AVS Forum banner

Input lag wars!, post your input lag results of your LCD display here for reference

1M views 4K replies 818 participants last post by  Foxbat121 
#1 ·
Input Lag


What is Input lag?

Input lag is a delay from the moment your output device (PC, Game console, DVD, etc.) sends an image to your TV to when it is finally displayed on your screen to see.

more info can be found here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_lag


It is generally accepted that ALL display devices that are digitally based, LCD, Plasma, DLP, LCD projectors, anything thats not CRT based Have input lag, not to be confused with pixel lag which manufactures often advertise.

ONLY CRT displays due to their purely analog nature are Lag free analog signal goes in analog signal is displayed.


Digital Displays must convert any NON-digital signal (everything except HDMI and DVI are analog) into a digital signal to be processed and displayed, ALL LCD's even PC LCD's suffer from this delay. PC LCD's that are manufactured for gaming and general use primarily tend to be the fastest, offering near CRT speed of Display. many however can lag just as much if not even more than some HDTV LCD's. This is why using a CRT for these test is so important to insure that your baseline display is truly lag free. Using another LCD even a fast one can make a TV's input lag results appear to be LOWER (faster response) than it Really is. how much lower will depend on the LCD monitors lag (the fastest LCD's have been tested at 2-8 milliseconds with the average LCD monitor around 16ms witch is a whole frame delay, many LCD monitors can have lag in excess of 30ms (2+ frames delayed)

that being said, most LCD PC monitor have low input lag because they are cheap and cheap means they are TN based (Twisted Nematic) most TN monitors do not use RTC or Overdrive and if they do they are not a good display to use as a control for these tests unless you can disable this feature in its menus (most newer PC monitors will allow this so check for it if your monitor has Overdrive mode)

Does this lag Matter to me?


Input lag matters to many HDTV users, Mainly Gamers that like to play fast twitch FPS games, Fighting games (street fighter style), Music games (guitar hero/rock band) any game where timing is important. It can also effect Normal TV users that never play games and watch a lot of movies on their TV, depending on your setup. If you route all sound into your TV and do not have a surround receiver you are unlikely to see lip sync problems however, if you do use a Surround Receiver and it does not have HDMI or you are not using HDMI into the Receiver you may notice that the lip sync on your BD/DVD's is every so slightly off due to the sound output from your DVD player being plugged directly into the Receiver and is being played back when it is supposed to be played back. If you do see that happen in this type of situation it is likely you HDTV is DELAYING the video signal so much that you can notice it visually even in a movie


Generally most People cannot see or feel a difference of less than 30ms roughly 2 frames, some say they can but they are the rare few and likely younger people


3 frames delayed seems to be a Grey area where some people can notice it and others cannot, if you can notice this much delay you can often adapt to it and become used to it but it can very much still impact your gaming performance in games played online most notably FPS games due to the need for leading moving targets in the game etc.


4+ frames delayed is too much delay and should be readily noticeable to just about anyone if they took the time to notice it and is very detrimental to game play


For a visual example of how this effects your game play in FPS games here is a video of a guy playing counterstrike on a Sony EX5 (EX500 in the US)



The purpose of this thread is to Test your HDTV for Input lag VS a CRT display or a fast LCD monitor that has been tested by someone or yourself google for reviews and report back the results with pictures as proof of the results

These tests can never be more accurate than 1 Frame (16ms) and will never be completely accurate as there are many variables when doing these tests including but not limited to, your camera and its settings, your video card and its drivers/settings. LCD blur getting in the way of Clear readings etc. Due to this I will be posting summarized results in this Post of each TV tested and the Measurements will be in Frame Delay with one frame equaling 16ms.


How do I test my TV for input lag?

First you need a PC with a video card that has dual outputs


hook up the TV and CRT monitor to your PC's outputs


Set your video card to output in "Clone mode" so the same image is displayed on both screens at the same time


Get a Digital camera with a high ISO setting (ISO 800 is often the best setting) If it has a shutter delay option set it to 1/60 so they CRT and LCD will both be clear to see in every picture, if this is not set the CRT will have a rolling Horizontal Dark line as you can see in many pictures I've messed up for you below


if your testing with both displays being LCD you can rasie the shutter speed as high as your camera will allow to get clearer and more consitant results


last step is to go to the webpage in the link below in Rule #1 and scroll down till you find the Input lag timer and once you got everything setup the way you want it and camera ready to go, hit start and start snapping photos



post the pictures here with a summery of results if you have time to figure that out (frame delay is more important than figuring MS differences)

rules are


#1

you must post Pictures of your results using the input lag timer here are a few free ones
Lagom.nl
FlatpanelsHD

I also have a more accurate timer called SMTT, i had to pay for it but they allow you to freely distribute it to people just not on a website so if you would like a copy PM me. I currently have copies of Win7/Vista x64 and WinXP 32bit that i can give out

if you wish to Purchase a copy of a different version of SMTT you can do so at their website, if you do buy another version of SMTT please contact me if you wish to give me a copy so i can distribute it to future people who wish to test their displays and are not running Vista/Win7 x64, the cost of the program is 5 Euro's
http://smtt.thomasthiemann.com/index_en.html


SMTT will provide you will much more accurate results because it uses DirectX and unlocks the V-Sync of your graphics card's outputs, allthough the timer's down the side of the screen appear to not be in sync they in fact are. all displays scan from top to bottom and as the update happens on your display the timer keeps on advancing and that is the reason for the added accuracy of SMTT provided that your PC has enough CPU power to exceed 1000 FPS for the given resolution your at (my Core 2 Duo E4500 that is oc'd to 3.4ghz clocks around 2000 fps at 1920 x 1080)


when using this program you always want to take the highest visible number on both displays to use to draw your input lag result and if you do this you will end up with very consistent results. its extremely accurate


#2

tell us what model TV(s) involved in the test and what their relevant settings are for each test (game mode, PC mode etc..)



#3

it is preferred that you have a CRT display as your baseline for the comparison but if you do not a fast PC LCD is ok or another TV that has been tested before by someone vs a CRT is ok BUT, please state that you did not use a CRT and what the average lag is of the display is that you used from another source tested vs CRT if possible, if not thats ok, but results should be taken as the difference between the 2 LCD's that have been tested in your photos and not as an accurate reading of the input lag of either display obviously



#4

Make sure you also test your video cards outputs for delay by switching the display connections (ex, TV connected to #1 input Monitor on #2, take a handful of shots, then switch the monitor to #1 and the TV to #2 ) The reason for this is so far at least one user using a Geforce 260 has discovered that there is consistently a 1 frame delay from his primary connector to his secondary connector on his video card, all others so far have not experienced this including other Nvidia cards and ATI cards but it should always be checked so we can insure more accurate results


#5 to obtain the best possible results you need to have a control display that is capable of displaying your test subject's (TV) native resolution, for 1080p LCD TV's this is 1920 x 1080. CRT monitor rarely are able to display this resolution but many of them can if you force the resolution on them but you may/can damage your monitor if you do this so be aware. 1920 x 1080 native TN LCD monitors are ideal for these tests and many of them exist these days, if your monitor is lower resolution like 1680 x 1050 (very common for 22" TN monitors) this can work fairly good still at least with Nvidia card's because what happens is when you set clone mode for 1680 x 1050 Nvidia's by default recognize that your TV will not accept that resolution and automatically upscale it to 1920 x 1080. this does result in some inaccuracy of results but in my own tests the Nvidia scalier in my GF 8800 GT is very fast and only adds around 5ms of lag by doing this (i also have a CRT that will display 1920 x 1080 when its forced to do it)


Panel type and how much they lag typically


IPS = low input lag 0-16 ms(IPS-Pro made by IPS-Alpha (panasonics) S-IPS (made by LG LCD display)


xVA = 30+ ms input lag often in the 45-60ms range in game modes for most TV's that use this panel type(S-PVA, MVA type panels found in sony, samsung and many major brand TV's sold today. they are manufactured for the most part by S-LCD (sony/samsung owned company) AU Optronics and Chi Mei


TN = low input lag but not found in 95% of LCD TV's due to poor picture quality and not made in large sizes etc.

120hz sets often increase input lag. this does not necessarily mean that a 120hz set will always have high lag, there have been more than one 120hz sets that have very low input lag but it all depends on how they designed the TV to work. some models like the Samsung A650's and the Toshiba xv645u's actually disable 120hz completely when in a special mode made for PC's/gaming and then and only then they have low input lag.


the reason for VA's wide usage is simple. its cheaper to manufacture in large sizes and offers better static contrast ratios over IPS panels making for the best picture in LCD's. The problem is VA LCD panel type by its nature has a very poor pixel response speed in excess of 16ms natively with many G2G transitions so in order to fix this major flaw these panels must employ RTC short for Response Time Compensation or Pixel Overdrive as it was called by many LCD monitor manufactures when it first came out. The problem for gamers with RTC is in order for it to work the panel's TCON must buffer a few frames to analyze them for changes then tell the pixels to change state faster via over voltage the control transistors for the pixels by a certian amount depending on how much the change was


That being said there are VA displays that can produce good lag numbers at or under 30ms, samsung A series and toshiba 40xv645u are examples of this as well as sharp TV's with Vyper Drive (these sharp TV's use ASV panels and are a variation of VA tech) from what i've seen though these displays achieve low input lag by reducing how much RTC is used in the signal processing and it can create more pixel blur than is normal esp with dark images like moving a dark gray box over a black background will result in visible smear and ghosting yet more common transitions are still fast. this is a trade off us gamers will have to live with if we want TV's that perform good for gaming but can also produce great TV/movie picture quality


IPS panels naturally have a good response time and do not require the use of RTC to bring their response time down to the level that a person cannot see pixel smearing but they cannot even begin to compare to VA panels with black levels without resorting to backlight dimming tricks (panasonic calls it A.I. Picture) that being said it is not to be assumed that an IPS does not use RTC and is lag free, only Panasonic's with IPS-Pro panels (many of their 32/37 720/1080p panel's in the past few years have had these panels) have next to no input lag consistently, LG IPS TV's can vary from fast to ok or worse possibly and the 120hz+ models will likely be laggy unless they have a special mode that defeats the 120hz mode


here is some sample photos from LG Display comparing pixel response time of IPS and VA




other factors can be involved in input lag though like the speed of a certian TV's internal scalier when its given a non-native resolution as well as video processing circuitry like noise reduction and most of all 120hz/motion enhancers though all of these things can be overcome by disabling them in most all TV's so this is often not the real problem for most gamers unless you plan on using older consoles/Wii's with your TV (720p scaling can be a concern for PS3 owners as well)


An easy method to see if an LCD is VA is to press on the screen when a black/dark image is on screen see photo below also from LG Display



Test Results section


here i will divide the tested TV's into 3 sections as follows

GREEN TV's have no more than 2 frames delayed when in a certain mode that reduces lag

BLUE TV'S will be in the middle section, what i call the gray area, the TV's that end up in between 2 and 3 frames delayed and casual gamers will have no issues with most of these TV's

RED TV'S are for TV's with more than 3 frames delayed, some of the faster ones maybe ok to some gamers but overall these TV's will have very noticeable input lag to the majority of gamers out there today unless they only play games that are not sensitive to input lag but even then they just don't realize its there, ignorance is bliss as they say



for results on Plasma TV's please visit Orta's Plasma Input lag thread

BEST gaming TV's tested so far


Samsung A650's '08 40" and bigger ONLY
(results from 650 gamers lag thread ) S-PVA panel is likely for A series Samsungs, these are the only VA's that have achieved low input lag due to a special PC mode that hurts Picture Quality dramatically by owners accounts (it may very well be turning off RTC and is much of the cause of the PQ hit)

VGA mode / 1080p.


Average lag: 0-1 frame delay

VGA mode / any PC resolution accepted by the 650. 480P and 720P will not work in VGA.


Average lag: 0-1 frame delay

HDMI2 PC mode / 1080p.


Average lag: 0-1 frame delay

HDMI GAME mode / 1080p.


Average lag: 1-2 frame delay

HDMI Movie Mode / 1080p / No image enhancers activated.


Average lag: 3-4 frame delay

HDMI Standard Mode / 1080p / No image enhancers activated.


Average Lag: 3-4 frame delay

Component Standard Mode / 1080p / No image enhancers activated.


Average Lag: 4-6 frame delay

Component GAME mode / 480p.


Average lag: 1-2 frame delay

Notes: results are taken from Samsung 650 Input lag thread ; tests done on these displays in this thread have not been vs CRT's but PC LCD's some of the PC LCD's have been tested vs CRT's and have been shown to be near 0 lag say in the 2-8ms lag range, however most of the tests done have been on an untested Dell LCD monitor that I have yet to find any input lag info on, but appears to be a fast TN panel. Actual Input lag may be 10ms or so higher than they are shown here due to this ; the absolute fastest response on these displays are ONLY on HDMI 2 Labeled as PC and VGA input (any res. supported 1080P & normal PC resolutions NO 720P/480P on VGA) Go read that thread for more detailed results and info on these displays Including what modes disable what picture settings etc. the fastest modes disable many picture controls but not all of them

Panasonic 32" LZ800 HDMI 1080P IPS-Pro panel

1080P Standard mode


0-1 frame delay

1080P Game mode


0-1 frame delay

480i Game mode

1-2 frame delay (closer to 1 than 2 but definitely a bit more lag than 1080p)

notes: this is one the very fastest LCD TV's ever tested, would love to see what panasonic's current TV's test at, it should be around the same as these models. Tested by Mr Deap

LINK TO PHOTOS

Panasonic TC-L32S1 IPS-Pro panel

1080P HDMI


0-1 frame delay in game mode or out does not matter

notes: was tested vs a CRT monitor with an average of 14ms delay of picture with many displaying 0 ms delay, one of the best gaming TV's today for sure, the smooth motion feature appears to just be a scanning backlight and does not impact input lag but appears to show some visible flicker. Tested by hidefLoans

LINK TO PHOTOS

Panasonic TC-L37S1 IPS-Pro panel

1080P HDMI


0-1 frame delay just like its little brother
720p HDMI vs CRT


1 frame delay (13ms) very good result for a non native resolution

notes: this is my new main PC monitor, text is not perfect 100% of the time. these Panny TV's have a strange problem with displaying red and blue text ONLY on dark/black backgrounds, text otherwise is very good once you get the picture settings set right and running cleartype tuner in windows helps some more as well. optimal Sharpness on these Panasonic's is 0-10 at most, the sharpness setting adds edge enhancement at anything over 0. Tested by Myself

LINK TO PHOTOS

Panasonic 32" TC-L32X1 (720p) IPS-Pro panel

720p HDMI vs LCD monitor tested to have 2ms lag


0 input lag

notes: this is a very well done test using a good camera and can show how consistent your results can get once you have a good camera setup correctly for these tests. very good job Saiyanjin2. If you take a look at the you tube video in his post and you pause it you can see that the rotating frame ticker to the right of the counter is actually AHEAD of the TN pc monitor indicating that the panasonic is slightly faster than the TN in pixel response time! Tested by Saiyanjin2

LINK TO PHOTOS


Here's a youtube video of his tests




Toshiba 40xf550u likely to be a VA panel just like my Toshiba but is unknown

Game mode on via HDMI


1-2 Frame Delay

Game mode OFF via HDMI


3-4 Frame Delay

Notes: this set does let you make pq adjustments in game mode over hdmi/component. Results are vs a CRT display TV was not at native resolution but was not upscaling the picture so it does not matter as the scalier was not active. Tested by kumquatsrus

LINK TO PHOTOS

Sharp LC52E77U Sharp's ASV Panel a variation of VA tech only found in Sharp TV's

480i GAME MODE ON

AV Mode: Game

Fine Motion Enhanced: On

Active Contrast: On

Lag: 2 frames

1080p GAME MODE ON

AV Mode: Game

Fine Motion Enhanced: On

Active Contrast: On

Lag: less than 1 frame

results taken from this webpage , photos of the test are there as well ad more tests out of game mode and it appears he used a laptop LCD as his control but that should be very fast as they are normally TN panels, this model Sharp does not have their "Vyper Drive" game mode like some other model's so its probably safe to assume that the models with Vyper Drive will perform as good and maybe better with lower resolutions but i've yet to come across evidence that shows this so be aware


Panasonic 50X1 Plasma

1280 X 720


2 frames delayed

notes: TV is 1366 x 768 native, it will display this resolution over HDMI but unfortunately my CRT monitor would not display it so i had to use the lower resolution

35ms input lag, actual input lag could be lower at the panel's native resolution but as most 720p video games will be outputting 1280 x 720 it does not really matter

as usual with Panasonic TV's they do not reduce lag in game mode, it is simply another picture mode on the TV, test was done VS a CRT and performed by Myself


LINK TO PHOTO

NEC 3215 (32" LCD commercial display)pretty likely to be an IPS panel based on performance and its 178 degree rated viewing angles

1440 x 900 (native res is 1366x768)


1 frame delay

notes: tested vs an LCD monitor model Samsung 942B, This is not a mainstream TV set but rather a Commercial display/TV its 720p (fine for 32" unless you plan to use as a normal PC monitor) and it has no speakers and only a few inputs (VGA and DVI input i believe) tested by Zenith DTT900

LINK TO PHOTOS

Vizio 32L10A 720p LCD TV

720p HDMI 1 3 frames delayed

720p HDMI 2 & 3 2 frames delayed

notes: tested vs a CRT. HDMI 1 apparently has 1 frame more lag than 2 and 3, never seen this happen before on a TV but when your dealing with lower end brands you never know what kind of odd stuff comes up. tested by bahnzo

LINK TO PHOTOS

LG 37LH20 720p IPS panel

720p 2 frames delayed (25ms roughly)

480i 3 frames delayed (48ms)

notes: tested vs CRT's. lots more information on this TV is availible in the excelent report posted by wondras the link is below this line.

LINK TO PHOTOS

The following models are European TV's tested by an Italian review site


Lag numbers are listed in Standard mode then Game mode


Remember 1 frame= 16.6ms and they performed these tests on a laptop with an inaccurate timer program so +10ms input lag should be added for a more realistic number on these results



Blue area TV's may be ok for some people but not good enough for the most demanding gamers

Panasonic TC-L37U22 LG IPS panel

1080p 2-1/2 frames delayed (42ms)

notes: tested vs a CRT by igomadness. iamdanwilliamson has also tested this model vs an LCD and came up with 32ms, further evidence that Tests done with PC LCD monitors need 10ms added to them to be close to accurate

LINK TO PHOTOS

LG LH90 LGD IPS panel more than likely user did not state the size of his TV but it should not matter

1280x1024 not scaling the image


2 frames delayed

tested vs an LCD monitor so lag is likely to be 1/2-1 frame more than tested. his picture settings in the test were "ISF/Expert 1 with Local Dimming ON" , this TV should perform at least 1 frame better if he put it into game mode i would guess but he does not want to find out for us
thanks for the test result either way though rahzel


LINK TO PHOTOS


Samsung 55C7000 S panel (SQ01) S-LCD S-PVA panel

1080p HDMI/DVI 1 labeled PC 9 frames delayed 156ms input lag!

1080p HDMI/DVI 1 labeled PC LED motion plus ON! (not AMP) 2 frames delayed! (31ms)

notes: does show potential for having very good input lag with the correct settings at 1080p, input lag is likely to be worse, possibly much worse if not in 1080p or not in the special samsung PC mode that only works on ONE HDMI input so be warned. for this reason and the lack of using a CRT for the test i'm sticking it in the blue section tested by DarkGSR

LINK TO PHOTOS


Sony 32" XBR6 (205r fw) 1080p HDMI S-LCD made S-PVA panel confirmed by myself (its my TV!) i took the back cover off to check it

Photo mode 1080p


2-3 frames delay

Video mode W/game mode 1080p


2-3 frames delay

Video mode W/O game mode 1080p


2-3 frames delay

VGA @ 1280 X 1024 (TV is not scaling the picture)


2-3 frames delay

720p via Component Game mode on


2-3 frames delay

480i Svideo game mode on


2-3 frames delay


Note: The Sony's WILL allow changing of more picture controls in game mode, only setting Photo mode will disable cinemotion/motionflow and noise reduction settings, VGA mode is the most limited input on the display but you can adjust backlight, brightness and contrast in VGA, this TV was tested vs a CRT monitor. Tested by Myself

LINK TO PHOTOS

Samsung 46" A550 720P HDMI VA panel of some sort it could be a S-PVA or a MVA due to samsungs use of 2 different brand panels in their TV's

Normal mode 720p


2-3 frame delay

Game mode 720p


2-3 frame delay

Normal-labeled as PC 720p


2-3 frame delay

Notes: display is 1080p native, user couldn't test vs CRT at 1080p due to CRT resolution incompatibility

LINK TO PHOTOS

Samsung 46A550 1080P

1080P (game mode on? does not say in post)


2-3 frame delay

Tested by clicq

LINK TO PHOTOS

Toshiba 40xv645u HDMI 1080p in game mode took the back cover off my set to see what panel it had it is made by samsung (not S-LCD) and is made in china definitely a VA panel

Average lag 1-2 frames delayed (27ms averaged over 11 pictures 34/20 HIGH/LOW results) see notes for reason why its not in the green section

Game mode disables 120hz (duh) most picture controls are active still except NR stuff and Resolution+ and the nice thing is the TV will save separate picture mode settings for the same input making it easy and fast to switch from a movie mode to a game mode for PS3 owners/PC users wanting to have 120hz sometimes Text on this TV when used with a PC is some of the best i've ever seen very sharp and zero noise. In game/PC mode color gradient tests on all 3 primary colors show extreme color banding problems, color accuracy is definitely impaired greatly when in these modes on this TV making it OK for gaming but bad for PC use in these modes if you care about color accuracy furthermore having 120hz turned off this TV exhibits visible pixel smearing with dark images moving over an even darker background. interestingly enough i was only able to see this happen using a test designed to create smearing, in real world use I never saw this happen but if you play any games that are very dark I have no doubt you will see this happen if the set is in game mode/out of 120hz mode and for this reason i'm sticking in into the Gray area rather than the best section even though its input lag performance is good enough to be in the best section Tested by Myself

LINK TO PHOTOS


LG LH30 AUO VA Panel

1080P


2-3 frames delayed (30-50ms lag)

LINK TO PHOTOS

LG used to put their own S-IPS panels in these TV's in models manufactured in the first half of 2009 but sometime in the middle of 2009 they stopped doing that and put AUO VA panels into them and the input lag went up to sony/samsung levels, if your lucky enough to find one with an LGD made IPS panel they have very low input lag like panasonic IPS TV's


here is proof of this from forum member Odysseus18

The following models are European TV's tested by an Italian review site


Lag numbers are listed in Standard mode then Game mode


Remember 1 frame= 16.6ms and they performed these tests on a laptop with an inaccurate timer program so +10ms input lag should be added for a more realistic number on these results

WORST Gaming TV's tested so far

Vizio SV472XVT likely uses an LG 47" IPS panel because thats the only LCD made in that size AFAIK

VGA 1080p - min 54ms (3.25 frames), average 69ms (4 frames).

HDMI 1080p all advanced image processing options OFF - min 61ms (3.5-ish frames), average 67ms (4 frames).

HDMI 1080p all advanced image processing options ON and maxed out - min 59ms (3.5 frames), average 65ms (4 frames).

Composite 480i - I didn't test this with SMTT but using the Wii in this mode was almost unplayable. Horrible input lag. Avoid at all costs (use the component cable instead).

Component 480p - As soon as I switched the Wii to use a component cable and ran in 480p it felt just like the XBox 360 in 1080p (i.e. about 3-4 frames of input lag).

notes: Tested vs a CRT. it appears that even though these Vizio TV's use an LCD panel that has been shown to have low lag Vizio's poor implementation of the mainboard hardware/software is creating non-defeatable input lag because this panel when in LG and probably Toshiba TV's that use them as well have much less input lag and preform good. Tested by ninjapowered

LINK TO PHOTOS

Samsung LN52B630 tested vs a 17inch CRT monitor VA panel of some sort it could be a S-PVA or a MVA due to samsungs use of 2 different brand panels in their TV's

VGA input 1920 x 1080


3-4 frame delay

HDMI1 DVI game mode OFF


6 frames delayed

HDMI1 DVI game mode ON


3-4 frame delay

notes: "I was running my pc with a millisecond clock in clone mode. MSI 9400GT video card with HDMI,VGA,DVI. I was using a Canon A570Is camera. I found I had to use a 125 second exposure (ASA800) to get the picture. With a higher shutter speed (500) the CRT monitor displayed a moving black bar which usually covered the clock.


AMP set to Off,Dynamic Contrast set to Off"


LINK TO PHOTOS

Sony 52EX701 Appears to use Sharp's new X-Gen LCD panel

VGA in at 1024 x 768


5 frames delayed


HDMI in at 1024 x 768


5 frames delayed


owner tested it vs a CRT monitor and for the moment at least only tested it at this low resolution so its part of the cause of the lag but it's still lagging too much to account for simple scalier lag that normally averages at 10-20ms input lag at most, hopefully he will attempt to test at a higher resolution soon so we can see if lower numbers are possible but i doubt it will get into the gamer friendly range at this point. Tested by MetalAlien


here's his youtube video of the test, he used a high speed capable camera for the test


link to the owners posts regarding this test

Samsung 32C450 720p CMO Panel

1360x768 HDMI


3-4 frames delayed (50-60ms lag)

was tested vs a 16" CRT monitor by Odysseus18

LINK TO PHOTOS

Sony EX500 likely to be a VA panel either AUO or S-LCD

not sure what resolution was used 5.5 frames delayed, 94ms input lag


here's a youtube video showing how bad the input lag is on this TV



Insignia NS-32LCD-09 who cares what panel it had it was terrible



Avoid at all costs, I owned this TV briefly before i Knew about input lag and how to test it but I can tell you that when i had it connected via VGA at 720P (its native res) it looked ok picture wise but input lag in windows with mouse movements were EXTREMELY apparent. If i had to guess it lags at least in the 80-100 MS range maybe even higher it was very bad !! not fit for gaming ever

It should pretty much go without saying that you should never buy a cheapo brand TV if you want a TV with low input lag, major players like sony and samsung cannot even get good lag numbers so its pretty unlikely that any cheap off brand or best buy house brand model TV is going to perform good input lag wise, Vizio may be the only exception to this rule but i've heard very mixed results on how they perform input lag wise ranging from good to terrible


The following models are European TV's tested by an Italian review site



Lag numbers are listed in Standard mode then Game mode


Remember 1 frame= 16.6ms and they performed these tests on a laptop with an inaccurate timer program so +10ms input lag should be added for a more realistic number on these results

 
See less See more
4 11
  • Like
Reactions: EmmaDarknet
#77 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by clicq /forum/post/16183469


How does your BD player determine the audio delay? Does it just take the information from the TV or are you setting this by hand?


The input delay, if it's bad enough and not compensated for by some other mechanism, can definitely affect movies in that the audio and video may be out of sync, though it's often hard to tell unless it's really bad.

I have to manually pick what to set the delay to. It ranges from 0ms - 120ms.
 
#79 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by meh :-| /forum/post/16183672


I have to manually pick what to set the delay to. It ranges from 0ms - 120ms.

I guess it's ok to get in the ballpark, but there's a lot of subjectivity that shouldn't be there for a reliable test.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viche /forum/post/16188190


Hey does anyone know if the PS3 or Fios Box offer this audio delay option?

The PS3 doesn't have the option, but you shouldn't need it if you're using HDMI... if you're using optical, a lot of receivers have an audio delay option.
 
#81 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by meh :-| /forum/post/16189725


My BD player is connected by HDMI and there's still an audio lag unless I specify a 50ms delay.

then one of the devices does not support auto voice sync
 
#83 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by clicq /forum/post/16189358


I guess it's ok to get in the ballpark, but there's a lot of subjectivity that shouldn't be there for a reliable test.




The PS3 doesn't have the option, but you shouldn't need it if you're using HDMI... if you're using optical, a lot of receivers have an audio delay option.

Yeah, problem is I have a Marantz Sound Bar speaker that only supports HDMI 1.1 (no auto lip sync). It has it's own build in amp and does not require a receiver. I've been on the verge of buying a TV for forever. The plan is to have the PS3 and Fios Box decode the audio and pass PCM audio to the TV. Guess I'm screwed a far as lip syncing is concerned?
 
#84 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by frito /forum/post/16190435


then one of the devices does not support auto voice sync

I'm not sure I'm understanding this.. If lag is caused by processing on the TV, how would auto voice sync even help? Does the TV talk back to the originating device and tell it "hey I'm processing which causes me get out of sync by 50ms, so please delay audio by 50ms."


My BD player is connected direct to the TV btw.
 
#85 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by meh :-| /forum/post/16191164


I'm not sure I'm understanding this.. If lag is caused by processing on the TV, how would auto voice sync even help? Does the TV talk back to the originating device and tell it "hey I'm processing which causes me get out of sync by 50ms, so please delay audio by 50ms."


My BD player is connected direct to the TV btw.

Idk the specifics of how it works but that is pretty much it yeah


heres a link with more info on HDMI 1.3 lip sync
http://www.abccables.com/info-lip-sync.html


BTW, if your BD is connected to your TV the TV should be adjusting the sound delay already, most TV's do this really only becomes a problem when you use external audio devices beyond your TV's speakers and audio outputs


ie. plugging in optical digital into a Reciver directly, etc.
 
#86 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by frito /forum/post/16191191


Idk the specifics of how it works but that is pretty much it yeah


heres a link with more info on HDMI 1.3 lip sync
http://www.abccables.com/info-lip-sync.html


BTW, if your BD is connected to your TV the TV should be adjusting the sound delay already, most TV's do this really only becomes a problem when you use external audio devices beyond your TV's speakers and audio outputs


ie. plugging in optical digital into a Reciver directly, etc.

As far as I can tell, the only devices that incorporate HDMI lip syncing are HDMI 1.3 receivers. I own an XBR6 and if my TV doesnt automatically adjust for audio delay then I highly doubt that most TVs do this either.
 
#87 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by meh :-| /forum/post/16192242


As far as I can tell, the only devices that incorporate HDMI lip syncing are HDMI 1.3 receivers. I own an XBR6 and if my TV doesnt automatically adjust for audio delay then I highly doubt that most TVs do this either.

I see very slight lip desync on my 32xbr6 but I have my external devices, my PC PS3 and XB360 all connected to my Reciver directly via optical digital


I've never seen desync with the TV's built in tuner and i'm pretty sure it was in sync when i ran audio though the TV as well I suppose i could easily test that though
 
#88 ·
Yeah well I just took a quick look at TV going though my digital cable STB non-HD STB, hooked up via composite video the laggiest possible situation on my TV, tested in game mode at 50ms lag, this was not in game mode so its higher than that even,


it is connected like this

analog Audio > TV analog audio out > older Sony Reciver with no sync adjustments whatsoever


Lip Sync is better than if i watch a BD on my PS3!


The TV is definitely correcting for the input lag before it send the analog audio out


I'll have to figure out a way to test HDMI audio later
 
#89 ·
Here's an easy way to test. connect your TV directly to a BD player with an HDMI cable. from the BD player use optical or coax out to a receiver. Play a BD and audio will go to the TV speakers and the reveiver's speakers. If the TV is inserting an audio delay then there should be a slight echo effect.
 
#90 ·
will not work with a ps3 i dont think its one or the other on it not both
 
#92 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viche /forum/post/16206674


So if I were to feed audio directly from a PS3 or Fios box to the TV, I can then send an optical cable to my sound bar and the TV will handle audio synch?


Why didn't the Marantz people know about this?

yep most TV's will compensate for the lag, I say most because I owned a crappy insignia TV for a short while and it did not do this it had major input lag and everything was out of sync except TV via its tuner
 
#93 ·
Hey, I posted this in the SONY BRAVIA 2009 Line up Thread, but thought it would be of interest here:

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/sony-...0081124136.htm


This is from a UK review of the Z4500 (which is supposedly the 52XBR7 here):

"We’re not sure if the theoretically faster LCD panel played a part here, but the input lag we measured on the Sony KDL40Z4500 was typically 15-20ms lower than that on the W4500, even with [Motionflow] engaged. Of course, the playing field would be levelled if [Game/Text Mode] was activated: the input lag on both TVs would drop to a mouthwatering 0-10ms, which – alongside vibrant colours and exceptional detail – paved the way for an utterly immersive gaming experience.


The downside is that [Game/Text Mode] automatically deactivates the 200Hz Motionflow system on Sony KDL40Z4500, but we’ll choose a lag-free gaming response over a slight reduction in motion blur any day, particularly for reflex-dependent multiplayer first-person shooters such as Call Of Duty 5: World At War."



Why don't the US 08 or 09 sets have a game mode that reverts to 60 hz and gives you 0 - 10 ms delay?
 
#94 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by clicq /forum/post/16092364


Here's a test of the Panasonic LZ800 from that owner's thread. Seems to be either 16ms or 30ms...

HDMI 1080P, 720P, 480P Progressive: 15ms ~1 frame delay

S-video 480i: 30ms ~2frames delay


Setting won't change number on this panel. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbvreeOk7PA (screw the pics, here a video)


The worst part is that I found out that my old CRT TV (JVC 27FA44) actually also lag of 15ms but also fall of too on the same number as the CRT VGA screen.


In the end of the whole story, the TC-32LZ800 is shiny even the turned off which is a good thing. :p
 
#95 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viche /forum/post/16207195


Hey, I posted this in the SONY BRAVIA 2009 Line up Thread, but thought it would be of interest here:

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/sony-...0081124136.htm


This is from a UK review of the Z4500 (which is supposedly the 52XBR7 here):

"We're not sure if the theoretically faster LCD panel played a part here, but the input lag we measured on the Sony KDL40Z4500 was typically 15-20ms lower than that on the W4500, even with [Motionflow] engaged. Of course, the playing field would be levelled if [Game/Text Mode] was activated: the input lag on both TVs would drop to a mouthwatering 0-10ms, which - alongside vibrant colours and exceptional detail - paved the way for an utterly immersive gaming experience.


The downside is that [Game/Text Mode] automatically deactivates the 200Hz Motionflow system on Sony KDL40Z4500, but we'll choose a lag-free gaming response over a slight reduction in motion blur any day, particularly for reflex-dependent multiplayer first-person shooters such as Call Of Duty 5: World At War."



Why don't the US 08 or 09 sets have a game mode that reverts to 60 hz and gives you 0 - 10 ms delay?

Actually they do what do you think they mean when they say most of the processing is turned off huh??? Think about it the frame interpolation technology can't be run unless the technology that is doing the '120hz rate' on the TV is on.


When in Game Mode the motionflow or auto motion plus depending on the TV is grayed out and can't be turned on because the process that allowed the TV to be run in '120hz' is turned off.


Now just cause it goes back to like 60hz doesn't mean all of the TVs will be 10ms or less. Check out the 60hz TVs of 08 when their Game Mode is on it is not less than 10ms or if anything you see it pretty close to the 120hz TVs when both are in Game Mode.


Exception is the PC mode with something like the A650,750,850,860 from Samsung which gets to like 10ms of input lag or so but there is more processing that is turned off with PC mode which is noticeable because of the image quality is much lower (level of detail).
 
#97 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viche /forum/post/16207790


It's 120 hz even when motion processing is turned off. I'm just wondering how they are getting such low lag times vs what people in here are getting.


I'm not sure I can trust any of the measurements here. I had my tv set in standard mode (all post processing turned off) and when I did the GH calibration test, I got
 
#98 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5150Joker /forum/post/16207849


I'm not sure I can trust any of the measurements here. I had my tv set in standard mode (all post processing turned off) and when I did the GH calibration test, I got
 
#99 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by KVW /forum/post/16208409


the problem with using GH's latencies adjuster is that it requires a human's input to successfully, and accurately catch a puck within its target ring. This is simply just too much of a imprecise variable.


Isn't this precisely what we are measuring in a gaming environment? A real human response to input lag, not a synthetically measured one. I've been gaming for 25 years and was heavily into competition gaming at one point for FPS games so I'm also sensitive to lag.
 
#100 ·
I have been going through all the different forum posts on the site and been researching about the lag on on some Samsung sets. I am about to purchase a tv in the next couple days and need your help on which one. I am going with either the LN40B550 or LN37B650. I decided to post in here because console gaming(360,PS3) is a top priority for me.


1.)Is the lag on these pretty equal?

2.)Is the 60Hz better for gaming then the 120Hz?

3.)Will AMP ruin the games


Any advice would be greatly appreciated
 
#101 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5150Joker /forum/post/16208907


Isn't this precisely what we are measuring in a gaming environment? A real human response to input lag, not a synthetically measured one. I've been gaming for 25 years and was heavily into competition gaming at one point for FPS games so I'm also sensitive to lag.

I say the test looses credibility because of the human factor - you say because of the human factor it's more relevant.


If GH's reported input lag is sufficient enough for you, by all means. However you don't want to be fooling yourself at the same time. If you take two displays that are known to have a large difference in input lag and try GH's input lag text, they should reflect that known difference. However if your button pressing happened to be a little bit off on one of those tests, it can show a laggier panel as faster than the known faster panel and that's where that test looses all credibility.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top