Hey guys, I searched and found that this thread was the most recent tivo HD vs HTPC. Of course, that doesn't even include the "new" premiere. It's just given me so much to think about now. /sarcasm
yeah, anyway, this isn't a thread about how good or bad the premiere is.
Personally, I'd just like to be finished w/ the monthly fees. And that brings me to the HTPC forum.
With the coming release of the Ceton Quad Tuner CableCARD PCIe adapter and the release of Windows 7 and it's integrated media center it seems as if the stars have aligned and I should be free from the monthly Tivo fees. However, before I completely jump ship, I like to have some idea of where I'm swimming. As of now, just reading the few reviews out there, znf, cnet, engadget, gizmodo, etc. It seems that the Ceton works flawlessly.
I'm hoping to implement a Windows 7 box using the HTPC build guide and sticking a Ceton in it. I'd like the Ceton to tune 3 channels via cableCARD & do one OTA for the major networks which all come in fine here in the Louisville Metro. Then I'd like to use the XBox360's Media Center Extender feature to fiddle w/ all this jazz from all the remote locations in the house.
So, since no one knows how this is all going to go down yet w/ this "network availability" feature of the Ceton cards. I guess I'm just looking for some input / speculation.
Will the 360's or other Media Center be able to channel live TV from the Ceton Windows 7 box through my personal interwebs to my TVs?
Anyone else out there dumping the old TiVo HD boxes for the new Windows 7 + Ceton setups with Media Center Extenders?
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Originally Posted by rantanamo /forum/post/19080490
The Cetons are out and working very well.
Also to update, there is a 3rd party app that removes the tuner limit. There are many over at thegreenbutton that are running 2 of the 4 tuner Ceton tuners with no problem.
Seriously, I have difficulty finding more than two programs on at the same time I'd like to watch. Why would you ever need to record more than four shows at once? Am I missing something?
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Originally Posted by redondoman /forum/post/19087787
Seriously, I have difficulty finding more than two programs on at the same time I'd like to watch. Why would you ever need to record more than four shows at once? Am I missing something?
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Originally Posted by Defcon /forum/post/19086470
Don't forget that you lose on-demand with both Tivo and HTPC. I have Comcast and there is a lot of content which I find there. I was seriously considering the HTPC route since I hate everything else about cable stb's but i realized I can just pay the monthly fee and not bother with any of this since its 'good enough' for me.
If the HD Homerum comes out for $200 I am definitely going to reconsider.
On-Demand is fine if you happen to miss a lot of shows. Torrent sites and DVRs fill the gap for me. I have found a few shows that I discovered after they've been on the air for a while so I like to go back and retrieve the earlier shows to get caught up. I've rarely used On-Demand and don't consider it a dealbreaker.
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Originally Posted by redondoman /forum/post/19087787
Seriously, I have difficulty finding more than two programs on at the same time I'd like to watch. Why would you ever need to record more than four shows at once? Am I missing something?
Yes. I record a lot of shows that air back-to-back on different channels. Program guides don't always reflect the exact start and stop times so I like to pad the beginning and end of each recording to ensure I don't miss any of the show. There are several nights where I have two shows in one time slot followed by two shows in the next time slot on different channels. There is an overlap that occurs several minutes before and after the transition between time slots where all four tuners would be in use. Before and after the overlap, only two tuners are actually in use for the majority of the programs.
Besides having the ability to pad my shows, the extra tuners help resolve any recording conflicts that might occur. I have two dual tuner S3 Tivos and there were times I wish I had a third. Fortunately, most cable channels tend to air any series programs multiple times during the week so there's usually an opportunity to schedule a recording at a later time to eliminate any conflicts. This is not true of standard network programming. Then again, I also have four ATSC tuners to handle my OTA recording chores.
If you have a DVR, you rarely need cable VOD. The whole point of a DVR is to record what you want to watch, not what the cableCo thinks you might like.
And I would hardly consider a cable DVR 'good enough' for AVS users. Mine was a slow, buggy piece of crap and I couldn't wait to upgrade to a Tivo HD a couple of years ago. Right now you can build a Ceton-based HTPC and it will pay for itself in a couple of years vs. renting 2 DVRs.
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Originally Posted by slowbiscuit /forum/post/19087879
If you have a DVR, you rarely need cable VOD. The whole point of a DVR is to record what you want to watch, not what the cableCo thinks you might like.
And I would hardly consider a cable DVR 'good enough' for AVS users. Mine was a slow, buggy piece of crap and I couldn't wait to upgrade to a Tivo HD a couple of years ago. Right now you can build a Ceton-based HTPC and it will pay for itself in a couple of years vs. renting 2 DVRs.
I our area the cable company options are limited, and their DVR's are garbage.
What really sold me on WMC + ceton was the multi-room capability. We've had a multi-room setup with Beyond TV for the past 7 years and are spoiled by it. I needed to build a new PC and I already have one Xbox 360 so for me this was a no brainer.
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Originally Posted by kalex /forum/post/19085212
Microsoft needs to get off its ass and come out with soft sled concept. Then you will be able to use any Win7 MCE PC same way as extenders. Until then you have to use extenders.
Excuse the thread resurrection, but ... hold on! I was on the verge of buying a Ceton card and installing Windows 7 on my upstairs and downstairs computer. I was operating under the assumption that anything recorded on the computer with the Ceton card would be accessible from my other Windows 7 PC. Based on this comment, that won't be true for any protected content? This makes no sense that a separate extender box is required when I have a perfectly capable PC available. Please confirm this, as it will determine whether I buy Ceton or not.
I would be more likely to go for the HDHomeRun Prime since I could at least record on different PCs and make sure I record on the one I'm going to want to watch it on.
Also, once a Copy Once program is recorded on a PC, there's no way to convert to another format that COULD be read over the network on another PC?
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Originally Posted by JoshuaL /forum/post/19606084
Excuse the thread resurrection, but ... hold on! I was on the verge of buying a Ceton card and installing Windows 7 on my upstairs and downstairs computer. I was operating under the assumption that anything recorded on the computer with the Ceton card would be accessible from my other Windows 7 PC. Based on this comment, that won't be true for any protected content? This makes no sense that a separate extender box is required when I have a perfectly capable PC available. Please confirm this, as it will determine whether I buy Ceton or not.
I would be more likely to go for the HDHomeRun Prime since I could at least record on different PCs and make sure I record on the one I'm going to want to watch it on.
Also, once a Copy Once program is recorded on a PC, there's no way to convert to another format that COULD be read over the network on another PC?
Well, thanks for the info, even if it sucks. It makes my decision much easier. I'll be waiting for the HDHR Prime now. Am I correct in assuming it will be possible to record one Copy Once program from the HDHR Prime on one Windows 7 Media Center PC and simultaneously record another Copy Once program on a second Win7 MCPC? I just want to make sure I have my bases covered with the HDHR solution. I already have a normal HDHR unit so I'll already have a couple tuners available for clear-QAM stuff.
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Originally Posted by JoshuaL /forum/post/19606084
I would be more likely to go for the HDHomeRun Prime since I could at least record on different PCs and make sure I record on the one I'm going to want to watch it on.
There's beta firmware currently being tested for the Ceton that will allow the Ceton card to do the same thing. The end result is that both cards should have very similar functionality - the differences will be 4 tuners / 3 tuners, internal / external, $400 / $250. It's still unclear how soon the HDHomerun Prime will start shipping and who knows if they'll have sufficient stock from the start or have a long ramp up time to meet demand as has been happening with Ceton.
One thing I can say for sure though is that since I've added my 2nd Ceton card to my system, my Tivo HD XL has gotten no use whatsoever and I'll most likely sell it off on ebay in the near future. I've kept my BeyondTV system running as a backup (for the over the air programming, which is the bulk of what I watch) in case WMC missed anything and haven't had to use it yet. The Ceton cards and my WMC system have been rock solid so far - it's REALLY nice having a DVR with 8 CableCard tuners available and virtually unlimited storage (it's in a Norco case with 20 hot swap drive bays). I needed to deal with a few quirks in WMC initially, but once I figured out how to do so, it's been smooth sailing.
One tip is that if you want to pad your recordings, make sure you adjust each of your series recordings to record 10 (or more) minutes after (don't go with the "when possible" option). If you don't do this and have back to back recordings on the same channel, the 2nd recording will start late even if another tuner is currently available. WMC will insist on reusing the same tuner but won't write the stream to both recordings to satisfy the padding request. It's stupid, but the workaround is simple enough.
Originally Posted by JoshuaL
Well, thanks for the info, even if it sucks. It makes my decision much easier. I'll be waiting for the HDHR Prime now. Am I correct in assuming it will be possible to record one Copy Once program from the HDHR Prime on one Windows 7 Media Center PC and simultaneously record another Copy Once program on a second Win7 MCPC? I just want to make sure I have my bases covered with the HDHR solution. I already have a normal HDHR unit so I'll already have a couple tuners available for clear-QAM stuff.
Having the HDHR prime vs the Ceton doesn't change the equation at all. The scenarios remain the same (for the most part). Yes, you could potentially do what you proposed, but then, some recordings are tied to some HTPCs and are not available to others. That's no different than having multiple cable/sat boxes.
Why spend that much money to get the same functionality?
I want to get rid of my cable boxes. I'm currently spending $32 a month on top of my regular cable bill for my 2 boxes, or $384/year. My outlay of $250 for the HDHomeRun Prime + $130 for Windows 7 upgrade is made up in a year. I already have all the requisite hardware. I gain a massive increase in storage space in my upstairs location (already had a eSATA drive hooked up to by downstairs cable box). Plus, it is possible that the rules change and I am able to watch content on other PCs at some point. Even if not, picking up a cheap XBox to serve as an extender wouldn't be terribly difficult. Our general usage pattern is to watch Copy Once programs in the location they were recorded anyway.
The HDHR Prime gives me an advantage over the Ceton (at least at the present time) by letting me pick which PC to record the Copy Once programs to. Of course, all this assumes the Prime is actually released sometime soon and works as expected.
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I want to get rid of my cable boxes. I'm currently spending $32 a month on top of my regular cable bill for my 2 boxes, or $384/year. My outlay of $250 for the HDHomeRun Prime + $130 for Windows 7 upgrade is made up in a year. I already have all the requisite hardware. I gain a massive increase in storage space in my upstairs location (already had a eSATA drive hooked up to by downstairs cable box).
The only glimmer of hope might be the upcoming RemoteFX stuff, where we can run a virtualized Windows 7, and basically have multiple RDP sessions into it from a desktop perspective, but that will require the deployment Server 2008 R2, HyperV and what not. And that's assuming the damn thing works to begin with.
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Even if not, picking up a cheap XBox to serve as an extender wouldn't be terribly difficult. Our general usage pattern is to watch Copy Once programs in the location they were recorded anyway.
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The HDHR Prime gives me an advantage over the Ceton (at least at the present time) by letting me pick which PC to record the Copy Once programs to. Of course, all this assumes the Prime is actually released sometime soon and works as expected.
A few reasons for my wanting to go to some type of HD Homerun Prime:
1) Cable boxes are expensive to rent, even for only two TVs. I pay over $20/month for these.
2) Cable boxes are crap. They're terrible. I can't use the HDMI on the ones I have.
3) Comcast has added advertisements to the guide for the cable box. I HATE that.
4) Cable box programming sucks. A lot of times, if you're near the 30 or hour point, the next 30 minute or hour shows will be in the guide. If you select a channel, the idiotic box will ask if you if you want to record that show or tune to. For instance, if it's 6:28 pm, the idiotic cable box will show shows that start at 6:30. Why the heck would it do that?
I just have trouble with the aspect of having multiple computers accessing shows. I would like a center "server" (network attached storage) to store the shows, but I can't see this will work. Assuming that I record a show on one computer, how do I access that show on another computer? There are other questions I have, too. For instance, I'm using HD Homerun right now to record local shows on one computer. I have two other computers that I'd like to access the HD Homerun. It took me a long time to configure one computer with all the correct channels for HD Homerun. How do I set up the other two computers for the same?
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Originally Posted by ctviggen /forum/post/19634376
I just have trouble with the aspect of having multiple computers accessing shows. I would like a center "server" (network attached storage) to store the shows, but I can't see this will work. Assuming that I record a show on one computer, how do I access that show on another computer? There are other questions I have, too. For instance, I'm using HD Homerun right now to record local shows on one computer. I have two other computers that I'd like to access the HD Homerun. It took me a long time to configure one computer with all the correct channels for HD Homerun. How do I set up the other two computers for the same?
You can use one computer to record the shows and access them via media extenders at remote locations. The caveat of this setup is that you can't access programs in mkv and other formats due to codec limitations of the extenders. You also will not be able to play Blu-Ray discs or ripped DVDs stored on a server or HTPC via the extenders.
Setting up additional PCs for use with an HDHomeRun is done the same way as the first one you configured. You have to set each one up individually. This will allow you to record from the HDHR, but you won't be able to share recorded programs with the other PCs.
For full access to all program material from every TV in the house in a Media Center core setup, the only real solution I see is having both extenders and a small HTPC at each location, with one HTPC as the primary recording device.
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Originally Posted by captain_video /forum/post/19634813
You can use one computer to record the shows and access them via media extenders at remote locations. The caveat of this setup is that you can't access programs in mkv and other formats due to codec limitations of the extenders. You also will not be able to play Blu-Ray discs or ripped DVDs stored on a server or HTPC via the extenders.
...
For full access to all program material from every TV in the house in a Media Center core setup, the only real solution I see is having both extenders and a small HTPC at each location, with one HTPC as the primary recording device.
Or you could just rip all of your content to a supported format other than just storing it in MKV. For example h.264 or wmv. Then you could use just extenders. It requires some encoding, and you only get dolby digital, but then you can watch it on any extender. It also gives you movie only rips which take up less space and don't have all of the other garbage that I don't ever watch anywa7.
Originally Posted by captain_video
For full access to all program material from every TV in the house in a Media Center core setup, the only real solution I see is having both extenders and a small HTPC at each location, with one HTPC as the primary recording device.
And this is the reason Media Center aint more popular. Microsoft has it's head up their collective ass, when it comes to Media Center. I understand the whole profit motive (give away MC, but make the Xbox the only way to access the content, albeit in a crippled way/not all of it, and charge for the xbox), I just don't understand their complete and sheer stupidity. Either make everything accessible through Xbox, throw in a BD drive in there (and I'll happily buy 5) or just come out with softsled.
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Originally Posted by JJHTPC /forum/post/19635523
Or you could just rip all of your content to a supported format other than just storing it in MKV. For example h.264 or wmv. Then you could use just extenders. It requires some encoding, and you only get dolby digital, but then you can watch it on any extender. It also gives you movie only rips which take up less space and don't have all of the other garbage that I don't ever watch anywa7.
I only have a few shows that I downloaded via torrents that are in mkv format. I always remove the extraneous crap from Blu-Rays and DVDs when I rip them so that's not an issue. Converting my vast library of ripped movies isn't worth the effort it would take just so I could watch one on an extender. I do the vast majority of my movie viewing via my primary HTPC.
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Originally Posted by kapone /forum/post/19637030
And this is the reason Media Center aint more popular. Microsoft has it's head up their collective ass, when it comes to Media Center. I understand the whole profit motive (give away MC, but make the Xbox the only way to access the content, albeit in a crippled way/not all of it, and charge for the xbox), I just don't understand their complete and sheer stupidity. Either make everything accessible through Xbox, throw in a BD drive in there (and I'll happily buy 5) or just come out with softsled.
Amen to that. I think Microsoft's still pissed that they backed the losing HD disc format and are just too stubborn to give in and support Blu-Ray. They should take a lesson from Sony and Beta. Sony eventually relented and joined the VHS camp and started building some of the best VHS recorders on the market. If you can't beat them, then join them and beat them at their own game.
FWIW, I recently upgraded my HTPC from an AMD-based system to a CORE i5-660 CPU with 8GB of DDR3 SDRAM. My recordings are now rock solid with virtually no artifacts or pixelisation that I used to experience from either the Ceton InfiniTV 4 or my HP USB tuners. I used to use my S3 Tivo as a backup because many programs recorded with the Ceton were unwatchable. Now the Tivo is sitting there collecting dust.
The total cost of my PC is probably about $1200 with the following hardware:
CORE i5-660 CPU
Intel DH57DD motherboard with onboard graphics (capable of bitstreaming HD audio)
8GB Mushkin DDR3 1333 SDRAM
Corsair 520W PSU (I forget the exact model number)
WD 1.5TB hard drive (the AV model designed for PVR use
1TB Hitachi drive for OS and miscellaneous files
Blu-Ray combo drive (these are now as low as $39)
Ceton InfiniTV 4 CableCARD tuner
Four HP USB ATSC tuners (rebadged Hauppauge PVR-950Q tuners)
Silverstone HTPC case
External powered USB hub (for the USB tuners)
Microsoft Bluetooth keyboard and mouse
With eight tuners onboard and performance that now surpasses my Tivos, I've finally got an HTPC that meets all of the requirements I could ever want. I'm not a gamer so that's not important to me. If it is for you then a high performance graphics card and beefier i7 CPU may be what you need.
I can stream Blu-Ray rips and DVDs from my unRAID server. I can share live TV and recorded shows with media extenders throughout my house. I'll never have to worry about tuner conflicts, even with the extenders in use. In short, I don't ever see me using my Tivos for anything other than a doorstop. I loved them in the past, but I've outgrown them. Besides, everything I'm reading about the latest Tivo Premiere leads me to believe it's a total piece of crap and a giant step backwards for Tivo, Inc. If you really want a Tivo then I highly recommend looking for a Tivo HD or even an older Series 3.
I am very intrigued by the Ceton. What would be a good extender to get to couple with a Ceton? The TV's the extender(s) will go to will be 720p and the extender will be wired (no need for wireless). Out of curiosity, do extenders change resolution to match what you need to output? For example, if FOX is 1080p but the tv on the extender is only 720p, will it convert the signal? This might be a question for another thread (or more research).
Considering WMC is the only thing that supports it, the Xbox 360 is really the only extender.*
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The TV's the extender(s) will go to will be 720p and the extender will be wired (no need for wireless). Out of curiosity, do extenders change resolution to match what you need to output? For example, if FOX is 1080p but the tv on the extender is only 720p, will it convert the signal? This might be a question for another thread (or more research).
*Now, some people are using the Ceton with SageTV via Andy's SageMC tuner, so if you go that route you can use Sage's (IMO much better) extenders. The problem is you're limited to Copy Freely content that way, which maybe a huge limitation depending on your provider.
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Originally Posted by captain_video /forum/post/19640033
Besides, everything I'm reading about the latest Tivo Premiere leads me to believe it's a total piece of crap and a giant step backwards for Tivo, Inc. If you really want a Tivo then I highly recommend looking for a Tivo HD or even an older Series 3.
The Premiere is not a total piece of crap, it's essentially a faster version of the Tivo S3/HDs (and much faster when doing transfers between Premieres or Premiere and a PC). The HD UI is crap right now, yes, but you can run the old Tivo interface and have no problems.
There is no reason to buy the older boxes - you get a faster box that uses less power, has twice the drive space, and works fine with the SD UI.
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There is no reason to buy the older boxes - you get a faster box that uses less power, has twice the drive space, and works fine with the SD UI.
There's a huge reason if you don't want to get sucked into Tivo's current pricing structure. You can get the Tivo Premiere for next to nothing but then you're locked into paying $19.95 per month for the next two years. Guess what? After the two year period is over you're still stuck with the $19.95 monthly fee if you want to continue using it. It's much cheaper in the long run to buy a Tivo HD and add lifetime to it. I prefer the looks and features of the S3, but it requires two cablecards. Drive space has never been a selling point for me when it comes to Tivos. In fact, I've always bought the ones with the smallest capacities to save money. I upgrade the drives in every one I get my hands on right out of the box. I know it voids the warranty, but the vast majority of Tivo problems are drive related anyway so I just keep the original drive as a backup in the event something goes wrong. I've never had to deal with Tivo over warranty issues in the past 11 years or so.
On a related note, I swapped out one of my Linksys DMA2200's for a 4GB XBox 360. The UI on the XBox is nicer and it seems to be a better overall extender from a user standpoint. I'm not sure the differences are worth the extra cost if you can find a used Linksys or HP extender, but I'd say it's mostly a matter of personal preference. All of the extenders I've tried (XBox, Linksys, & HP) do what they're designed to do (i.e., view recorded content from a Media Center PC and utilize tuners from the same PC).
The one major shortcoming I saw with using an extender was that it did not allow me access to my vast library of media located on my unRAID server. I just picked up a Patriot Box Office media player and it's the perfect solution for allowing access to the server. The PBO can play most every media format and can play Blu-Rays ripped as iso images and DVDs ripped to folders. The one caveat is that it does not work with Blu-Ray menus so you need to strip them out from the iso. I always do this anyway using Clown_BD so I didn't have to do anything else to play my ripped Blu-Rays with the PBO. Newegg had it on sale the other day for $95 with a $45 rebate for a final cost of only $50. There are lots of other media players available that are similar, but the formats they can play and the prices are all over the place. The Missing Remote recently did a comparison of most of the currently available media players so if you're considering one you should check it out.
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