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Is It Safe To Buy Dual MFWs?

68K views 1K replies 135 participants last post by  KlipschHead281 
#1 ·
I've been a supporter of AV123 for awhile, and the recent issues concerning the company and MLS have really been tough to deal with. I've always found the man and his company to be fair and generous, but I need convincing now. I'm running an Outlaw LFM-1EX, and have been very happy with it. Lately the upgrade bug has bitten, and I've been thinking about getting more subwoofage. The latest sale on MFWs is very tempting, but with all the problems they have had I need to be sure I won't be buying into trouble. I've never had an issue with any sub I purchased, and the thought of problems developing with dual MFWs has me worried. The sale will be over before the new subs ship, so I have no user data to go by. The competition is dual A5-350s from eD, or maybe dual A7s-450s. Wish I could go dual HSU ULS-15s, but that's getting too expensive. Bottom line, is it safe to order MFWs? Is the amp issue really fixed? How about the hum issues? Anything else to worry about, or are these as good a deal as they seem? MLS, are you out there? If you can personally ensure that these subs are all they should be then I will place an order, come on man! You need to get vocal again, it's been too long! Convince me (and everyone else) that the MFWs are the best deal going, and you're sure to sell a boat load.
 
#103 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude /forum/post/16629042


I'm all healed now. Do you need some mental healing?

I think many in here do. I must say, reading these threads for the past several months has had it's amusing moments. With all the jabs, some factual, most not, taken from both sides If I were in the market for a sub wouldn't change my view of the MFW, AV123 or MLS one way or the other.
 
#104 ·
This thread is heading the way of all of the other AV123 threads.


The apologists make excuses.

Others hurl insults.


Basically -- AV123 has demonstrated for YEARS a history of overpromising/underdelivering products, delays of sometimes years, outright lying, etc. If the MFW was the first time...then there wouldn't be this anger. But it certainly is not.


When you combine shoddy products, poor customer service, and suspect business practices...there is no reason to EVER buy that product again.


How people can recommend AV123/MLS at this time is simply unfathomable.
 
#105 ·
I know I'm not quite as prolific a poster here versus other forums, but per the OP's request, I will throw in my suggestion as well.


If it were me and I were in the sub market, I would pass on the MFW.


Will the new amps work? Probably.


But this whole experience has really disenchanted me. Throughout this trying extremely drawn out process I have had several private conversations that have given me cause to further question his business practices.


It's saying something that I'd rather spend more money for equal or less performance than buy another MFW, or any other product with an electrical cord from AV123. There are ever increasing choices where to spend $$ from id companies that don't have the black eye that av123 has.


Again, just imo, ymmv, yada yada, etc....
 
#106 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude /forum/post/16629042


I'm all healed now. Do you need some mental healing?

You're all healed now, you betcha.
My mental health is just fine, but we are off topic, you wouldn't want to get chastised by the forum cop now would you?
 
#107 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnsteph10 /forum/post/16629595


This thread is heading the way of all of the other AV123 threads.


The apologists make excuses.

Others hurl insults.


Basically -- AV123 has demonstrated for YEARS a history of overpromising/underdelivering products, delays of sometimes years, outright lying, etc. If the MFW was the first time...then there wouldn't be this anger. But it certainly is not.


When you combine shoddy products, poor customer service, and suspect business practices...there is no reason to EVER buy that product again.


How people can recommend AV123/MLS at this time is simply unfathomable.

It would probably help if they stuck to getting the issues resolved prior to having these big sales which seem to just feed the anger. But then they have to drum up cash so damned if you do and damned if you don't.


To go back to topic so Stereodude doesn't have an embolism, at this time based on the customer service I have received I would by from them again.


I'm not an apologist, I have never posted anything but my experience with them over a short period. But I do know for the now 8 speakers I have purchased, they have not charged my card until each order shipped and each item was packed well and everything worked.


If they continue to have problems with the new amps, hopefully their warranty takes care of it. I think others feel the same way because they realize the value these speakers have for the money.


So, OP, good luck with your decision, I'm sure whatever you buy will work well for you.
 
#108 ·
I found this rather strange and troublesome.


If MLS can't refund a measly $1100 since last September then how can av123 functions as a company?

I thought a company in av123 caliber should have a strong financial position?

This starts to bother me as a potential customer.


And he has a personal company called The Graham Company?

I don't know what to make of this.


Back to more reading then.


Very strange indeed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NewOrlnsDukie /forum/post/16624828


That being said, I am still waiting on my $1100 worth of refund from Mark, which I've been awaiting since SEPTEMBER of last year. For that reason, I would recommend that any and all dealings w/ AV123 be for in-stock items, and through AV123 ONLY.


I'm not going to pretend -- Mark and I have had numerous correspondences and phone conversations, and I think he means well, but I think that he has had some serious PERSONAL cashflow problems that make me entirely unwilling to recommend anything from his PERSONAL brand (The Graham Company).


My sincere hope is that he turns things around personally, both with his finances as well as his health.
 
#109 ·
Graphicguy,


Thanks again.


Can you tell me which product(s) did MLS design?


I started my reading and found out he was involved in Genesis a long time ago with Arnie Nudell and Paul McGowan but couldn't find any specifics as to what was designed by MLS.


Also, I read up a little on Swan speakers and they seem to be good speakers but also couldn't find any info as to why MLS stopped selling them.


Thanks,


Quote:
Originally Posted by graphicguy /forum/post/16627064


Shis....not a problem. You can find out more about Swan here...

http://www.swanspeaker.com/


They are now sold by this company...

http://www.theaudioinsider.com/


Sounds like you're already familiar with EMOTIVA. They make great products. While I don't have any experience with their speakers, I did have their LMC/LPA gear in my system for a good long while. They did have some teething problems with their LMC pre-pro, but they got them sorted out. Both products are retired, however.


Dan did indeed launch the EMOTIVA brand, along with Lonnie. Early on, EMOTIVA was marketed by AV123, before they went out on their own, including sales and marketing. It's been awhile, but I've had the pleasure of speaking with both Dan and Lonnie. Both great guys. Whenever possible, I always urge anyone to contact the principal's with any of these ID companies to get information instead of speculation....doesn't matter if it's EMOTIVA, or AV123, or any of the other ID companies.


Regarding MLS and AV123, sometimes MLS sends off design work to other respected sources, sometimes his design hand is more involved. Depends on the product. With the MFW, Mark Seaton actually designed it ( http://seatonsound.websitetoolbox.com/post?id=1942660 ). Mark also sells his own, higher end sub, the Seaton Submersive. You can read more about it in this thread.....

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=759877


Older interview (about 5 years), but here's a video interview that should give you some feel for MLS's background....

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/video...k-schifter.mov


Not entirely up-to-date to where AV123 is today, as things have changed a bit (they also build speakers in Cali, Columbia) and some of their dealings in China has changed.


Hope that helps cut through some of the noise. As I said, I urge anyone to call the principals of any of these ID companies to get a better picture of what they're all about.
 
#110 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by KlipschHead281 /forum/post/16630040


It would probably help if they stuck to getting the issues resolved prior to having these big sales which seem to just feed the anger. But then they have to drum up cash so damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Why would you be so quick to gloss over the one relevant thing you have offered?


I think most of us agree that they need to keep having these sales, despite not having reliable products in stock, because they need to drum up cash. The problem with doing business with a company that has to keep drumming up cash is what happens if they fail to get enough cash one of these days? Unless the firm or its employees are big Obama contributors, bye bye company, bye bye pre-payments, bye bye warranty, bye bye upgrades and support.


IT IS NOT SAFE to buy products from a small business that has cash problems. Sure if the product is rock solid and the odds of ever needing warranty work are extremely small you not care if the company goes away a second after you get your unit. Clearly that has never been the case with AV123 subs.


How the sub performs, how it ranks next to other units, who makes the forum rules and all that crap have nothing to do with how SAFE it is to buy an MFW. We are talking about a company with a history of dishonesty and broken promises, a history of quality and reliability issues, and cash flow problems. These are all facts that are easily verified with public information. In light of these facts, how can anyone say it is SAFE to buy an MFW at this point in time is beyond me.
 
#112 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shisnotindahouse /forum/post/16630888


I found this rather strange and troublesome.


If MLS can't refund a measly $1100 since last September then how can av123 functions as a company?

I thought a company in av123 caliber should have a strong financial position?

This starts to bother me as a potential customer.


And he has a personal company called The Graham Company?

I don't know what to make of this.


Back to more reading then.


Very strange indeed.

Mark was selling both B-stock and some A-stock AV123 products on the AV123 forum, but using his personal Paypall account to accept payment. That account belongs to "The Graham Company" which I believe is named after one of his dogs. For a while, AV123 refused to help people who had not received their AV123 products purchased from AV123 forum sales because they claimed they were purchased from Mark and not the company.
 
#113 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by graphicguy /forum/post/16627064


and some of their dealings in China has changed.

As in Mark/AV123 are no longer owners/partners in the SAC factory, and now have to go to other factories to get their products manufactured. This is not a minor change, as IMHO I think it has a lot to do with the quality issues and some other problems.
 
#114 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by jason brent /forum/post/16629708


I know I'm not quite as prolific a poster here versus other forums, but per the OP's request, I will throw in my suggestion as well.


If it were me and I were in the sub market, I would pass on the MFW.


Will the new amps work? Probably.


But this whole experience has really disenchanted me. Throughout this trying extremely drawn out process I have had several private conversations that have given me cause to further question his business practices.


It's saying something that I'd rather spend more money for equal or less performance than buy another MFW, or any other product with an electrical cord from AV123. There are ever increasing choices where to spend $$ from id companies that don't have the black eye that av123 has.





Again, just imo, ymmv, yada yada, etc....



I thank you for your opinion, unfortunately it makes a lot of sense. I've yet to hear from Mark, and until MLS can give some personal assurance, I really can't see how I can take the risk. Too bad, really, but things are as they are, and so far nothing seems to have changed..........
 
#117 ·
Huh?


You mean MLS sold av123 products through another channel?


This is a first.


Is it proper?


This is getting stranger and stranger.


I don't think this is normal business practices at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by m-fine416 /forum/post/16631022


Mark was selling both B-stock and some A-stock AV123 products on the AV123 forum, but using his personal Paypall account to accept payment. That account belongs to "The Graham Company" which I believe is named after one of his dogs. For a while, AV123 refused to help people who had not received their AV123 products purchased from AV123 forum sales because they claimed they were purchased from Mark and not the company.
 
#118 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shisnotindahouse /forum/post/16631233


Huh?


You mean MLS sold av123 products through another channel?


This is a first.


Is it proper?


This is getting stranger and stranger.


I don't think this is normal business practices at all.

Not proper at all... Many weren't even aware that they were buying stuff from a 3rd company... If you want to read more, have fun! http://forums.audioholics.com/forums...ad.php?t=53755

Quote:
madpoet wrote:

Sad this has to be my first post here. You are (sadly) not alone. Mark owes me $4125 and has for over 6 months now. Because Mark has you buy things through the Graham Company AV123 claims they are not in any way responsible even when they are AStock items and Mark is selling them through the AV123 forum. There are quite a few of us owed many, many thousands of dollars in gear and refunds. I know I am looking at legal remedies, but it's a daunting task. The truly awful part is 6 months ago I would have bet everything that Mark/AV123 would make it all right.
 
#120 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by floridapoolboy /forum/post/16631118


I thank you for your opinion, unfortunately it makes a lot of sense. I've yet to hear from Mark, and until MLS can give some personal assurance, I really can't see how I can take the risk. Too bad, really, but things are as they are, and so far nothing seems to have changed..........

You are certainly welcome.


This whole thing makes me sad, really. Back when I was introduced to av123 it was quite the infectious place, with a great vibe. MLS is a very charismatic person imo and extremely likable. I think he is a great idea man for sure, but perhaps not the best operations guy. Unfortunately I think this type of thing happens a lot in small businesses. The guy who starts the business gets it going with his own time and money, and it is difficult to let go of the control aspect and let someone else run it. I work in a family business right now and have grown up around it and have seen my uncle make the same types of mistakes over and over.


It certainly is possible for them to turn things around, and I hope that they do. It will just take a while to regain my trust again. I need to see some positive action coming from the company consistently for a significant period of time (at least a year or more) before I will feel comfortable considering them worthy of my audio dollars....
 
#121 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by m-fine416 /forum/post/16631022


Mark was selling both B-stock and some A-stock AV123 products on the AV123 forum, but using his personal Paypall account to accept payment. That account belongs to "The Graham Company" which I believe is named after one of his dogs. For a while, AV123 refused to help people who had not received their AV123 products purchased from AV123 forum sales because they claimed they were purchased from Mark and not the company.

This comment is quite disturbing seeing as MLS apparently is AV123. It suggests that perhaps he was looking to line his pockets exclusively by paying manufacturing cost and personally pocketing the profits while bypassing the normal chain. It's like Bill Gates buying copies of Vista and then selling them privately and then having Microsoft be responible for the warranty. If true, this has interesting legal and tax implications.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m-fine416 /forum/post/16631076


As in Mark/AV123 are no longer owners/partners in the SAC factory, and now have to go to other factories to get their products manufactured. This is not a minor change, as IMHO I think it has a lot to do with the quality issues and some other problems.

Judging from what I've read over time, I'm not so sure MLS was ever a real partner in the SAC factory. He may've been only been partnered with the infamous Mr. Pu only with respect to distribution within the US or North America. Since Pu dropped him, it's really unknown where the speakers are made. Further, there doesn't really appear to be a SAC factory in the physical sense. There is a SAC outfit in Asia that carries sundry brands and also acts as a distibutorship for brands like Bohlender-Graebener (I confirmed that by contacting them). Pu may've been in effect the middle man who MLS contracted with to have speakers made.
 
#122 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandarf /forum/post/16631252


Not proper at all... Many weren't even aware that they were buying stuff from a 3rd company... If you want to read more, have fun! http://forums.audioholics.com/forums...ad.php?t=53755

In that post that you provided, don't you find it funny that Suzzane couldn't reach him at all? I mean, she's his step daughter. I'll bet she could've just called him at home, no?
 
#123 ·
floridapoolboy

You have been around and have purchased AV123 products in the past. I assuming you've also talked to MLS before.

What does your gut tell you? If your not sure or comfortable with the current situation don't buy.

My opinion is you don't need to hear the same old story over and over again.
 
#124 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by zatoichi /forum/post/16632489


floridapoolboy

You have been around and have purchased AV123 products in the past. I assuming you've also talked to MLS before.

What does your gut tell you? If your not sure or comfortable with the current situation don't buy.

My opinion is you don't need to hear the same old story over and over again.

Yes and yes. My gut tells me to take a wait and see position with regards to AV123. I was really tempted by the sub sale, and tried to coax Mark out of his seclusion to reassure the buying public (and myself) that all was well with his company. His odd behavior, coupled with the extended forum ban on posting was not confidence inspiring. Until the forum is once again up and running and the new subs have been field tested and owner recommended the prudent thing to do is, unfortunately, to do nothing. Meanwhile if the LFM-1EX goes on sale I will certainly pick one up. Since I already own one, along with an SMS-1, that seems to be the most cost effective upgrade path. Sorry Mark, you had an opportunity here to once again do what you do so well, pitch your product. If you choose to not respond to inquiries concerning your company and it's products then I'm left to wonder why. In this case silence is NOT golden, and no news is NOT good news!
 
#125 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai /forum/post/16632444


This comment is quite disturbing seeing as MLS apparently is AV123. It suggests that perhaps he was looking to line his pockets exclusively by paying manufacturing cost and personally pocketing the profits while bypassing the normal chain. It's like Bill Gates buying copies of Vista and then selling them privately and then having Microsoft be responible for the warranty. If true, this has interesting legal and tax implications.

I think you are off base here. Mark is not the only owner/investor in AV123. His move into Cali was a financial and quality disaster, and my best GUESS is Mark was taking the B-stock items and some of the LS orders personally to reduce the impact of his mistakes on the other shareholders. I have no clue if this was voluntary or forced. Heck we do not even know if Mark was alone in the B-stock items, for example what was the role of Uniaudio and Santiago?


The idea of liquidating your overstock/factory seconds or special products through a different channel is very common and not by itself shady. The issue is MLS is/was the face of AV123, and the AV123 forum, phone number and in some cases staff, were used to conduct the sale. From the customers' perspective it often looked like an AV123 transaction. When the product was not delivered the issue was not just warranty, but who is responsible for refunds, and if one entity went bankrupt, what would the obligations be of the other entities. It is not 100% clear cut, but generally having separate legal entities such as Perpetual Tech and The Graham Companies does not mean they will be treated as separate from a liability standpoint, often they are not when they are controlled by the same individuals and conducting the same business.


Quote:
Judging from what I've read over time, I'm not so sure MLS was ever a real partner in the SAC factory. He may've been only been partnered with the infamous Mr. Pu only with respect to distribution within the US or North America. Since Pu dropped him, it's really unknown where the speakers are made. Further, there doesn't really appear to be a SAC factory in the physical sense. There is a SAC outfit in Asia that carries sundry brands and also acts as a distibutorship for brands like Bohlender-Graebener (I confirmed that by contacting them). Pu may've been in effect the middle man who MLS contracted with to have speakers made.

I am pretty sure there is a rather substantial factory complex including manufacturing space and employee housing etc. it is not a figment of anyones imagination. I am not sure it is called SAC, in fact I would doubt it, but I can not speak read or write Chinese so knowing the real legal name would probably not be helpful. This factory made speakers for AV123 and Pu as well as over 30 other companies, most under NDA as is normally the case with overseas manufacturing contracts.


I am also not sure of the ownership/partnership arrangement, but there was some cross deal between Pu and Mark and or AV123/Perpetual. It was often claimed that AV123 owned half or more than half of the factory. I see no reason to believe that wasn't the case back in 2005 and earlier.


"But Schifter's group does more than just market products. In an arrangement that goes deeper than the standard relationship between an original equipment manufacturer (OEM) and a marketing firm, AV123 owns more than half of the plant in China. The factory may make products for other companies, but when it comes to the Rocket speakers, Schifter says he controls the quality and craftsmanship throughout the manufacturing process."


see: http://www.ultimateavmag.com/speakersystems/305rocket/


Mark/AV123 also had the rights to the Onix brand name in North America and sold Pu's Reference line here.


Clearly the friendship between Schifter and Pu became strained and the business partnership fell apart. When no longer an owner of the factory, I think Mark lost the control of quality and craftsmanship that was the company's competitive advantage. Many of the moves since then are almost definitely reactions to the loss of the SAC relationship. Building a new factory in Cali, talk of dropping the flagship Rocket line, introduction of the X series and the ELT525 series, trouble finding anyone to make the LS series up to spec etc. etc.


There is a HUGE difference between owning a factory and controlling your own manufacturing and subcontracting out to the lowest bidder. It looks to me like AV123 has gone from one to the other, which perfectly explains the contrast between the ghost of AV123 past and the ghost of AV123 present. They aint the same company, only the names are the same.
 
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