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FAQ: DVD Recorders and the Analog to Digital Transition

108K views 219 replies 80 participants last post by  Church AV Guy 
#1 ·
NOTE: This material applies only to the USA. If you are in Canada, some of this material may affect you peripherally. If you are elsewhere in the world, you can safely ignore what follows.

Updated: 30 April 2010

1. What's this analog shutdown I've been hearing about?


As a result of legislation of the US Congress, all full-power analog over-the-air (OTA) broadcast TV ended on June 12, 2009, leaving only the digital broadcasts that most stations had also been sending already. (Some stations had already shut down their analog transmitters before this.) Low-power stations and translators were not subject to this deadline. The FCC is pushing those stations to convert also, as soon as feasable, but has not announced any deadlines at this writing.

2. Does this mean that analog cable is going to shut down, too?


The congressional mandate applies only to OTA broadcasts. Cable companies are free to convert their analog channels to digital whenever they choose, except for local broadcast stations that have chosen "must carry" status and therefore foregone any compensation by cable companies. The Federal Communications Commission (FCC) ruled in September 2007 that cable companies must provide those channels in analog form through June 12, 2012. I suppose that other local broadcast channels, that have negotiated compensation for carriage by cable companies, will continue to negotiate for carriage in analog form.


However, cable companies want to convert their analog channels to digital sooner or later, because they can send more digital channels than analog in the same bandwidth. Also, with digital cable it's easier to block unauthorized access. Comcast is now converting its "extended basic" customers from analog to digital. Only the "limited basic" channels will remain in analog form, including mainly the local OTA broadcast stations. Other cable companies will probably do something similar during the next few years.

3. How does all this affect DVD recorders?


The Federal Communications Commission (FCC) mandated that as of March 1, 2007, all devices made or imported to the USA, that can receive OTA broadcasts, must include digital (ATSC) tuners. Previously, practically all DVD recorders sold in the USA had only analog (NTSC) tuners.


In April 2007, new DVD recorders began to appear on dealers' shelves, with both NTSC and ATSC tuners. All models seen so far also have QAM (digital cable) tuners. See other threads in this forum for discussion about specific models. Meanwhile, older models with only NTSC tuners have disappeared from the marketplace, as dealers sold out their stock. These models are now available only through after-market sources such as eBay.


Also, some DVD recorders have now appeared, that have no tuner at all. They can record only from other devices with tuners (e.g. cable STBs or DVRs, or standalone ATSC tuners for OTA broadcasts) via their line inputs.

4. Does this mean that my old DVD recorder (or VCR) is going to be useless after analog shutdown?


There are now few OTA analog (NTSC) broadcasts for it to tune to, only whatever low-power stations or translators operate in your area. As your cable company shuts down analog channels, you will no longer be able to tune those, either. However, you can still record from an external digital tuner via the recorder's line inputs. For example, you can use a composite-video or S-video connection from a cable set top box or DVR, or a standalone ATSC tuner for OTA broadcasts. People have reported success in using a Panasonic DVD recorder with an "infrared (IR) blaster" to control the Zenith DTT900 digital-to-analog converter box . The Zenith DTT901 works the same way. The Channel Master CM-7000 converter box can also be controlled this way, using a Pioneer cable box code.

5. My DVD recorder has the TV Guide On Screen (TVGOS) feature. How does the analog shutdown affect TVGOS?


TVGOS receives its electronic program guide (EPG) data via a signal embedded in the OTA broadcast signal of stations which have contracted with Macrovision (the current owner of TVGOS) to provide this service. In preparation for the OTA digital transition, Macrovision developed a new version of TVGOS which uses digital (ATSC) instead of analog (NTSC) broadcast signals. It appears that most areas have digital TVGOS service as of November 2009, but some areas have lost it, and some others have had "teething problems" with the new service.


So far, no DVD recorders with ATSC tuners include the TVGOS feature. All DVD recorders with TVGOS have only NTSC tuners. Nevertheless, there are two "loopholes" by which they may be able to receive digital TVGOS indirectly.


First, for people who get TV via analog cable, Macrovision is working with cable TV providers to enable them to convert digital TVGOS data (received from a broadcast station in their area), to analog form for insertion into one of their remaining analog cable channels. This should allow analog-only devices with TVGOS to function as before, although possibly using a different TVGOS host channel. It requires that your cable company install the conversion and insertion equipment.


Second, for people who get TV OTA, the Dish TR-40, DTVPal, DTVPal Plus coupon eligible converter boxes (CECBs), the Dish DTVPal DVR and the ARTEC T3APR-T(TVG) CECB have a mode which converts digital TVGOS from an OTA broadcast into the analog version, for use with analog-only devices with TVGOS. This uses a different data stream (SCTE 127) in the digital OTA signal, than the one (TVG1) used by digital devices with TVGOS. Note that these devices can receive only digital OTA (ATSC) signals, not digital cable (QAM) signals. Therefore they are not a solution for people with digital-only cable service.

6. Why are there so few DVD recorders with hard disks (HDD) on sale now?


Older models with only NTSC tuners have disappeared from normal retail channels as pre March 1, 2007 stock sold out. As of May 2010, only seven new models with ATSC/QAM tuners and HDD have appeared or are forthcoming:

Philips DVDR3575H/37
Philips DVDR3576H/37
Polaroid DRA-01601A
Magnavox H2080MW8
Magnavox H2160MW9
Magnavox H2160MW9A (a slight update to the preceding unit)
Magnavox MDR513H (another slight update)


The Philips and Magnavox units share a common FAQ/discussion thread, linked to the names above. The Polaroid has its own thread.

Update, November 2009: The only model that is currently available is the Magnavox H2160MW9A. See section 10 of the first post of the thread linked above for sources.

Update, May 2010: The Magnavox H2160MW9A has gone on clearance sale, and is apparently going to be replaced by a new model, the MDR513H. This has a larger HDD (320GB) and will reportedly be available in June. See the Philips/Magnavox FAQ/discussion thread for the latest information.


Other companies (Panasonic, Toshiba, and Pioneer, at least) have no plans for such units. Companies that have given reasons for this have indicated poor sales of the previous NTSC-only units. This is in line with the common availability in the USA of HDD DVRs leased by cable and satellite TV providers. These units have relatively low monthly fees in contrast to the high up-front cost of an HDD/DVD recorder, and can record encrypted channels that DVD recorders cannot (at least not directly). Most people apparently mainly want to be able to time-shift programs by recording them temporarily, and have limited interest in archiving programs on DVD.


This situation may change in the future as a result of the FCC mandate discussed in the next section.


Note that HDD/DVD recorders for analog and/or digital TV are widely available outside the USA, e.g. in Europe, Japan and Australia, which do not have such a high penetration of proprietary leased cable and satellite equipment. Some of these are available in the USA through gray-market import channels, from dealers who specialize in multisystem (PAL/SECAM/NTSC) analog video equipment.


Some people have speculated that digital-rights management (DRM) issues are a cause of the lack of HDD/DVD recorders. That is, these units make it too easy to make high-quality recordings of copyrighted programs, so content providers have pressured consumer-electronics manufacturers to stop selling them in the USA.

7. Which digital cable channels can I record with QAM-capable recorders?


Current QAM-capable recorders can tune only those digital channels that a cable company does not encrypt (sometimes called "clear QAM"). With most cable companies, this currently means only the HD versions of the local broadcast channels (often not even all of those), plus perhaps a few odds and ends. You must tune other channels with a cable set top box and record them via a line input on the recorder. Many people expect that this will continue to be the case after the extended-basic channels are converted to digital, although this is not clear yet. Again, this is for current recorders; for possible future recorders, see below.


The FCC has mandated that as of July 1, 2007, new cable set top boxes and recorders must decouple the access and authorization functions so that third party manufacturers can sell STBs and DVRs that can be used with any cable company. These devices would use something like CableCard 2.0 (which has been renamed as "Tru2way" technology) or downloadable software to authorize and decrypt channels as necessary. So far the only Tru2way devices are some Panasonic TVs, but there may be significant availability of Tru2way service from cable companies (particularly Comcast) in 2010, which might lead to the availability of Tru2way recorders.

8. Can I use an ATSC-capable DVD recorder as an HDTV receiver?


All of the units seen so far deliver only standard-definition (SD) output. They can receive high-definition (HD) signals, but they downconvert HD to SD both for recording and for immediate viewing via a line output. This is because of limitations in the integrated chips that are used for decoding and processing the ATSC signal in these units.
 
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#127 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by PatH /forum/post/15168728


One more for wajo or anyone else. Wajo advised that I view the output of the Panny's through line out. Fine and dandy, but I was reading the Panny manuals and each has a HDMI connection. The TV's I'm looking at all have three of these. So could I plug the Panny's and my future Philips (am I incorrect in assuming it has HDMI?) into each of these for output to the TV without causing some kind of conflict?


Pat

Yes, plug each DVDR into one of the HDMI connectors, then use your TV remote to select "HDMI1" or "HDMI2" etc. or whatever name your TV gives those.


With my 3575's I actually get a better TUNER pic with Digital Composite cables compared to HDMI... my TV source is basic (analog) cable, which is a Composite signal. I use HDMI only for playing commercial DVDs, where the pic is awesome!
 
#130 ·
With so many posts on each subject I may never find the answer to my question but I'll try. Being a rather elderly individual the world of DVD's is a little scarry. I'm really a VCR person. I presently have 3 DVD/VCR combo machines connected to 3 TV's. Only one TV is a LCD with a digital tuner. I presently have hundreds of DVD movies but only watched one since I get irritated with all that book, page, etc stuff or whatever it is all about. I fall asleep easily so I tape, on VHS tapes most shows or programs and watch whenever I want. At my age I'll probably never get used to those DVD things.

I've heard that after February 2009 I will not be able to record on the VCR portion any more unless I use a converter box. One of my VCR/DVD machines is a Toshiba with a ATSC/NTSC/QAM tuner that I just purchased a few days ago for this reason, just in case. Haven't hooked this one up yet. All other recorder/players are old and analog.

Anyone know if it's true that even this Toshiba machine will not be able to record digital signals on the VCR section after the change over? Salesman told me none on the market will be able to record on the VCR part without a digital converter and he sold me this Toshiba. Must I still connect a converter box to the Toshiba? If I do how would this effect the Toshiba LCD TV with the digital tuner? I have several of those converter boxes. Is there a specific one that would work better in this situation? I have a Zenith, Magnavox, Dishnetwork so far.

Like I said I'm on the older side and all this technology is slowly loosing me. I can purchase all the VCR tapes I want around here. Sure wish I'll be able to use them.
 
#131 ·
If you're talking about over-the-air television, the Zinwell ZAT-950A CECB has built-in event timers, which will allow the box to change channels on it's own. That would've been the best choice for someone like you - as long as you can also set timers on the VCR side to coincide.


Seeing as you already have a DTVPal, though, you might as well just use that instead, because that box has timers, also. Only thing is, don't expect the picture quality on the LCD from the DTVPal to be all that great, as that's never been rated too highly on that box (the Zinwell's is supposed to be a bit better. It's timers are also generally more reliable than the Pal's. Of all the CECB's you said you have, the Zenith has the best PQ, so if you don't really need the timers to change channels, I'd just use that. Just leave the box on and tuned to the channel you want to record from).


If you need QAM on the VCR side, there are a few standalone tuners that will give you that - check the "HDTV Hardware" sticky on HD tuners. If you need QAM and NTSC, I'd suggest the PrimeDTV PHD-205. If you just want NTSC, just use the tuner from your old VCR for that. You can run it into the Toshiba.


One question, though - if you have a DVD recorder now, why do you want to continue to record on bulky, clunky VHS tapes? The picture quality of DVD is much better, and they certainly take up less space (and VHS tapes are going to be increasingly harder to find now - and blank DVD's are generally much cheaper in bulk). They're really that not difficult to use once you get used to them. It's easy to get psyched out by all those features on a DVD recorder - especially when you try to decipher those convoluted manuals they give you - but all you really need to know is start/stop, FF/RW, chapter up/back, and record/erase.
 
#132 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by just carl /forum/post/15472542


One of my VCR/DVD machines is a Toshiba with a ATSC/NTSC/QAM tuner that I just purchased a few days ago for this reason, just in case. Haven't hooked this one up yet. All other recorder/players are old and analog.

Anyone know if it's true that even this Toshiba machine will not be able to record digital signals on the VCR section after the change over? Salesman told me none on the market will be able to record on the VCR part without a digital converter and he sold me this Toshiba.

If your Toshiba would NOT record from the ATSC and QAM tuners to its VCR, I would be stunned. I think the salesman was feeding you a load of equine excrement. But, I don't have that machine. Maybe someone who does can confirm?
 
#133 ·
I have a similar question as Carl.

Currently, I am using a VHS player to record a show every morning from 2 am to 3 am.

Then I will watch the tape the following night, rewind the tape, to be re-recorded over the following morning.


The Philips3576 is the ideal product to digital recorder to record shows directly on the HDD, however, it costs > $300


So I am thinking about buying a cheap $99 dvd recorder, which record on DVDs.


My question is:

- For these DVD recorders, is it true that I can re-record onto the same DVD RW disc over and over again?

- With the DVD RW disc, is it pretty straight forward to rewind and fast forward.

- Can I specify the recorder to record anything that comes through the video input, at 2 to 3 am, or must it rely on some type of EPG programming guide?

- Which brand with ATSC tuner should I buy at $99. I need a machine that can accept 2 video inputs (one tuner is sufficient), so that I can use the tuner to record the OTA shows, and the other input to record satellite shows.

With a VCR, for example, I can hookup the the antenna to the coaxial, and the satellite to Line 1. Then i can set the program event to record from Channel 5 from 2 to 3 am, then from Line 1 from 3 to 4 am.


These questions may sound trivial, any help will be appreciated.


John W
 
#134 ·
You could look for a Panasonic EZ-28 with the tuner built-in for a good price and just go with that. DVD-RAM is best for time-shifting (it's sort of a "mini-DVR"), as you can get more re-recordings out of it. And you can record in full widescreen with it, if you ever need that, which you can't do with +/-R or +/-RW. Those others are fine for an older, 4:3 TV, but if you ever get a 16:9 one and want to use it on that, you'll be glad you have that feature.


Not many recorders record on or playback -RAM. Some, like the Toshiba's, will play them, but not record to them.


If you were prepared to spend up to $200.00 anyway, you can usually find the EZ-28 for that price, or sometimes even less.


If you want a hard drive model, the $239.98 Magnavox H2160 is available at Walmart.com (although I think it might be out of stock at this moment - usually isn't for long, though). Sometimes you can find their last model, the H2080, for quite a bit less (even less "refurbished". It only has half the size HDD (80GB to 160GB), but it's also known to be a bit buggier tham most. The newer model is apparently better, but for OTA-only recording, the old one may suffice.


They all have more than one line input.
 
#135 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by lbjohn /forum/post/15478950


The Philips3576 is the ideal product to digital recorder to record shows directly on the HDD, however, it costs > $300


So I am thinking about buying a cheap $99 dvd recorder, which record on DVDs.

The cheapest DVD recorder with ATSC tuner that I would even consider buying is the Toshiba D-R560 for $150 from buydig.com. It records to +/-RW (but since it is a funai box it will favor +RW) which are cheap enough in bulk and should be good for a couple dozen re-records before errors start cropping up. Since you are using it for OTA recording, you shouldn't have any trouble with the funai tuner.
 
#136 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by lbjohn /forum/post/15478950


I have a similar question as Carl.

Currently, I am using a VHS player to record a show every morning from 2 am to 3 am.

Then I will watch the tape the following night, rewind the tape, to be re-recorded over the following morning.


My question is:

- For these DVD recorders, is it true that I can re-record onto the same DVD RW disc over and over again?

- With the DVD RW disc, is it pretty straight forward to rewind and fast forward.

- Can I specify the recorder to record anything that comes through the video input, at 2 to 3 am, or must it rely on some type of EPG programming guide?

- Which brand with ATSC tuner should I buy at $99. I need a machine that can accept 2 video inputs (one tuner is sufficient), so that I can use the tuner to record the OTA shows, and the other input to record satellite shows.

With a VCR, for example, I can hookup the the antenna to the coaxial, and the satellite to Line 1. Then i can set the program event to record from Channel 5 from 2 to 3 am, then from Line 1 from 3 to 4 am.


John W

I see your about to give up on VHS tapes. Me I really like them. I like the ability to take one out of the machine, put aside, add more tomorrow, play back what I want, when I want and as much as I want.

I've heard that if you use a rewrittable DVD-RW you can use it even more than a VHS tape.

Might have to try that soon enough.
 
#137 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by just carl /forum/post/15485521


I see your about to give up on VHS tapes. Me I really like them. I like the ability to take one out of the machine, put aside, add more tomorrow, play back what I want, when I want and as much as I want.

I've heard that if you use a rewrittable DVD-RW you can use it even more than a VHS tape.

Might have to try that soon enough.

Even simpler would be a hard-drive based recorder... never have to swap ANY media. Its all just there till you erase it. Have you thought about something like the Philips HDD recorder? Personally, I'm waiting to see what the immediate future brings us to find a replacement for my trusty (but analog SD) Panasonic DMR-EH85.
 
#138 ·
Yes, the Philips or the Magnavox would be ideal, but they cost $249 at least.

The Toshiba 560 with Tuner looks good at $160.


I see that there is a Toshiba 410 without Tuner at $99, which I can connect to my DTVPal Plus CECB. Does anyone know if the 410 allow Timed Recording? or do I have to manually start the recording myself?


I just went to Toshiba site, and read the manual. It does allow timer recording. I will go to a local store to get one and try it out.
 
#141 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by lbjohn /forum/post/15492790


One last question, for the non HDD recorder, I will always have to "finalize" the disc before I can watch the disc? even if the disc is DVD-RW?


For the Panasonic types, which can be recorded on to DVD-RAM, do I need to "finalize" the DVD-RAM discs also?

Hi lb,


For any + or - DVD, yes, you will have to finalize it to play it in other recorders. DVD-RW discs do not have to be finalized for playback on compatible machines. DVD-RAM discs are much like DVD+/-RW discs: you can record on them repeatedly and watch them on any compatible playback machine (I always leave one in the DVD slot of both my Panny DMR machines, and they basically work just like the HD).
 
#142 ·
-RWs need to be finalized to be played in anything other than the recorder that recorded them or usually the same brand that recorded it.

+RWs and RAMs don't need to be finalized although +RWs usually need to have a separate step done which creates the top menu, if you want that. On Pannys anyway it takes about as long as finalizing a -RW disc.
 
#143 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjeff /forum/post/15496127


-RWs need to be finalized to be played in anything other than the recorder that recorded them or usually the same brand that recorded it.

Well, lots of people say that, but unfinalized -RW discs recorded on my Pio 640 play just fine on my Sony 995 400 disc changer, and my Oppo 980.
 
#144 ·
That's handy, do the discs have a top menu or do they play like +RWs that aren't made compatible, that is no available top menu and they automatically play when inserted?

Do all Pios act that way or do you think that it's more about your Sony and Oppo players? I know none of my Sony single players play unfinalized -RW from any of my Pannys.
 
#145 ·
It's been a while since I played one. I think they come up with a menu similar to the menu that shows on the Pio for an unfinalized disc. I should point out that these are -RW VR mode discs. Perhaps unfinalized video mode discs behave differently. My Oppo's instructions says it won't play VR discs, but I think I played some, so I better check.


I WAS surprised that the Sony would play unfinalized -RW VR discs. But, insertion isn't a factor, since it is a 400 disc carousel. Perhaps they do start play when selected. I loaded about 10 in the player, and watched most, but that was a couple of months ago. I do think hitting the menu button brought up a title list type menu.
 
#147 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcalabria /forum/post/15487230


Even simpler would be a hard-drive based recorder... never have to swap ANY media. Its all just there till you erase it. Have you thought about something like the Philips HDD recorder? Personally, I'm waiting to see what the immediate future brings us to find a replacement for my trusty (but analog SD) Panasonic DMR-EH85.

You just turned on a light bulb......I have a H10-250 recorder from DTV that was replaced by a newer DVR. Instead of using the H10 as a boat anchor, could I somehow hook it up to my H21 unit in the living room and record feeds off of DTV. Right now my DVR in the bedroom is full and I don't have enough time to burn DVD's on my Panasonic EZ47
 
#148 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjeff /forum/post/15532978


Yes I think that explains it, I believe the VR mode is similar to the + format. I didn't think of that since Pannys only do the VIDEO mode and no VR mode. One of the little extras on a Pio

Panasonic records VR mode to RAM, Pioneer, and I believe Toshiba, can record VR mode to -RW. This is very different from the Philips +VR mode. VR mode allows for variable resolution as well as VBR and was designed for easy video editing. The variable resolution part can cause people problems if they are not aware of it -- you can't high-speed dub a DVD-R from a variable resolution VR recording. VR mode is recorded on UDF 2 formatted disks, is the CPRM compliant format and does not have to be finalized. My Sony and Panasonic players both playback VR mode disks, but the Sony only plays -RW VR disks. If I take a VR mode RAM burned on my Panasonic E-85 and image copy it to a DVD-RW, it plays on the Sony. As far as the video data is concerned, it is still an MPEG-2 stream just like DVD-Video.
 
#149 ·
My Polaroid DRA-01601a has failed and I wish to replace it with a new DVR. It should have the tuners to receive OTA digital, satellite, and cable since we're in an RV and the input will vary from park to park. It should also be capable of outputting hi def to the TV. We also want the capability to record to hard drive and/or DVD. I would very much appreciate any suggestions.
 
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