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#1 ·
#202 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malicize /forum/post/18813594


Dougette: What brightness do you have yours on? I can barely (if at all) make out squares #1 and #2 on http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/black.php

this test with backlight at 5 and brightness at 66.


Edit: Found your brightness... Backlight at 1 and Brightness at 51?


With those settings, I can only see the last row. I presume your result is better? I have the 40".

The black squares are not meant for adjusting brightness, although brightness will affect how many squares you may see.

"Use the contrast setting, and maybe gamma to improve the display of the darker squares,

but watch out for undoing the optimizations in the earlier images."



Try tweaking your gamma more positive to see the darker squares.
 
#203 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beeper /forum/post/18819579


The black squares are not meant for adjusting brightness, although brightness will affect how many squares you may see.

"Use the contrast setting, and maybe gamma to improve the display of the darker squares, but watch out for undoing the optimizations in the earlier images.

On most LCD monitors, the brightness setting only affects the backlight, but doesn't affect the test images otherwise."



Try tweaking your gamma more positive.

Actually, brightness setting in this TV definitely has a massive impact on the black squares screen. Each step removes or adds 1 square to my screen.


I'm pretty sure this is a color space issue, since his black squares show up at 60+ brightness. I assume this means the whole screen gets brighter as a result. This means the PC is sending reference black to the TV but the TV thinks its just grey.


edit: actually, that wouldn't make any sense since the background is reference black.


@ Malicize: does the black background get brighter as you bring your brightness setting to the 60+ that gives you all the blacks? If not, then there's no problem, just leave your brightness setting up there.
 
#204 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by ex0du5 /forum/post/18819587


Actually, brightness setting in this TV definitely has a massive impact on the black squares screen. Each step removes or adds 1 square to my screen.

Originally posted by Beeper > although brightness will affect how many squares you may see.


Correct. Although the brightness should have already been set at that point, but that website doesn't have any adjustment labeled for setting the brightness. The instructions for the black level page is to adjust either gamma or contrast, both of which affect how many squares can be seen after the brightness has initially been adjusted. If the gamma and/or contrast is then changed, the brightness needs to be rechecked.


The black square setting also needs to be done in complete darkness, since the difference between the background and square #1 is very subtle.

When properly adjusted, square #2 is readily seen, and square #1 is barely distinguishable from the background.


If square #1 can't be seen, even with brightness way up, then the gamma needs to be adjusted more positive. Malicize hasn't indicated what gamma setting is being used.


I also found that the gamma setting page did not give the proper gamma.

I could adjust the gamma so that all three shades were close to 2.2 on the scales, but then watching actual content, everything was terribly washed out.
 
#205 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malicize /forum/post/18818495


9600 GT.

Make sure that your Nvidia desktop color settings are initially at default in the Nvidia control panel.

Brightness, contrast and gamma should be at the default of 50%.


You may need to adjust your graphics card settings before the display will see deep black level, because the PC is hiding it.

I was adjusting one set up, and couldn't see the second darkest black level, no matter how much I cranked the display brightness,

until I slightly increased settings at the graphics card.


I'm using driver 169.21 with a GeForce FX 5200 DVI/HDMI and I can distinguish all of the black squares.
 
#206 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beeper /forum/post/18819700


Originally posted by Beeper > although brightness will affect how many squares you may see.


Correct. Although the brightness should have already been set at that point, but that website doesn't have any adjustment labeled for setting the brightness. The instructions for the black level page is to adjust either gamma or contrast, both of which affect how many squares can be seen after the brightness has initially been adjusted. If the gamma and/or contrast is then changed, the brightness needs to be rechecked.


The black square setting also needs to be done in complete darkness, since the difference between the background and square #1 is very subtle.

When properly adjusted, square #2 is readily seen, and square #1 is barely distinguishable from the background.


If square #1 can't be seen, even with brightness way up, then the gamma needs to be adjusted more positive. Malicize hasn't indicated what gamma setting is being used.


I also found that the gamma setting page did not give the proper gamma.

I could adjust the gamma so that all three shades were close to 2.2 on the scales, but then watching actual content, everything was terribly washed out.

Yeah I'm keeping the colors at 50 and not changing the individual gamma settings. Everything is at 2.2 except for red, which is around 1.6. Looks much better to my eyes than 2.2 everything. Personal preference takes precedence over the "correct" settings.


edit: something is curious though, if you reduce the color settings down to around 40, they'll all be around 2.2. If you keep reducing it, it seems to stay at 2.2...so that chart may not work for the TV at all. I'll try using DVE to calibrate colors tonight.
 
#207 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by ex0du5 /forum/post/18820044


Yeah I'm keeping the colors at 50 and not changing the individual gamma settings. Everything is at 2.2 except for red, which is around 1.6. Looks much better to my eyes than 2.2 everything. Personal preference takes precedence over the "correct" settings.


edit: something is curious though, if you reduce the color settings down to around 40, they'll all be around 2.2. If you keep reducing it, it seems to stay at 2.2...so that chart may not work for the TV at all. I'll try using DVE to calibrate colors tonight.

Was messing with the TV last night. It stopped doing 1920x1080 and I had to set it to a slightly lower custom resolution (1900x1069) for it not to drop way down.


Increasing gamma helps, but makes greys all look the same.


Brightness USED to make the background change heavily from 50-60 but now it doesn't.. so I'm a bit confused but sticking here now. I think I see banding on the gradients for that page, though.
 
#211 ·
I don't have any scaling issues, even with strange non-standard resolutions. Things look clear as day~


I had to set the scene preset to "desktop" to get the best out of the box image. I also had to disable overscan/underscan functionality on my video card, as well as "mode" reporting. Otherwise games would look terrible and pixelated.


Besides those setup problems the screen looks great, personally think it looks more enjoyable than my 2408WFP monitor, even for normal office style work. I quite love it. Even doesn't have the same noticeable shadow detail loss that my 2408wfp has, since they are both VA panels. The semi-glossy screen with the deep blacks makes gaming very enjoyable. Probably not the best person to speak with about input lag since it doesn't effect me.


Only problem I ran into was it not wanting to detect a signal HDMI--->HDMI from my video card. I tested it by connecting 2x ouputs to the TV and it was detecting the screen, just no signal issue. I am using a combo DVI--->HDMI cable which works perfectly.


With the graphics preset and ambilight left on I actually don't need to calibrate it besides setting color to neutral from Warm. Everything looks great~ Set it and forget it I would say. Of course I am sure color accuracy is not 100% but it doesn't bother me(I spent hours of pain working on calibrating my 2408wfp without any special tools, and still couldn't make it perfect for my eyes). Ambilight doesn't seem to perform as a dynamic contrast which imo is great, it alters the backlight nicely dependent to the amount of light hitting the screen.


Nvidia driver important settings

Without the setting directly below even if you lock your TV into a specific scene preset or custom when you load a game up it will look terrible. Drove me crazy for about an hour and the nvidia forums were down. Its a setting I was not expecting since it seems to only exist when a TV is connected.


As it stands I would recommend this screen especially for the cool $499 I paid for it, don't know how it will stand to the test of time though.


HDMI1: PC

HDMI2: PS3

VGA(PC Input): Year 1 360

Component: Wii (which looks fantastic scaled to 1920x1080 pixels)


All of them are properly outputting 1080p with my wii @ 480p Wide scaled to full screen.




Uploaded with ImageShack.us



Uploaded with ImageShack.us


I haven't tried the digital audio outputs(and will never try the analog outputs) yet so I can't attest to if there are any issues with it.(connect everything digital directly to my DAC)

The speakers on the unit are fair, I use headphones always so speakers for me are to show someone a video off or youtube or play a wii game that uses the wiimote speaker to great effect. It sounds good enough for that, but not for any serious listening, or movie viewing.
 
#212 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackboot /forum/post/18468419


Some users in the EX500 thread claim that the CNET settings for last year's KDL-xxW5100 TVs are a very good starting place since the panels are apparently very similar (the same?):

http://forums.cnet.com/5208-19410_10...&tag=mncol;txt

The xxW panels are not the same. Even if they were, when you set calibration values you are not adjusting the panels, you're adjusting the image processor and decoder circuits on the motherboard. From reviews I've seen of the W and EX series for some time now, there are major differences in out-of-the-box RGB curves. The Ws have heavy Red push and Green is undersaturated. Besides making it difficult to achieve a natural color balance even with a flat RGB curve, individual color saturation levels on SONYs isn't possible, not even in the service menus. Red stands out too brightly, even in dark scenes, giving everything a Christmas-tree effect. I tried 3 different 2009 SONYs last year and returned all of them for that very reason. From what I can see of newer EX's, there's not as much color push on any one color, though Green seems a bit undernourished, but I'll be buying an EX soon and will see how they measure.


Borrowing settings for contrast, brightness, etc., often works OK but borrowed RGB settings are very iffy. Remember that SONY's "Gain" controls, which are supposed to control the bright end of each color, can't be raised -- they can only be lowered. That's a serious limitation (idiotic, IMHO), and in my case it rendered the 2009 models incapable of really natural-looking RGB adjustment. The color that was most troublesome on the 2009's was Blue; SONY designed the color processor to raise dark blues but to gradually diminish Blue at the bright end. If you could lower the dark Blue (bias) and raise the bright Blue (gain), that would give you and even response curve for Blue. But, remember, SONY won't let you raise the Gain values.


Saturation levels aside, the only way to balance things on the old or new SONYs is to gently lower Blue Bias (i.e., lower the darkest Blue). This will at least give you blacks that aren't heavily tainted with Blue, which has been a kind of trademark with SONY LCD's. Lowering Blue bias slightly tends to level-out Blue response from the darks to the brights. But Blue RGB will be slightly below Red and Green, so that overall the RGB balance will look too yellow. To correct that, Lower Red Bias, Green Bias, and then experiment with lowering Red Gain and Green Gain -- this lowers the Red and Green RGB evenly to match more closely with the Blue level. If you don't have a colorimeter and measuring software, you'll have to do it by eye -- that can be a lengthy trial-and-error process. To see what these controls actually do, try spending a half-hour at this website:
http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10457

Remember that since you're lowering all 3 colors somewhat, you'll have to adjust bright/contrast to compensate.


CNET's settings for any TV have always seemed like some sort of eerie fantasy. I've never known them to work well. Same for TweakTV. Both tend to assume that settings for one model in the same series will work for all models in that series. It ain't so.


While SONYs have always had limited capability for calibration, at least they have more than others offer beyond the fairly useless Color and Hue controls.
 
#213 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by ninjikiran /forum/post/18837399


I don't have any scaling issues, even with strange non-standard resolutions. Things look clear as day~


I had to set the scene preset to "desktop" to get the best out of the box image. I also had to disable overscan/underscan functionality on my video card, as well as "mode" reporting. Otherwise games would look terrible and pixelated.

How do you disable this on the GPU? I'm pretty sure I had this issue with the newest NVidia drivers (had to revert back to 197).


edit: oh I think you said how in the bottom of your post...can't view them at work. I'll check it out when I get home.


As for the calibration settings: it will be roughly this:


Backlight - as low as you can in your room (better blacks)

Picture - 95 (default)

Brightness - 50 (mine is 51...will vary a bit)

Color - 50

Color Tone - Warm 1 (Neutral is too blue, Warm 2 is too red)


You really barely need to set anything...the graphics preset was just slightly off for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn /forum/post/18839825


The xxW panels are not the same. Even if they were, when you set calibration values you are not adjusting the panels, you're adjusting the image processor and decoder circuits on the motherboard. From reviews I've seen of the W and EX series for some time now, there are major differences in out-of-the-box RGB curves. The Ws have heavy Red push and Green is undersaturated. Besides making it difficult to achieve a natural color balance even with a flat RGB curve, individual color saturation levels on SONYs isn't possible, not even in the service menus. Red stands out too brightly, even in dark scenes, giving everything a Christmas-tree effect. I tried 3 different 2009 SONYs last year and returned all of them for that very reason. From what I can see of newer EX's, there's not as much color push on any one color, though Green seems a bit undernourished, but I'll be buying an EX soon and will see how they measure.


Borrowing settings for contrast, brightness, etc., often works OK but borrowed RGB settings are very iffy. Remember that SONY's "Gain" controls, which are supposed to control the bright end of each color, can't be raised -- they can only be lowered. That's a serious limitation (idiotic, IMHO), and in my case it rendered the 2009 models incapable of really natural-looking RGB adjustment. The color that was most troublesome on the 2009's was Blue; SONY designed the color processor to raise dark blues but to gradually diminish Blue at the bright end. If you could lower the dark Blue (bias) and raise the bright Blue (gain), that would give you and even response curve for Blue. But, remember, SONY won't let you raise the Gain values.


Saturation levels aside, the only way to balance things on the old or new SONYs is to gently lower Blue Bias (i.e., lower the darkest Blue). This will at least give you blacks that aren't heavily tainted with Blue, which has been a kind of trademark with SONY LCD's. Lowering Blue bias slightly tends to level-out Blue response from the darks to the brights. But Blue RGB will be slightly below Red and Green, so that overall the RGB balance will look too yellow. To correct that, Lower Red Bias, Green Bias, and then experiment with lowering Red Gain and Green Gain -- this lowers the Red and Green RGB evenly to match more closely with the Blue level. If you don't have a colorimeter and measuring software, you'll have to do it by eye -- that can be a lengthy trial-and-error process. To see what these controls actually do, try spending a half-hour at this website:
http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10457

Remember that since you're lowering all 3 colors somewhat, you'll have to adjust bright/contrast to compensate.


CNET's settings for any TV have always seemed like some sort of eerie fantasy. I've never known them to work well. Same for TweakTV. Both tend to assume that settings for one model in the same series will work for all models in that series. It ain't so.


While SONYs have always had limited capability for calibration, at least they have more than others offer beyond the fairly useless Color and Hue controls.

Blue and Green are actually pretty perfect for me on my EX400. The only color that's oversaturated is red...but I've kept it that way since it's pleasing to my eyes (as I'm slightly red colorblind).
 
#214 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn /forum/post/18839825


The xxW panels are not the same. Even if they were, when you set calibration values you are not adjusting the panels, you're adjusting the image processor and decoder circuits on the motherboard. From reviews I've seen of the W and EX series for some time now, there are major differences in out-of-the-box RGB curves. The Ws have heavy Red push and Green is undersaturated. Besides making it difficult to achieve a natural color balance even with a flat RGB curve, individual color saturation levels on SONYs isn't possible, not even in the service menus. Red stands out too brightly, even in dark scenes, giving everything a Christmas-tree effect. I tried 3 different 2009 SONYs last year and returned all of them for that very reason. From what I can see of newer EX's, there's not as much color push on any one color, though Green seems a bit undernourished, but I'll be buying an EX soon and will see how they measure.


Borrowing settings for contrast, brightness, etc., often works OK but borrowed RGB settings are very iffy. Remember that SONY's "Gain" controls, which are supposed to control the bright end of each color, can't be raised -- they can only be lowered. That's a serious limitation (idiotic, IMHO), and in my case it rendered the 2009 models incapable of really natural-looking RGB adjustment. The color that was most troublesome on the 2009's was Blue; SONY designed the color processor to raise dark blues but to gradually diminish Blue at the bright end. If you could lower the dark Blue (bias) and raise the bright Blue (gain), that would give you and even response curve for Blue. But, remember, SONY won't let you raise the Gain values.


Saturation levels aside, the only way to balance things on the old or new SONYs is to gently lower Blue Bias (i.e., lower the darkest Blue). This will at least give you blacks that aren't heavily tainted with Blue, which has been a kind of trademark with SONY LCD's. Lowering Blue bias slightly tends to level-out Blue response from the darks to the brights. But Blue RGB will be slightly below Red and Green, so that overall the RGB balance will look too yellow. To correct that, Lower Red Bias, Green Bias, and then experiment with lowering Red Gain and Green Gain -- this lowers the Red and Green RGB evenly to match more closely with the Blue level. If you don't have a colorimeter and measuring software, you'll have to do it by eye -- that can be a lengthy trial-and-error process. To see what these controls actually do, try spending a half-hour at this website:
http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10457

Remember that since you're lowering all 3 colors somewhat, you'll have to adjust bright/contrast to compensate.


CNET's settings for any TV have always seemed like some sort of eerie fantasy. I've never known them to work well. Same for TweakTV. Both tend to assume that settings for one model in the same series will work for all models in that series. It ain't so.


While SONYs have always had limited capability for calibration, at least they have more than others offer beyond the fairly useless Color and Hue controls.

The only thing you can adjust on the sony is the white balance of the set. This is the balance of rgb in black thru white and shades of gray in between.


Adjusting this in no way whatsoever adjusts the saturation of R G or B. To adjust white balance to try to trick they eye into thinking that red is less saturated is only throwing more things out of balance and doing more harm than good.


I cannot speak for the smaller sizes in the line of ex500 but the 60 has very little push of any one color. And the white balance can be made near perfect from 20 ire thru 100ire (within delta e3 and for most of it less than delta e2)

That is Excellent white balance.
 
#215 ·
Yea when its pitch black night time I can push as low as 0-1 backlight if I want to. I like the graphic setting because it seems to disable most of the rubbish that detracts from the overall image, from there its just minimal tweaking worry.


It wasn't shutting off mode reporting completely but just making it default to desktop. Even if you have it locked in graphics or any other custom mode I don't know what other settings would ask the TV to do.
 
#221 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spartan_0003 /forum/post/18862052


I found this review on the UK version of this TV, seems very in depth and measures the input lag at approximately 40ms for all inputs. Figured you guys might get very useful information out of reading this, just translate UK lingo appropiately
:

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/sony-...0100418346.htm

The reason for the higher nputlag is i think because the UK version has Bravia engine 3 and the us and my version (holland) has Bravia engine 2. BE3 turns the inputlag slughtly more i think, beacuase it does more work.
 
#222 ·
Hello all. I bought the Sony Bravia 32EX400 a few weeks ago at Best Buy. So far it performs excellently. I used an SVGA cable for PC output and it looked great with blu-ray movies. Unfortunately I need about a 15-foot cable, and the first one I tried ghosts badly, so I have to keep looking. I need one that has the 3.5mm audio jack attached to it, if anyone has any recommendation.


But my only problem so far is with an original XBOX going through Component wires. I have the official MS HD connector with component, and some games and all DVD's I try to play on it have these vertical purple bars on the screen like below. It's not the XBOX, because it worked fine on a Panasonic plasma at my parents' house. This stinks because I use the old XBOX for DVD's. Most of my DVD's are that, I have only a small amount of BD's and I hate using the computer anyway (no remote). I can't believe an old XBOX is incompatible with this TV. I'm due to get some component cables for my old PS2 also, I'll see if that works.

 
#223 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by ex0du5 /forum/post/18805934


Anyone have experience with this? I'm looking for a small TV to use as a monitor (because lets face it...TN monitors are awful).


This Sony TV is on sale at Futureshop for $600 so it's a good candidate:


The other TV I'm looking at is the 32" Samsung in the same price range:


Samsung LN32C550
http://www.futureshop.ca/en-CA/produ...5564f3bc20en02

Whenever I am looking for prices of electronics in Canada, I always check www.thepricenation.com first. It has a price database of the televisions sold by both Futureshop and Bestbuy. It has been a very useful website for me. Here is the link to this 32EX400 http://thepricenation.com/forum/topic974.html
 
#224 ·
Hi guys. I as looking for advice on TV's an was directed here. I currently have my eyes on a certain TV, but I'm unsure whether to go for it, or a different one.


Pricewise, I'd pay no more than about €600, at least 32 inch. Anyway, I found that the TV below "seems" good and I want to ask your opinions on it. Maybe give some suggestions for better alternatives (that are still below or around €600). I tried looking for info about this TV in particular, and I couldn't find much. General consensus seems that Sony HDTV's are good, but it seems they can have some problems according to people who "seemingly know their stuff".


Any help and/or advice would be appreciated.


TV I have my eyes on:

Sony KDL-40EX402

Price: About € 576,- (includes shipping and whatnot. TV itself is 568)


Others:


Sony Bravia KDL-37EX402

Price: About € 542,-


Samsung LE40C550

Price: About € 560,-


Samsung LE37C550

Price: About € 555,-



Which TV would you say is the best out of them? Should I just go for the Bravia I mentioned first? I also tried looking for a plasma, but they seem more expensive. I'd rather not go for a TV without 1080p support these days though, since I won't be buying a new one for quite a while.


Lastly, gaming is also pretty important. I have a Wii, PS3 and Xbox 360. I had some real problems playing fighting games, or Guitar Hero on the TV's of some people I know, because the delay was too high.


EDIT: After reading through this thread a bit, it seems there's also a bit about the viewing angle. While it doesn't need to be overly wide, it shouldn't be too small either.
 
#225 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nonexistinghero /forum/post/18872175


Hi guys. I as looking for advice on TV's an was directed here. I currently have my eyes on a certain TV, but I'm unsure whether to go for it, or a different one.


Pricewise, I'd pay no more than about 600, at least 32 inch. Anyway, I found that the TV below "seems" good and I want to ask your opinions on it. Maybe give some suggestions for better alternatives (that are still below or around 600). I tried looking for info about this TV in particular, and I couldn't find much. General consensus seems that Sony HDTV's are good, but it seems they can have some problems according to people who "seemingly know their stuff".


Any help and/or advice would be appreciated.


TV I have my eyes on:

Sony KDL-40EX402

Price: About 576,- (includes shipping and whatnot. TV itself is 568)


Others:


Sony Bravia KDL-37EX402

Price: About 542,-


Samsung LE40C550

Price: About 560,-


Samsung LE37C550

Price: About 555,-



Which TV would you say is the best out of them? Should I just go for the Bravia I mentioned first? I also tried looking for a plasma, but they seem more expensive. I'd rather not go for a TV without 1080p support these days though, since I won't be buying a new one for quite a while.


Lastly, gaming is also pretty important. I have a Wii, PS3 and Xbox 360. I had some real problems playing fighting games, or Guitar Hero on the TV's of some people I know, because the delay was too high.


EDIT: After reading through this thread a bit, it seems there's also a bit about the viewing angle. While it doesn't need to be overly wide, it shouldn't be too small either.

My EX400 has minimal input lag (~30 at most) but many Samsungs are known to be much higher. The 402 may have worse input lag (I remember reading that one EX version was much worse - check on this.)
 
#226 ·
Sitting maybe a little over 3 feet away I don't have any problems. Though the viewing angles on this screen sharply declines so in terms of viewing angle it is on the worst end of the spectrum. In my opinion its not in any middle ground.


I would consider my old S-PVA monitor to be that perfect middle ground but this one reminded me of the TN Panel based screens, just rather than negative coloration there is just color shifting as per VA standards.


As far as input lag goes I honestly don't feel it at all, only time I did feel it was enabling V-sync in crysis where I had never felt it before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nonexistinghero /forum/post/18872175


Hi guys. I as looking for advice on TV's an was directed here. I currently have my eyes on a certain TV, but I'm unsure whether to go for it, or a different one.


Pricewise, I'd pay no more than about €600, at least 32 inch. Anyway, I found that the TV below "seems" good and I want to ask your opinions on it. Maybe give some suggestions for better alternatives (that are still below or around €600). I tried looking for info about this TV in particular, and I couldn't find much. General consensus seems that Sony HDTV's are good, but it seems they can have some problems according to people who "seemingly know their stuff".


Any help and/or advice would be appreciated.


TV I have my eyes on:

Sony KDL-40EX402

Price: About € 576,- (includes shipping and whatnot. TV itself is 568)


Others:


Sony Bravia KDL-37EX402

Price: About € 542,-


Samsung LE40C550

Price: About € 560,-


Samsung LE37C550

Price: About € 555,-



Which TV would you say is the best out of them? Should I just go for the Bravia I mentioned first? I also tried looking for a plasma, but they seem more expensive. I'd rather not go for a TV without 1080p support these days though, since I won't be buying a new one for quite a while.


Lastly, gaming is also pretty important. I have a Wii, PS3 and Xbox 360. I had some real problems playing fighting games, or Guitar Hero on the TV's of some people I know, because the delay was too high.


EDIT: After reading through this thread a bit, it seems there's also a bit about the viewing angle. While it doesn't need to be overly wide, it shouldn't be too small either.
 
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