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#1 ·

I've been in several threads lately where the topic has been all about Audyssey and I've noted that there's not actually a thread specifically for it. There's one that seems to be about it, but it's titled as being about the Denon 3806. Audyssey, of course, exists in far more receivers than the 3806 nowadays, so I thought I'd throw a starter into the pool to see if people were interested in having one thread to discuss all Audyssey issues/comments/questions/stories/impressions that they've come up with from their personal receiver-experiences.


Myself, i was quite anti-Audyssey when I first came across it. My ears were quite used to what they'd had before which was very bass & treble heavy. Time has passed and I've really come to understand the strengths of Audyssey and respect the clean, flat signal that I now love and enjoy (and couldn't imagine being without). I'd love to hear from anyone else that wants to chime in or discuss issues.


Basic starter-links:


The Audyssey homepage .


The types of Audyssey implimentations in different receivers.



The Audyssey FAQ


The Audyssey setup guide


====

Audyssey tips:

Microphone Placement


The microphone has been calibrated for grazing incidence and so it must point to the ceiling during calibration. Any other orientation will produce incorrect results.


The microphone response has been calibrated to match (on average) the response of an industry-standard ¼ instrumentation microphone. It is critical to use the microphone that came with the receiver and not one from another model that may have a different calibration curve.


It is also important to place the microphone on a tripod or other stand so that it is at ear height. We strongly recommend against holding the microphone in your hand because this can give rise to low frequency handling noise that will cause the MultEQ filters to compensate by cutting those frequencies. Furthermore, it is not recommended to place the microphone on the back of the couch or recliner. If a tripod is used, care must be taken to ensure that the microphone is placed at a height just above the seat back so that reflections from the seat do not cause problems at higher frequencies.


The first microphone position is used to calculate the distances to each loudspeaker and subwoofer and set the delays. It is also used to measure and set the trims. So, it is important to place the microphone in the main listening seat for the first measurement.


MultEQ measures the background noise level in the room before playing the test signal from each speaker. For the measurements to be valid, the signal to noise ratio must be above a certain threshold. If it is not, the test signal from that speaker will repeat at a higher level. If the noise in the room happens to be higher during some of the speaker measurements, then the test signals from those speakers will sound louder than the test signals from the other speakers. This does not affect the calculation of trim levels. If the room noise is too high even after the test signals increase in level, then an error message will be displayed warning the user that measurements can not be completed.


After the first position is measured, MultEQ measures other positions in the room around the listening area. These do not necessarily have to be in each individual seat. The idea is to capture as many points around the listening area as possible so that the acoustical problems that affect the quality of sound within that area are minimized.


For example, we recommend taking 3 positions on the couch facing the TV and then 3 more positions about 3 feet in front of the couch and parallel to the first three. Measurements up against the back or side walls should be avoided.


Some loudspeakers have rather problematic responses when measured off-axis (i.e. more than 15° away from the imaginary straight line that points to the listening position). In these systems, measurements taken too far away from the center line will show a reduced high-frequency response that may result in overcorrection and thus overly bright sound. Although it is difficult to predict which type of loudspeaker will have these off-axis problems we have most often observed them in poorly-designed multiple-driver arrays that exhibit very high off-axis lobing. In these situations we recommend a tighter calibration pattern centered around the main listening position and making sure that the mic is not placed in extreme locations and certainly not outside the plane of the front main speakers.

Checking the Results


Once MultEQ calibration is complete the results are stored in the receiver memory.


It is important to activate MultEQ by selecting one of the target curves. This is not performed by default after the calibration is finished and must be selected by the user. In a THX system we recommend using the Flat setting that allows the re-equalization to work as intended. In other systems, we recommend Audyssey for movie playback and Flat for music playback. Unfortunately, the music industry does not have any mixing standards like the movie industry so some music program material may sound better with the Audyssey setting. Front Align also uses the Audyssey process, but it does not apply the filters to the two front loudspeakers. Manual is not an Audyssey setting and does not use MultEQ filters. It is a simple parametric equalizer and will be subject to all the limitations that come with parametric EQ.


Small vs. Large speakers. This is the most commonly discussed topic by MultEQ users. The first thing to understand is that it is not a personal insult to your system if your speakers were detected as Small. It simply means, that in the room they were measured the - 3 dB point was detected at 80 Hz or above. This may happen even if the manufacturer's spec shows that the speaker is capable of playing lower. In fact, there are several benefits at crossing the speakers over at 80 Hz that have to do with power handling and headroom in the bass region that will be handled by the subwoofer amplifier.


The second most common question also relates to Small vs. Large. In the Denon receivers, MultEQ will designate as Large any speaker that has a -3 dB point below 80 Hz. For non-THX speaker systems this is an arbitrary definition that often causes confusion. All it means is that the speaker will not be bass managed unless the user tells it to be. Because Audyssey is not in charge of bass management, we have to abide by the manufacturers' rules and simply report the information found by the measurements to the bass management system.


In situations where the speakers do not play significantly below 80 Hz, an additional step must be taken to make sure that there is no loss of bass information. The user must set the speaker to Small manually so that bass management is performed properly.


Polarity: MultEQ checks the absolute polarity of each loudspeaker and reports it to the user. This is simply a report and does not affect the subsequent calculations in any way. It just asks you to check the wiring to make sure it is connected properly to each speaker. Sometimes we get false alarms. This is usually because the speaker has a driver (usually the mid-range driver) wired out-of-phase intentionally to make up for some problems at the crossover region. If a phase warning is shown, it is not a cause of alarm. Simply check the cables and hit Skip if everything is fine. Again, this does not have any effect on the EQ results.


Subwoofer distance: in many active subwoofers it is not possible to defeat the low-pass filtering. That means that the pre-pro bass management filters will be on top of the low-pass filters inside the subwoofer. The built-in low-filters introduce a delay to the signal coming in (because they have poles). This delay is seen by MultEQ as acoustical delay and is reported in the results. That is why sometimes the subwoofer distance is reported to be longer than the physical measured distance. The setting should not be changed because the blend between the sub and the satellites has been designed based on this time delay.


The design constraints for MultEQ were that it (1) must fit within a small portion of the DSP so that other processes can also run and (2) it must use FIR filters because of the well-known artifacts that IIR filters cause particularly in the time domain response. As it turns out, these two requirements are contradicting. In order for FIR filters to be effective and capable of correcting to low frequencies, they must consist of several thousand coefficients (taps). The problem is that the CPU power required increases with the number of taps, hence the dilemma. What we did at Audyssey was to come up with a different way to partition the frequency axis so that we can use fewer taps and yet not completely give up on low frequency resolution (and therefore low frequency correction). This allows us to take a 512 tap filter that would normally have a resolution of 94 Hz (meaning that any peak or dip narrower than 94 Hz would be missed) and significantly improve its resolving power. The resolution of the filter actually varies continuously with frequency and starts at around 10 Hz. Does this mean that MultEQ can correct an arbitrarily narrow peak or dip at 30 Hz? Of course not. The reality is that in the MultEQ XT version found in receivers, we can correct broader features below 100 Hz better than narrow ones. For example, a lump that is half an octave wide at 50 Hz can be fixed. A narrow dip or peak that is 1/3 or 1/6 octaves wide and centered at 30 Hz will be improved, but not eliminated.


The on-screen display in the receiver has very limited graphics. Therefore it is not possible to really show what the MultEQ correction filter is doing at all frequencies. It appears to only be operating on 9 bands like a parametric equalizer, but this is not the case. What is shown is a very crude approximation to the MultEQ correction and it should not be used to read exact values of cut or boost at the 9 frequencies shown.


Furthermore, there is no display for the subwoofer filter. This doesn't mean that there is no subwoofer correction. It was not added to the display because of interface and memory considerations.


(tips by Chris, CTO, Audyssey Laboratories)
 
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#38,261 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by counsil /forum/post/20148729


Perfect. Now I understand. All your satellites are reading 72dB. That's perfect. Mine do too. Your subs are reading 65dB EACH. Add them up (65dB + 4/6dB) and you get 69/71dB. Now account for RS SPL meters reading 2/3 dB low for subs and you're at 71/73 or 72/74 dB for your subs. Perfect again.


Enjoy!!!

I got the Galaxy from Herb. Its great. I noticed that it was reading all my speakers at 73db and each sub at 65db. At least now, I can feel good that the spl meter is reading right.
 
#38,262 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by nitekrawler /forum/post/20201614


...After running the Audyssey setup and following the guide posted in the forum - everything sounds sooo much better; however, now it shows DLII instead of Stereo when I'm watching TV - is that bad? Am I losing anything? Thanks in advance!

nitekrawler

Hi, welcome. Congrats on a nice HT upgrade. This issue actually has nothing to do with Audyssey so is more topical in the 591 thread. All the settings in the AVR are ignored during autosetup, don't worry. You are now getting Dolby PLII because you have pressed the std button. Again don't worry, you are losing nothing, just expanding the sound to more channels. You can get stereo again by just pushing the stereo/direct button. See batpig's guide here for more info, scroll down to Q3 "What is the best surround mode to use?"
 
#38,263 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe /forum/post/20202623


And in that vein, Darin's correct in that they do not have to do that. I just don't see the point in not doing it.

I'll admit to complete ignorance (well pretty much) but there's a fairly profound difference between the typical satellite that you're trying to blend with a sub and fiddling with levels at the lower margins in an active device. Particularly note the point that it's difficult to reliably measure subsonic response. I think this is still correct (based on my own observation of chronic subsonics in my AV "room") even though the Chris quotes are a bit dated.
 
#38,264 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge /forum/post/20198794


Just to put some more pertinent data out there in support of finding a solution to what appears to be a problem with the bass levels I'm getting, below are graphs that show the AVERAGE response of 6 mic positions all taken in the same locations that I placed the mic to calibrate Audyssey.


The overall bass level dropped by roughly 3dB, but it is still elevated by what appears to be 5dB on average.

Right speaker + sub, 6 mic position average (there is 1/6th octave smoothing on these even though it says there is none)


Left speaker + sub


Both graphs overlayed



Just get everything out on the table, my 6 mic positions are:


1. MLP (at the backrest of the couch)

2. 1.5 feet to the right of the MLP

3. 1.5 feet to the left of the MLP

4. 1.5 feet to the left of the MLP + 2 feet forward (front edge of couch)

5. 2 feet forward of the MLP

6. 1.5 feet to the right of the MLP + 2 feet forward


I also had a problem with my AVR in which it was not applying EQ to the sub channel (after a faulty firmware update), which was corrected with a subsequent firmware update. It is obvious now (through REW measurements) that the sub FR is improved with Audyssey ON, but it could be possible that there is still some error in how the AVR is calibrating the sub channel. I don't want to jump to that conclusion until we rule out other possible causes though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 /forum/post/20198866


hifisponge, can you show a graph for left+sub and right+sub with all 6 single responses overlaid?

Right speaker + sub (6 measurements)



Left speaker + sub (6 measurements)



Why did you want these BTW?
 
#38,265 ·
Does anyone know how the tone controls work with Audyssey? I have tone controls for the "fronts", "center", and the "surrounds" on my Integra 80.2. They are adjustable in 2 db increments. There is a two seperate controls called "bass" and treble". I read that bass is 500 hz and treble is 20 khz....that was for an older Onkyo. Do we know how those change the frequency response? Is it a spike of 2 db at the given frequency that tapers in either direction? The Audyssey and DEQ lights remain lit when I adjust these, so I Audyssey is still at work.
 
#38,266 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by gamelover360 /forum/post/20204572


Does anyone know how the tone controls work with Audyssey? I have tone controls for the "fronts", "center", and the "surrounds" on my Integra 80.2. They are adjustable in 2 db increments. There is a two seperate controls called "bass" and treble". I read that bass is 500 hz and treble is 20 khz....that was for an older Onkyo. Do we know how those change the frequency response? Is it a spike of 2 db at the given frequency that tapers in either direction? The Audyssey and DEQ lights remain lit when I adjust these, so I Audyssey is still at work.

The effect of the tone controls is set by the manufacturer of the AVR / prepro, and the shape of the shelf filter depends on the "knee" point that the manufacturer choses, but most bass controls start at 100 Hz and treble at 1KHz.


Like this:


Bass



Treble


These were taken from the manual of a Lexicon processor, but it is my understanding that these sorts of tone control curves are fairly standard. You could always use something like REW to take a line-level reading of the output of the Onkyo to see exactly what is happening.
 
#38,267 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by gamelover360 /forum/post/20204572


Does anyone know how the tone controls work with Audyssey? I have tone controls for the "fronts", "center", and the "surrounds" on my Integra 80.2. They are adjustable in 2 db increments. There is a two seperate controls called "bass" and treble". I read that bass is 500 hz and treble is 20 khz....that was for an older Onkyo. Do we know how those change the frequency response? Is it a spike of 2 db at the given frequency that tapers in either direction? The Audyssey and DEQ lights remain lit when I adjust these, so I Audyssey is still at work.

It is 50Hz and 20Khz and yes, you can apply them on top of MultEQ XT, Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume.

You can adjust (-10 dB to +10 dB in 2 dB steps) Treble and Bass for all speakers as well as the Bass for the subwoofer(s) for all listening modes except when the Direct, Pure Audio or a THX listening mode is selected.
 
#38,268 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge /forum/post/20204522


Why did you want these BTW?

I was hoping to see something that could explain the rising low frequency level but there's nothing suspicious.


You said that you see a similar behavior with a different setup? First step would be to rule out that there's something wrong with your measuring equipment. Does a loopback measurement come out flat?

What does a nearfield measurement (place mic a few millimeters from the cone) of your sub look like?

What mic do you use? Can you post the calibration file?

You shoudl also check the noise floor in your room with the spectrum analyzer. How noisy is it?
 
#38,269 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickardl /forum/post/20204614


It is 50Hz and 20Khz and yes, you can apply them on top of MultEQ XT, Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume.

You can adjust (-10 dB to +10 dB in 2 dB steps) Treble and Bass for all speakers as well as the Bass for the subwoofer(s) for all listening modes except when the Direct, Pure Audio or a THX listening mode is selected.

If I set it to +2 for bass on the fronts, center, and surrounds.......wouldn't that just be passed to the subwoofer since I use an 80hz crossover? I think with an 80 hz crossover the satellites are 24 db down at 40 hz. So maybe they are 20 db down at 50 hz. Does this +2 boost to the satellites make them only 18 db down at 50 hz, or what? Thanks. Seems weird that they would have a +2 boost of satellites make it's way to the subwoofer via the crossover point. I would hope they just apply a 2 db boost to whatever is fed to the satellites depending on your crossover settings. They also have a seperate subwoofer tone control, so this is´why I think this way.
 
#38,270 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom /forum/post/20204302


I'll admit to complete ignorance (well pretty much) but there's a fairly profound difference between the typical satellite that you're trying to blend with a sub and fiddling with levels at the lower margins in an active device. Particularly note the point that it's difficult to reliably measure subsonic response.


I think this is correct (based on my own observation of chronic subsonics in my AV "room" even though the Chris quotes are a bit dated.

Well I don't claim to have all the answers either and I certainly agree with your distinction and never intended to make a precise parallel between the two (satellites and subs).


And again, I suppose I don't EXPECT Audyssey to insert an HPF, I guess I just was wondering aloud why they do not, again, say around the minus 5, 7, or 10db point of the sub? Or at least make it defeatable/available. I understand this doesn't apply to the majority, it'd just be a nice touch, imo.



I'd be interested to hear the drawbacks of such a feature, especially considering that a decent sum looking into high end apps of Audyssey XT 32 may very well have passive subs and amps that are not so easily configured to accomplish the goal.


Just a thought at this point.


Happy Friday!


James
 
#38,271 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe /forum/post/20204911



I'd be interested to hear the drawbacks of such a feature, especially considering that a decent sum looking into high end apps of Audyssey XT 32 may very well have passive subs and amps that are not so easily configured to accomplish the goal.

If they put in a HPF to protect your sub and your sub gets toasted, you blame them. If they don't put in a HPF to protect your sub and your sub gets toasted, all you can do is rant.



Happy Friday to you, too. Next question, p l e a s e.


Jeff
 
#38,272 ·
Hi -


I found that the MultEQ does indeed work without a dedicated center channel in the system (I run a phantom center setup where the front L&R channels handle that information). Thanks for the responses that pointed this out. However, Audyssey DSX will not. Apparently, according to Audyssey, this is because of the particular algorithm used for their DSX program. I wonder if there is a chance that there may be a SW update to change this in the future. After all, Dolby and DTS do not require a center front speaker be present to synthesize surround channel information.


Btw, when I ran the MultEQ setup last night with my current speaker setup which currently includes fronts, front wides and side speakers, I found that it restricted bandwidth for the front wides and sides (to 40 and 50hz) even though I had set them all to full range. Is there any way to force MultEQ to treat all surround speakers as unrestricted full range? If I could get some EQ boost between 20 and 40 hz at the sides as well as the fronts (they are all the same speakers in my setup), that would definitely lend some authority to the low bass and maybe I could dispense with subs while still getting some pretty decent low end SPL. After all, when I get all 8 speakers set up (still finishing the last two), I'll have as much air moving capability altogether as two 15" woofers.
 
#38,273 ·
OK, here's one....

Does the majority of "critical listeners" here disable DynEQ for music, while enabling it for movies?
 
#38,274 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe /forum/post/20204911


I'd be interested to hear the drawbacks of such a feature

As mentioned a couple of times there's the potential liability if the feature is advertised as a safety device. Historically those things live in the amplifier that's doing the work but I don't recall that (back in the day) they were sold exactly as speaker protection. Now liability may not be an issue if the filter isn't sold as a protective circuit.


As well every added knob generates a thousand new questions on AVS some of which would filter out to Audyssey or the OEM. You'd expect such a feature to be on by default but that might interact poorly with the controls (particularly the rumble filter) on my sub. Hence more support calls.


The set of people that would need or use such a feature probably don't justify the added cost to Audyssey and the OEMs.


Or not.
 
#38,276 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdawson /forum/post/20206588


Hi -


I found that the MultEQ does indeed work without a dedicated center channel in the system (I run a phantom center setup where the front L&R channels handle that information). Thanks for the responses that pointed this out. However, Audyssey DSX will not.

DSX requires 5.1. You can use a listening mode to derive 5.1 from "lesser" content before applying DSX.
 
#38,277 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom /forum/post/20206819


What's a critical listener and who speaks for the majority of them?


Personally my usage of Audyssey features is (overy) complex.

Someone more adept at listening for correctly presented music reproduction than myself.

Don't know who could represent them...maybe you???



Not trying to turn the question in to a larger discussion...


So, do ya like it on or off?
 
#38,278 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by fotto /forum/post/20206908


Someone more adept at listening for correctly presented music reproduction than myself.

Don't know who could represent them...maybe you???



Not trying to turn the question in to a larger discussion...


So, do ya like it on or off?

I don't have it.



But most posts that I read say it is left on for everything.
 
#38,279 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by fotto /forum/post/20206611


....Does the majority of "critical listeners" here disable DynEQ for music, while enabling it for movies?

Speaking for myself, IMO DEQ adds considerable SQ to critical listening of music below reference levels. But most music content is not standardized to film soundtrack level, so a dynamic level offset of 10 to15 is recommended to keep the bass level from being excessively boosted.
 
#38,280 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdawson /forum/post/20206588


Hi -


Btw, when I ran the MultEQ setup last night with my current speaker setup which currently includes fronts, front wides and side speakers, I found that it restricted bandwidth for the front wides and sides (to 40 and 50hz) even though I had set them all to full range. Is there any way to force MultEQ to treat all surround speakers as unrestricted full range? If I could get some EQ boost between 20 and 40 hz at the sides as well as the fronts (they are all the same speakers in my setup), that would definitely lend some authority to the low bass and maybe I could dispense with subs while still getting some pretty decent low end SPL. After all, when I get all 8 speakers set up (still finishing the last two), I'll have as much air moving capability altogether as two 15" woofers.

The answers to your questions are in the Audyssey setup guide, linked in Pepar's sig just above your post. A most worthwhile read.


Audyssey does not set crossovers. Your receiver does. Audyssey measures the speakers' in room response. It ignores all settings in doing so. Then it reports the measured -3dB frequency extension of your speakers to the receiver, which uses its own logic to set large/small/crossover. Nothing stops you from going back and changing things. But you should be aware that Audyssey will not correct FR anomalies below the measured -3 dB point. Up to you . . . but how your speakers measure in your room is really how they measure, and IMO specs to the contrary cease to be of great importance if the actual in room FR differs for whatever reason.
 
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