AVS Forum banner
2M views 25K replies 1K participants last post by  TheVolumnus1 
#1 ·

Hard to believe with all the buzz going on that no-one has bothered to open a thread on what looks to be a killer-receiver (to me at least)...

So here goes!




My first question would be the following:


We already know that this receiver will be 11.2 capable with external amplification, but will the internal amps be assignable?


If not, you'll probably be stuck using the internal amps for your 9.2 setup (including your mains) and adding the external amp for a wide/height/SB channel (whatever Denon decides).


If yes, which I much prefer, the 2 added channels of external amplification could be assignable to the front speakers for instance.

This way you could set-up your system with a quality external amp for your mains and keep the internal amps for the remaining speakers...


I admit, I've been out of the game for quite some time (still the owner of an AVR-3801 currently! Hence the interest in the 4311 ) so apologies in advance if I'm missing the obvious here, but at this point it's the only thing unclear to me.



********************************************************

EDIT:

Batpig suggested it would be a good idea to make a FAQ section in the first post of this thread and who am I to refuse.

So here goes, the first little FAQ trivia, courtesy of batpig.

Special thx goes out to jdsmoothie for keeping me informed on the FW updates!!!

********************************************************
FAQ

Where can I find more info on this behemoth?
http://usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/5414.asp


What is the difference between the 4311ci and the A100?

A100 gets the following over 4311:


- Gloss Finish

- 100th Anniversary badge

- 100th anniversary block condensers

- Gold plated terminals

- Premium upgraded speaker binding posts

- Cast iron feet

- 5 year warranty

- Brand history book

- Inspection sheet

- fancy box

In terms of processing / amps / internals they are otherwise identical.

Which possible combinations of internal and external amps are there?

- You can have ANY combination of internal and external amps. You can power 5 speakers with external amps and 4 with internal... you can power 3 with external and 8 with internal.... you can power 2 with external and 9 with internal.... 9 with external and 2 with internal.... IT'S ALL GOOD. The ONLY thing you can't do is power 11 speakers internally...... because there are only 9 amps built in!


- The ONLY exception is that, because the receiver only has 9 amps built in, when you activate 11 channel mode, the receiver forces you to choose whether the FIRST TWO extra channels will be the heights or the front L/R mains.

How do I activate the preouts?

- You do not need to activate anything. When you are in 11ch mode, ALL THE PREOUTS ARE HOT at all times. You don't have to assign anything or set anything beyond the selection for the first two externally amped channels, the preouts are ALL HOT.

Then what is preamp mode for?

- PREAMP MODE however disconnects the signal from ALL the amps, so you should ONLY use this mode if you are using ONLY external amps for all channels. You cannot "shut off" specific amps internally, so if you will be using any of the internal amps for the main zone, you cannot use PREAMP mode.


A100 Firmware Updates
1. GUI issue fixes and using Party Mode Plus when networking
2. Audio drop out issues (12/22/10)
3. "Blue rain" video issue resolved (1/24/2011)
4. See items added below (7/1/11)
- Last.fm for German. (E2 only)
- It fails in the DPMS update of the firmware when the product is connected with "Control4".
- When Page Up/Down is done in the music list of iRadio, the product is frozen.
- When network connection speed is slow, the error occurs in the display of the FL tube.
- There is a case that the backup data of the parameter etc. initializes.
- There is a case where the network doesn't start.
- When the NSE command of AMX is sent, the data of the answer is wrong.
5. See items below (7/30/11)
- Allow connectivity to new Rhapsody servers
- Improve network connectivity
6. Allow connectivity to Pandora servers (12/19/12)

Note: If you have installed the Airplay firmware upgrade, the firmware version number on your unit will be incremented by 0001.



4311CI Firmware Updates
1. Fixes Party Mode feature, Pop Up menu function, USB functionality and also to the IP/232 controllability.
2. Audio drop out issues (12/22/10)
3. "Blue rain" video issue resolved (1/24/2011)
4. See A100 updates (7/1/11)
5. See A100 updates (7/30/11)
6. See A100 update (12/19/12)

Note: If you have installed the Airplay firmware upgrade, the firmware version number on your unit will be incremented by 0001.
 
See less See more
2
#81 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig /forum/post/19157840


how does that work exactly??? isn't that kind of redundant with just using PLIIx to process two surrounds channels into 4?

I don't think I'm the ONLY one doing something like this, but I concede that it's rare. In my case, I'm compensating for a small room with a poor layout. I don't have the luxury of having my seating in the middle of a room, so it helps to spread the sound out a bit in a scenario where I can't really get speakers behind the listener. It actually works suprisingly well... there is a "difference" in the rear L & R channels, enough for the PLII circuitry in the 2nd amp to pick up on and spread around a little more.


It's not the end of the world - my understanding is the height speakers don't need much power, so I shouldn't need a big amp for them. It's just one more thing to try and cram in there.
 
#82 ·

Quote:
there is a "difference" in the rear L & R channels, enough for the PLII circuitry in the 2nd amp to pick up on and spread around a little more.

FYI - this is basically exactly how PLIIx derives 4 surrounds from two, by seeing "differences" in the stereo imaging of the standard 2 surrounds (in 5.1) and distributing that to 4 surrounds (for 7.1). I think it's time to modernize that arrangement and just trust PLIIx
 
#83 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig /forum/post/19156659


ahhh, the old butt-shakers
I'm with you now!


Audyssey will not apply any EQ filters below the measured roll-off of the subwoofer, so it probably will not be doing any EQ'ing in the "butt shaker region". For example, if your regular sub's -3dB point is measured to be 27Hz, Audyssey will taper off the correction below that point (assuming the transducers are not connected during the Audyssey measurements), so if the butt-shakers are only playing sub-20Hz, no correction will be applied.


You do not get the benefit of a separate LPF for the transducers, but don't they kind of roll off naturally above a certain point?

Hmmm...I figured Audyssey worked by listening to the sound of the subwoofers via the mic....How would it know the butt kickers even exist?
 
#85 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrjktcvs /forum/post/19157909


Hmmm...I figured Audyssey worked by listening to the sound of the subwoofers via the mic....How would it know the butt kickers even exist?

I think, with Audyssey, you don't WANT it to "know" that they exist! The subsonic stuff produced by the buttkickers is mostly nearfield tactile, and isn't going to be influenced by room acoustic issues. I honestly doubt the mic could even pick up on what they are producing....


From my understanding of what I've seen on the Audyssey thread, most people just EQ the rig without the buttkickers attached, then hook them up at the end and adjust to their preferred level of "butt kicking".
 
#86 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig /forum/post/19157906


FYI - this is basically exactly how PLIIx derives 4 surrounds from two, by seeing "differences" in the stereo imaging of the standard 2 surrounds

That was exactly my point.
There are differences (and commonalities) in the rears that the (secondary) PLIIx processor is able to further extrapolate into more channels.
Quote:
I think it's time to modernize that arrangement and just trust PLIIx

If stock PLIIx gave me enough channels in the rear to make up for my layout, I would. My system operates like any other PLIIx system except that some sounds from the two rear speakers are re-assigned to additional speakers. Height channels and wide front channels operate on the same principles. Many people in this thread are looking to the 4311 to "modernize" up to those configurations. I don't understand why you'd suggest that an (admittedly hacked) application of the same principles to the rear channels is antiquated.
 
#87 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig /forum/post/19158031


I think, with Audyssey, you don't WANT it to "know" that they exist! ... From my understanding of what I've seen on the Audyssey thread, most people just EQ the rig without the buttkickers attached

Absolutely. You don't want them affecting the readings of the speakers. I attach my mic to a tripod and move it to different seats when measuring. Having that seat vibrate during measurement would most certainly color the results! I just turn off those amps when I test.
 
#88 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darin /forum/post/19158468


don't understand why you'd suggest that an (admittedly hacked) application of the same principles to the rear channels is antiquated.

well, it's not "antiquated" in the sense that what you are doing (in principle) is perfectly valid. But (1) you have to resort to an admitted hack to achieve this setup (as opposed to the elegance of just using one box to process all channels) and, more importantly IMO, (2) how can you EQ each speaker independently using Audyssey with this arrangement?


As far as the "core" processor is concerned, it is just outputting TWO surround channels, which, if I understand correctly, you are then converting into 5 channels "upstream" using an external processor to apply PLII to the two surrounds. So you get one extra speaker (versus using PLIIx to turn 2 surround channels into 4) but you have to use an extra piece of equipment, and you can't EQ the channels independently.


To me, the benefits of using 4 surrounds, properly generated with PLIIx and EQ'd individually, have to outweigh the benefit of the one extra surround speaker you have in your setup. But whatever works for you!



Quote:
Height channels and wide front channels operate on the same principles.

FYI - this is not actually accurate. They are not derived via the same sort of "matrix" processing that (for example) you can use to generate a center channel from stereo content (by steering "in phase" content from both channels to the center). Audyssey is adamant that their DSX processing is NOT the same as the standard matrix steering for, say, PLII. The "wide" channels are not just a simple "mixture" of the surrounds and fronts to create "in between" sounds.
 
#89 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig /forum/post/19158543


how can you EQ each speaker independently using Audyssey with this arrangement?

The additional channels don't benefit from Audyssey. I am, however, using matching speakers (with the exception of a dipole pair), so the only inaccuracies would be due to their different placements in the room. The 5 rear channels are calibrated first (for distance and levels), then the the main receiver does everything else (that way, any coloration or processing delays from the secondary receiver should be accounted for).

Quote:
if I understand correctly, you are then converting into 5 channels "upstream" using an external processor to apply PLII to the two surrounds. So you get one extra speaker (versus using PLIIx to turn 2 surround channels into 4) but you have to use an extra piece of equipment, and you can't EQ the channels independently.

Not quite... I have the standard 7.1 setup. BUT, the two rear channels are fed through a 5.1 PLII receiver (but no sub attached to it). So everything that my 7.1 receiver outputs goes to the same place that it would with a standard 7.1 setup, EXCEPT that some sounds directed to the two rear channels get re-directed to some additional rear speakers (3 extras). So effectively, it's 10.1.
Quote:
But whatever works for you!

Exactly.
I can easily revert to "stock" 7.1 by just putting the "rear" receiver into stereo mode, but the extra DPL processing really does help in my "bad" room.

Quote:
FYI - this is not actually accurate. They are not derived via the same sort of "matrix" processing that (for example) you can use to generate a center channel from stereo content (by steering "in phase" content from both channels to the center). Audyssey is adamant that their DSX processing is NOT the same as the standard matrix steering for, say, PLII. The "wide" channels are not just a simple "mixture" of the surrounds and fronts to create "in between" sounds.

Well, for that matter, PLII also isn't "simple" matrixing. But it is steering that is based on the phase differences and commonalities of various discreet channels. Audyssey can apply their own logic to it, but they still have to produce an end result that is similar. Because it's phase differences and commonalities that makes us perceive sounds coming from between speakers, or outside them. That's why movies (and even music) that was recorded before Dolby sound still worked relatively well once Dolby surround was invented. In a standard 5.1 recording, the sounds intended to be perceived as between the right surround and right front need to be in phase, because that is what makes our senses believe that's where they are. They can apply their own enhancements to it, but if they vere TOO far from that simple logic, they risk placing sounds in spots that perhaps weren't intended to be perceived from that spot. That's my take, anyway.
 
#90 ·
I have two questions about the 4311.


1. If I have a 5 channel external amp, will I be able to run my LF, C, RF, RL, RR off of the external amp, then with preamp mode shut off the receiver's 5 channels and then run my height and/or side backs off of the receivers internal amps?


2. I noticed the power consumption of the 4311 is 780W. I also have been looking at the Onkyo 3008/5008 and their power consumption is 1060W. Is this big of power discrepancy something I should be concerned about? As in does this mean the Onkyo has beefier amps?
 
#91 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darin /forum/post/19156803


Well, this is probably more detail than necessary for this thread, but just to justify my desires:
they don't roll off enough for my taste. I prefer to limit them to the infrasonics, as that just seems more natural to me. Having the room vibrate just because the guy on the news has a deep voice just doesn't seem right.
I have buttkickers in the floor, and bass shakers in the furniture. The buttkickers aren't too bad, but the bass shakers have a natural resonance around 40hz, which is WAY too high for me. I use both channels of a BFD to EQ them separately, and I also have an inline low pass filter upstream of the BFD to help roll things off (in addition to some significant cuts with the BFD). I was hoping with the 4311 maybe I could simplify things a tad. If nothing else, I'll be able to get rid of the Y cable. FWIW, my sub has a -3d point around 11.5hz, so it could dip into the shaker region a bit. Fortunately though, most of my EQ needs are in the higher ranges, so Audyssey doesn't do much down there.

DARIN & BATPIG -- i am replacing an old Yamaha RXV-2095 with a new AVR soon (probably the Denon 4311). My current system includes:


1. Front Speakers = MK S100B -- 4 ohms

2. Center Speaker = MK S125C -- 4 ohms

3. Back Speaker = MK-95 -- 4 ohms

4. Subwoofer = MK MX125 II

5. Buttkicker BKA-1000 system powering 2 units screwed to the bottom of my sofa)


The challenge that i have is the one that Darin mention above -- I don't want the buttkickers to shake things up just cause the movie sountrack has some bass or an actor has a low voice. I prefer that it activate only when things BLOW UP!! I have the unit set so that only signals below 40Hz get through but this is still too high. I have to admit that i havent understood much of your back and forth with Batpig but is there something SIMPLE that i can do to filter the Buttkicker signal so only the EXPLOSIONS and the like get through?


Thanks
 
#93 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldiablos /forum/post/19159169


1. If I have a 5 channel external amp, will I be able to run my LF, C, RF, RL, RR off of the external amp, then with preamp mode shut off the receiver's 5 channels and then run my height and/or side backs off of the receivers internal amps?

No AFAIK -- from my reading of the manual, if the receiver is in "pre amp" mode then the amps are off. The only exception would be if you are using them to power Zones 2 / 3. It's not something that is selective per channel.


Of course, you could just do what you intend (use external amp for 5 channels and internal amps for other channels), just like any other receiver with pre-amp outputs.... you just wouldn't be using the "official" pre-amp mode
 
#94 ·
batpig,


Are you still using your 3808? I am thinking of moving mine to the living room (right now I am using a cheap Sony STR-DG920) and getting a 4311. Are you thinking about upgrading to a 4311 too? Or are you just keeping up with latest Denons like usual?
 
#96 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig /forum/post/19159458


No AFAIK -- from my reading of the manual, if the receiver is in "pre amp" mode then the amps are off. The only exception would be if you are using them to power Zones 2 / 3. It's not something that is selective per channel.


Of course, you could just do what you intend (use external amp for 5 channels and internal amps for other channels), just like any other receiver with pre-amp outputs.... you just wouldn't be using the "official" pre-amp mode

Yes that is very true. Just trying to match the 4311 vs the Onkyo 3008/5008 to see which will be the best receiver for my needs.


Any thoughts on the difference in the wattage output between the 4311 and the 3008/5008?
 
#97 ·
Slightly OT, but how long does it usually take Harmony to add new Denon receivers to their database?
 
#98 ·
Hi Doug,

Quote:
Originally Posted by counsil /forum/post/19159498


Slightly OT, but how long does it usually take Harmony to add new Denon receivers to their database?

I have an H1100 and in my experience Logitech has always been quite quick to react. Anyway, in this case, I would bet that there shouldn't be any major differences between the 4310 (even 4810) and 4311 remote codes, so... nothing to worry about.



Have a nice day.


Hugo
 
#100 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by kee68 /forum/post/19159795


JWB when you go to the Denon web page it shows a completly different picture and it says made in Japan. It would not be the first time they made a mistake on it. Where did you get your link? http://usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/5414.asp shows something totaly different.

Yeh, I noticed quite a few of silkscreen differences. I got the links at the bottom of this Ecoustics page: http://news.ecoustics.com/bbs/messag...81/647810.html

Since the Denon's is newer, I would think it is more accurate. Maybe Denon has two manufacturing sites.
 
Top