consider sticking to the present combination.


On a related note, unless I'm missing something, I have not found hdmi==>receiver processing of cable tv audio signals to be anything special By the way, can Cable + Sat tv broadcast any audio signals that are more advanced than the standard Dolby Digital/DTS ones? So far, those are the ones I seem to get off my CATV experience: I have never seen any indication that the HD audio formats (Dolby True Hd and DTS Master Audio) are included in the signals I get from my cable service, but then again, I have never used and hdmi receiver before, so I cannot conclusively tell. Is this a mistaken idea?
 
#113 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by sahmen /forum/post/14494411


By the way, can Cable + Sat tv broadcast any audio signals that are more advanced than the standard Dolby Digital/DTS ones? So far, those are the ones I seem to get off my CATV experience: I have never seen any indication that the HD audio formats (Dolby True Hd and DTS Master Audio) are included in the signals I get from my cable service, but then again, I have never used and hdmi receiver before, so I cannot conclusively tell. Is this a mistaken idea?

HD audio formats (Dolby True Hd and DTS Master Audio) are only available from Blu-ray or HD-DVD media. HD broadcasts use Dolby Digital 5.1.
 
#114 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by sahmen /forum/post/14494411


Does this imply that once TV signals go fully Digital, all video-processing and/or scaling of Cabletv/Sat signals on Denon 2809/889 and below are going to stop?

No. Digital (a.k.a. compressed crap
) has nothing to do with HD by default and I have a strong feeling that it is quite some years away when all channels will come in 1080p to match your panel's native resolution thus eliminate the need for scaling.
 
#115 ·
My 2309 showed up today



Anyone that has seen my posts knows that I'm a total noob but I'll throw out some early impressions along with some dumb questions..


Nice lookin reciever, seems heavy and well built. Was a little underwelmed with the text on the reciever and extremely underwelmed by the setup GUI, I would feel ever worse if I got the 2909 like I wanted!


Audessy setup seemed quick and painless..


Ok, dumb questions...... I don't have rear speakers so am intending on running a 3.1 setup, front R/L, Center and Sub.


What is the best surround mode for 3.1 setup?


I was expecting to see Dolby digital or one of the fancy new settings but didn't see those options available?


I only looked at a DVD which I have connected through hdmi and it originaly set the audio to Stereo, when I turned the volumne up I had to turn it WAY up to about -10 dB to get a decsent volume (just like gamer2600), is this normal? Same volume on the FM radio and that's as far as I've gotter.....


I'll post more tomorrow after I've really played with it but wanted to get a post out
 
#116 ·
You need to make sure to tell the Denon in setup (if Audyssey didn't do it for you) that you are running 3.1 (i.e. make sure it says "NO" for SURR and SURR.BACK in the setup).


Then, just select whatever sound mode you want. The Denon will automatically downmix the input signal to your 3.1 setup. There is no optimal mode, just whatever sounds best to you.


I run 3.1 with my 2307ci, works fine this way. I usually just leave it in "Standard" mode for most things, i.e. Dolby Digital for Dolby Digital, DTS for DTS, whatever. I alternate between the various matrixing modes for 2-channel content depending on source. For most TV watching I use Pro Logic Cinema mode, sometimes Music mode, sometimes I hit the 5/7CH STEREO mode.
 
#117 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsprague /forum/post/14495718


Nice lookin reciever, seems heavy and well built. Was a little underwelmed with the text on the reciever and extremely underwelmed by the setup GUI, I would feel ever worse if I got the 2909 like I wanted!

Icon/Text GUI versus Graphic GUI achieves the same thing. It's not like you must constantly view the menu, so why would this bother you? Only requirement I have is being able to configuration the Denon receiver as needed.


BTW you meant the 2809.
 
#120 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray /forum/post/14494484


Component video will exist for a long time...is that what you are asking?


No I was thinking more of the digital tv signal itself that is fed to the receiver via hdmi, and the receiver's ability to process that digital signal..... The question was provoked by the following remark:

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig /forum/post/14473835


I'm almost 100% sure that the 2309 is incapable of processing a digital video signal at all. I think only the 3808ci and up lets you do that.

This comment seemed to raise the question as to whether the receivers within the range of 2xxx/9xx and below were capable of doing any processing or scaling of digital tv video signals at all--Unless I'm misunderstanding something about the transfer of digital tv video signals?
 
#121 ·
Played with my 2309 some more last night, got the sub up to a descent level using the manual setup. I'm noob but it seems to do a very good job with the soundstage across my front 3 speakers (I'm only running a 3.1 setup).


I've got a couple questions I'll prob have to post in the speaker area but I'll give a shot here.


I'm still listening at really high levels do get descent volumne, about -5 dB, does this sound like a red flag to anyone?


My two front speakers a little older JBL floor standing speakers, the 2309 set them to large, I set the crossover freq for the sub at 80 hz. It also let's me set a crossover freq for the fronts and the center, currently set to 60 hz, should I change that to 80 hz or is it good to have some overlap. I've got a nice sub, mfw-15 so want that to handle as much of the bass if possible.


Other strange thing which I'm sure I'll work out, the dvd keeps defaulting to Stereo for the surround mode and then I manually change it.. What do I do to keep it at a default dolby digital setting? I'm using an hdmi dvd player (not blu ray or hddvd).


Thanks
 
#122 ·

Quote:
I'm still listening at really high levels do get descent volumne, about -5 dB, does this sound like a red flag to anyone?


My two front speakers a little older JBL floor standing speakers, the 2309 set them to large, I set the crossover freq for the sub at 80 hz. It also let's me set a crossover freq for the fronts and the center, currently set to 60 hz, should I change that to 80 hz or is it good to have some overlap. I've got a nice sub, mfw-15 so want that to handle as much of the bass if possible.

If you've got older, inefficient speakers, you may need to crank the volume more to get the sound level you need. On my setup, -20 to -25 is blasting for music, I don't think I would ever go to anything higher than -10.... but on HD movies, I'm regularly at -10. So it's not necessarily anything to be alarmed about.


You should set the sub's crossover higher, at 120Hz -- this is a high-pass filter for the LFE track, if you set it too low you will lose a little LFE info (check out the audyssey thread and read about sub settings). This is separate from the speaker crossovers, they don't necessarily need to match up.


For your front towers, you have three options with the Denon:


1. Set them to Large, set SUB to LFE only -- the towers will play full range, and the Sub will get LFE signals only (plus crossed-over low frequencies from your center which I assume is set to SMALL).


2. Set them to Large, set SUB to LFE+MAIN. The towers will play full range, the sub will get LFE and ALSO will "double up" the low-end bass below the crossover frequency. For example if you set fronts to LARGE, sub to LFE+MAIN, and crossover the fronts at 60Hz, the fronts will play everything (20Hz-20kHz), the Sub will play LFE, and the sub will also double up the bass on the fronts below 60Hz.


3. Set your fronts to SMALL, cross them over at 60Hz or 80Hz, and just let your nice sub do all the heavy lifting. This will take some of the load off your receiver, since the low-frequencies will be driven by the sub's amp, and you may find this helps with the volume issue as the receiver doesn't have to work so hard.


Quote:
Other strange thing which I'm sure I'll work out, the dvd keeps defaulting to Stereo for the surround mode and then I manually change it.. What do I do to keep it at a default dolby digital setting? I'm using an hdmi dvd player (not blu ray or hddvd).

First, make sure that "AUTO SURROUND" is set to yes in the setup of the Denon, so it remembers your settings.


But, this sounds more like a DVD player settings issue. I bet you are sending two-channel and the Denon wants to go to Stereo. Make sure in your DVD player (I assume you are using HDMI for audio and video, right?) that the HDMI audio settings are set to "bitstream" or something like that.


One way to check is to look at the display of your 2309 and see what channels you are receiving. Play a normal DVD that you know has a 5.1 soundtrack (either DD or DTS, whatever) and select that soundtrack, play the DVD, and look at your display -- on the left side it shows what input channels you are getting, on the left it shows the channels it is outputting.


If only two squares are lit up on the left, then the Denon is only receiving two-channel info and you need to change a setting on your DVD player.


You can also press the "STATUS" button, on the left below the display, and it will tell you what you are getting. If it says "PCM 44.1 kHz" then you are getting 2-channel from the DVD player. It should say "DOLBY DIGITAL 3/2/.1" or something similar for a 5.1 soundtrack.
 
#124 ·
definitely do some reading on some of the AVR and audio FAQ's stickied at the top of this forum and other audio forums. Once you gain an understanding of how multi-channel audio works, what LFE and crossovers are, etc. it will make much more sense when you are trying to set up your system. Also read up in the Audyssey thread, this will help give you some clarity about what Audyssey is actually doing and how to correctly manage its settings.


As an aside, I would recommend that, if you have a nice sub, you set all of your speakers to "small". Cross over at 60 or 80Hz (try em both and see which sounds better) and let the sub do the grunt work down low.
 
#125 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig /forum/post/14501467


definitely do some reading on some of the AVR and audio FAQ's stickied at the top of this forum and other audio forums. Once you gain an understanding of how multi-channel audio works, what LFE and crossovers are, etc. it will make much more sense when you are trying to set up your system. Also read up in the Audyssey thread, this will help give you some clarity about what Audyssey is actually doing and how to correctly manage its settings.


As an aside, I would recommend that, if you have a nice sub, you set all of your speakers to "small". Cross over at 60 or 80Hz (try em both and see which sounds better) and let the sub do the grunt work down low.

For this, are you referring to the cross over of the speakers? If yes, would you agree that the cross over for the sub should be at 120Hz?


If I've already run auto setup and then go into manual and change some of the speaker settings, will it only effect the settings that I change, or does it cause the entire auto setup to be disregarded? I had a Yamaha and with that if you changed any manual setting, the auto settings didn't hold any more.


One thing that's a bit of a pain with the setup is that if you run auto setup a second time, you have to go back in and reselect some of the manual settings (e.g., the dynamic volume setting). Is there any way to make this setting hold?
 
#126 ·
I was talking about the speaker crossovers, not the LFE high-pass (which should be left at 120Hz from what I understand). Yes, you can alter the crossovers after Audyssey runs and it will still use the audyssey eq filters, please check out the Audyssey thread, I am just paraphrasing from what I have read there, I am no expert.... my 2307ci doesn't even have Audyssey!
 
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