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San Francisco, CA - OTA

2M views 20K replies 1K participants last post by  jamesm113 
#1 ·
I'm thinking of upgrading to an HDTV and have some questions for those getting OTA HD in the Bay Area.


I live in Berkeley and it looks like while I get most of my networks from SF, I need to also point toward San Jose, 57 miles away, to get NBC. I've been looking at the Channel Master antennaes, but I can't tell if you have one station in the blue range and the rest in the green or yellow ranges, whether you can just point your directional antennae at the blue and pick everything else up off the rest of the antennae, or whether you'd need two directionals or one that can point in two directions.


Also, on antennaeweb, it has a column that's supposed to read "live now" for digital channels that are being broadcast, yet none of the bay area channels say "live now." Most are blank. I take it for granted that the digital broadcasts are available right? You can't get HDTV from an analog broadcast, can you, and I know that's available OTA. Also, I assume that all the digital channels are UHF, so I need to buy the antennae that can reach 60 miles on UHF to get NBC, don't I?


If I go the HD route, I'll be using Directv plus OTA, so I will need to get all the networks in HD to really make the investment worthwhile (as directv will give me either none, or only CBS HD). I'd appreciate if anyone in Berkeley, Oakland, Albany, etc. can sound off on their OTA experiences.


Thanks for the input.

UPDATE: I was asked to add the info below to my post. I now live in a hilly area in Oakland and can't get OTA reception any more. Too bad for me.


Viewers in the San Francisco Bay Area will find the following sites very useful for finding local digital stations:


Bay Area DTV - HDTV Channel List - http://www.choisser.com/sfonair.html


FCC DTV Reception Maps - http://www.fcc.gov/mb/engineering/maps/


Locate TV stations available at your address and compute expected signal strength and directions -
http://www.tvfool.com/
 
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#4,681 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras /forum/post/16668198


Speaking of the HDTV Primer web page, I see quite a bit of new work has been added about the Channel Master 4228HD which is supposed to be optimized for VHF. It doesn't look good at all. Has anyone tried one of the new Winegard series of Hi VHF/UHF antennas?

Prior to it's actual release he was very complimentary of the new 4228HD design. Then when he actually reviewed it (through software electrical analysis), he said it was horrible. While I can't say anything about the old design, I have the new one and it's great. I also bought a Winegard AP-8700 and use Belden low loss coax. Basically, ignore what the guy at HDTVPrimer wrote and buy the antenna, you will be happy with the results!
 
#4,683 ·
When we let our government do technology this is what we get.....(I don't care who is in office.....)


Remember back when we were all told that we needed "a new HDTV digital antenna?" as well as a tuner box?


Well, the market was flooded with UHF versions, smallish square to rectangular units.......and lots of people bought them, connected them and were happy! Except perhaps for the bunch that lived in Livermore/Pleasanton... who didn't get the message that the signals from San Francisco will not pass thru mountains....welcome to the Stockton livestock report...and stolen car journal.........!!!!


Now, after this national debacle has actually taken place....didn't we learn ANYTHING from Willmington???? the FCC sees fit to allow channels to drop from the UHF range back down into VHF after they just told people to get a new UHF antenna???? Who the hell is in charge here???????????


What a cluster flop this has turned out to be.......


Steve

....seeking a new antenna so that I can once again receive Channel 7, KGO..... Why did they move when it was working fine.....?
 
#4,684 ·
JoeBlough asked why his TiVo picked up all the changes.


Two things: 1) you had a proper antenna....see my last post....


2) TiVo downloads information from a national data feed for channel information and evidently everyone, or most everyone, got their new changes into this feed and it was automagically uploaded to their TiVo units so that this whole thing was pretty seamless it would sound!


Good job TiVo!!!!


Steve
 
#4,685 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by DEEPFRINGEGUY /forum/post/16669870


KGO is now broadcasting a banner across the top of the screen that says that they expect to switch over to their aux. antenna this Thursday or Friday and they imply that the work will be completed by July 15th.

I read it as the reception will get even WORSE because they are use aux antenna.


I can understand that they want to keep VHF 7 because a lot of viewers have been viewing analog 7. But then they have been broadcasting from UHF 24 for YEARS. I expect a lot of viewers have switched already. I wish they would just move back to UHF. Otherwise I will just have to give up recording anything from KGO.
 
#4,686 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by malmgren /forum/post/16666675


I really don't feel like putting up a VHF antenna just to get one channel. I'll wait til July, then October to see if things improve.

I feel the same way--it isn't worth my effort to buy another antenna for one station. Especially since it would almost certainly have to go outdoors (since I'm not getting even a hint of a signal on 7 indoors), and all the hassle that involves.


Luckily, I have access to KGO via Comcast, so the loss of an OTA signal is annoying to me, but not devastating. I always like to have OTA as an emergency backup*, but I can get plenty of other local stations that could provide me with information in an emergency. I sympathize with those who rely on OTA and can't get an ABC feed at present.


* In 1989, my neighborhood got power back about 8:00 p.m., but TCI's headend didn't start working again until around 11:00. So after having used my 12V TV for a few hours, I connected a settop antenna to my big TV and watched OTA on that until TCI came back. Nowadays I also have DirecTV, so if a local station can get a feed to them, they can get the feed to me. But I still like having OTA access!



Patty
 
#4,687 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelation /forum/post/16670609


I read it as the reception will get even WORSE because they are use aux antenna.


I can understand that they want to keep VHF 7 because a lot of viewers have been viewing analog 7. But then they have been broadcasting from UHF 24 for YEARS. I expect a lot of viewers have switched already. I wish they would just move back to UHF. Otherwise I will just have to give up recording anything from KGO.

KGO has an application in for 72 KW on the Aux antenna that would be close to replicating the 24 KW on the top antenna but it has not been approved by the FCC. It seems like a reasonable attempt by KGO to minimize the impact during construction time. At least it's only going to be 4 weeks.


OTOH, I find myself somewhat frustrated with the broadcasters absolute commitment to maximized analog up to the day of the transition. It's almost as though they weren't really serious about digital. Sutro (and lots of others) could have switched analog to their backup antennas last year and performed all this antenna work last summer and been maximized for digital at the transition. All the while they could have been pushing digital in their PSAs pointing out that their analog signals are reduced and viewers should be switching to digital now. Instead we have a situation where viewers are not getting maximized digital signals AND there's no analog as a backup. It'll be up to 4 months before stations are running their maximum post transition facilities. 2008 should have been the actual transition year with 2009 simply being the year that analog terminated.


Chuck
 
#4,688 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteWhiskers /forum/post/16669202


Prior to it's actual release he was very complimentary of the new 4228HD design. Then when he actually reviewed it (through software electrical analysis), he said it was horrible. While I can't say anything about the old design, I have the new one and it's great. I also bought a Winegard AP-8700 and use Belden low loss coax. Basically, ignore what the guy at HDTVPrimer wrote and buy the antenna, you will be happy with the results!

I have to disagree a little here.
If it's working for you, then that's great. But antenna modeling is the gold standard these days to predict performance. His analysis is quite useful to tell us that Channel Master hasn't done a very good job with this new version of the 4228. He's shown that it could be much better. That is certainly useful information for someone selecting antennas.


This is just my opinion here, but if you're close enough to your stations where a CM4228 will work for VHF even with its poor gain and uneven response, you should be able to use one of the new Winegard antennas that's designed properly for Hi VHF and UHF.


If you're so on the fringe that an old style CM4228 (or a 91XG) is required for UHF reception, then it'll likely not be adequate for Hi VHF and you'll need to add a separate VHF antenna.


Chuck
 
#4,689 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by fastmerc /forum/post/16669898


JoeBlough asked why his TiVo picked up all the changes.


Two things: 1) you had a proper antenna....see my last post....


2) TiVo downloads information from a national data feed for channel information and evidently everyone, or most everyone, got their new changes into this feed and it was automagically uploaded to their TiVo units so that this whole thing was pretty seamless it would sound!


Good job TiVo!!!!


Steve

well that's awesome. i would not have expected any of this to work, because 1) its a directivo, and D* is so paranoid that i figured they had disabled as much tivo goodness as possible and 2) i'm running really, really old software on the tivo. so old it has the daylight savings time bugs.
 
#4,690 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras /forum/post/16671164


If you're so on the fringe that an old style CM4228 (or a 91XG) is required for UHF reception, then it'll likely not be adequate for Hi VHF and you'll need to add a separate VHF antenna.

I'm 51 miles from Sutro and 46 from San Bruno. Oddly enough, while KGO-DT should be the most difficult for my antenna to receive, it's actually one of the best channels. Here's what TVFool says:


KGO-DT 7 (7.1)

ABC

Max ERP: 24.000 kW

Eff. pwr: 24.000 kW

Dist: 51.1 mi Path: 1Edge

Rx: -71.0 dBm NM: 20.0 dB

Az: 315.5° (true)

Az: 301.3° (compass)


I'm getting full 10 bars signal strength on the Samsung box. Even the HDHomeRun has full green bars for the three signal characteristics. The only explanation I can come up with is the CM4228HD combined with my excellent mounting skills
has made for excellent VHF reception far from the transmitter.
 
#4,691 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteWhiskers /forum/post/16671887


I'm 51 miles from Sutro and 46 from San Bruno. Oddly enough, while KGO-DT should be the most difficult for my antenna to receive, it's actually one of the best channels.

At the moment they are the only Sutro station on a tower top antenna. Let us know what happens tomorrow or Friday when they switch to the low Aux antenna.


Chuck
 
#4,693 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by JBauer2635 /forum/post/16671981


From where I also live out in Union City, KGO is the only station that I can't get over the air, the others are fine, but not KGO. Can someone please tell me what's going on with their transmitter?

KGO's existing digital signal received power is 10dB - 20dB lower than the analog signal received power and is highly dependent on location. The typical UHF antenna attenuates VHF-HI signals (negative gain) and KGO7 is at the low end of the VHF-HI band, resulting in a worst case scenario for fringe reception.


Since they are the only station broadcasting from the top of Sutro, don't expect a big improvement when they complete the installation of their new antenna. As has been noted previously, their request to temporarily increase their power from 24kW to 72kW while broadcasting from their Aux antenna is pending.
 
#4,695 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by JBauer2635 /forum/post/16671981


From where I also live out in Union City, KGO is the only station that I can't get over the air, the others are fine, but not KGO. Can someone please tell me what's going on with their transmitter?

Nothing is wrong with their transmitter. I'm 110 miles from Sutro and watched the 6 pm news tonight on KGO. If you can't receive them it has to be at your end.


Indoor antenna by any chance?



I lived in the Ardenwood district of Fremont just across the flood control channel from Union City for 18 years. I could see the Sutro tower if I stood on my 1 story roof. With an average outdoor antenna the OTA signals were perfect, not even a spec of noise on KTVU.


I'm also a ham and had a 50' tower with yagis for HF at that location. Unfortunately some of the neighbors got TV interference. The people two houses down were having problems. I went over to help them. I found a TV with rabbit ears with weak and multipath pictures. It was so bad that their pictures changed when I rotated my antenna.
I told them they needed an outside antenna or cable.


This is why I rant about indoor antennas. Yes, some people are lucky, but I've seen some truly awful pictures on indoor antennas in good signal locations.


Chuck
 
#4,696 ·
I'm still getting KGO well in the Burbank neighborhood (near the Pink Poodle) with a CM 4228HD, but I've been seeing weird red and blue vertical lines from time to time. My TV has 8 out of 10 bars, so I don't think it's interference, but I'm seeing it on my TV as well as through a ATSC capture card, so it's not my TV.


Small preview attached, I also have a png screenshot (0.5M) and an "mpg" snippet from MythTV (6M) hosted on my DSL at http://ruka.org/~toast/hdtv (can't link because I'm new)
 
#4,699 ·
I seem to recall some talk in this thread about the excessive compression KGO was doing to carry two 720p channels. My knowledge about this stuff isn't that great. But my guess is that it is related to that. (and of course if someone more knowledgeable says it is something else... take their word for it over mine
)


The following site has info on the resolutions and data rates.


San Francisco, California
http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?mktid=6

click KGO-TV


Or

Direct link


click "Technical Data and Screencaps" (as long as Javascript is enabled)

then scroll down a little.


a google search for site:avsforum.com intitle:"san francisco, ca - ota" kgo 720p compression finds some of what I'm referring to.



Anyone with a Windows computer with an ATSC card can use the free TSReader Lite to see that information in real time.


I talked about TSReader Lite some here where I was using it to see whether KPIX had started to transmit the TVGOS (TV Guide On Screen) data that the DTVPal and Artec T3APR-T converter boxes need for supporting analog based TVGOS devices. KPIX started transmitting the TVGOS data for these converter boxes on May 7th 2009.


If your TVGOS device used to be getting TV Guide listings OTA before June 13, 2009 and now isn't, you could be a candidate to get a DTVPal or Artec T3APR-T converter box. The tricky part comes from those that want to still get a resolution higher than 480i. I talked about a couple possible solutions to that here .


I don't have that need. 480i is all my TV can handle anyway. I've been getting TV Guide listings for my Panasonic DMR-EH75V (DVD/HDD/VHS) from a DTVPal Plus for 8 days in a row now.


Someone just mentioned you can get one of these DTVPal converter boxes for free if you happen to have a coupon and will be in Denver on June 27th. They won't be accepting money. So you'll need a coupon.

Here's a link to the message about the coupon DTVPal converter box swap.
 
#4,700 ·
Apparently they will be doing some work on it at noon today.

tinypic copy of 2 minute video


Not that it's needed anymore but

these are the times of their news broadcasts today:

Code:
Code:
5:30am to  6:00am "5:30am news"
 6:00am to  7:00am "6am news"
 8:00am to  9:00am repeat of "6am news" on 7.2
11:00am to 11:30am "11am news"
 9:00pm to 10:00pm "9pm news" on 20.1
(info from PSIP based guide info searched using DTVPal)



And there's the following from a few days ago:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wintertime /forum/post/16665516

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/feature?s...nfo&id=6339723

which had some text based info on it, including a link to a PDF with a schematic showing where on the tower the different stations broadcast from.
 
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