AVS Forum banner

Official JVC RS20 / HD750 Calibration and CMS thread (NEW FIRMWARE V1.1)

218K views 2K replies 137 participants last post by  rollon1980 
#1 ·
[EDIT 06-05-09: I have edited this first post to add some info from the first calibration thread and to make it a useful table of content to the new calibration and CMS thread]


This thread is a continuation of the original official RS20/hd750 calibration and CMS thread here http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post15314888 .


As the old calibration thread is mostly obsolete regarding CMS calibration with the arrival of the new firmware, we have decided to start afresh!


First things first, you need to upgrade the firmware before using the tips available in this thread.


A - NEW FIRMWARE

Where to get the firmware update (and common installation issues): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post16355768

CAUTION: the new firmware erases ALL settings, so if you have general settings or calibration settings you wish to keep, make sure you make note of them before upgrading.


There is a wealth of knowledge regarding greyscale and gamma calibration in the original calibration thread. So here is a list of the most important posts which are still mostly relevant with the new firmware:


B - GREYSCALE: (from original thread, but info still relevant)

Before we get into CMS settings, the first thing to do is to get the best possible greyscale using only color temps adjustments, as this will make a huge difference with THX (and other presets). As already reported, some excellent tips are available here to achieve this from Mark Petersen Official JVC RS20 / HD750 Calibration and CMS thread - Page 22 - AVS Forum and also from Googer and others in the rest of the thread, here is one of Googer's great posts about gamma: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...#post15522847]


C - TWEAKED THX (from original thread, but info still relevant)

Once you have a custom color temp that gives you as perfect a greyscale as possible, the next step is to select the THX preset and enter the service mode (up/down/right/left/enter as fast as possible, either on the remote or the pj). [DISCLAIMER: be very careful when in this mode, you enter it at your own risks, if you make a mistake, don't blame me!]. You can then select a different color temp (for example the custom one you've just tweaked
), and this will be the color temp used by THX. You can now exit the service mode. This will make a HUGE difference to the ootb THX preset, as it will use a greyscale which is likely to be pretty good from 30 IRE up to 100 IRE, instead of a greyscale which is quite flat but off badly over the whole range, whether in normal or high lamp. More info about achieving this here Official JVC RS20 / HD750 Calibration and CMS thread - Page 29 - AVS Forum


If you like this "tweaked THX" preset, which is very close to rec709 - although slightly undersaturated for some - with a standard gamma, you can stop here and enjoy your PJ. If you do find it undersaturated, you can add anything from 1 to 12 - depending on your taste - to the general color control (I personally add 1-5 depending on source). That's it. Job done.


If you want to go one step further, and be able to use a custom gamma, sharpness and detail enhancement controls and adjust the gamut to Rec709, SMPTE-C or to your own taste, then have fun with the next section which is mostly about custom CMS settings...


D - CUSTOM SETTINGS, REPORTS and CALIBRATION TIPS with the NEW FIRMWARE


As members post reports/settings and calibration tips in the thread, I'll try to update this section with the most significant contributions (in chronological order).

Please let me know if I have forgotten something or if I get sloppy updating...


Reports from the pros:

GregR : http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post16360087

Tom Huffman: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post16383023

Tom Huffman#2: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post16431819

Settings:

Manni01 (1.4 gain screen): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post16365507

JeffY: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post16371803

Karrih: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post16380924

008: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post16383359

Nelson4u: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post16388557

Ignace: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post16389657

LovingDVD: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6#post16482286

Lawguy: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post16428562

Manni01 (1.2 gain screen): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post16431351

MarcelW: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post16433669

Lawguy LT vs i1Pro http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post16438408

RickS (HDMI Enhanced): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post16630004

Manni01: back to 1.1 gain/new lamp, and HDMI Enhanced, settings for Rec709 and SMPTE-C http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post16662220

Manni01: updated Rec709 and SMPTE-C calibrations, along with a PAL calibration: http://www.avforums.com/forums/dlp-l...ml#post9767111

Calibration Tips:

Classic beginner's mistake and link to Tom Huffman's CMS calibration tutorial and GregR's calculator thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post16370193

How to use filters to check brightness (LovingDVD): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post16372917

When/why NOT to use filters (GregR & Tom Huffman): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post16373717 and http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post16380651

dE discussion: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post16374865

Tom Huffman's spreadsheet for CIELUV: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post16378927

GregR's DisplayCalibration Calculator: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post16382042

Get a screenshot in HCFR: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post16383268

Which USB cable for the firmware upgrade?: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post16383437

Training a meter to another in HCFR: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post16384494

Adjusting greyscale (GregR): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post16387960

Link to Calibration for Dummies: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post16402839

Use of filter and calibration tips (Darinp2): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post16431819

Saturation levels explained (Tom Huffman): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post16439382

Sharpness/focus adjustment tips (GregR / LeDahu / Deanbob): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post16689752

Great tips/tools for gamma calibration (LovingDVD / LeDahu): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post17017488

Gamma tweaking V1.2 (english translation and VERY IMPORTANT SPECIAL PROCEDURE): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post17045339

Gamma tweaking V2 (Le Dahu): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6#post17060116

Contrast and RGB (Tom Huffman et al): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post17150298

REST OF INITIAL POST:


I have done a first attempt with the new firmware, and the news is mostly good!


- The range for the controls has been extended from -60 to 60 (instead of -30 to 30), which gives enough range to dial the gamut perfectly without touching the general color control. Well done JVC!


- The linearity is good but not perfect. Most colors stay where they should, but green seems to be a bit oversaturated at 75% when calibrating at 100%. Nothing compared to the first firmware, but still not perfect. [edit: this was due to an error on my side, there is NO LINEARITY problem with the new firmware].


- I had only time for a quick calibration today, so I'll post more later. I attach my HCFR files for those who want to have a look at the details (EDIT: I used a brand new i1pro to calibrate).


If you want to try my settings (only after upgrading the firmware), here they are:


[EDIT: please do not use these settings, I and others have posted updated settings, see links above].


Contrast=0

Brightness=0

Color=0

Tint=0


Color temp (new lamp, probably not useful for most of you)

Gain R=-24, G=0, B=-54

Offset R=-1 G=-3 B=0


CMS (H,S,B)

Red -4 -23 7

Yellow 22 -44 38

Green -5 -39 44

Cyan -3 -48 39

Blue 37 -8 -4

Magenta -6 0 -3


I didn't have time to do any fine-tuning on gamma etc...

 

New firmware.zip 153.3935546875k . file



 

Attachments

See less See more
7
#227 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd /forum/post/16375257


However I believe it [filters] is valid for checking/correcting the color decoder.

Yes, color filters can be used for adjusting the color decoder, IF you use the projector's native primaries since in that case the luminance (Y) of the primary, complementary, and reference white colors are all strictly related, i.e. Y(White) = Y(R) + Y(G) + Y(B), Y(Yellow) = Y(R) + Y(G), Y(Magenta) = Y(R) + Y(B), and Y(Cyan) = Y(G) + Y(B), when the magnitude of the RGB signals is R = G = B. The color filters visually verify that R = G = B if you input RGB color bar signals. So when you instead input YCbCr encoded color bar signals, the filters allow you to verify that the YCbCr signals are correctly decoded back to RGB signals where R = G = B.
 
#228 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregr /forum/post/16375017


Then I don't know why Manni01 got different results. My calculator has been up for months and compared against other CIELUV programs so I don't think there are any errors, other than possible negligible differences that can occur from using different precision arithmetic.

Thanks for the explanation Greg. I couldn't find which formula the calculator or HCFR was using. Thanks to Tom for the comments and to Dan for the confirmation that HCFR uses the same formula.


Tom was right, is is primirily due to the rounding that HCFR does in displaying the information. I cut the data from HCFR and pasted it to Excel, and then to your calculator with 5 digits precision (I couldn't do it directly). The differences are gone for the primaries, but the secondaries still show a small difference.


This is probably negligeable in regard to how it can influence a calibration, I was just curious to understand why it wasn't identical given the fact it should use the same formula, and why it should affect the secondaries and not the primaries.


I attach the full numbers below.


 
#229 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman /forum/post/16376119


The discrepancies are very small.


The source is the fact that HCFR rounds its numbers to 3 decimals for display, but it uses the unseen extra digits in the dE calculation. When I used four digits I got exactly the same results. If you typed the 4-digit values into Greg's app, I'll bet you would get the same values as well.

Thanks for figuring that out Tom, and for your input.


Dan
 
#230 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by stereomandan /forum/post/16376994


Thanks for figuring that out Tom, and for your input.


Dan

So Dan, you would say the small differences in secondaries (up to 5%) and not in primaries (identical) even with 5 digits accuracy (see post above your last) are normal?
 
#231 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 /forum/post/16377158


So Dan, you would say the small differences in secondaries (up to 5%) and not in primaries (identical) even with 5 digits accuracy (see post above your last) are normal?


Well, the way that you are looking at the error (up to 5%) makes it sound worse than what your eyes are able to notice.


Yes, there is a 5% error from one dE calculation to the other, but the overall difference in dE is only 0.2 at worst case from one calculation to the next. A dE of 1 is barely noticeable under the most scutinous viewing, so a dE of 0.2 will not be noticeable in the least. Hope that helps.


Dan
 
#233 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill /forum/post/16371030


I understand that all settings go back to their initial default values after loading in the new FW, but what about the mod many made in the Service Menu that changed the THX color temp to that in User 1? Is that maintained, or does it need to be re-done?

Feedback on THX Trick:

Guys, I know this report is late --but last night I also found that the THX Color temperature trick does need to be redone (set to my Jason's calibrated Custom 1 setting).


However, with my bulb at 470 hours, I now find the Color Temperature for Jason's original low power mode has visibly drifted toward green, and at high power it has drifted toward red. I also have measured a 1 stop loss, (50% loss in brightness) due to bulb aging to this point, so I now need to run at high power.


From previous comments it looks like this is all consistent/normal with what others are finding. Does this sound correct?


KT
 
#234 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman /forum/post/16378927


Here's an open spreadsheet that calculates CIELUV and makes the math explicit.

Thanks very much Tom, I'll use this for my next calibration.


I've spent most of the afternoon installing the new material for my screen (Seymour AV XD Center Stage) and moving my speakers behind it, and I hope to be able to calibrate tonight.
 
#235 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by stereomandan /forum/post/16378647


Well, the way that you are looking at the error (up to 5%) makes it sound worse than what your eyes are able to notice.


Yes, there is a 5% error from one dE calculation to the other, but the overall difference in dE is only 0.2 at worst case from one calculation to the next. A dE of 1 is barely noticeable under the most scutinous viewing, so a dE of 0.2 will not be noticeable in the least. Hope that helps.


Dan

Thanks Dan, that's what I thought.
 
#236 ·
I am a proud owner and really love my Sony G90 CRT projector used in a 1080p mode. It looks great on a 100" Stewart screen even with 10k+ hrs on the tubes. However, my wife and I are getting tired of looking at a Volkswagon hanging in the rafters. I've read a lot on the forums and everyone raves about the RS20/HD750, but my question is will it be a step up, down, or lateral from the G90.


The LCD sets we have purchased, including high end Sony Bravia to Vizio all look "digital" at some point and handle motion poorly.


I have all the set-up toys to do the job, I just don't want to feel as I have taken a step down.


Comments, please.


John
 
#237 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by netroamer /forum/post/16380021


I am a proud owner and really love my Sony G90 CRT projector used in a 1080p mode. It looks great on a 100" Stewart screen even with 10k+ hrs on the tubes. However, my wife and I are getting tired of looking at a Volkswagon hanging in the rafters. I've read a lot on the forums and everyone raves about the RS20/HD750, but my question is will it be a step up, down, or lateral from the G90.


The LCD sets we have purchased, including high end Sony Bravia to Vizio all look "digital" at some point and handle motion poorly.


I have all the set-up toys to do the job, I just don't want to feel as I have taken a step down.


Comments, please.


John

John -


You might consider posting this in the general RS20 thread since this isn't a calibration issue.

You might also get more "bites" there as well.


Good luck.


Mike
 
#239 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffY /forum/post/16372020


It must be a projector variance, your blue settings are way too dark and a bit purple (especially dark blues) on my projector.

Guys,

For what it is worth---I have loaded in Manni's third attempt and Jeffy's new settings and compared them as objectively as I can by eye, to the THX CMS setup (I have no metering capability). I want to report my findings and have a question on the logic and validity of my conclusion that some of these settings look like they may be transferable to my projector with excellent results.


What I find is that that low saturation/lighter looking blues on Jeffy's settings match THX almost exactly, but Manni's are very clearly darker/or more saturated in appearance. Using THX as a reference, this is the only clear subjective difference I can see viewing many real world reference Video and Film segments I use for such judgments .


I also have been using 2 other objective ways to judge the color accuracy which may -or may not be valid:

1. First it seems to me that if the Color settings in the CMS are calibrated properly that the old standby filter method of setting the Color and Tint controls using the VDE BD disk should ideally yield Tint and Color control settings of exactly zero. Deviations here would indicate that the color CMS performance is not spot on (I am making the assumption that the Color Decoder in the RS20 is accurate). (I should note here that I found the THX mode unexpectedly required a color setting of 5 to satisfy this criteria. All comparisons below were made with this THX setting).


2. Secondly, after the Color and tint controls have been properly set, if Color filters are used with the VDE basics BD test disk to view the color bar pattern for testing color decoder errors.. then the R,G and B color decoders should look perfect (example... all of the primary and secondary colors and white viewed through the red filter should have the same red intensity).


Now I realize that many other criteria for excellent performance of the CMS setting exist ... but it seems to me that these 2 criteria above represent necessary but not sufficient conditions for a properly functioning CMS.

That said I found all of the CMS work around settings developed on the original Calibration site did not meet the 2 criteria above (even though they produced very reasonable -good looking images and helped us get through the "broken CMS era.) Since the CMS was defective this could be expected.


But now with the new version of the CMS firmware - and with simply copying in settings arrived at by Calibrations performed on projectors other than mine -I find that the CMS performance now unexpectedly comes extremely close to satisfying the above two "necessary" criteria.


Specifically, I found that Jeffy's new CMS settings produce almost perfect Color decoding while simultaneously satisfying the Color /Tint controls setting of 0. In other words Jeffy's settings seem to satisfy both of my Necessary conditions (and as discussed above - the less saturated blues match the THX blues perfectly).


I found Manni's 3rd attemt produces near perfect Color decoder behavior- but only if I set the Color control at +10 (Tint is fine at 0). And as mentioned above less saturated blues do not match the THX blues) So, at least on my projector, this case comes close to satisfying the 2 necessary conditions.


So my question is this.. do these results indicate a high probability that Jeffy's settings installed on my projector, results in a reasonable CMS setup?

If checked with, lets say, Jeffy's Calibration meter and software, would he end up with a pretty good Calibration report..or is it simply not the case that the 2 criteria I have set out are sufficient to allow drawing such a conclusion?


Thoughts on this would be appreciated.

And many thanks to Manni and Jeffy for contribution of their new settings.


KT
 
#240 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by KTTV Images /forum/post/16380542


I also have been using 2 other objective ways to judge the color accuracy which may -or may not be valid:

1. First it seems to me that if the Color settings in the CMS are calibrated properly that the old standby filter method of setting the Color and Tint controls using the VDE BD disk should ideally yield Tint and Color control settings of exactly zero. Deviations here would indicate that the color CMS performance is not spot on (I am making the assumption that the Color Decoder in the RS20 is accurate). (I should note here that I found the THX mode unexpectedly required a color setting of 5 to satisfy this criteria. All comparisons below were made with this THX setting).

See Greg R's comments below about using filters with pseudo primaries.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=206


In such cases, filters can yield grossly inaccurate recommendations. Not a good idea.
 
#242 ·
Here are my "clueless tweaking to make i1LT happy" results for this evening. I promise to read dummies guide later. Gamma was 2.3


R 16,-27, 12

Y 6, -48, 37

G 5, -45, 39

C 2, -49, 39

B 36, -18, 4

M 1, -30, 15


HCFR "primary and secondary colors" table currently looks like this

rgbycmw
0.6400.3010.1490.4190.2240.3210.313
0.3270.6000.0640.5060.3320.1520.329
7.89127.6552.81132.32828.4799.91836.990
2.32.62.13.12.41.9
0.0030.0010.0040.0010.0030.002
+0.3 %+4.5 %+5.3 %-5.8 %-2.2 %-5.9 %

I am slightly surprised that the end result looks ok with real material too, although I haven't done much viewing yet. It will be interesting to see what results I get when I measure this tomorrow. If I get the same results I guess I could tweak Y's little more.
 
#243 ·
KT, I think there is a fair bit of variance between projectors but nowhere near as much as you get with grey scale where the lamp has a huge influence. Since I know my colour meter isn't accurate I used Manni's CMS settings as a starting point. I believe I'm a pretty good judge of hue. Ramps and filters help dial in saturation and brightness. Manni, has offered to lend me his i1pro at some point so I'll be able to see exactly how far I'm off. In any case I only take rec 709 as a point of reference, I think it's possible to get a few percent extra performance from the display by not follwoing it ridgedly (all IMO of course).
 
#244 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffY /forum/post/16380859


Filters on the own maybe, but using a combination of (imperfect) colour meter, test screens, filters and eyes you can do better than an inprecise colour meter on it's own.

All filters do is give you a visual cue about how to set the brightness of the primaries and the hues of the secondaries. They might have some marginal value with secondary hues on some displays, but even inexpensive colorimeters are quite accurate in their measurement of color brightness.
 
#245 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman /forum/post/16381001


All filters do is give you a visual cue about how to set the brightness of the primaries and the hues of the secondaries. They might have some marginal value with secondary hues on some displays, but even inexpensive colorimeters are quite accurate in their measurement of color brightness.

My Spyder 3 is massively off on blue brightness readings.
 
#246 ·
Holy Moly! Just did the upgrade, successfully, but how THENSE I get with these things. One problem is that I'm a Mac guy, and had to borrow my wife's PC, with which I'm not familiar.


But HELP: I've forgotten how to switch the Color Temp in THX mode to User 1, and can't find the reference. (I know one has to go into the User Menu, and do remember how to do that!) TIA, Bill


Never Mind: I got it (by trial and error!)
 
#248 ·
Do we have a working Link to Gregr's Spreadsheet ? Can't find it here and I thought he posted it on the Accupel Site but can't find it there either .


Thanks in advance,


Scott....................
 
#249 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott_R_K /forum/post/16381591


Do we have a working Link to Gregr's Spreadsheet ? Can't find it here and I thought he posted it on the Accupel Site but can't find it there either .


Thanks in advance,


Scott....................



Go to this link http://www.accupel.com then click on the HDG-4000 Manuals and scroll down to bottom of page to the display calibration calculator.
 
#251 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by stereomandan /forum/post/16378647


Yes, there is a 5% error from one dE calculation to the other, but the overall difference in dE is only 0.2 at worst case from one calculation to the next.

OK, for everyone that was bothered by the 0.1-0.2 dE differences between the various spreadsheets and calculators, I increased the internal precision of the calculations in the Display Calibration Calculator to 16 decimal places !!! That should be accurate enough for government work and keep everyone happy!
The new PC and Mac versions (v1.24) are now posted at www.accupel.com under HDG-4000 Manuals on the left side of the page. (That's either to encourage you to download the HDG-4000 manual and decide that you can't live without one - or I was too lazy to create a separate page for the calculators - you decide.)


I plugged in the data examples in the spreadsheet that Tom posted earlier today in this thread, and you will find there is still a 0.1 dE rounding difference in some dE calculations. So before anyone has a panic attack over an invisible to see 0.1 dE difference, the reason is that Tom put in x,y values for the standard Yellow, Cyan, and Magenta colors that were truncated to 4 decimal places. My calculator actually calculates those values internally to 16 decimal places now, and that is enough to sometimes show a 0.1 dE round-off error in Tom's spreadsheet. Shame on you Tom !!!
I put 5 decimal place x,y values in Tom's spreadsheet, and then it agrees with my calculator for all the examples I tried.


So that's it. I just hated to see everyone so upset by those 0.1, 0.2 dE calculated differences.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top