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San Francisco, CA - OTA

2M views 20K replies 1K participants last post by  jamesm113 
#1 ·
I'm thinking of upgrading to an HDTV and have some questions for those getting OTA HD in the Bay Area.


I live in Berkeley and it looks like while I get most of my networks from SF, I need to also point toward San Jose, 57 miles away, to get NBC. I've been looking at the Channel Master antennaes, but I can't tell if you have one station in the blue range and the rest in the green or yellow ranges, whether you can just point your directional antennae at the blue and pick everything else up off the rest of the antennae, or whether you'd need two directionals or one that can point in two directions.


Also, on antennaeweb, it has a column that's supposed to read "live now" for digital channels that are being broadcast, yet none of the bay area channels say "live now." Most are blank. I take it for granted that the digital broadcasts are available right? You can't get HDTV from an analog broadcast, can you, and I know that's available OTA. Also, I assume that all the digital channels are UHF, so I need to buy the antennae that can reach 60 miles on UHF to get NBC, don't I?


If I go the HD route, I'll be using Directv plus OTA, so I will need to get all the networks in HD to really make the investment worthwhile (as directv will give me either none, or only CBS HD). I'd appreciate if anyone in Berkeley, Oakland, Albany, etc. can sound off on their OTA experiences.


Thanks for the input.

UPDATE: I was asked to add the info below to my post. I now live in a hilly area in Oakland and can't get OTA reception any more. Too bad for me.


Viewers in the San Francisco Bay Area will find the following sites very useful for finding local digital stations:


Bay Area DTV - HDTV Channel List - http://www.choisser.com/sfonair.html


FCC DTV Reception Maps - http://www.fcc.gov/mb/engineering/maps/


Locate TV stations available at your address and compute expected signal strength and directions -
http://www.tvfool.com/
 
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#4,721 ·
Saronian... you're getting everything from Sutro. Mt. San Bruno and the South Bay, so you must be in a really good location. Your indoor antenna is doing super for you.


Larry

SF
 
#4,722 ·
Here's a dumb question:


I keep seeing people saying that Sutro is replacing the old "analog" antennas with new "digital" antennas.


From what I understand, there's no difference. The antennas are the same regardless. Or perhaps this is only true of receiving antennas, and perhaps transmitting antennas can be optimized for digital? Or maybe optimized for some of the new bands/freqs of some of the stations?


Or is this just improper terminology being bandied about? Perhaps just new/improved state of the art antennas to replace the older ones, period?
 
#4,723 ·
Technically, most analog transmit antennas can be reused for digital, but some of them are not level across the 6 MHz channel, (they peaked at the aural and visual carriers of the analog) and if you don't have a level curve, a station cannot be decoded as easily.


The other possibility is that the antennas at the top of the tower are tuned for certain frequencies and thus now that the channels have all moved around (for example, a KFSF-66 antenna is now up there wasting space) they're going to change antennas to optimize the use of space up there.


Or maybe they just want to replace the old antennas.



- Trip
 
#4,724 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras /forum/post/16680202


A friend located about 5 miles from here can receive KMAX fine but not KQCA. A look on the spectrum analyzer shows KQCA is simply too weak. I don't know what to make of this.


Chuck

Now that makes sense to me. Because, according to Bob, KMAX is at 825kW; and as best I can tell, KQCA is at 600kW +/-. That's the way it should be!
 
#4,725 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras /forum/post/16671962


At the moment they are the only Sutro station on a tower top antenna. Let us know what happens tomorrow or Friday when they switch to the low Aux antenna.

According to the message scrolling across the top of KGO's broadcast they did the switch. If I do see any difference it's for the better, the signal comes in real strong. KRON is still really bad.
 
#4,726 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteWhiskers /forum/post/16682422


According to the message scrolling across the top of KGO's broadcast they did the switch. If I do see any difference it's for the better, the signal comes in real strong. KRON is still really bad.

I'm surprised to be getting KGO (7) here in Santa Rosa, if they have switched to the aux., which it appears they have. It's coming in very close to the cliff for me now; about 30% lower signal; but, it's pretty steady at about 22%. It's interesting, I wouldn't normally be able to "lock" it now at this signal level, but because I already had it locked when it was at a good medium strength, my tuner lets me view the station.
 
#4,727 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras /forum/post/16670932


OTOH, I find myself somewhat frustrated with the broadcasters absolute commitment to maximized analog up to the day of the transition. It's almost as though they weren't really serious about digital. Sutro (and lots of others) could have switched analog to their backup antennas last year and performed all this antenna work last summer and been maximized for digital at the transition. All the while they could have been pushing digital in their PSAs pointing out that their analog signals are reduced and viewers should be switching to digital now. Instead we have a situation where viewers are not getting maximized digital signals AND there's no analog as a backup. It'll be up to 4 months before stations are running their maximum post transition facilities. 2008 should have been the actual transition year with 2009 simply being the year that analog terminated.Chuck

Chuck, That is exactly what they should have done and it kinda boggles the mind that they didn't look at it this way. If I had been in charge I certainly would have done it as you suggest.


I suppose on the flip side, if even one station refused to go along with this plan, then no one would be able to do so.


I just came back from Helena, MT and up there most network stations had switched earlier in the year, probably the Feb. date with only one, ABC failing to make the switch even now. It is a much smaller market so I guess that each station could operate independently of the others. My daughter was a bit POed that not all made the switch as she had to connect her antenna directly to the TV, bypassing the converter box when she wanted to watch the unswitched channel. I advised that she could have installed a simple switch in the interim but she said she was just too lazy to do it.



Duluth, MN switched a long time ago. I gave my sis a converter box so they have been watching the expanded channels for some time now.


It could have been done here!!!!!!!!!!
 
#4,733 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteWhiskers /forum/post/16685380


Just noticed that KCSM is airing 1080i on digital channel 60.4, I don't know what the physical channel and subchannel is though. Right now it's just showing a continuous loop of the digital conversion promo.

Hi,


And the SE said they never would.


I am having trouble updating my tuners so I can capture a screen shot.


My poorest tuner gets 60.4 just fine.


Is the PSID good?


SHF
 
#4,734 ·
Well it's gone now, but didn't dream it and have the picture as proof
. The last time I scanned was earlier in the week, so the channel must have been active for at least a few days. I noticed it earlier when they put up some SMPTE bars with a moving white box. I tried to tune in the channel with the HDHomeRun but it absolutely refused to see the channel even though the Samsung STB was tuning it in perfectly. I wonder if the channel was never intended to go out on the airwaves.


The KCSM website is difficult to navigate, they don't even acknowledge the Jazz TV channel exists, just the radio part (although what seems to be on the Jazz channel is just a slide with changing text and current temperature).
 
#4,735 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteWhiskers /forum/post/16685806


Well it's gone now, but didn't dream it and have the picture as proof

Hi,


Yes, it is gone now 5:13PM (KCSM 60.4)


That's why I could not add it to my main tuners.


The future looks brighter, we may soon have more than just one PBS HD channel again.


I hope that when it goes live they will id it as 60.1 and not follow KRON!



SHF
 
#4,736 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney /forum/post/16680587


Two reasons: branding... so that they can be ABC 7 on 7, and the cost of operation. It's saving them bundles of money on PG&E bills operating at 24 kW ERP than on UHF channel 24 with 561 kW.


Believe it or not, they have better coverage with their signal on channel 7 than they did on channel 24. You just have to have the equivalent VHF antenna to what you have for UHF to get the same signal or probably even better. They signal is getting out over 100 miles from Sutro. There have been lot of good reports from distant viewers.


Larry

SF

How can KGO drop the strength down to only 24 kW? What is ERP?
 
#4,737 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 /forum/post/16685859


Hi,

Yes, it is gone now 5:13PM (KCSM 60.4)

That's why I could not add it to my main tuners.

The future looks brighter, we may soon have more than just one PBS HD channel again.

I hope that when it goes live they will id it as 60.1 and not follow KRON!

SHF

Ironically, I just sent a detailed email message to KQED, because 9.1 is NOT EVEN INCLUDED in the TVGOS listings I am getting from the "legacy" stream via a DTVPal. (If you don't know what this is about, don't ask! You don't want to know...) I'm seeing this omission both on my Sony 250 and on my LG3410a, when I connect either to my DTVPal...It's ironic, because KCSM IS listed for both, as though it is the principal PBS station in the bay area...


But I am curious about whether anyone who knows what I am referring to IS successfully getting listings via the Pal for a version 7 TVGOS unit in the SF area!?


Thanks - Tony
 
#4,738 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by DEEPFRINGEGUY /forum/post/16683843


Here's a pretty nice set of coverage maps for the Sac. stations I came across in my travels:


Here's S.F:
http://www.fcc.gov/dtv/markets/maps_...an_Jose_CA.pdf

What is really strange is the last one regarding Ch2. It would appear that it would be the very hardest for me to receive up here in north Santa Rosa but it actually is the only one with a very strong, reliable signal coming from Sutro. I do get ch4 and 11 but not strong enough to count on for viewing.


I sure hope the move to the top of Sutro will result in better signals across the board. In the meantime I have Dish and Comcast basic so not lacking for 'stuff' to watch this summer.
 
#4,739 ·
Like many others in the South Bay, I lost reliable reception of KGO when the station moved from RF channel 24 to 7. I am in Cupertino, and was using a CM4228 8-bay UHF antenna and a CM7777 preamp.


Today I mounted an Antennacraft Y10-7-13 VHF high-band antenna just below the CM4228, and joined the antennas using the CM7777, as shown in the picture below. Now KGO is my strongest signal
.


-Dave




 
#4,740 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xn0r /forum/post/16681077


Here's a dumb question:


I keep seeing people saying that Sutro is replacing the old "analog" antennas with new "digital" antennas.


From what I understand, there's no difference. The antennas are the same regardless. Or perhaps this is only true of receiving antennas, and perhaps transmitting antennas can be optimized for digital? Or maybe optimized for some of the new bands/freqs of some of the stations?


Or is this just improper terminology being bandied about? Perhaps just new/improved state of the art antennas to replace the older ones, period?

Most of the "analog" antennas aren't any good because they're tuned to the wrong channels, not because they were used for analog. The antennas for 2, 4, 5, 9, 20, 32, etc. are all useless now, so they're being replaced by new antennas tuned to 7, 19, 29, 30, 33, 34, 38, 39, 43, 44 and 45, the channels the stations are now transmitting on.


Channel 7's old analog antenna worked, but it's old and while they're replacing everything else, KGO is getting a new one with the latest features. Once the project is finshed, I think everyone will see improved signals all the way around.


Larry

SF
 
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