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Samsung LNxxA650 Gamer's (Input Lag) Thread

120K views 661 replies 114 participants last post by  micro5797 
#1 ·
I created a this thread in an effort to create a FAQ/Information section to post in the Official Samsung LNxxA650 Owner's Thread and hopefully add to the first informational post in that thread.


Please feel free to add any additional or missing information you think might be helpful.


Please keep in mind that this is meant to be a mostly factual and informational discussion and keep the discussion limited to this scope.


I think this will help reduce some of the repetitive questions/discussion with regards to input lag and gaming while still allowing us to keep the information and questions within Official Samsung LNxxA650 Owner's Thread.


I want to make it clear that my hope and intention is NOT to create a separate and ongoing thread/discussion from the owners thread but rather collaborate in providing a single point (within the Official Samsung LNxxA650 Owner's Thread) to answer a great majority of the questions with regards to the A650 and input lag / gaming.


Perhaps this will strike a happy medium for all looking for information regarding the LNXXA650.


Here is what I have so far.


=======================================================

Gaming


The A650 can be great for gaming but you should understand a few of it's features in order to configure the A650 for the best performance or picture quality based on your preferences.


If you are playing games that are not affected by input lag or if you have no concern for it, you will likely want to use either standard or movie mode as this will give you the greatest control over the picture quality. If this is the case, you can feel comfortable using any input (or input type) to help you obtain the picture quality that best meets you viewing preference.


If you are playing games that are affected by input lag or if you do have concern for it, you will want to read the section below regarding input lag and use one of the methods described to reduce/eliminate it. Those options will allow you to bring the A650 into the same realm of performance offered by your typical computer monitor. Please note that using any of those methods eliminates some of the settings available to you and may require a sacrifice in picture quality. This is the result of reducing signal processing in order to achieve faster response times.



Below are a few specific notes for the major consoles.
Xbox 360 - The Xbox 360 is capable of outputting 480P, 720P or 1080P. The Xbox 360 (unlike the PS3) will upscale the source (game/dvd) to the resolution set in the display settings section on the Xbox system console. As described below, you may want to set your Xbox to output 1080P, if you would like to take advantage of the HDMI2/PC feature. If you are using the HDMI2/PC feature and you have the Xbox set to output 480P or 720P, the A650 will disable the PC mode feature and return to normal operation (and therefore increase the signal processing time). If you are using your Xbox 360 and HDMI2/PC, you may want to set Reference Levels (under Display on your Xbox console to "Expanded".

The other options (Game mode or VGA) to reduce input lag are discussed below. A VGA connection is available for the Xbox but requires you to purchase an additional adapter.

This adapter can be found here .
http://www.xbox.com/en-US/hardware/x/xbox360vgahdcable/

It typically costs $30-$40.

Please note that it appears the Xbox 360 must be in 1080P for the 650 to accept the signal. If the Xbox 360 is set to 480P or 720P the 650 will return a message stating "mode not supported".

Playstation 3 - The PS3 operates different from the Xbox 360. The PS3 will output the source format. This means that, if you are playing a 480P or 720P title (game/dvd), and trying to utilize the HDMI2/PC feature it will not work and will not reduce the signal processing (input lag).


Wii - I don't have one. Anyone have any input?



Input Lag


There are a few important things to understand about the A650 with regards to input lag.


Normal, Standard and Dynamic (to a lesser degree) modes offer significant control over the picture settings and therefore increase signal processing. Therefore these settings increase the time the A650 takes to process a signal and display it. This delay (or signal processing time) are what "input lag" refers to. Under normal modes (Normal, Standard and Dynamic) this delay can range from 40ms to 120+ms depending on your settings. This is typically only relevant (noticeable) in games with a significant dependence on accurate timing of controller actions. Examples of these types of games are first person shooters (Call of Duty, Halo, etc), music games (Rockband, Guitar Hero, etc.) and some sports or fighting games (MLB, Madden, Street Fighter, etc.).



This signal processing time (Input Lag) can be reduced through various features of the A650 or by using specific connection setups. Each of those options are discussed below.

VGA Connection - This option eliminates nearly all signal processing because it assumes you are using a personal computer and that processing is taking place by the computer hardware (graphics card). Since it eliminates nearly all signal processing, it also disables many picture settings (due to eliminating that portion of the processing) and limits the control the A650 has over the overall picture quality. Based on testing, this offers the best results in eliminating input lag.


VGA mode typically reduces input lag to 0-8ms.

Please note, 480P (720x480 or 702x480) and 720P (1280x720) do not work with VGA and return the message "mode not supported".

Also, many 16:9 and 16:10 resolutions would not display properly on the 650 and returned a "mode not supported" message.



The following resolutions did work.

640x480

800x600

1024x768

1280x1024

1360x768 (wasn't expecting that to work; very close to a 16:9 resolution)

1776x1000 (detected as 1920x1080)


HDMI2/PC - This is accomplished by connecting your gaming console to the HDMI2 input and then going into the menu and under the the Input section selecting Edit Name. Once in the Edit Name menu, you select HDMI2 and change the name to PC. This enables a special mode only available to the HDMI2 input that is similar (but not identical) to the VGA connection described above. It eliminates some signal processing (and therefore control of some picture settings) just like the VGA connection.


HDMI2/PC mode typically reduces input lag ranging from 6-60ms. You must pay special attention to your configuration when trying to optimize HDMI2/PC.


There is one important feature to note for the HDMI2/PC mode. When using this "feature" it will not work for any source the A650 senses as providing a 480P or 720P signal. This applies to the Wii, the PS3 (for non 1080P titles and Blu-Ray 24Hz), the Xbox 360 (if not set to display 1080P) or any computer providing a 480P or 720P resolution. Under these circumstances, the A650 will disable the PC mode feature and return to normal processing making all settings for Standard, Movie, Dynamic and the 3 E.Modes available. HDMI2/PC will work for all other resolutions tested (including 1080P). We can only assume this is done to prevent your average consumer from naming their source to PC and inadvertently disabling certain features and possibly degrading picture quality for standard DVD players and home theater products. You can easily check if PC mode is active by pressing the E.Mode button. If you get the response box stating "not available" this means that the PC mode feature is active. If you are able to change the E.Mode, PC mode is not active and the A650 is operating under normal processing.


In HDMI2/PC mode you still have Standard, Movie and Dynamic modes available but you lose the ability to control the following settings:

Sharpness, Color, Tint (G/R), Black Adjust, Color Space, Flesh Tone, Edge Enhancement, xvYCC, Digital NR, DNIe, HDMI Black Level, Film Mode, Blue Only Mode and Auto Motion Plus. Many of these settings are disabled because they are irrelevant for PC inputs.

Game Mode - Game mode is similar to the previous two options but does not require a specific connection type. Game mode is enabled by pressing the E.Mode button until you see the Game mode is active. Again, this eliminates signal processing (input lag) and limits the control over many picture settings.


Game mode typically reduces input lag to 15-25ms.


In game mode you lose the ability to control the following settings:

Backlight, Contrast, Brightness, Sharpness, Color, Tint (G/R), All Detailed Settings, Color Tone, DNIe, Blue Only Mode and Auto Motion Plus.

One method for controlling the Backlight while in Game mode is to adjust the Energy Saving setting under the Setup menu.


=======================================================

Summary of Test Results

Here is a quick summary of the testing that was done. Thank you Cynn for helping compile and organize it.

First a couple of notes:


-PC testing is the best form of lag tests. Console specific tests can be flawed. This also provides better consistency by using the same source for all resolutions and connection types.

-For reference, here are the specs for the PC. Q6600 (@3.2 OC), 4GB G.Skill RAM (@1066), ATI 4850 (@defaults).

-These tests are done comparing the LN46A650 (FW 2004.0) to a Dell SP2208WFP 2ms Response time monitor. During 1080P testing, the monitor was operating in it's native resolution.


-16.6ms of lag = 1 frame or refresh cycle at 60hz. We'll round down to 16ms for these test results so they will be slightly better than posted but not enough different to notice.

PERSPECTIVE: So that people better understand the speeds we are talking about when discussing milliseconds, here are some common speeds to consider.


-The average speed of a human eye blink is 300-400ms


-It takes 50ms for an image you see to be relayed from the eye to the brain.


_________________________________________________

VGA mode / 1080p.


Average lag: 0-8ms

0.0-0.5 frame delay.

Average FD: 0.3 Frame (~a third of a frame)

59.7 cycles per second (of 60)

Zero/Undetectable lag to humans.

(approved for pro level gaming)

VGA mode / any PC resolution accepted by the 650. 480P and 720P will not work in VGA.


Average lag: 0-8ms

0.0-0.5 frame delay.

Average FD: 0.3 Frame (~a third of a frame)

59.7 cycles per second (of 60)

Zero/Undetectable lag to humans.

(approved for pro level gaming)

HDMI2 PC mode / 1080p.


Average lag: 6-15ms

0.3-1 frame delay.

Average FD: 0.6 Frame (~half a frame)

59.5 cycles per second (of 60)

Zero/Undetectable lag to humans.

(approved for pro level gaming)

HDMI GAME mode / 1080p.


Average lag: 15-25ms

1-2 Frame delay.

Average FD: 1.5 Frame

58.5 cycles per second (of 60)

Detectable lag only for remarkably sensitive people.

(approved for pro level gaming)

HDMI Movie Mode / 1080p / No image enhancers activated.


Average lag: 50-60ms

3-4 frame delay

Average FD: 3.5 Frame

56.5 cycles per second (of 60)

Detectable lag for most serious game players especially in the fighting/first person game types.

(NOT approved for pro level gaming)

HDMI Standard Mode / 1080p / No image enhancers activated.


Average Lag: 50-60ms

3-4 frame delay

Average FD: 3.5 Frame

56.5 cycles per second (of 60)

Detectable lag for most serious game players especially in the fighting/first person game types.

(NOT approved for pro level gaming)

Component Standard Mode / 1080p / No image enhancers activated.


Average Lag: 80-100ms

5-6 frame delay

Average FD: 5.5 Frame

54.5 cycles per second (of 60)

Detectable lag for most game players especially in the fighting/first person game types.

(NOT approved for pro level gaming)

Component GAME mode / 480p.


Average lag: 15-25ms

1-2 Frame delay.

Average FD: 1.5 Frame

58.5 cycles per second (of 60)

Detectable lag only for remarkably sensitive people.

(approved for pro level gaming)
 
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#204 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snatch98 /forum/post/15668631


Thanks. I completely forgot about that breakdown. I can adjust all or most of the settings in HDMI2/PC mode correct? How much do you think the HDMI cables will help when in game mode? Currently it's too dark and I don't expect the HDMI cables to brighten it up but it should clear everything up a bit. Either way I plan to go the HDMI2/PC route because of the ability to adjust the settings.

Just to make sure do you have the ps3 settings set up right???
 
#205 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmanvbva /forum/post/15668007


From the first post.

HDMI2 PC mode / 1080p.


Average lag: 6-15ms

0.3-1 frame delay.

Average FD: 0.6 Frame (~half a frame)

59.5 cycles per second (of 60)

Zero/Undetectable lag to humans.

(approved for pro level gaming)

HDMI GAME mode / 1080p.


Average lag: 15-25ms

1-2 Frame delay.

Average FD: 1.5 Frame

58.5 cycles per second (of 60)

Detectable lag only for remarkably sensitive people.

(approved for pro level gaming)

HDMI Movie Mode / 1080p / No image enhancers activated.


Average lag: 50-60ms

3-4 frame delay

Average FD: 3.5 Frame

56.5 cycles per second (of 60)

Detectable lag for most serious game players especially in the fighting/first person game types.

(NOT approved for pro level gaming)

HDMI Standard Mode / 1080p / No image enhancers activated.


Average Lag: 50-60ms

3-4 frame delay

Average FD: 3.5 Frame

56.5 cycles per second (of 60)

Detectable lag for most serious game players especially in the fighting/first person game types.

(NOT approved for pro level gaming)

Question have you stopped testing just asking cause I was curious and also I thought it would be beneficial to see if using energy saver mode on either low, medium, or high can add more input lag or not?
 
#206 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by felonyr301 /forum/post/15668851


Question have you stopped testing just asking cause I was curious and also I thought it would be beneficial to see if using energy saver mode on either low, medium, or high can add more input lag or not?

For now, yes. I just put my living room and computer desk back together last weekend.


I will probably do another round of testing, at some point.
 
#208 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmanvbva /forum/post/15667887


To further clarify, in all my testing turning AMP on/off had NO NOTICEABLE impact on input lag. People assume the lag is produced by the AMP processing but my testing does not support this in any way.

That is weird, AMP takes a "1" frame and a "2" frame to create a "1.5" frame, meaning that there must be extra processing time. I think it also depends on what you are viewing, complicated motion might take longer to process than a static PC screen with no horizontal or vertical motion like your tests. I have also noticed lip sync delay when watching HD content with AMP on medium or high on my 750
 
#209 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero HD /forum/post/15670801


That is weird, AMP takes a "1" frame and a "2" frame to create a "1.5" frame, meaning that there must be extra processing time. I think it also depends on what you are viewing, complicated motion might take longer to process than a static of screen with no horizontal or vertical motion like your tests. I have also noticed lip sync delay when watching HD content with AMP on medium of high on my 750

That could be possible. If I do further testing, I will put a video or movie on in the background to see if it increases the lag.
 
#210 ·
How's the lag in 480i on the A650?


All I see is progressive result which I am not interested to know. Some people still play 2D fighting games & bemani games.
 
#211 ·
I can't thank you guys enough for creating this thread. I just purchased, and am awaiting the arrival of my ln46a650, and as another poster said I never thought to consider its ability to game when all the reviews for the tv say it's so great. It's also my first LCD, coming from a 30inch CRT. This thread has been so helpful in helping me avoid a problem I would have probably freaked out about had I not learned what I learned here. Though I do have a couple of questions in reference to something Cynn posted.


He had said that when connecting via HDMI2/PC and playing a Blu-ray it will automatically disable PC mode. My questions are: So when it disables PC mode, does this then mean all regular modes and settings adjustments then become available? This may sound like a dumb question and it probably is, but I don't have the tv yet.


My second question is: Why does it disable the PC mode if a Blu-Ray is still sending a 1080p signal through the same connection? I thought the 1080p signal being sent through is ultimately what is necessary for the HDMI2/PC trick to work and stay enabled. How can it tell the difference between a game and a movie(staying enabled vs. becoming disabled)?


Thanks again, as this thread seemingly has taught me everything I'd ever want to know about this model tv and how to avoid/deal with/and or eliminate input lag.


P.S...Probably not the best place for this question, but I figured it sort of fit with all the 1080p talk and input lag concerns. Is SF4 for the PS3 going to display in 1080p? I can't find direct info on this anywhere. Wondering simply for the fact if this will be a "game mode" game or a HDMI2/PC game without game mode enabled...
 
#212 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Graffin /forum/post/15671958



He had said that when connecting via HDMI2/PC and playing a Blu-ray it will automatically disable PC mode. My questions are: So when it disables PC mode, does this then mean all regular modes and settings adjustments then become available? This may sound like a dumb question and it probably is, but I don't have the tv yet.

Yes all modes and adjustments unlock.

Quote:
My second question is: Why does it disable the PC mode if a Blu-Ray is still sending a 1080p signal through the same connection? I thought the 1080p signal being sent through is ultimately what is necessary for the HDMI2/PC trick to work and stay enabled. How can it tell the difference between a game and a movie(staying enabled vs. becoming disabled)?

The Blu-Ray disc does indeed also send a 1080p signal but the magic is that it sends it at 24hz. PC mode only works with 1080p at 60hz. So when it gets 24hz input it just switches off PC mode. You'll know when PC mode goes on and off due to a black screen as it activates. This will also allow your Blu settings and Game settings to be different.

Quote:
P.S...Probably not the best place for this question, but I figured it sort of fit with all the 1080p talk and input lag concerns. Is SF4 for the PS3 going to display in 1080p? I can't find direct info on this anywhere. Wondering simply for the fact if this will be a "game mode" game or a HDMI2/PC game without game mode enabled...

uk.Playstation.com has it listed as 720p. I read one report where someone reported that it was running at 1080i during an event. It's most likely 720p though as it runs at 60 frames per second. So it looks like Game Mode if you don't play the X360 version.
 
#215 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Deap /forum/post/15671926


How's the lag in 480i on the A650?


All I see is progressive result which I am not interested to know. Some people still play 2D fighting games & bemani games.

No idea. I do not have a 480i source for testing. I would assume it could be no better than 480P. At this point in the game, not many are interested in 480i.
 
#216 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmanvbva /forum/post/15667887


To further clarify, in all my testing turning AMP on/off had NO NOTICEABLE impact on input lag. People assume the lag is produced by the AMP processing but my testing does not support this in any way.

To expand on what someone said earlier, if Amp is taking the current frame (1) and the previous frame (2) to create the interpolation, you will at minimum be one frame behind the current input. So in the best case scenario, if AMP processing was instantaneous, it would add 16ms of lag. It it's not instantaneous, you need to add however long it takes to process the extra frame to the 16ms.
 
#217 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by HistoneMaster /forum/post/15673387


To expand on what someone said earlier, if Amp is taking the current frame (1) and the previous frame (2) to create the interpolation, you will at minimum be one frame behind the current input. So in the best case scenario, if AMP processing was instantaneous, it would add 16ms of lag. It it's not instantaneous, you need to add however long it takes to process the extra frame to the 16ms.

I won't argue with that theory (because I agree with it).


But, in Standard mode with AMP off I had identical results when compared to Standard mode with AMP on High.


Perhaps the processing is still taking place and producing identical input lag but it is just not inserting the extra frame(s)?


I also could only assume that Low, Med and High are different in that each setting increases the amount of frames inserted each second?


For example,


High inserts 60 extra "calculated frames" each second

Medium inserts 40 extra "calculated frames" each second

Low inserts 20 extra "calculated frames" each second

Off inserts 0 extra "calculated frames" each second


The lag time created by this process (while in a normal mode) may be present regardless of whether the "calculated frame" is inserted or not.


To me this would make more sense based on my understanding of AMP AND the test results.


It would also make sense that game mode and PC mode remove this processing/circuity from the signal processing path all together and therefore reduce the input lag.
 
#218 ·
Your logic sounds correct and it would make sense given your results. We use "dummy" pauses in the machines we build here at work, and it sometimes makes the software more stable because everything is time sync'ed.


It also makes sense that PC mode would disable the feature completely and just take the signal fed by the computer/game system.


My initial guess would have been that AMP takes a fair amount of processing time, but given the results provided by yourself and from what others have said it must be a very optimized process since it seems to run very quickly. Quite impressive considering how new the technology is.
 
#219 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmanvbva /forum/post/15674563


I won't argue with that theory (because I agree with it).


But, in Standard mode with AMP off I had identical results when compared to Standard mode with AMP on High.


Perhaps the processing is still taking place and producing identical input lag but it is just not inserting the extra frame(s)?

Interesting discovery.


I still think AMP is the primary reason for the processing, therefor the lag. But I now understand selecting AMP "off" doesn't turn off the lag-causing processing.


So I believe the following is what's been discovered in this thread about gaming on this TV:
  • Entertainment "game mode" via HDMI on any input turns off the "processing engine" (new term?) and feels lag-free to all but the most sensitive player.
  • using a 1080p 60Hz device with a VGA or HDMI cable on input 2 named "PC" effectively eliminates all lag. The caveat is if the device leaves 1080/60 (example: a PS3 playing a 720p game or Blu-ray 24Hz disc), it will default to a previous laggy experience -- which can be fixed mostly by "game mode" (see above)
  • using "game mode" or "PC mode" (above) also removes most video and sound tweaking options


If the above it true, I recommend the OP to include this information in the first post, and please edit it to adjust for accuracy and clarity.
 
#220 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Deap /forum/post/15671926


How's the lag in 480i on the A650?


All I see is progressive result which I am not interested to know. Some people still play 2D fighting games & bemani games.

The lag is gonna be higher obviously because it's not running in it's native resolution and 480i is the worse one. It's safe to say that even on any other good quality lcd tv regardless if it's 1080p or 720p, 480i will run with a little more input lag than running in the tv's native resolution.


The real question is that if run under game mode will you notice the difference since game mode on 1080p is low enough where one wouldn't really notice.
 
#221 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaverJ /forum/post/15674955


Interesting discovery.


I still think AMP is the primary reason for the processing, therefor the lag. But I now understand selecting AMP "off" doesn't turn off the lag-causing processing.


So I believe the following is what's been discovered in this thread about gaming on this TV:
  • Entertainment "game mode" via HDMI on any input turns off the "processing engine" (new term?) and feels lag-free to all but the most sensitive player.
  • using a 1080p 60Hz device with a VGA or HDMI cable on input 2 named "PC" effectively eliminates all lag. The caveat is if the device leaves 1080/60 (example: a PS3 playing a 720p game or Blu-ray 24Hz disc), it will default to a previous laggy experience -- which can be fixed mostly by "game mode" (see above)
  • using "game mode" or "PC mode" (above) also removes most video and sound tweaking options


If the above it true, I recommend the OP to include this information in the first post, and please edit it to adjust for accuracy and clarity.

Everything mentioned in your list is already there (along with more information).


I may add mention to the sound tweaking options (not being available) but I would have to take a look at it. I disable my 650 speakers since I have a Onkyo and speakers.


It makes some sense that VGA (and perhaps PC mode) would not allow you to change some speaker settings since it would be expecting you to have some other form of audio. PC graphic cards did not start supporting audio out over HDMI until fairly recently and obviously VGA does not accommodate for audio.


No idea why Game mode (if it does) would disable speaker options.
 
#222 ·
Another thing that hasn't really been tested is output lag. Unlike the PS3, the Xbox 360 scales everything to 1080p which is nice because it makes the TV's job easier, but there may be lag on the output too contributing to the overall feeling of input lag.


input/output lag is pretty much a non-issue for prerecorded content like movies and TV (outside of minor sound sync issues if using all processing features available) but for real time generated content like video games and PC usage it is important, I have no idea how one would create controlled tests for output lag though.
 
#223 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero HD /forum/post/15675309


Another thing that hasn't really been tested is output lag. Unlike the PS3, the Xbox 360 scales everything to 1080p which is nice because it makes the TV's job easier, but there may be lag on the output too contributing to the overall feeling of input lag.


input/output lag is pretty much a non-issue for prerecorded content like movies and TV (outside of minor sound sync issues if using all processing features available) but for real time generated content like video games and PC usage it is important, I have no idea how one would create controlled tests for output lag though.

I understand what you are saying, but that would be outside of the scope and almost irrelevant because it would be the same regardless of the TV.
 
#225 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero HD /forum/post/15675309


Another thing that hasn't really been tested is output lag. Unlike the PS3, the Xbox 360 scales everything to 1080p which is nice because it makes the TV's job easier, but there may be lag on the output too contributing to the overall feeling of input lag.


input/output lag is pretty much a non-issue for prerecorded content like movies and TV (outside of minor sound sync issues if using all processing features available) but for real time generated content like video games and PC usage it is important, I have no idea how one would create controlled tests for output lag though.

I would have to imagine that it would be insignificant. If the Xbox 360's scaler introduced significant lag it would be well documented by this point.
 
#226 ·
Okay, so as much as I want to purchase a 650 it is just outside of my price range.

720 vs 1080 isnt a big issue with me. Neither is glossy vs matte. My issue is lag for the impending release of SF IV.


Pretty much I was wondering if I could cut my costs by getting a 450 or 550 model and still have access to the lagless HDMI2/PC mentioned above?


I looked through the respective manuals online but couldn't get a definitive answer.
 
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