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TiVo HD or Tivo Premiere vs Ceton HTPC

37K views 130 replies 38 participants last post by  captain_video 
#1 ·
Hey guys, I searched and found that this thread was the most recent tivo HD vs HTPC. Of course, that doesn't even include the "new" premiere. It's just given me so much to think about now. /sarcasm


yeah, anyway, this isn't a thread about how good or bad the premiere is.


Personally, I'd just like to be finished w/ the monthly fees. And that brings me to the HTPC forum.


With the coming release of the Ceton Quad Tuner CableCARD PCIe adapter and the release of Windows 7 and it's integrated media center it seems as if the stars have aligned and I should be free from the monthly Tivo fees. However, before I completely jump ship, I like to have some idea of where I'm swimming. As of now, just reading the few reviews out there, znf, cnet, engadget, gizmodo, etc. It seems that the Ceton works flawlessly.


I'm hoping to implement a Windows 7 box using the HTPC build guide and sticking a Ceton in it. I'd like the Ceton to tune 3 channels via cableCARD & do one OTA for the major networks which all come in fine here in the Louisville Metro. Then I'd like to use the XBox360's Media Center Extender feature to fiddle w/ all this jazz from all the remote locations in the house.


So, since no one knows how this is all going to go down yet w/ this "network availability" feature of the Ceton cards. I guess I'm just looking for some input / speculation.


Will the 360's or other Media Center be able to channel live TV from the Ceton Windows 7 box through my personal interwebs to my TVs?


Anyone else out there dumping the old TiVo HD boxes for the new Windows 7 + Ceton setups with Media Center Extenders?
 
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#102 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by captain_video /forum/post/19663446


All of the extenders I've tried (XBox, Linksys, & HP) do what they're designed to do (i.e., view recorded content from a Media Center PC and utilize tuners from the same PC).

Yeah, they do what they're designed to do, but they do not work as well as a Tivo nor are they as flexible when you add pyTivo, kmttg, or streambaby to the Tivos - you don't have to buy a separate 'media player' to access all your content this way.


You can still get a Premiere with lifetime service, but you might have to do some digging - any box originally purchased before 11/14 is eligible and folks have been selling lots of these on fleabay and craigslist. And the current whacked Tivo pricing scheme is only running until 12/31 anyway, so they might go back to the old one after the first of the year.
 
#103 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by slowbiscuit /forum/post/19665975


Yeah, they do what they're designed to do, but they do not work as well as a Tivo nor are they as flexible when you add pyTivo, kmttg, or streambaby to the Tivos - you don't have to buy a separate 'media player' to access all your content this way.

There are pluses and minuses to both options (Tivo and WMC). For me, the ability to have a single DVR with 8 (or more) tuners, virtually unlimited recording space, and 1 central recording schedule FAR outweighs any advantages the Tivo offers. Since I got my Ceton cards setup several months ago, my Tivo has gone unused and I really haven't missed it. Once I figured out how to work around a few relatively minor quirks in how WMC allocates tuners for back to back recordings on the same channel, I've had no problems - no lost recordings, no truncated recordings, no problems setting it up to record what I want, no playback issues, etc. Basically, the only thing it doesn't have that I might care about is the Tivo suggestions feature which was of questionable value anyway.


I have no problem with having another device in my system to play different media types (I've got a PS3, the XBOX used mostly as an extender, a HTPC (separate from the box that's used for recording), and an OPPO BDP-93, so I've got plenty of ways to play my media). I wouldn't use a Tivo, XBOX, or PS3 to play DVD's (the actual discs or rips) anyway as the HTPC and OPPO deliver superior picture quality.


For people with different priorities, Tivo might be the better option. What's really nice is that we have these options to choose from so nearly anyone can pick something they're happy with.
 
#104 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by slowbiscuit /forum/post/19665975


Yeah, they do what they're designed to do, but they do not work as well as a Tivo nor are they as flexible when you add pyTivo, kmttg, or streambaby to the Tivos - you don't have to buy a separate 'media player' to access all your content this way.


You can still get a Premiere with lifetime service, but you might have to do some digging - any box originally purchased before 11/14 is eligible and folks have been selling lots of these on fleabay and craigslist. And the current whacked Tivo pricing scheme is only running until 12/31 anyway, so they might go back to the old one after the first of the year.

A media extender and media player won't cost you anywhere near what a separate Tivo will for each TV. Each setup has its pros and cons so you'd have to decide which is right for you.


BTW, does either streaming app allow you to stream Blu-Rays to the Tivo for viewing on a remote TV? My media player does. That is a serious deal breaker for me. Tivos are extremely limited as to the types of video formats they will support. Having to transcode or convert existing media to a format compatible with a Tivo is a lot of unnecessary work and is just not worth the effort when you consider that I can stream them as is using my setup. I see that the Premiere now supports 1080P, but it still lacks support for HD audio.


I've been a loyal fan and user of Tivos for almost 11 years now and I've all but retired my last one. I've experienced long-term usage of Tivos and I prefer my Windows Media Center setup. Even with the apps for streaming shows to and from a Tivo, they simply don't compare to a Media Center PC for all it can do. When you consider the added features of a fully functional PC to the mix, Tivo doesn't even come close, IMHO. I used to be joined to my Tivos at the hip until I realized there are other methods to do the same things better and cheaper.
 
#105 ·
Do they compare to an MCE PC for all it can do? No. Do they compare to an extender? Yes, very favorably. If Microsoft had ever released softsled I would answer differently, but the current extenders are a poor solution to the problem (for a variety of reasons).


Agreed that this is all a matter of opinion on how you want to use them - for example, if I wanted to watch Blu-Rays I'd use a player local to the TV, not streaming. But I don't rip anything.


Neither solution is superior to the other for all uses, it's just a matter of opinion.
 
#106 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr /forum/post/19666415


Basically, the only thing it doesn't have that I might care about is the Tivo suggestions feature which was of questionable value anyway.

I'm a big sports fan and Tivo's advanced wishlists are a feature that I use extensively - I have WL's set to record NASCAR, IndyCar, MotoGP, AMA, and F1 races but not qualifying or practices, and Tivo will do this automatically, every year, without me having to bother with anything. Nice to have boolean search options that are not available on 7MC.


And I have noticed that 7MC's guide is not as accurate as Tivo's - I've had shows set for new-only that have recorded repeats, and others that recorded shows that were pre-empted that Tivo did not record.
 
#107 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by slowbiscuit /forum/post/19669221


I'm a big sports fan and Tivo's advanced wishlists are a feature that I use extensively - I have WL's set to record NASCAR, IndyCar, MotoGP, AMA, and F1 races but not qualifying or practices, and Tivo will do this automatically, every year, without me having to bother with anything. Nice to have boolean search options that are not available on 7MC.


And I have noticed that 7MC's guide is not as accurate as Tivo's - I've had shows set for new-only that have recorded repeats, and others that recorded shows that were pre-empted that Tivo did not record.

MCE also has a wishlist record feature. I can't say how it compares to Tivo's because I rarely use it on either platform. Guide accuracy depends entirely on the source. Neither Tivo or Microsoft generate the guide data. It all comes from third parties, and they're at the mercy of the programmers to provide them with correct and current data. I've had numerous instances where the guide data in MCE was more accurate than my Tivo, but obviously, YMMV.
 
#108 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by slowbiscuit /forum/post/19669221


I'm a big sports fan and Tivo's advanced wishlists are a feature that I use extensively - I have WL's set to record NASCAR, IndyCar, MotoGP, AMA, and F1 races but not qualifying or practices, and Tivo will do this automatically, every year, without me having to bother with anything. Nice to have boolean search options that are not available on 7MC.

Features that I have no need for, so obviously a YMMV type of thing. With WMC, I'm able to setup the series recordings I need for "normal" TV shows like CSI and wishlists that handle recording hockey games (1 for "Bruins At" and another for "At Bruins" has been 100% reliable so far), so I'm good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by slowbiscuit /forum/post/19669221


And I have noticed that 7MC's guide is not as accurate as Tivo's - I've had shows set for new-only that have recorded repeats, and others that recorded shows that were pre-empted that Tivo did not record.

Another YMMV type of thing - I've found minor glitches in guide data on both and so far I've found that neither is better or worse than the other.


This really hasn't been pointed out yet, but it's actually not an apples to apples comparison to compare a single standalone Tivo system to a WMC system that's only accessed via an extender. The proper comparison would be a standalone Tivo compared to a standalone WMC system in which case the WMC system wins hands down in streaming support. The standalone WMC system can also have virtually unlimited storage and far more than the 2 tuners the Tivo will have.


If you add a 2nd Tivo and correspondingly a WMC Extender, then you have to compare how easy it is to configure TV recordings across all available tuners in the house (with Tivo, you need to go to each box which means manual conflict resolution is needed, while with WMC you can centrally configure all recordings from any extender or the main WMC box), sharing TV shows with any TV in the house (do the new Tivos stream the content or do they still copy the entire show to the 2nd Tivo and how much of a delay is there before you can start watching the show on the 2nd box?), AND streaming other content to make a valid comparison.


The Tivo solution is really dreadful if there are more than 2 things on at the same time that you care to record as the only way to handle that is to get a 2nd Tivo and then manually allocate the recordings across the 2 DVR's. Of course, if you never have the need to watch / record more than 2 things at a time, this is a moot point.


I think I can honestly say that I've used both solutions extensively. I've used Tivo since the initial DirecTV Tivo box (and did some amount of hacking to add extra disc space and some other functionality) and switched to a Tivo HD XL when I switched to FIOS a little over a year ago. I started using Windows Media Center early this year (with just OTA tuners while I waited for the Cetons) side by side with the Tivo (and my BeyondTV system which served mostly as a backup at that point). For my set of needs, WMC is the far superior option. If the advanced wishlist features that Tivo provides are needed by a particular user or the user isn't somewhat technically savvy, then Tivo may be the better choice.


The bottom line is that NEITHER solution is perfect, so each person should evaluate both and go with the option that best suits their particular needs and skill level.


Personally, I see the streaming comparison as a non-issue. I'm looking at these options primarily for their TV capabilities as neither is even close to being an ideal streaming solution for other content and my HTPC and OPPO BDP-93 are both far superior streaming solutions and neither the XBOX nor the Tivo can play Blu-rays so I need another box anyway.
 
#109 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by captain_video /forum/post/19670533


MCE also has a wishlist record feature.

Simple WL's with a keyword or phrase, yes - advanced WL's with boolean search capability, no. They make things easier for certain recordings, that's all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr /forum/post/19671966


This really hasn't been pointed out yet, but it's actually not an apples to apples comparison to compare a single standalone Tivo system to a WMC system that's only accessed via an extender. The proper comparison would be a standalone Tivo compared to a standalone WMC system in which case the WMC system wins hands down in streaming support. The standalone WMC system can also have virtually unlimited storage and far more than the 2 tuners the Tivo will have.

I think a simple setup with a couple of Tivos compares well with a 7MC Ceton box with one extender (same # of tuners, and it's very easy to upgrade the Tivos with 2TB drives). Once you move past two boxes I think 7MC has the edge, both cost and ease-of-management wise. But it means that you'll have to put up with all the shortcomings of extenders, and that's sad.
 
#110 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by slowbiscuit /forum/post/19673511


I think a simple setup with a couple of Tivos compares well with a 7MC Ceton box with one extender (same # of tuners, and it's very easy to upgrade the Tivos with 2TB drives). Once you move past two boxes I think 7MC has the edge, both cost and ease-of-management wise. But it means that you'll have to put up with all the shortcomings of extenders, and that's sad.

God help you if you ever have to deal with Tivo customer support. That is beyond sad to the point of being a complete travesty.
The way I see it, Tivos are more likely to be used by the less technically inclined, mainly because they're easy to set up and use right out of the box. That's not meant to completely discount any Tivo geeks in the audience because there are many loyal Tivo followers that still think they're the best thing going. Had the Ceton InfiniTV never come to market, I'd be inclined to agree with that philosophy. The fact is, it is here and it is a serious contender as a Tivo replacement. I've already replaced mine and don't regret it one bit.


HTPCs and media extenders are for the more adventurous hobbyists and tweakers, mostly because the mainstream user simply isn't aware of what Media Center can do or that they even have it on their PCs. Microsoft has seriously dropped the ball when it comes to promoting Media Center. Those of us that have used both MCE and Tivos extensively know which works best for our needs. MCE is not for everyone, but you'll never know unless you give it a chance. My one regret is that I never tried it before Windows 7.
 
#111 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by slowbiscuit /forum/post/19673511


I think a simple setup with a couple of Tivos compares well with a 7MC Ceton box with one extender (same # of tuners, and it's very easy to upgrade the Tivos with 2TB drives). Once you move past two boxes I think 7MC has the edge, both cost and ease-of-management wise. But it means that you'll have to put up with all the shortcomings of extenders, and that's sad.

Once you go beyond a single Tivo, managing recordings turns into a royal PITA because there's no feature that essentially merges the boxes into 1 big DVR with centralized recording management. If you want to watch something recorded on Tivo #1 in another room on Tivo #2, the way you go about that is inferior to how you do it with WMC extenders. I can (and have) also easily add a 2nd Ceton tuner to the WMC box to give me 8 tuners (using Tuner Salad to extend the 4 tuners per type limit to 8 tuners per type) which means you would need 4 Tivo's to get the same number of tuners and 4 versus 2 monthly CableCard rental fees. If you're only using a single TV, there's no need to worry about extenders. Remember, the extra tuners can be used to either feed live TV to extenders OR record more simultaneous shows, depending on what your needs are. I haven't needed 8 tuners at any given time yet, but I did get to 7 once and didn't need to manually balance the recordings across multiple Tivo's in the process.


You seem obsessed with the fact that the Tivo can stream some media formats that the XBOX doesn't support, but seem to be ignoring the fact that it's ultimately a poor solution because it can't handle the new HD audio formats (which means it's useless for streaming Blu-ray rips) and is really poor at upconverting content such as ripped DVD's when compared to better streamers such as a HTPC or one of the recent OPPO offerings. There are also plugins available for WMC that address some of the streaming limitations in the XBOX by transcoding to a supported format, though I'd still agree that the XBOX is far from a perfect streaming solution.
 
#112 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by captain_video /forum/post/19676019


God help you if you ever have to deal with Tivo customer support. That is beyond sad to the point of being a complete travesty.

And what support do you get with a Ceton/DIY HTPC? None?

Quote:
Microsoft has seriously dropped the ball when it comes to promoting Media Center.

They've dropped a lot more balls than that.


Now I don't like Tivo, but I don't really like WMC either. MS lost me when they wouldn't sell the original MCE to end users (even via OEM licenses). I had to find other solutions and I'm glad I did because IMO unless you absolutely need CableCard, there are better ones out there.
 
#113 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 /forum/post/19677540


And what support do you get with a Ceton/DIY HTPC? None?

Obviously you have not been following any of the Ceton threads over at the Green Button forums. Ceton has proven to have excellent support with timely responses to all support questions. They are a model that other companies should follow. Tivo, Inc., should take a serious lesson from them.


Most people that build their own HTPCs have enough savvy to troubleshoot their own problems. If they have problems with a specific piece of hardware then they need to contact that vendor for support. Google is your friend when it comes to finding solutions for PC problems. In other words, there's a plethora of support for DIY PCs if you just look around.


FWIW, many people buy pre-built PCs from HP or other brands and install the Ceton tuner to create an instant Media Center PC. The PC manufacturer has their own support system in place to aid their customers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 /forum/post/19677540


Now I don't like Tivo, but I don't really like WMC either. MS lost me when they wouldn't sell the original MCE to end users (even via OEM licenses). I had to find other solutions and I'm glad I did because IMO unless you absolutely need CableCard, there are better ones out there.

That's the primary reason why I never got into using WMC until Win 7 was released. I had no desire to purchase a pre-built HTPC just to get an XP Media Center system. You couldn't force me to use Vista in any way, shape, or form.


I seriously doubt that you could find a better solution than a CableCARD PC that allows you to record HD content in full HD with 5.1 audio or provide support for Blu-Ray playback with bitstreamed HD audio. Streamed content from the internet is a tradeoff at best, and BT sources are a mixed bag. The HD-PVR is probably the next best thing to CableCARD, but it requires too much extraneous hardware. The expense of using four HD-PVRs and renting four HD cable boxes would more than pay for the Ceton and most, if not all, of the PC hardware you'd need for a full-blown HTPC.


I have not had the pleasure of using SageTV, MythTV, or any of the media center/DVR variants out there. If any of them supported CableCARD, then I'd agree that there may be better solutions available than WMC. Until that happens, WMC is the best choice out there for my needs.
 
#114 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr /forum/post/19676382


Once you go beyond a single Tivo, managing recordings turns into a royal PITA because there's no feature that essentially merges the boxes into 1 big DVR with centralized recording management. If you want to watch something recorded on Tivo #1 in another room on Tivo #2, the way you go about that is inferior to how you do it with WMC extenders. I can (and have) also easily add a 2nd Ceton tuner to the WMC box to give me 8 tuners (using Tuner Salad to extend the 4 tuners per type limit to 8 tuners per type) which means you would need 4 Tivo's to get the same number of tuners and 4 versus 2 monthly CableCard rental fees. If you're only using a single TV, there's no need to worry about extenders. Remember, the extra tuners can be used to either feed live TV to extenders OR record more simultaneous shows, depending on what your needs are. I haven't needed 8 tuners at any given time yet, but I did get to 7 once and didn't need to manually balance the recordings across multiple Tivo's in the process.


You seem obsessed with the fact that the Tivo can stream some media formats that the XBOX doesn't support, but seem to be ignoring the fact that it's ultimately a poor solution because it can't handle the new HD audio formats (which means it's useless for streaming Blu-ray rips) and is really poor at upconverting content such as ripped DVD's when compared to better streamers such as a HTPC or one of the recent OPPO offerings. There are also plugins available for WMC that address some of the streaming limitations in the XBOX by transcoding to a supported format, though I'd still agree that the XBOX is far from a perfect streaming solution.

Do I wish that Tivo had centralized recording management (i.e., single-view of all DVRs)? Yes, of course. Is it a royal PITA to manage recordings on a couple of Tivos? No. More than a couple? Yes, but I was comparing two Tivos to an HTPC with an extender - I'll grant that once you move past that the HTPC setup has the edge.


I've already said that I don't rip or stream Blu-Rays - if I want to watch them I'll use a player. Tivo makes it easier to watch internet content (mostly BT'd stuff) than using an extender. We also use the YouTube and Pandora players on the Tivos.
 
#116 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by slowbiscuit /forum/post/19678484


Is it a royal PITA to manage recordings on a couple of Tivos? No.

If the Tivos are hooked up to a single TV in the same room, it's a manageable problem. If they're in different rooms, it's a royal PITA to me compared to having it centralized.

Quote:
Originally Posted by captain_video /forum/post/19678516


I don't recall exactly where I read it, but I believe I heard that Tivo is coming out with an update that will allow you to manage conflicts between multiple networked Tivos. This has always been a major issue when using multiple Tivos.

Hopefully that happens.


Tivo would also need to address multi-room viewing restrictions to make it a fully workable solution. Based on my understanding from here , you still have to transfer (rather than stream) the show to the Tivo you want to watch it on and copy protected content (which I assume would mean copy once programming) can't be transferred. At least for my needs, I would need to be able to watch recorded shows from any Tivo on any Tivo in the house (or at least on the Tivo that's hooked up to the primary TV in the house).


If they find a way to address these 2 items, N-Tivo's to get enough tuners to meet your simultaneous recording needs and/or enough Tivo's so each TV has one would make for a really nice whole house DVR system.
 
#117 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by captain_video
Obviously you have not been following any of the Ceton threads over at the Green Button forums. Ceton has proven to have excellent support with timely responses to all support questions. They are a model that other companies should follow. Tivo, Inc., should take a serious lesson from them.
No I haven't followed that, but that's not really my point. Ceton is only one small component of an HTPC, you've got WMC, ATI/nVidia/Intel drivers, decoders. There is no support (beyond forums) for integrating all of that, because you have to build it yourself (well unless you buy a Vidabox or something).

Quote:
Most people that build their own HTPCs have enough savvy to troubleshoot their own problems. If they have problems with a specific piece of hardware then they need to contact that vendor for support. Google is your friend when it comes to finding solutions for PC problems. In other words, there's a plethora of support for DIY PCs if you just look around.
But no official support, and the onus is still on you to narrow down the problem and identify it.

Quote:
FWIW, many people buy pre-built PCs from HP or other brands and install the Ceton tuner to create an instant Media Center PC. The PC manufacturer has their own support system in place to aid their customers.
Are they going to help you with a Ceton card in your Dell or HP? I doubt it. Now I'm sure Niveus or Vidabox give great support, but you pay for it there.


My point is only you're the integrator for your HTPC, so there's no one you can call up to get support for it. It's all on you.

Quote:
I seriously doubt that you could find a better solution than a CableCARD PC that allows you to record HD content in full HD with 5.1 audio or provide support for Blu-Ray playback with bitstreamed HD audio.
Except the extenders are worthless and there's still no satellite solution (I will not subscribe to cable, at least not with my current provider options). Of course I don't have the (IMO rather irrational) aversion to using a "box" and recording analog.


I've been doing everything you describe above (HD and 5.1 audio) for several years already, I didn't have to wait for CableCard, I don't have DRM problems, I'm not stuck with cable, and I can stream BDs (with bitstreamed audio) from extenders.

Quote:
Streamed content from the internet is a tradeoff at best, and BT sources are a mixed bag. The HD-PVR is probably the next best thing to CableCARD, but it requires too much extraneous hardware. The expense of using four HD-PVRs and renting four HD cable boxes would more than pay for the Ceton and most, if not all, of the PC hardware you'd need for a full-blown HTPC.
Too bad WMC extenders are crippled meaning you effectively need multiple HTPCs. Oh yeah, but you can't integrate them because there's no software extenders. So then you need extenders and HTPCs, or live with no live TV or scheduling from "clients".

Quote:
I have not had the pleasure of using SageTV, MythTV, or any of the media center/DVR variants out there. If any of them supported CableCARD, then I'd agree that there may be better solutions available than WMC. Until that happens, WMC is the best choice out there for my needs.
If all you care about is TV and CableCard, then yeah, WMC+Extenders is a pretty good solution. But given the pathetic extenders, DRM restrictions, and other limitations, I just don't see any benefit to WMC over something like a Moxi. In fact just looking, Moxi's "extenders" look better than WMC's.


Moxi has, expandable eSATA storage (up to 6TB they claim), 3 CC support, multi-room support, DLNA media support. Yeah, no HBR bitstreaming, but it seems Moxi is what WMC+CC is really up against.
 
#118 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 /forum/post/19680798


No I haven't followed that, but that's not really my point. Ceton is only one small component of an HTPC, you've got WMC, ATI/nVidia/Intel drivers, decoders. There is no support (beyond forums) for integrating all of that, because you have to build it yourself (well unless you buy a Vidabox or something).

You might as well say it's worthless to have a PC if that's your argument.

Quote:
But no official support, and the onus is still on you to narrow down the problem and identify it.

Seriously? You make me wonder why you own a PC if they're so much trouble.

Quote:
Are they going to help you with a Ceton card in your Dell or HP? I doubt it. Now I'm sure Niveus or Vidabox give great support, but you pay for it there.

Ceton has their own support and built-in diagnostics software included in the installation package. Just run it and post the log in their forums when you request a service ticket. They usually get back to you with a resolution within about 24-48 hours. They don't charge you anything for support. The fact that they're a small company means that they are willing to go the extra mile for their customers.

Quote:
My point is only you're the integrator for your HTPC, so there's no one you can call up to get support for it. It's all on you.

Anyone who builds their own PC understands this so I'm not sure why you keep beating the dead horse. I have no problem being my own PC support person.

Quote:
Except the extenders are worthless and there's still no satellite solution (I will not subscribe to cable, at least not with my current provider options). Of course I don't have the (IMO rather irrational) aversion to using a "box" and recording analog.

Of course there's a satellite solution. It's called digital cable or FIOS.
I had DirecTV for over 10 years before switching to FIOS and Comcast for at least as many years prior to getting DirecTV. DirecTV customer service has gone way downhill since I first signed up with them I don't like any service provider that extorts customers into a commitment for signing up for any new service or making changes to an existing account. Perhaps you weren't around back in the day when the only way to record DirecTV HD channels was to pay $1000 for a DVR that was eventually abandoned, leaving countless customers with expensive paperweights. Talk about worthless.
Now you have to pay hundreds of dollars for a HD-DVR you don't even own and then pay monthly fees to keep using it.


Extenders aren't perfect, but they're far from worthless. If that's your opinion, and it obviously is, then you're welcome to it. Many here would certainly disagree with it. They do have their shortcomings, but for what they're designed to do, they do it quite well.

Quote:
I've been doing everything you describe above (HD and 5.1 audio) for several years already, I didn't have to wait for CableCard, I don't have DRM problems, I'm not stuck with cable, and I can stream BDs (with bitstreamed audio) from extenders.

Glad to hear it. Same goes for me.

Quote:
Too bad WMC extenders are crippled meaning you effectively need multiple HTPCs. Oh yeah, but you can't integrate them because there's no software extenders. So then you need extenders and HTPCs, or live with no live TV or scheduling from "clients".

I've already mentioned at least one solution for accessing all types of media from each TV that doesn't require multiple HTPCs.

Quote:
If all you care about is TV and CableCard, then yeah, WMC+Extenders is a pretty good solution. But given the pathetic extenders, DRM restrictions, and other limitations, I just don't see any benefit to WMC over something like a Moxi. In fact just looking, Moxi's "extenders" look better than WMC's.


Moxi has, expandable eSATA storage (up to 6TB they claim), 3 CC support, multi-room support, DLNA media support. Yeah, no HBR bitstreaming, but it seems Moxi is what WMC+CC is really up against.

I just looked at the Moxi and it does look interesting, but it also has severe limitations for serious users. I do like the fact that it has no monthly fees attached. Aside from the ability to add more storage (which you can do with both Tivos and HTPCs), you're still locked into a specific hardware platform with little or no expandability beyond adding additional extenders. With Tivos, you at least have the ability to hack it to add more functionality over and above a stock unit.


The basic Moxi DVR has only three tuners and I didn't see if there is any provision for adding another base unit to increase the number of tuners. My HTPC has eight tuners (four digital cable and four ATSC) so I can not only share tuners between multiple extenders but I can also record additional FIOS and OTA HD channels at the same time. If you've got three people watching TV simultaneously on the Moxi system you can't record anything until a tuner gets freed up. That sounds pretty crippled to me.


I think we can both agree to disagree on the issue. There is no perfect solution for everyone. WMC does have its limitations, but there are numerous workarounds to fill in the gaps. Same holds true for Tivo or Moxi or whatever system floats your boat. Go with whatever suits your needs and desires. Just remember - it's only TV.
 
#120 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by captain_video /forum/post/19682070


You might as well say it's worthless to have a PC if that's your argument.



Seriously? You make me wonder why you own a PC if they're so much trouble.

You miss my point, which is that your implied argument that Tivo's support is worse.

Quote:
Ceton has their own support and built-in diagnostics software included in the installation package. Just run it and post the log in their forums when you request a service ticket. They usually get back to you with a resolution within about 24-48 hours. They don't charge you anything for support. The fact that they're a small company means that they are willing to go the extra mile for their customers.

Doesn't do you any good if your problem lies somewhere else (as it usually will on a PC).

Quote:
Anyone who builds their own PC understands this so I'm not sure why you keep beating the dead horse. I have no problem being my own PC support person.

I don't either, but you brought up the issue of Tivo's support. Which while maybe not good, exits, it isn't you. That's my only point.

Quote:
Of course there's a satellite solution. It's called digital cable or FIOS.

Don't have FIOS here, and my Cable choice is the worst provider in the nation. I'd probably lose half to three quarters of the HD networks I've got now with Dish, it would cost more, and my use would be more limited.

Quote:
I had DirecTV for over 10 years before switching to FIOS and Comcast for at least as many years prior to getting DirecTV. DirecTV customer service has gone way downhill since I first signed up with them I don't like any service provider that extorts customers into a commitment for signing up for any new service or making changes to an existing account. Perhaps you weren't around back in the day when the only way to record DirecTV HD channels was to pay $1000 for a DVR that was eventually abandoned, leaving countless customers with expensive paperweights. Talk about worthless.
Now you have to pay hundreds of dollars for a HD-DVR you don't even own and then pay monthly fees to keep using it.

No I signed up for Dish when I could get 70+ channels in HD vs like 7 on Mediacon.

Quote:
Extenders aren't perfect, but they're far from worthless. If that's your opinion, and it obviously is, then you're welcome to it. Many here would certainly disagree with it. They do have their shortcomings, but for what they're designed to do, they do it quite well.

If all you want to do is watch TV, they're fine, but then what's the point of using a PC backend. If MS hadn't (intentionally) crippled them it would be a different story.
 
#121 ·
Well they can be used for more than live or recorded TV - as gsr mentioned there are plugins available (DVRMSToolbox and the shark007 codec pack, mainly) that allow you to transcode pretty much everything to a supported format. But it's still a mixed bag watching these shows on an extender - some work well, some don't.


As I've said in other threads, your Sage solution is an expensive and power-sucking kludge with all the HD-PVRs and sat STBs. But you don't have DRM, and for some that's more important than anything else. I don't care, Comcast only protects the premiums here and I'm not a video hoarder anyway.
 
#122 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by slowbiscuit /forum/post/19685362


As I've said in other threads, your Sage solution is an expensive and power-sucking kludge with all the HD-PVRs and sat STBs. But you don't have DRM, and for some that's more important than anything else.

I'm not tied to a crappy provider either, and I have extenders that aren't a "mixed bag".


IMO the HD PVR is much less of a kludge than what you have to do with WMC extenders to use them for anything beyond wmv files (ie DVDs or BDs).
 
#123 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 /forum/post/19682261


You miss my point, which is that your implied argument that Tivo's support is worse.


Doesn't do you any good if your problem lies somewhere else (as it usually will on a PC).


I don't either, but you brought up the issue of Tivo's support. Which while maybe not good, exits, it isn't you. That's my only point.


Don't have FIOS here, and my Cable choice is the worst provider in the nation. I'd probably lose half to three quarters of the HD networks I've got now with Dish, it would cost more, and my use would be more limited.


No I signed up for Dish when I could get 70+ channels in HD vs like 7 on Mediacon.


If all you want to do is watch TV, they're fine, but then what's the point of using a PC backend. If MS hadn't (intentionally) crippled them it would be a different story.

Rather than go through a line-by-line rebuttal, let me summarize:


I didn't bring up the subject of tech support initially. I just responded to your original comments. Ceton has shown to provide better support than Tivo by a huge margin. Anyone building an HTPC should already have enough of a knowledge base so that they don't require tech support except in the most extreme cases. In other words, if you can't deal with PC problems yourself, then you should probably find another way to enjoy your media. Support from Tivo is about the same as dealing with it yourself, which is to say, they totally suck when it comes to supporting their products.


I pity anyone that is not technical enough to fix their own Tivos because they won't get much sympathy or help from Tivo without having to shell out more money. Tivo will be glad to provide you with a refurbished Tivo to replace your broken one, as long as you're willing to pay for it. Most Tivo problems are drive related and can usually be repaired by the end user by simply installing a fresh image on a replacement drive. I had the foresight to have learned this process many years ago such that I have never had to deal directly with Tivo or DirecTV tech support.


I followed the early exploits of the Tivo hacking pioneers when Tivo discussions were still a part of these forums (i.e., before they split off and became the Tivo Community Forum). I hacked my very first Tivo using Dylan's boot disc, which was the early precursor to MFSTools. I also used to be a moderator for a Tivo hacking forum back in the day, so I'm no stranger to a Tivo's capabilities, both as a stock device and one modified to do things above and beyond a normal Tivo. That being said, having such an vested interest in Tivos, I do not take the comparison lightly between a Tivo and an MC-based PC. Sorry if I'm tooting my own horn, but I felt it was relevant that you know how vested I am in the use of Tivos. I loved them in their day, but that day is long past. An HTPC is the next logical step in the evolution of home media, IMHO.


The question of support for either a Media Center PC with the Ceton card or a Tivo isn't the issue here. If you decide to travel down the HTPC path then you should already know what you're in for. A Tivo setup will be more likely attractive to the novice user whereas an HTPC will appeal to someone more advanced technically.
 
#124 ·
I'm a new Tivo Premiere owner and have spent 5 hours with Comcast and Tivo support and 2 m-cards, and it still doesn't acquire channels. I'm at the end of my patience and not happy with my Tivo experience so far.


Sorry for the rant but if Ceton was available I'd buy it in a heartbeat.
 
#125 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by captain_video /forum/post/19686859


Rather than go through a line-by-line rebuttal

I just like to keep my comments in context.

Quote:
I didn't bring up the subject of tech support initially.
If you go back and look , you'll see my comment about support was in response to your post about Tivo support.

Quote:
An HTPC is the next logical step in the evolution of home media, IMHO.

I would agree if CableCard wasn't limited to WMC, and/or if WMC weren't such a fragmented, incomplete whole-house solution. With WMC you have to choose between whole house DVR (using extenders) or whole house media (using HTPCs).


Unfortunately MS doesn't have the will/vision to make WMC what it could be, and it could be a lot. Instead they impose silly limitations that nobody else does.
 
#126 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 /forum/post/19686982


Unfortunately MS doesn't have the will/vision to make WMC what it could be, and it could be a lot. Instead they impose silly limitations that nobody else does.

To be fair, it's not like Tivo comes with no restrictions. For example, as I pointed out in a previous post Tivo doesn't have a multi room solution that works for watching copy protected recordings on any TV in the house while WMC does. Another example (also previously pointed out): Tivo also doesn't have an option that pools all tuners across all Tivo's within the house while WMC can have a LOT of tuners in the one box. Each user needs to evaluate the options and pick the one that best fits their needs - no available solution is perfect for all people.
 
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